Here is my understanding of your question about effort. I acknowledge that my understanding may be different from your or other persons' beliefs, but hey, we all have our freedom, don't we?

We worship God in spirit & truth. So, our knowledge of God and His ways must come via the spirit, not the physical. Since we cannot see our spirit or any spirits in our physical state, we have to come to the conclusion that our learning of Christ cannot be a physical process, it must be a mental undertaking. What we think is what we say, do, treat others ect.

To *do* the things that Christ encourages us to do, we must first have our mental attitude in order. For us to be able to act like Christ, we must 1st think like Christ.

So, how do we begin to think like Christ? The Bible is our guide. We must have a good understanding of God's word. When we replace our depraved thought process with the thinking of Christ, it is no *effort* at all to *do* & *act* as Christ, it's automatic.

We are told to put on the new man, & to be transformed by renewing our minds. When we obey these commanments, the fruit of the spirit & the good works are an automatic bye-product & require no effort.

Where the effort is a factor is the constant struggle to humble ourselves to gain God's knowledge through good Bible study. We all know that the devil tries (and succeeds) to distract us by any & all means possible from being the servant that God wants us to be.

We shouldn't be putting the cart before the horse. We do not need to be trying to gain God's approval or acceptance by physical works. We must 1st take the time to learn how to please God in the spirit. The physical deeds come later, and are irrelevant to our salvation.

Sorry if this has been said above already.

I must check!

The way of salvation is not how we get salvation. That's been got for ALL humanity, for all of creation for all time.

At least in this universe ...

Whether we know about it or even want it.

Obviously very few won't want it, very few will reject it in the resurrection, but the possibility for that first and last exercise of freewill (otherwise a non-Biblical Christian myth) has to be acknowledged - that some will be adversarial to love, have too much sympathy for the Devil.

What I fear is that some of us will be embittered by God's grace, will go off him for melting the hearts of the vast majority of non-Christian humanity after their deaths.

The vast majority of the resurrected will want to stay in Paradise with the thief on the cross, the irrelevant transition of death can't possibly disqualify them.

The way of salvation is what we do with what we know.

Universal salvation?

Christ has indeed provided salvation for ALL humanity. Salvation does depend on what each human thinks of Christ. This I agree with.

But, what are you talking about when you say "after the resurrection"?

The Bible decalres, in many passages about the dead being in Hell.

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Originally posted by Kelly:
We must 1st take the time to learn how to please God in the spirit. The physical deeds come later, and are irrelevant to our salvation.

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I agree that we need to first take time to learn. But if we can't do anything how can we even do that? Isn't that one of the irrelevant good deeds?

How is it possible that the decision to lie, cheat, mistreat others, or be a slacker at work is irrelevant to your spiritual life?

Why not obey Jesus? How could disobeying Him be unimportant?

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Originally posted by Will:
Why should I have any doubt of my salvation if G-d is interacting with me on a personal level?

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I think the question is whether or not you love the things of heaven. In heaven people love God and other people. The joy of their life is in serving others. They do not love adultery, theft, lying, etc. or place their happiness in self-aggrandisement, honors, material possessions.

Is this your idea of happiness?

The question is, how do you know for sure? It is not easy to know yourself, or to be sure of what you really want.

It seems as though we have somehow gotten off of the subject, which is salvation, & what it takes to be saved.

I, by no means, meant to insinuate that lieing, cheating & stealing didn't have anything to do with our spiritual life. And I don't think I did insinuate that either. Our physical behaviour is a reflection of how much of Christ's thinking we have learned.

The decision to believe in Christ is all that is required for salvation. The constant struggle to live the christian life, and continue to learn all we can about Christ, so that we may produce good works and be a useful servant involves many decisions.

Many people get confused and put the cart before the horse by trying to act in a good way, and do certain good things & substitute their good works for trusting in Christ and they are never saved because they trusted in their own goodness and not Christ's sacrifice.

Christians are commanded to do good works, I agree, but we aren't commanded to do good works for salvation or to keep our salvation. We believe in Christ for eternal life.

Will,

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Originally posted by Kelly:
[QB]Freddy,

Many people get confused and put the cart before the horse by trying to act in a good way, and do certain good things & substitute their good works for trusting in Christ and they are never saved because they trusted in their own goodness and not Christ's sacrifice.

Christians are commanded to do good works, I agree, but we aren't commanded to do good works for salvation or to keep our salvation. We believe in Christ for eternal life.
QB]

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Kelly,

Jim's original question (and previous threads) made the unspoken assumption that most or all Christians other than those who are members of his church believe that they are saved by works. When they pointed out that this was not the case, he didn't believe them. That it what got up everyone's nose.

My analysis is that he tried to compartmentalise the faith into a sort of painting-by-numbers thing, where God could be understood so long as one's Bible doctrine was sound. That can so easily lead to pride - and a desire to put everyone else right, according to our own understanding.

I try to remember that 'God's thoughts are higher than my thoughts' and, as the Bible says, I will only see 'as through a glass darkly' while I remain on Earth. And so I read and learn, and post when I think I have something to contribute. And hopefully have sufficient humility to accept that on occasions I may be wrong.

YIC

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Originally posted by Kelly:
Many people get confused and put the cart before the horse by trying to act in a good way, and do certain good things & substitute their good works for trusting in Christ and they are never saved because they trusted in their own goodness...

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Originally posted by Will:

G-d has answered prayers in my life many times.
G-d has healed a cousin of mine of something medicine could not - through prayer.
I am sometimes "filled" with the presence of G-d while in prayer.
Why should I have any doubt of my salvation if G-d is interacting with me on a personal level?

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