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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: P**d off with God
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Fishface
Apprentice
# 2206
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Posted
Nanny ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg:
But – and this is the really painful bit – I feel that God isn’t letting go of me and I’ve nowhere to run. All I can do is get angry whilst I wait for things to change. And that hurts because I then have no freedom to live. If I felt that I had responsibility for my life I could blame myself for all that goes wrong and I would probably feel that I should ask God for forgiveness. The way it stands at the moment I'm a victim of continued circumstance created by others.[/QB]
Nanny, when life is as sh1t as you descibe it to be, when your heart is filled with anger and pain, you are crushed and powerless, that you say God is hanging on to you stirs a faint flicker of hope for me. When i feel like this the only thing i can hang onto is that it[all this faith stuff]has to be a Footprints thing.He has to be there with us or all of this is crap.I don't get why we have to suffer, intellectualy or spiritually. All I can hang onto is that in my bleakest most desperate moments of pain, if i can dare to think of God, He has provided me with Peace and rest.Through people and in solitude. If nothing else is possible is peace not the greatest gift, the essence of God?
When we roar and wail at God why does he not just give us the antidote to anger? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) why do we have to ask for it?
NO placation intended, just my contribution to the torment
Posts: 47 | From: in the asylum | Registered: Jan 2002
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ChrisT
One of the Good Guys™
# 62
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Posted
This is turning out like one or two other threads. To be honest i know very much how Nanny feels, and the niceties just don't wash when there isn't even a glimmer of hope. And although it is nice to say that the anger must end at some point, and we all know that's true, when the situation isn't ending in any way shape or form, how can the anger. Basically we are being asked to stop being angry and upset, and accept whatever comes our way. That, a lot of the time at least, isn't enough for me.
Like Nanny said, after a while we just want results. No more promises, no more platitudes, no more caring and wan smiles. We just want the crap to end.
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Firmly on dry land
Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
I have to admit that I have trouble personally with the idea of being angry at God. I pretty much expect God to act in a way that seems counterintuitive, and God seems to have made it pretty clear that he will let bad and ugly things happen to us. Part of that, I suppose, is growing up with a low-functioning autistic brother, and part of that is having my mind warped by Douglas Adams novels presenting an absurd universe where the riddle to life, the universe, and everything is bad arithmetic. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I guess if you don't expect much from God, it's hard for him to let you down.
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Nanny, I'm similarly tortured, and have the same questions. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
McChicken, liked your poem.
Re anger in general: Feelings Aren't Bad. What you do with them may or may not be.
Fishface, I get what you mean about being helped through peace--but what do you do when it doesn't come?
JJR, I like Doug Adams' books, too. "42" has gotten me through a lot of rough times, as has the answer that Arthur & Fennie finally found.
But things can get to the point where more and more of you is (metaphorically) chopped off, nothing you do to help yourself works, and you can't get anyone to help. It's crushing. It's where I am--and have been for some time. And, I think, it's hard to understand if you haven't been there. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
When I first read it, I thought the Book of Job to be one of the harshest things I had ever read, despite the beauty of the writing. In effect, Job is brought low as a result of a capricious bet between God and Satan. Finally, Job, who has suffered undeservedly,while the undeserving have flourished, is angry with God. So he says to God "Explain yourself! Why me?" And the answer, uncompromising in its bluntness, comes back: You're not God, you don't know what I know and you haven't done what I have done.
And there is the hard truth - no platitudes. Bad things happen to good people for reasons we can't understand. We are told things we don't want to hear and suffer accordingly. We are rejected by those we love. We suffer misfortunes - not once but time after time. We don't deserve it, but still it happens.
We don't have the full picture, we don't know what God knows. It's human to get angry with those who hurt us, whether that comes by deliberate act or not. It's human to demand recompense for our hurts or at least an explanation - including from God.
But we'd better be prepared for the answer - the loving answer - that we don't want to hear. No. Not yet. Never. Wait.
And then we have to trust that answer and trust that there will be a way forward. That trust has to be the hardest thing I know of. I struggle with it. I usually fail. The alternative is worse - that the universe is a random, evil place run by a malevolent bastard for His own ends and no-one cares. I don't believe that and so I continue to struggle with trust. Love and trust - what else is there?
Right now, it hurts and in our pain we are angry. Anger, as ChrisT rightly observed, is empowering and intoxicating. It is also addictive, it diverts our energies and distorts our perceptions. So recognise it and let go of it, when and if you can.
So - onwards. I admire your candour, insight and honesty with your emotions, ChrisT, golden key and Nanny Ogg. It's going to carry you through - hard though it is.
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Part of the problem with platitludes is that they are probably a result of distance. if I were in a room with Chris, Nanny, and GK, then I would shut the hell up, hold their hands, and cry with them. My mouth woulnd't do a damn bit of good.My prescence, my tears,my hugs might just bring god into the room, but my big mouth would just get me in trouble.
but in print someone can't see the care on your face, or feel your hand. so you grope around for words to make them "Feel Better". Or give them a ten-point program for adjusting their attitude. The result--no offense, anyone--usually sucks.
So, Karin--do you have some thoughts about my earlier question? When a Christian is faced with someone's anger at God, What is the response?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Part of the problem with platitludes is that they are probably a result of distance. if I were in a room with Chris, Nanny, and GK, then I would shut the hell up, hold their hands, and cry with them. My mouth woulnd't do a damn bit of good.My prescence, my tears,my hugs might just bring god into the room, but my big mouth would just get me in trouble.
(hug) ![[Love]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Kelly ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Any interest in being pope, Kelly? I'll nominate you right now!!!
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mother hubbard
Shipmate
# 640
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Posted
kelly, if you don;t mind can i offer a response to your question?
I was standing in the playground waiting for eh kids to come out of school one day. Just minding my own business, waiting for the kids. A woman came literally screaming down the path, lunged at me, grabbed my by the neck and began shaking me and yelling in my face. ‘where’s your F****** God NOW! How can you believe in a god who let’s this happen ….’
You can finish the conversation yourself I expect. I was non-plussed at this totally unprovoked attack, and was shaken even more as several other people joined her, similarly screaming in my face, poking and pushing. It took several minutes before I could make any sense of it at all.
Apparently some deranged person had just broken into a school playground and opened fire on the kids. The first lady to approach me had relatives who lived in a small place called Dunblane.
What did I do with their anger at God? I agreed with them. I even joined in with their anger. Why? Because I thought they had a valid point. And there was no explanation that would make sense of it.
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you realise, of course, that now i;ve posted on youir thread, it will automatically sink without a trace?
Posts: 293 | From: essex | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
I think both Kelly and mother hubbard have valid points to make. Years ago, when I was a brand new chaplain, a tragic death occurred in the hospital. I went in, shaking, to the family and said "This is horrible. You must be terribly sad and bloody angry at God." They shouted back "Yes". And that was all we said for 30 mins- I could think of nothing valid to say next, and they cried. Thankfully for us all. Anger expressed... then presence . Years later they met me somehow and thanked me for the wise words of wisdom and love I had given them that night. Whilst grateful for their appreciation, I had to smile inwardly. I think, that in order to make sense of the encounter, in a conventional usual way of Western relationships and "normal" counselling methods, they had remembered words and speaking whilst I knew there was emotion, silence and just being there. And this came from 2 things- my feelings of "not knowing what to say next" and God's using the encounter.
That has been my philosophy as a chaplain ever since. Use descriptive words, and let them rant and moan. Then just shut up and be there for them. Emotion, silence and just being there.
Actually, it is pretty useful for my friends too when they are stressed out by life and God.
I'm not a great chaplain, but I'm learning every day.
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
Kelly, I joined this thread because Chris was asking what people thought about being angry with God. So I have said that I think it's OK and it's good to express our feelings and be honest with God, but I have reservations about calling him names and giving him verbal abuse. On the other hand I don't think anyone needs to be wracked with guilt if they do so. It is simply a matter of saying sorry at some point in time (once they've stopped feeling so angry). I also said there were dangers in letting your anger get the better of you. I was answering Chris' question, but I am not suggesting I have all the answers. I have learnt to "treasure the questions" recently. I no longer need to know all the answers, I can appreciate that there are some things only God knows the answer to.
However, in answer to your question quote:
When a Christian is faced with someone's anger at God, What is the response?
Kelly, I don't know. I think sitting quietly with them would be a good start.
I find such an attitude very hard to understand and so to deal with because I am more likely to take blame on myself and probably wallow in self-pity (which is equally dangerous) than rant and rave at God in quite that way. I have told him I don't understand him and I don't like his ways, but I wouldn't call him names and I don't swear anyway. In the past I have felt he let bad things happen to me to punish me, but having found that the experience of a stillborn child made me take my faith much more seriously and my deepened faith has brought me great joy and comfort over the years, I now think it is more likely that God lets me go through bad times in order to teach me valuable lessons.
Events of the last two years have meant that I have struggled in many ways over that time, but they brought me to a place where I could realise just how arrogant a certain way of thinking had made me. I have come to take a good hard look at just what I believed and at just how much of what I have been taught is essential to following Christ. This in turn has encouraged me to take a lot less notice of what others expect from me. I have found the courage to be myself in Christ. It has been a rocky path, I have been on the brink of despair, I have experienced despondency and depression, but through it all Christ was calling me onward and upward and I feel more at peace with myself and with God than I ever have. He has brought people into my life to encourage me and even inspire me. I have found in reaching out to others I have received more than I have given.
That has been my experience. I appreciate others will have had different experiences and so they will see God differently from the way I do. I am not suggesting my way of seeing things is right, or is the only way, but I am setting it out in case anyone should find it helpful.
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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Nanny Ogg
Ship's cushion
# 1176
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
When I first read it, I thought the Book of Job to be one of the harshest things I had ever read, despite the beauty of the writing. In effect, Job is brought low as a result of a capricious bet between God and Satan. Finally, Job, who has suffered undeservedly,while the undeserving have flourished, is angry with God. So he says to God "Explain yourself! Why me?" And the answer, uncompromising in its bluntness, comes back: You're not God, you don't know what I know and you haven't done what I have done.
There it is - THAT book again.
It's amazing that whenever anyone mentions suffering Job is wheeled out by Christians in an attempt to put things into a Godly perspective - often without thinking that it does more damage than it's worth. When you are hurting the last thing you want is to be told "read Job". That book is best read after painful situations when you are able to put things into some sort of perspective as to what was happening at the time.
It is a mistake to throw that book at people who hurt at present because they want people to understand their real pain not try to rationalise or explain it.
quote:
We don't have the full picture, we don't know what God knows. It's human to get angry with those who hurt us, whether that comes by deliberate act or not. It's human to demand recompense for our hurts or at least an explanation - including from God.
True we don't know what God knows but surely a loving God would want to ease out pain not increase it.
Why does God allow people to lurch from one crisis to another without any break or recovery time?
Why do some Christians live such favoured lives? Surely all Christians should be blessed by God.
quote:
But we'd better be prepared for the answer - the loving answer - that we don't want to hear. No. Not yet. Never. Wait.
And then we have to trust that answer and trust that there will be a way forward. That trust has to be the hardest thing I know of. I struggle with it. I usually fail. The alternative is worse - that the universe is a random, evil place run by a malevolent bastard for His own ends and no-one cares. I don't believe that and so I continue to struggle with trust. Love and trust - what else is there?
So what happens when you cannot trust? Trust is difficult to do when it is because you trusted that your life is in a mess. Because you trusted God to help you through and yet prayers are unanswered and situations worsen. Or because you have been hurt by family and friends you trusted.
Trust has to be earned not demanded. If trust is broken the ability to do so again is damaged.
Survivors learn to trust themselves and their instincts because they have no-one left to trust. They need to be in control because do much of their lives have been out of their control.
To ask a survivor to trust anyone - let alone a supernatural entity - and place their lives in the control of someone or something else in the expectation that life will be better is asking them to go against their survival instincts which they have built up over the years.
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Buy me a beer and I'm you friend forever
Posts: 4137 | From: Away with the fairies | Registered: Aug 2001
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
Just as an aside, and coming from a slightly different angle, Nanny, I have found it helpful to read Job when I've been down, but not because I found any answers in it. I just found it helpful to know that someone had felt as bad as me and worse. It helped me express what I felt and I tend to be helped by examples of people worse off than me.
Thinking of people who are worse off, I wonder what you think of God's attitudes to Christians in the Third World when you say: "Why do some Christians live such favoured lives? Surely all Christians should be blessed by God."
What do you think of God's attitude to those Christians who watch their children die through lack of water, food or medicine etc??
Please don't take it as a criticism, I'm just interested to know how you square those two thoughts.
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
Karin 3, I hope I've got your name right.
I am interested that in repeating your comments, you are not using the word "should" now. Whether you do or not is up to you, not for me to say you "should" or not! I think you understood my concern, I sometimes use the word myself, I just (personally) think it has shaming overtones, and it is better, though not a demand, that it not be used.
I have enjoyed many of your comments though.
So many comments here, thanks everybody for their honesty, and their contributions, even if there are different outlooks.
Life is painful, miserable, agonising, cruel, fun, joyous, exciting, loving, hateful, there is war and there is peace. Some people seem to have good lives, others suffer extremes.
And one of the tools we have to deal with this are our emotions, "ernergy in motion" as I heard it called, real physiological reactions which tell ourselves and others how it feels, and sometimes change how we behave or our situations. We can laugh, enjoy, be sad, grieve, be angry, desire/yearn, be jealous or whatever. these are God given. They can all be addictive, do we not recognise the person who has a smile on their face whatever happens, increasingly in denial. Why have we only identified anger as addicitve in this thread so far. Some are love addicts, permanently believing that they have a certain emotion, when that actually covers other feelings.
So anger, if held on to for ever, increasing without cause, as a "Right" etc, can be dangerous. But if it's the genuine human emotion to a situation, where someone you trust has betrayed you, where a Fascitic government brutalises a people or whatever, how can it be wrong.
Some of us will swear, others will not. Personally, I swear at God, but currently expect to move on from that to more trust, perhaps I am wrong or this is not another person's experience.
I do not believe God ever promised us our lives were going to be brilliant, or that blessing was permanent happiness, loving relationships or wealth. Christians who preach this do damage in my opinion. How did our God act in the world- by sending His Son who Died on a cross.
The resurrection changes that, but the risen Christ bears the scars of the nails and the sword. I don't understand why we suffer, but I do believe God is with us, and is so much bigger than all of us put together that he can take our anger, just as he takes our love, humour, yearning, grief, or jealousy.
And we either believe it or not. Goodness only knows why someties!
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg:
True we don't know what God knows but surely a loving God would want to ease out pain not increase it.
The fact that we don't know what God knows is the very reason that we can't be sure that God "would want to ease out pain not increase it," even if he is loving. God could very well have reasons for all the ugly, abominable things that happen, reasons that make perfect sense to him yet are impossible to articulate to finite minds like ours.
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by golden key:
Any interest in being pope, Kelly? I'll nominate you right now!!!
HELL NO.
I'll translate that into Latin, If you wish.
Karin, sorry if my post seemed to land on you a little. I guess I was subconciously being overprotective of Nanny. Nanny, if I was out of line jumping in, I apologise to you too.
But the question of how to deal with people's anger at God is important to me,maybe even worth it's own thread and one I wonder if churches really discuss or prepare people for.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Karin, sorry if my post seemed to land on you a little. I guess I was subconciously being overprotective of Nanny.
But the question of how to deal with people's anger at God is important to me,maybe even worth it's own thread and one I wonder if churches really discuss or prepare people for.
Apology accepted, Kelly - like your new avatar, btw.
I think you make a good point about churches needing to address people's anger more, whether at God or at other people. Forgiveness is vital, but before a person can forgive they need to work through their anger. Teaching constructive ways to channel anger at God could be another good idea.
Of course if certain Christians/branches of the church were more open to honest questions in general that would be even better.
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg:
It's amazing that whenever anyone mentions suffering Job is wheeled out by Christians in an attempt to put things into a Godly perspective - often without thinking that it does more damage than it's worth. When you are hurting the last thing you want is to be told "read Job". That book is best read after painful situations when you are able to put things into some sort of perspective as to what was happening at the time.
It is a mistake to throw that book at people who hurt at present because they want people to understand their real pain not try to rationalise or explain it.
At the risk of dropping myself further in it, that was precisely the context in which I first read Job. I was recovering from, not cured of, serious illness. I had lost my job and apparently my legal career. You're right to say that I was looking back on the worst of my suffering and putting it in context - but the effects of that suffering were very much with me. I found it harsh but peversely comforting that there was a wider picture that I couldn't see. The alternative was to believe that I had been picked out for suffering for no good reason by a "loving" God who wanted to visit some punishment on me for - I don't know - hubris, maybe.
One result of my illness was that I returned to Christianity, after many years of unbelief. Did I need that sort of a belting to do so? Having made the decision to believe again, my reaction was anger:"How could you do this to me, if you love me and want the best for me?"
You are also right to say Job isn't for everybody. The nun who took me for RCIA understood that I needed to step beyond my anger and suffering, to make sense of it in order to let it go.
You're angry with God. I don't know your personal circumstances - but I accept your absolute right to be angry with God for what has happened to you. I don't have Kelly Alves' gift of being able to say the right thing - and how wonderfully she said it! But then I also thought that karin3 said something profound, that was not a platitude, in talking of God's presence in our suffering. Several other posters talked of sitting quietly with those who are angry with God and allowing them to find a resolution for that anger.
I believe anger to be destructive. If we are to restore our relationships with others and especially with God, we must confront its source. So I said:
quote:
We don't have the full picture, we don't know what God knows. It's human to get angry with those who hurt us, whether that comes by deliberate act or not. It's human to demand recompense for our hurts or at least an explanation - including from God.
Your reply was just. quote:
True we don't know what God knows but surely a loving God would want to ease out pain not increase it.
Why does God allow people to lurch from one crisis to another without any break or recovery time?
Why do some Christians live such favoured lives? Surely all Christians should be blessed by God.
To which, I can only say that I don't know, as I am not God. All the rest of us can do is to offer our love and our support to those who are hurting and give them time to heal themselves.
Accuse me of insensivity by all means - but sometimes that love and support may need to be expressed bluntly and truthfully. This is what I had to learn:
quote:
But we'd better be prepared for the answer - the loving answer - that we don't want to hear. No. Not yet. Never. Wait.
And then we have to trust that answer and trust that there will be a way forward. That trust has to be the hardest thing I know of. I struggle with it. I usually fail. The alternative is worse - that the universe is a random, evil place run by a malevolent bastard for His own ends and no-one cares. I don't believe that and so I continue to struggle with trust. Love and trust - what else is there?
Again, your reply was just but difficult. quote:
So what happens when you cannot trust? Trust is difficult to do when it is because you trusted that your life is in a mess. Because you trusted God to help you through and yet prayers are unanswered and situations worsen. Or because you have been hurt by family and friends you trusted.
Trust has to be earned not demanded. If trust is broken the ability to do so again is damaged.
Survivors learn to trust themselves and their instincts because they have no-one left to trust. They need to be in control because do much of their lives have been out of their control.
To ask a survivor to trust anyone - let alone a supernatural entity - and place their lives in the control of someone or something else in the expectation that life will be better is asking them to go against their survival instincts which they have built up over the years.
I didn't say it was easy. It may not even be possible. But if we are to do more than just survive on our own, then we must learn to trust again, in order to become part of the world and to love, which is all in all.
How otherwise can we accept that a gesture of apparent friendliness, of kindness is truthful and well-motivated,if we cannot make some small step towards trusting the person who offers that gesture? I'm not suggesting uncritical trust here but some small step. If we can't open ourselves up to even that possibility, then we reduce all we meet to to the moral level of those who have hurt us. We are alone indeed, if we can trust no-one but ourselves, for we have denied the possibility that others may want to help us and not harm us.
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Mother Hubbard & Rowen
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Duo, thanks for picking up on something. I didn't read karin's posts as platitudes necessarily either (although I remember the thread chris was talking about, and how hopeless it began to feel) I took it as an attempt to provide solace over a medium that makes comfort hard to convey. I was reminded, actually, of sympathy cards.Really. You know when someone passes around a card for someone you know who is bereaved, and you have to write a little something to let them know how sorry you are? And when that happens to me, I always make it really brief, because the enormity of what I wish I could say tends to make everything I attempt sound like tripe.(no tripe here--you know what i mean.Method acting the part of would-be consoler)
So yeah, it's just tough. On both sides.
I would like to add my own struggle with feeling valued by God. Nanny brought up trust. Imagine you have spent your life in an environment that teaches you trust gets you into trouble, trust is a liability, trust is how people get under your skin and hurt you. (I'm decribing my own trust issues now.) Then you reach a point in your life when the only way you can get off of the window ledge is to trust someone. And you realise, with horror, trust isn't there for you to access. It has been beaten out of you. Wouldn't you feel a little like the butt of an elaborate cosmic joke?
And I would like to believe that overcoming this handicap will prove things about me and about God I would have never learned otherwise. Trouble is, it is very, very very very very hard to do that. Ther may be a prize at the top of the mountain, but I can't see it from here--all I see is a huge stinking mountain, covered with rocks and I haven't even got shoes.
So all I really have to offer is "Yeah. I hear ya." With the mustard seed of hope, wish, whatever that God can use that.
{Tangent, sort of)
If you don't think it will derail the thread too much, Ealier todayI was remembering something I blurted out in my College Bible study group about the book of Job; the references here made me remember it.If you want, I wll add it tomorrow. This post has worn me out for now.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I was reminded, actually, of sympathy cards.Really.
....So all I really have to offer is "Yeah. I hear ya." With the mustard seed of hope, wish, whatever that God can use that.
My thanks for your kind words, Kelly - and my apologies to anyone, especially Nanny Ogg, who felt hurt by my bluntness.
[memo to self: improve communication]
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
This thread seems to have raised several issues. The first one is in the opening post: is it all right to be angry with God?
That in turn makes me ask, what do you mean by "all right"? I think God understands our anger, but our anger could well be misguided and God may not like it.
Chris said at one point that he thought being angry at God was less dangerous than being angry with people. I wonder why and I wonder if that is true.
I imagine Chris feels that if he is angry with people he could be physically violent towards them or he could damage his relationship with them (please say if that's not what you had in mind Chris).
However, can't anger with God damage our relationship with God? It is true our God is a forgiving God and a God of grace, but isn't it a bad idea to get into the habit of taking his goodness for granted?
Is God really to blame for the things that go wrong anyway?
It seems that being angry with God means on the one hand you have an image of God as a great big fluffy pussy cat in the sky who will let you do anything to him and never bat an eyelid, and yet on the other hand you think he is some ogre who orchestrates your life to make sure the custard always lands on you.
I think there may have been some other points I wanted to make, but I'm starting to lose track and I think there are enough points to be going on with.
One last thing though. There are times whe we are angry at God or at someone else for no rational reason. In that case it's no good anyone trying to reason with us and it's best if we don't try to rationalise our anger, but admit that we are deeply hurt/confused/depressed or whatever and hold on to God until that time has passed.
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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lanky_badger
Shipmate
# 3514
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Posted
I cannot recommend highly enough a book by Philip Yancey, entitled 'Disappointment with God'.
It discusses the questions, "Is God hidden? Is God silent? Is God unfair?".
It is absolutle brilliant. I don't often get along well with Christian books. This book gives an insight into why God behaves in the way He does, and is all biblically-founded.
Please look it up.
And no, I'm not a relative or agent to Yancey ;o)
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"He had to accept the fate of every newcomer to a small town where there are plenty of tongues that gossip and few minds that think"
Victor Hugo, Of Myriel. Chapter I, Les Miserables.
Posts: 300 | From: shrewsbury | Registered: Nov 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I read it. Found it as much use as a chocolate fireguard.
Sorry.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Nanny Ogg
Ship's cushion
# 1176
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
Thinking of people who are worse off, I wonder what you think of God's attitudes to Christians in the Third World when you say: "Why do some Christians live such favoured lives? Surely all Christians should be blessed by God."
What do you think of God's attitude to those Christians who watch their children die through lack of water, food or medicine etc??
I think my comments were more towards those in the “developed world” and especially those who believe in the “prosperity gospel” – like God always wants to give blessing to those He calls His own and if you are not being blessed then there is something wrong in your life such as unrepented sin etc etc.
Maybe being angry with God is a luxury that we in the West have because we aren't struggling for our basic survival everyday.
quote:
Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
The fact that we don't know what God knows is the very reason that we can't be sure that God "would want to ease out pain not increase it," even if he is loving. God could very well have reasons for all the ugly, abominable things that happen, reasons that make perfect sense to him yet are impossible to articulate to finite minds like ours.
But doesn’t this make a nonsense of the often quoted verse which is usually said to those going through a rough time - “I know the plans I have for you – plans to prosper you and not to harm you; plans to give you hope and a future”? (Jeremiah 29:11)
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
I think you make a good point about churches needing to address people's anger more, whether at God or at other people. Forgiveness is vital, but before a person can forgive they need to work through their anger. Teaching constructive ways to channel anger at God could be another good idea.
I found myself having to forgive (though not face to face) in order to move forward. I was told then that not only would God then be able to start healing me but I would then be able to start receiving God’s blessings. I now feel let down because although I felt spiritually better (for a while) my health has got worse and other crises arose. So much for healing and blessings…
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
There may be a prize at the top of the mountain, but I can't see it from here--all I see is a huge stinking mountain, covered with rocks and I haven't even got shoes. So all I really have to offer is "Yeah. I hear ya." With the mustard seed of hope, wish, whatever that God can use that.
I know how you feel Kelly. If I didn’t have some feeling that things might (and only might) get better at some stage then I may as well be dead. It’s this vague hope or wish that keeps me from holding on. (That and the feeling that if I did end it all I’d be adding to the pain and hurt of others. Also if I did the evil that caused one of the situations I have faced would have won and I'm not prepared to let that happen).
quote:
Originally posted by Karin 3:
However, can't anger with God damage our relationship with God? It is true our God is a forgiving God and a God of grace, but isn't it a bad idea to get into the habit of taking his goodness for granted?
I wouldn’t say that getting angry is a habit, although I’m doing it rather a lot at present. Then again that’s because things are bad at the mo and all I do is hit a brick wall when I try to pray.
quote:
Is God really to blame for the things that go wrong anyway?
Who else is in total control of the world?
quote:
It seems that being angry with God means on the one hand you have an image of God as a great big fluffy pussy cat in the sky who will let you do anything to him and never bat an eyelid, and yet on the other hand you think he is some ogre who orchestrates your life to make sure the custard always lands on you.
Custard is the polite term.
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Buy me a beer and I'm you friend forever
Posts: 4137 | From: Away with the fairies | Registered: Aug 2001
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg:
I think my comments were more towards those in the “developed world” and especially those who believe in the “prosperity gospel” – like God always wants to give blessing to those He calls His own and if you are not being blessed then there is something wrong in your life such as unrepented sin etc etc....
...I found myself having to forgive (though not face to face) in order to move forward. I was told then that not only would God then be able to start healing me but I would then be able to start receiving God’s blessings. I now feel let down because although I felt spiritually better (for a while) my health has got worse and other crises arose. So much for healing and blessings…
I think you have every reason to be angry with those who preach a prosperity gospel, but as it's balone and God doesn't operate like that I don't think your quarrel is with God.
I know God is all-powerful, but for he doesn't use that power just to please himself or even to let us off the hook every time we or the people around us mess up. I think he has set certain rules in motion (I don't pretend to understand exactly how they work) and he has to abide by them too. I believe God has a purpose, and a good one, for all the bad things it seems he allows. Perhaps I have to believe it or there would seem so little point in it all, but I don't think it's just my way of coping, experience teaches me that is true. Sometimes it is helpful to cling on to that when I can't see the sense in something, though.
As for forgiveness it is essential for many reasons and we need to forgive if we are not to become bitter, but it doesn't guarantee us improved health or any other blessing from God.
Hope things do start to get better for you soon, though, Nanny.
((( ))) Karin
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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J. J. Ramsey
Shipmate
# 1174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg:
quote:
Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
The fact that we don't know what God knows is the very reason that we can't be sure that God "would want to ease out pain not increase it," even if he is loving. God could very well have reasons for all the ugly, abominable things that happen, reasons that make perfect sense to him yet are impossible to articulate to finite minds like ours.
But doesn’t this make a nonsense of the often quoted verse which is usually said to those going through a rough time - “I know the plans I have for you – plans to prosper you and not to harm you; plans to give you hope and a future”? (Jeremiah 29:11)
That verse from Jeremiah is one of those that frequently gets quoted out of context. The next person who quotes that verse as if it were a blanket promise for all believers should be dragged out into the street and shot. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
That verse was addressed to the Jews that had been exiled into Babylon after Babylonia conquered and plundered the land of Judea as a judgment from God. It was a part of a promise that Judea would be restored again, and that the Jews would return to their homeland. It was never, and I repeat, never addressed to believers in general.
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I am a rationalist. Unfortunately, this doesn't actually make me rational.
Posts: 1490 | From: Tallmadge, OH | Registered: Aug 2001
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
The Catholic priest who has to comfort Jack Nicholson's character, Warren Schmidt, in the film About Schmidt tells him that it is not wrong to be angry with God, it is best to let it all out. Perhaps people are genuinely beginning to see that God is not (just) some judgemental figure in heaven who despises our anger, but a God of love who wants to hear ALL that we have to say to him...
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
One more thought.
For those of us who believe, surely it is better to be angry WITH God, than to be angry WITHOUT God. To believe, and relate angrily, than not to believe.
Just a thought.
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Rob and MCC--both of your posts wowed me. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
Just now I am feeling rather fed up with young men around the 25 year old mark who crop up on bulletin boards and post in a way that comes across as arrogant and immature.
Apologies to all 25 year old men who don't fall into this category, and I appreciate people of any age and either sex can be prone to this.
However, the fact that one or two particular young men happen to fall into that category is vital to the point I want to make.
I was thinking, they probably can't help it, they're young and chances are I was just as bad at their age, BUT then I started to think of three people about the same age who have helped me by having great insights, inspiring me and being humble enough to listen and not think they have all the answers. I feel they have helped me more than most on my "journey" of faith over the last year or so. It struck me that these three young people have all experienced hard times, two of them I know have struggled with God, but not let go of him and have come through with a better and more real faith. They are willing to listen to what other people have to say and can express their disagreement in a way that does not attack the other person. All three seem to feel more compassion than the average person of any age.
So, although it sounds trite to say that going through hard times can make us better people, and it must be really hard to accept that while we are undergoing a great deal of pain, anguish and frustration, I personally think there is some truth in it, and those three young people seem proof of it to me.
But maybe no one will feel able to find that helpful.
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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McChicken
Shipmate
# 2555
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Posted
By special request of Nanny Ogg:
_Hound of Heaven_
Out of my confusion, my anger
I cried out to God
Out of my bitterness,
Out of my empty life
I screamed at God.
And He heard me.
God stopped and looked at me.
God heard me.
And I ran.
Run from those eyes
Probing into my soul,
Run, run from those relentless eyes
Destroying all my walls
Penetrating into my darkness.
Run, run from God
Run and stumble
Run and fall and run again.
Run struggling for each breath,
Straining to see through the tears
The mists of fear.
Run from the pursuing God.
Pursuing, pursuing with a vengeance.
Run from those eyes,
Those words that would answer me
Run from the utter desolation that I am.
Run to everywhere, run to everything
Run to nothing
Still He follows
Still His eyes see me
Run to nothing, and collapse.
Give in.
Give in to the pain of knowing.
God pursued me
And I ran to nowhere
God heard me,
He pursued me,
And He laid me bare.
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"We're not playing tiddly-winks here mate."
"While the opposite of a true statement is a false statement, the opposite of a profound truth can be another profound truth."
Posts: 634 | From: Ko Ngati Pakeha raua ko Ngai Tahu ahau | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081
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Posted
Looking for the right thread to resurrect, and maybe this is it. I know I am angry with God, to the point of mostly avoiding him.
Someone I was talking to today talked to me about forgiving God, which I found a very difficult concept. Logically I think that if God is God then he never does anything wrong so there is no point in trying to forgive him.
But she explained a bit and got me thinking that there could be a reason to do this if I'm feeling in a place where I feel like I need to forgive God. Even to make a bit of progress and get past some of the bitterness. I've tried to forgive the people in churches who have disappointed and hurt me. But I'm still bitter at God.
I've read the Philip Yancey book 'Disappointment with God' mentioned above, and I did find it tolerable, which is good for me and Christian literature. He isn't too preachy and is quite real in how he talks about feelings. But more and more as I go back to the book I feel for one main guy Richard mentioned as being completely disillusioned with God.
I couldn't face approaching God today, to forgive him, talk to him or anything. But I maybe got a bit closer. Thanks to a friend in the cell group which I ranted about in my Prisoner Cell Group H thread (the one who wasn't there on Thursday).
Maybe it's worth sticking with it. What do others think? I'm hoping this thread gets going again.
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Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home. Martyn Joseph
Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
This thread certainly came along at an opportune moment -- right after the memorial service of yet another cancer victim who died too soon.
Thoughts after the memorial service of one who died too soon
I have an argument with Death; I have a quarrel with his methodology.
It is not the concept itself with which I disagree.
I know that all life must end, from the smallest gnat to the tallest redwood.
I understand the laws of physics.
I realize that the old man may welcome the rasping breath of pneumonia, and that the weary deserve to rest from carrying their loads.
But cancer strikes me as unfair, turning the body against its owner, silently, lethally betraying its own substance, sneaking back when once defeated, striking again until, at last it wins.
In taking those who still have lives to live, words to write, children to rear, music to make and by such unsporting means, Death proves it is the enemy.
God, you talked to Job; please tell me why.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Hugs to OutofTherapy and Rossweisse. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Hey, it's back!
My turn.
Y'all gotta understand that while I believe that God unconditionally loves you and you and you and you, on some level I also believe that I am left out of the loop for some reason. I try to talk myself out of it, but it keeps popping up.
This weekend, after some job search/computer/personal/depression related setbacks, I began cleaning my room, and I found on my dresser a cardboard picture of Jesus I have had since I was kid. Due to the kind of thoughts I was thinking, I looked down at that picture of Jesus with a little white lamb in His arms, and thought,you know what? your just another man I adore and depend on who withholds all approval while handing me full measure of judgement. Isn't that what life is teaching me? that I am deserving of nothing but responsible for every mistake I make? To the point where I am afraid to make a move?
So I put this picture, and some other religious paraphenalia I had scattered about the room, in a small box, which I was planning to stuff in the closet. A twinge of guilt arose when I did this, and I responded, well, Jacob wrestled with you, Lord--consider this me wrestling with you. The box comes back out when I have some sort of conviction that God is personally interested in me.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
It is hard when we feel God has lets us down and it's only natural that we should feel angry, hurt and disappointed.
A lot of stuff we are taught about God doesn't help. He's not a magician or sugar daddy in the sky who will just make everything all right. I'm sure He's all powerful and I'm sure He is truly good, so there must be some reason we can't understand why he doesn't just fix everything and make it all OK.
Some of that must have to do with natural consequences, I think, and not just the natural consequences of our actions, but of other people's and of simply living in a "fallen world" (whatever that means), where death and disease and greed and selfishness exist.
I also suspect that one reason God doesn't just zap us and make everything all right is because he wants to teach us to help each other. I think whe He sent Jesus He hoped that Jesus would inspire us to start looking out for each other and stop being so selfish. So I think it's other people who are to blame, not God - but I have been angry with God and I could be angry with Him again: when we are depressed or deeply grieved, for example, we don't always think straight and our feelings can cloud our judgement.
They also say that our idea of God is affected by our fathers. If our father let us down badly we shall have much more trouble trusting God. My dad was very critical and it took me years to shake off the idea that God was equally judgemental and to begin to understand what God's grace and forgiveness really meant. It took me quite a few more years for God's grace to really start to make a difference on my life, and I'm sure there is still great room for improvement, both in my understanding of God's grace and the changes it can bring about in me.
Try to keep faith in the loving heavenly Father Jesus taught us about, with whom Jesus died to reunite us.
I don't know if anyone will find that helpful, but I hope so.
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081
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Posted
quote:
while I believe that God unconditionally loves you and you and you and you, on some level I also believe that I am left out of the loop for some reason. I try to talk myself out of it, but it keeps popping up
completely with you on that one Kelly. And in agreement with earlier posters that God is big enough and can take us being angry. I know I do shut God up in a box somewhere too.
As for Karin's
quote:
I also suspect that one reason God doesn't just zap us and make everything all right is because he wants to teach us to help each other. I think whe He sent Jesus He hoped that Jesus would inspire us to start looking out for each other and stop being so selfish. So I think it's other people who are to blame, not God
Well maybe. Certainly I blamed other people at first. I tried different churches and tried to forgive people and kept on trying to help other people myself. But all this trying gets hard. Because the church is made up of flawed people like me I eventually decided to cut them/us some slack. I don't feel inclined to cut God any slack.
What is he doing up there? If this is all some grand experiment to see if we can help each other through the results must show fairly conclusively by now that we can't. I mean we try, and I appreciate friendly words and hugs sometimes, but they don't make up for the fact that people talk about having a personal relationship with God and I haven't got one. And I've asked, politely then less politely.
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Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home. Martyn Joseph
Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003
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ChrisT
One of the Good Guys™
# 62
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OutOfTherapy:
What is he doing up there? If this is all some grand experiment to see if we can help each other through the results must show fairly conclusively by now that we can't. I mean we try, and I appreciate friendly words and hugs sometimes, but they don't make up for the fact that people talk about having a personal relationship with God and I haven't got one. And I've asked, politely then less politely.
This 'personal relationship with God' is something Christians talk about all the time. And while I agree that an awareness of spirituality and God is important - even essential - to a healthy life, the problem is the way it is dressed up.
Either they (well-meaning Christians) imply that once you are 'on track with God' ('living in the bullseye of his will' is one phrase I used to hear a lot) then things will be OK. Not perfect, but OK. They aren't for many people, myself included.
Or they give you the 'you will have trouble in this world' line and say you just have to hang on to God anyway. Either stance lacks any kind of practical, real love. It's all some ethereal idea that we are somehow supposed to hold on to, that is somehow supposed to give us hope.
I'm not too bothered whether God is up there, whether he loves me, whether he in in control. What I want to see is the people that profess to be followers of his practicing what they preach. And I mean myself as well. I have found myself recently getting very angry with God, and other people, because they don't do what they say they believe in. It's like they suspend any outworking reality of their inward beliefs, and instead offer pious platitudes and limp words.
I think I will continue to be angry with God for a long, long time. Someone once said this isn't healthy - and maybe they are right. But I don't see any end to this, I don't see a God who loves me, I have not seen happen what I have been taught for years would happen. In fact the vast majority of what I believed has come crashing down around me, with nothing but Christians (and God, it seems) standing by saying 'oh dear, isn't that sad'.
So is it a 'personal relationship' with God that I need? I thought I had one of those before. Or is it something more real, tangible - something that will actually make a difference in my life. I've had enough of airy-fairy Christianity, I want proof of the things I have believed for years.
OK, rant over.
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Firmly on dry land
Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I want to explain a little more:
I thought about the whole attributing My father's attitude to God's as I was experiencing the anger I described, and I have thought it before, but I much too quickly dismiss it and write off my anger as misplaced angst from my troubled childhood. But who put me in this family? and why is it the good, kind, gentle men who seemed genuinely interested in me either died, moved away, or became otherwise unreachable, while the schitzophrenic drunkard who raised me was privy to my every move, and the Pastor that replaced one of the kindest men I knew stuck around for fifteen years to belittle me,manipulate me, shame me in front of the church, and generally instill in me a belief that my relationship with God could be taken from me at the slightest provocation? If faith will save me, Lord, then why did you let it get beat out of me? Don't you care if you lose me?
And if I tell myself, "Tsk, tsk, Kelly, you shouldn't direct your anger at God" it is just another way of reinforcing what I've been taught, that I must suffer silently, and the slightest moment of doubt is grounds for "divorce" on God's part.I DON'T BELIEVE IN THAT GOD.
As I was putting the objects in the box, I was praying. And I felt this odd sense of...permission. Like this was what was necessary for me to finallly get real. My image of God is wrong, but I need God's help to change it. Thus the gauntelet. Or "fleece", if you will.
Also, I didn't remove all the religious objects in the room, just the ones that particularly annoyed me. I chucked The Prayer of Jabez straight in the bin. What is left is my St. Francis Tao cross, the rosary my mom gave me from Italy, and my Sacred Heart votive and medallion.Maybe if I trust my instincts in this matter it will start making sense.
In the meantime, I think ultimately my actions and my angry prayers demonstrated a lot of faith in God. I certainly never could have talked to my father that way.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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ChrisT
One of the Good Guys™
# 62
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe if I trust my instincts in this matter it will start making sense.
And that makes a lot of sense to me too, Kelly. Some people call it a 'still, small voice', but for me the instinct you mentioned IS the living proof that God is with you. Yes I get it wrong, yes my emotions are mixed up in it, yes my upbringing has a huge amount to do with it. But still I believe (want to believe) that somewhere in me is some good, something striving to be better - and that is God in me.
quote:
In the meantime, I think ultimately my actions and my angry prayers demonstrated a lot of faith in God. I certainly never could have talked to my father that way.
Me neither. Again I agree with you. The ability to be completely honest about how you are feeling - even to the extent of raging anger and dissolusionment - is something that only comes when you want to put something into a relationship. My faith in God hasn't been shaken one bit over the last 13 months, in fact it has been strengthened considerable. But my faith in what I expect of him has been shattered. And that is maybe more to do with what I have been taught about God than what I have experienced of him.
But that still makes me p**d off.
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Firmly on dry land
Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
As I wasn't brought up as a Christian I have always (since becoming a Christian) been interested in finding out what it really means to be a Christian: how I should change the way I live etc. I haven't found sermons and house groups and such like have always been that helpful. As a result I joined a Bible study class that offered in depth study of the Bible. I did learn a lot from it but, while to begin with I was a bit sceptical of certain teachings, I suppose I became less questioning. After attending for 4 years I started to listen to Martyn Joseph's "Thunder and Rainbows" and, after momentarily considering some of what he sang about "unsound", I felt like he was reaffirming my instincts as to what I thought Christianity was all about. While I have gained a much better knowledge of the Bible as a result of the 5 years of the study course I did, I felt I had swallowed a lot of unhelpful teaching and I think there is a lot of it about in all different shapes and shades.
While "our instinct" should be informed by what we read in the Bible, and especially in the gospels IMO (we are Christ-ians after all) I think our instinct should not be ignored. Perhaps indeed it is the "still small voice of God". I certainly think it can be at times.
Of course, one thing Martyn has taught me is that there are no easy answers, so while I offer the thoughts that help me in case they help others, and occasionally I find they do, I realise they won't help everyone. Words have there limitations.
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081
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Posted
Chris T, do you really mean this?...
quote:
I'm not too bothered whether God is up there, whether he loves me, whether he in in control. What I want to see is the people that profess to be followers of his practicing what they preach.
To me if God isn't up there, if he doesn't love me and if he isn't in control then I see very little point to anything. As I said in a previous post I am quite resigned to the inadequacies of churches and christians, myself included.
I agree with you both about the need to follow our instincts (spirit?) and I guess that is what stops me giving up entirely.
I can't figure out how I can come round to forgiving God (what do you think on that one?) or liking him enough to seek his company again. I can see myself in a stand-off, no-win situation and I know I am so stubborn that getting to a point of saying I was wrong and God was right (the only theo-logical conclusion) is a huge step.
How is your faith in God still strong, Chris? Mine seems inextricably linked with my disappointments with what he has done or failed to do.
And finally Karin, while I share your admiration for the songs and sentiment in Martyn Joseph's work, I don't think I'm treasuring the questions. I'm too pissed off.
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Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home. Martyn Joseph
Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003
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ChrisT
One of the Good Guys™
# 62
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OutOfTherapy:
Chris T, do you really mean this?...
quote:
I'm not too bothered whether God is up there, whether he loves me, whether he in in control. What I want to see is the people that profess to be followers of his practicing what they preach.
Apologies, OutOfTherapy, I did not express myself clearly. What I meant to say was I know that there is a God, and that he can't be all bad. Therefore my faith in him is strong - because I know that he's still there despite what has happened. I don't think any more that he is in control, at least not in the way I have thought him to be. I believe in nuclear power, and although I believe it is a good thing, whether it is being used for good is another matter. Rubbish example I know, apologies.
quote:
I can't figure out how I can come round to forgiving God
I'm not sure, I'm still trying to figure this one out. Someone very dear to me said last year that they were just hoping that the pain would become less and less each day. I lashed back with the 'but God want you to live a victorious life - what hope is that (the pain getting slowly less) for a daughter of God?'. How stupid was I. She was right, of course. I don't believe that pain gets less - in fact in some ways it gets worse. But what happens is that part of our being that touches that pain becomes hard and insensitive to it. Forgiveness is, in part, the acceptance that this IS the way things are, and that life must go on. Forgiving God means I remain on speaking terms if nothing else. And 'speaking' could mean shouting.
quote:
How is your faith in God still strong, Chris?
My faith in God is still strong, as I haven't (yet) been shaken from believing that he exists. As I said my faith in a load of other semi-related things has been shattered. Those things include: the existance of perfect love; that God has a plan for me; that God wants the best for me and my family; that God actively gets involved in our lives; that God protects us from harm and several others.
But then this is a good day, and I've had a reasonable week so far. On bad days no doubt I would have replied with something different.
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Firmly on dry land
Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001
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Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081
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Posted
Thanks for your reply Chris, it did make things much clearer and I'm now even more with you. I guess my faith in God, as in believing he exists is still strong, as there's little point in being pissed off with someone who doesn't exist!
Maybe I'll go a bit further and say that I do believe God is in control and that he does have a plan for me. However, that does not help with the being pissed off bit. Saying that God is in control gives me more reason, almost, as it means I can blame him for not intervening when he could. I respect the concept of human free-will etc etc and understand why God lets some bad things happen. What I don't understand is why he would choose to appear so absent, why he would refuse to answer prayers along the lines of getting to know him more or why he would let people feel utterly forsaken when he CAN do something about these things.
Though I frequently doubt that God cares about me I can easily imagine him having a plan for me... it probably goes along the lines of serving diligently here and there and some big time repentance round about now. God having a plan for me doesn't mean I'll like it or comply, he's probably well aware of that.
A friend said to me at the weekend about how God lets us shout at him like a parent/carer would with a hurt teenager, an image that meant a lot as I've worked with some very angry kids. But the end of her image, and what I would want to do for the kids is be there and give them a hug once they've finished ranting. I just can't trust that God would do that for me (he hasn't in the past)so I'm not letting him anywhere near.
I did appreciate her hug though. If I were feeling more charitable towards God maybe I'd give him a bit of the credit for her care and concern, as I think she'd like. But I'm not.
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Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home. Martyn Joseph
Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003
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Uriel
Shipmate
# 2248
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Posted
I have found reading this thread fascinating, and see at the heart of it a desire to overcome the conflict that comes when we try and hold the following, apparently contradictory, beliefs:
1) God loves us
2) God has the power to affect the things that happen to us
3) Some things taking place in my life or that of a loved one are tremendously painful, and persist even though I have prayed to God to act.
Maintaining a Christian worldview and holding all 3 statements as true is very difficult, and trying to hold them together during times of intense suffering is so much harder. I know this as it is a place I have been in for the last year.
A year ago my wife miscarried what would have been our first child. We are still childless. At the same time as this traumatic event, an acquaintance of mine married to a curate was expecting a child. The acquaintance was in labour and there were complications. The doctors reached the point where they felt there was nothing further they could do and the baby was in serious danger. The curate/husband suggested that they all prayed, and lo and behold the complications slowly began to resolve themselves. Two weeks later they returned to their church, with healthy newborn, and everyone said how wonderful God was to have answered their prayers. So where was this wonderful God when I was on my knees praying for some kind of miracle? Why is it that as soon as I prayed things went from questionable to inevitably terminal, while the prayers of others apparently bring such good results.
Theology has to be done in the context you are living in, and your faith has to be true to your experience. So it is that I recognised I had to struggle with the age old problem of suffering, that is how can a good and powerful God remain silent to the calls of his children when they are suffering. Here is where I am up to so far...
The Free Will Defence (God permits suffering when it is due to someone's free choice, e.g. acts of terrorism) does not hold in my situation as there is no immoral action to point to that caused the miscarriage - it is just the vagaries of human biology.
The maturation argument (God permits suffering because it contributes to our maturing and becoming more fully human) is also questionable. When I broke up with my girlfriend when I was 16 I was very hurt, but that pain helped me become a more mature individual and I can thank God for the lesson it taught me. But I find it hard to believe that there is any lesson valuable enough that causing the extinction of a newly formed life is deemed a worthwhile price for it to be learned. Neither can I accept that the few shreds of good to come out of the situation (such as becoming much closer to my wife) are worth the cost of a life ending, particularly when you try and work out the ethical calculation from the point of view of the embryo who died.
The tentative conclusion I have so far reached is that Christianity has been hampered by misunderstanding the nature of God's omnipotence. To say that a being can do anything does not mean that it can do anything we can imagine. God could not make a square with three sides, because if he did it would be a triangle. Even an omnipotent being cannot do those things which are internally self-contradictory. The Free Will Defence, for example, is based on the fact that God cannot make beings that are both pre-determined in their actions yet free to choose, for such a being could not logically exist.
My current hypothesis is that God has established immutable scientific laws to govern the physical interactions of the universe, and that the sort of universe we live in necessarily needs such laws to permit its everyday functioning. God has therefore self-limited himself not to violate those laws on occasion for to do so would bring in a contradiction - we can't have immutable scientific laws that are also occasionally unstable. So if you pray for rain and it rains, it isn't because God heard you and caused rain to fall, it's just that you got lucky with your timing and the physical laws controlling the weather made it rain anyway.
This view of a God who does not directly intervene with the physical interactions of the universe may not be acceptable to some who want to believe in direct healing and other such miracles. Such a view, however, does imply a partial and fickle God who chooses to heal some while remaining idle for others. I state this because I have to be true to my experience of God's silent inactivity in my hour of greatest need. If he genuinely does answer prayers for direct healing, why does he only answer some?
Note that so far I have only talked of a God who is not able to directly interfere with the physical world. I still believe in the Christian God, and belive that his interaction in the world is through those people who align himself to his will. The purpose of prayer is not to ask God to do magic tricks, but to influence mental/emotional/spiritual states and in doing so inspire us to act in the world as the hands of God. While it would be futile to pray for food to miraculously appear on plates before the starving of the world, it would be appropriate to ask God to be with those helping the hungry and to guide oneself in knowing how to contribute.
Sorry that this has been a long post - it's taken me a year and a lot of tears to get this far. It's not something I talk about much, and wasn't sure whether to write about it on the Ship. I would love to hear if anyone has any comments on my analysis - I'm not entirely comfortable with it (it implies a strongly dualistic mind/body split, it also requires a radical reappraisal and maybe rejection of some of the biblical miracle passages), but it's the best I can do while keeping true to the wholly awful experience of losing a pregnancy.
Cheers,
Uriel.
Posts: 687 | From: Somerset, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Ophelia's Opera Therapist
Shipmate
# 4081
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Posted
Uriel,
I want to comment on what you said but it is hard, especially as I cannot claim to have a clue how you feel. Forgive me if any of what follows loses sight of the painful reality.
I guess I've come to conclusions about suffering that reflect the state of the fallen world we live in. In a perfect world no-one would die or lose a child. Since this is a far from perfect world sometimes these things do happen, and to Christians pretty much just as much as anyone else. This fits as logical in my brain. Being 'saved' does not, in my opinion, grant any special exemption from pain and suffering on earth. If people saw that Christians escaped any suffering then they might become Christians just to avoid such painful circumstances. Instead they see Christians struggling with pain and suffering, with horrible situations, and on a good day they see some sign of faith or comfort in God. But being real about the painful angry feelings could also be a good witness, as could seeing friends support each other.
I have no idea if God sometimes does intervene, and how he chooses when to do so. Medically some fluke healings do happen, with or without the influence of God so I would still expect this to happen to Christians sometimes. It's easier to believe that God has intervened in an amazing healing way when this happens, the miracle maybe points to a higher power. But as you say, to think that he would answer some prayers and not others is hard to accept.
Suffering is such a major part of this screwed up world. It's easy to forget about it when life seems to be chugging along fine. I haven't personally experienced particularly tragic circumstances lately and that makes it much easier for me to write from the hypothetical distance. When I read so many posts on this site I am reminded of what people are going through, and it makes me that bit more compassionate. I guess we can all use a reality check from time to time. There are so many hurting people out there.
Can't see that this is likely to be helpful but hope it doesn't seem too inconsiderate of your situation.
OOT
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Though the bleak sky is burdened I'll pray anyway,
And though irony's drained me I'll now try sincere,
And whoever it was that brought me here
Will have to take me home. Martyn Joseph
Posts: 979 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Feb 2003
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ChrisT
One of the Good Guys™
# 62
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Posted
Thaks Uriel and OutOfTherapy, you have written with honesty and openness. I'll have to reread your posts carefully, and after that I may have something better to say.
The one thing that has struck me is that you both aren't letting go, you still believe in some good. You mention prayer and faith, despite the awful things you have been through. Maybe I'm in a similar position, I certainly see that I aam at a crossroads. Leaving my church was the first big step. I now see no positive way forward. Trust, hope and faith in times such as these become less important than survival and honesty.
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Firmly on dry land
Posts: 6489 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: May 2001
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