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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Why don't Anglicans do enough on abortion?
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Paddy, I recommend you stop cutting and pasting bogus statistics and half-truths in interminable posts and engage the issue. None of the statistics (I identified at least two that are baldly incorrect, and I'll go off to get the sources on it) that you cite matters at all against the question of whether it is moral or not. We don't outlaw most homicides because of a pile of statistics on how murder affects people, or whatever, we outlaw it primarily because we feel it is wrong to kill another human.
In the first instance, you must answer: why do you feel abortion ought to be restricted by the state?
I will address one thing: you say abortion is against the Bible. It is not. Repeat. Not. mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Some contributors to the Bible certainly spoke against killing and against abusing the weak, but opposition to abortion is an interpretation of the scripture that some have made.
It is especially annoying that you should say the example of Mary is an anti-abortion story -- it has nothing whatsoever to do with abortion. You are simply imagining Mary as a modern teenager, and imagining that "pro-abortion" people (I don't know any of those, by the way) would recommend she abort. It's a straw man, and unworthy.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Furthermore, abortion was regarded in Jewish law as acceptable up to a certain point, so it isn't as if Tradition is even necessarily opposed.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Tubbs:
Paddy L wrote:
quote:
Abortion clinics in the UK are required to account the numbers of abortions on women outside the UK. The number of abortions performed on Northern Irish women is actually very low and is not a great concern to us.
Paddy
Dunno about anything else, but your geography certainly needs work. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Northern Ireland is part of the UK - so the statistics for NI would only refer to abortions performed in that region. Try looking under Southern Ireland or Eire ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Tubbs
Also, you may want to read this article on the judical review on N Irish provision. This article quotes a figure of 2,000 a year so your maths may also need some work as this isn't a number I'd describe as "very low". This earlier article gives an estimated figure of 40,000 over the last 20 years. Again, given the size of the population during this time, it isn't a "very low" figure either.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
I actually think its a great under-estimation. A lot of women have relatives in the north of England, and give that as their address
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
Paddy,
1. When you produce such long posts, I get lost half-way through. Why not answer one point at a time?
2. All the information you produce from SPUC is nothing more than the stuff we used for debate in Moral Issues at GCSE level. It's quite common knowledge and does not necessarily convince people one way or another.
3. The morning after pill is used by many people who are not pregnant - just because a girl or woman has penetrative sexual intercourse does not mean that they will become pregnant. They use the morning after pill in case. So statistics about its use do not provide any information about the termination of pregnancies. We don't know how many would have become pregnant, and of those we don't know how many would have had spontaneous miscarriages, maybe even before they realised...
And usually it's a very uncomfortable experience to take that pill. Once it's been tried, it's not usually taken lightly.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ham'n'Eggs
Ship's Pig
# 629
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Posted
Paddy,
I understand that you feel strongly on this issue.
(I worked for David Alton's office for 3 months during the progress of his 1988 Private Members bill which attempted to amend the 1967 Abortion Act, a very enlightening experience. Not least the revelation that entrenched positions do not permit fruitful debate.)
These are discussion boards. Single issue campaigners are not permitted here, by Commandment 8.
If you are on these boards solely to lobby for a single issue on which your mind is made up, then you are in violation of the rules of the Ship, and have made a false declaration in agreeing to abide by them.
Hope that this helps!
H&E
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"...the heresies that men do leave / Are hated most of those they did deceive" - Will S
Posts: 3103 | From: Genghis Khan's sleep depot | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
At least Paddy is honest that although he has come to a discussion board he is not interested in discussing anything! But he does ask a question about why 'Anglicans' don't do 'enough' on abortion. It would be good to hear what the definition of 'enough' is to start with; enough what? Campaigning for it, against it, supporting it, condemning it? 'Enough' what?
Also which Anglicans does Paddy have in mind: the entire membership of the worldwide Anglican Communion? Or any little group of Anglicans in particular?
If the former, Paddy is not likely to find a satisfactory answer to his ambiguous question, as I don't think even the most confident and broad-church Anglican here on the boards is likely to feel they represent every Anglican in Christendom; and if it's a question about policies espoused by each of the member churches of the Communion, then surely that information, if it exists, is available from their own media and head office sources?
And thereafter it's a matter of opinion whether or not it's 'enough' (whatever that means, how nice it would be to know!).
If the latter, then which particular group of Anglicans does Paddy have in mind?
Now, if the question had been, coming as it does from a (Roman?)Catholic, has the Anglican Communion, or any of its member churches, formulated any central policies on the issue of abortion in the same way as the RCC; and if not, why not? Now there's a question that might arguably spark some debate.
However, as Paddy has admitted he is not here to debate, I guess we'll never know ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
You know what I wish? I tell yas what I wish. I wish the rent-a-crowds of singing, sloganeering 'christians' that harangue women going into abortion clinics would do something that might actually help reduce the number of abortions.
Like oooh. Becoming known as people who will give non-judgemental support and material assistance: furniture, clothing, childcare, school bursaries - would be a good place to start.
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Icky they DO do something they pay mega money to 18 year olds to give us a hard time.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
yup, this thread is shaping up pretty much like i thought. *grabs handful of popcorn* carry on folks.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
OK, here's some heat. I agree that we must be practical, I agree that we must be pragmatic (oh hang on, that's nearly the same thing...) and I agree we must value sanctity of life above quality of life. But isn't it all really about conscience? As much as we hate to admit it, it must be...
Take a look at these photographs and try and say that abortion should remain legal...
Abortion Thumbnails
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
It should remain legal.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paddy Leahy:
Pro-aborts USED to refer to backstreet abortions that were taking place which often resulted in the death of a mother. But these figures were found to be fabricated (made-up).
Thanks, Paddy. It's always good to learn a new word.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rob - ID crisis InDiE KiD:
Take a look at these photographs and try and say that abortion should remain legal...
Abortion Thumbnails[/QB]
It should remain legal.
You really weren't paying attention when someone explained above why the whole "it's murder" argument hasn't changed the minds of those like me who think abortion is morally wrong but should be legal, were you?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
It should remain legal.
I've been seeing those "horror" pictures for roughly 30 years now. They didn't stop me from having my abortions, and they don't cause me any emotional grief now. Contrary to pro-life rhetoric, having an abortion does not automatically lead to "psychological trauma".
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Paddy Leahy
Apprentice
# 3888
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Posted
Laura:
"None of the statistics (I identified at least two that are baldly incorrect, and I'll go off to get the sources on it) that you cite matters at all against the question of whether it is moral or not"
Yes they do. If a woman is seven times more likely to commit suicide as a result of abortion, then doesn't it say something about the procedure? If we can present the facts to prospective mothers then it might help them to avoid the psychological problems associated with abortion...as well as giving the child a chance.
"We don't outlaw most homicides because of a pile of statistics on how murder affects people, or whatever, we outlaw it primarily because we feel it is wrong to kill another human."
Of course, but the topic of abortion is about more than just the murder of a child. Research has shown in America that some people, who believe abortion is wrong, still go ahead with it because they see giving birth will kill them (metaphorically - i.e. their career, their freedom, lack of responsibilities et cetera). If we can show women that abortion isn't liberating then it may save them from needless pain and struggle.
"why do you feel abortion ought to be restricted by the state?"
Because it involves the killing of another human being. I have already described that how from the moment of conception the developmental process begins and will continue right until we die. Pictures of unborn children can show us how significant the child is - even after only a few weeks.
Abortion is not an individual issue. It infringes the human rights of another human being. Furthermore, by reducing the birth rate it becomes a public issue. Britain's birth rate is now 1.6 which is well below replacement level. This means less workers and therefore less taxpayers meaning that, at current levels, sooner or later there will not be enough funds for the NHS. Even right now the state pension is under threat. I could go on for pages and suggest we leave any related debate about the birth rate to a different thread.
"you say abortion is against the Bible. It is not. Repeat. Not"
Yes it is. And not only in the bible but in most major religious' texts. Several examples: Genesis 1:27, Exodus 20:13, Job 10:8-11, Psalm 139:13-16, Jeremiah 1:5, Isaiah 49:1-5, Judges 13:7, John 1:14 etc
It is also clear in the bible that the eternal Word of God became incarnate not at his birth, but at the moment of conception (Matthew 1:20).
The Gospel of Luke describes how John the Baptist, as a foetus of six months' gestation, responded to the presence of Jesus when he was a tiny embryo of only some days' development (Luke 1:39-44).
Furthermore, the Christian Church has rejected abortion from the earliest years of its existence. For instance, the manuscript of the Didache, which probably dates from the latter half of the first century, condemns abortion altogether, along with infanticide. St. Athenagoras, St Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, St Basil the Great, St Ambrose of Milan, St John Chrysostom and St Jerome were among Christian leaders who condemned abortion.
As stated, there is also evidence in the Torah. For instance, Nidah 30b: "To what can the child be compared inside his mother's womb... as with a candle perched on his head he perceives the world from one end to the other...the days when the Lord watched over me?"
The Qu'ran is also quite clear that human life begins at conception. In one place the Qu'ran reads: "Verily We have created man from a drop of mingled fluids of both male and female." In another place it observes: "And We cause whom We will to rest in wombs for an appointed time, then do We bring you out as babies".
Hinduism also condemns abortion. Hindu scriptures refer to abortion as garha-batta (womb killing) and bhroona hathya (killing the undeveloped soul). Hindus believe abortion is wrong because all beings are manifestations of the Supreme Being.
Hope this helps
Paddy
Posts: 43 | From: Kent, England | Registered: Jan 2003
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) a host a host my kingdom for a host.....
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Paddy Leahy
Apprentice
# 3888
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Posted
Tubbs:
"Northern Ireland is part of the UK - so the statistics for NI would only refer to abortions performed in that region"
Northern Ireland opted out of the 1967 abortion act and as such abortion is illegal there. If a woman wants an abortion (except in rare circumstances) she therefore has to 'travel' to England and is therefore treated as a foreigner under statistics.
Thanks for your figure of 2,000 by the way. I don't have the number as such only the percentage of abortions in terms of live births. For 2000 for England and Wales it was 29%, for Scotland 23%, Republic of Ireland 11.7% and for Northern Ireland 7.1%. Moreover that year represents a blip since it had been constantly around 6% (in 1999 it was 6.2%). In that respect pro-lifer should be more concerned about the Republic of Ireland rather than Northern Ireland.
Paddy
Posts: 43 | From: Kent, England | Registered: Jan 2003
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
(((pyx_e))) want some popcorn?
paddy, are you the slightest bit iterested in aything other than abortion? why not look aroud the ship a bit at some other threads, before you get yourself tossed overboard for crusading?
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
Rob, it is not about conscience it is about rights. Paddy, my support for first trimester abortions takes the mother's rights into account. I concede that she has a rapidly developing potential human being inside her but point out that the embryo has a parasitic relationship to her. Therefore, her right to be free of parasitic support of another life come into play in my opinion. Early on, her rights outweigh those of the fetus because it is not fully human in my view (you will argue otherwise, but I will touch on that later.) Later, even though it is still biologically parasitic and remains economically parasitic the fetus takes on undeniably human form and begins human experience with the functioning of its human brain. At that point, in my opinion, its right supercede the mother's. All of this has an element of arbitrariness and opinion, which is the answer to your question, "Why don't Anglicans do more to fight what is an obvious wrong (my wording and truer I suspect to your real question). Your assertion is that there is only fact and not opinion on the matter and the fact is that the Bible teaches "life begins at conception."
Protection from the point of conception is arbitrary too although you pretend it to be fixed and obvious. When the sperm is on the way to the egg nucleus, conception is imminent--is termination OK? When the sperm is swimming up to the egg conception is a distinct possibility--can it be intercepted? You can take the argument back to the testicles, the ovaries, and the willingness to have children in the first place as the Catholic church used to. If you argue from the point of "don't get in the way of the will of God" you can go back to sex before conception because it is "part of God's plan." What makes you think that it is not a matter of opinion and established fact that God's plan for the individual starts with the fusing of sperm chromosomes to the egg? If God "knew you before you were born" as it says in Psalms, your parents would have blocked his Will by not having sex and using contraception to prevent your birth. Did they have the right to do this? Or must they have sex and must they have children? An argument can be made based on isolated verses that the Bible prevents people from controlling everything about their reproduction because God has declared the entire process under His control.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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LowFreqDude
Shipmate
# 3152
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Posted
I've shifted somewhat in my perception of termination. I used to be vocally anti- but some thinking and discussion has softened my stance.
Ideally it shouldn't exist, but I know believe that it needs to be available, safe and legal. My problem with many Christian orgs in seeking a ban on abortion is that only deals with a facet of reproductive responsibility. Christian orgs need to address sex education (with complete candour), support and councilling, practical support, not in the (IMO) "cash for gestation" mode, in short an end to end presence.
I loath the barracking of clinics that occurs. It's horrible, and doesn't help. There are better ways to campaign.
LFD
Posts: 625 | Registered: Aug 2002
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
Note to Pyx_e: NickA obviously had a single issue to crusade, namely "Salvation requires speaking in tongues" but we talked him to death until he left voluntarily. My vote is to let the thread go to 1,000 posts and Dead Horse it rather than chop it off after a few dozen posts.
Paddy can't have 1,000 posts in him. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
But I do; I'm just getting warmed up!
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I haven't posted much on Purgatory for a while, but I had to jump in and make two statements:
1. I do, genuinely, believe abortion should be against the law on the sorts of grounds mentioned by Erin and others, above
BUT
2. Two words, repeated indefinitely: Trip-trap, trip-trap, trip-trap...
I.e., Paddy, this really is dangerously close to trolling, and the way you don't seem to be responding to people's concerns over your posting style and single-mindedness does not bode well, as far as I can tell. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong on the subject of abortion or its legality, or for that matter on brain death or geography; if you're violating the rules, or the spirit of the rules, of courteous debate here on the Ship, then eventually a Host will get sick of it, and not only that but no one will listen to you, and you'll never convince anyone of the rightness of your cause because everyone will have written you off as a non-listening, one-issue crusader. Whether you're right or wrong.
David
(Say, Nicole, can my popcorn be salt-free? Thanks.)
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Paddy Leahy
Apprentice
# 3888
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Posted
Daisymay:
"So statistics about its use do not provide any information about the termination of pregnancies"
That's why there are a lack of stats about the morning-after-pill and the number of related abortions.
"And usually it's a very uncomfortable experience to take that pill. Once it's been tried, it's not usually taken lightly."
I know...and that's why it also worries me that its not on prescription anymore. Previously a doctor could check someone's health records to see if they were in a high risk category (e.g. from blood clots) or ensure that a woman has not taken more than 2 courses in a short space of time. It's an extremely powerful drug.
Ham n Eggs:
"These are discussion boards. Single issue campaigners are not permitted here, by Commandment 8. "
That is absurd. This is hardly a single issue. Such a commandment is nothing short of bigotry.
"for a single issue on which your mind is made up"
Does that mean I cannot claim murder is wrong, or that I am human since one cannot have a definite view of something?
Anselmina:
"he is not interested in discussing anything!"
I am interested in discussing other topics obviously. Its just I haven't found any of interest. I'm very political and am mainly interested in issues but there don't appear to be too many in discussion so thought I'd start my own.
As for what 'enough' constitutes, I'd suggest it probably means voting for pro-life candidates and taking part in the odd bit of activism, help fund counselling etc.
**I think the criticisms from some members towards me are unnecessary and designed to serve as a destraction from the issues I have raised.
Icarus (The Coot):
"I wish the rent-a-crowds of singing, sloganeering 'christians' that harangue women going into abortion clinics would do something that might actually help reduce the number of abortions."
I never use Christianity in pro-life activism since it undermines the cause and I don't know anyone who would harangue women going into abortion clinics. It wouldn't do our public image much good.
"Like oooh. Becoming known as people who will give non-judgemental support and material assistance: furniture, clothing, childcare, school bursaries - would be a good place to start."
We do though. For instance, Student LifeNet and LIFE helps to campaign for universities and unions to support pregnant students so they don't have to choose between their education and a child's life.
Rob:
Thanks for posting those. I think they help to convey the inhumanity of abortion and the humanity of the victim. How anyone can look at those and not feel slightly uncomfortable with supporting abortion is uncomprehendable.
jlg:
"I've been seeing those "horror" pictures for roughly 30 years now. They didn't stop me from having my abortions, and they don't cause me any emotional grief now. Contrary to pro-life rhetoric, having an abortion does not automatically lead to "psychological trauma"."
I'm sorry to hear you felt abortion was the only solution to your problem. May I ask why you think the pictures don't have any affect? I'm interested to learn your views.
Paddy
Posts: 43 | From: Kent, England | Registered: Jan 2003
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
sure thing, chast. *crunch, crunch*
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Paddy : as I said to you before, a lot of NI residents come over to the north-west and give a local address, as there are a lot of Irish people both North and South in Liverpool and Manchester. Northern Ireland is still part of the UK.
I tend to agree with the other posters. You're not actually debating at all, just putting forward lots of statistics, which do not mean very much and can easily be interpreted differently. Given that I don't think you are likely to reach your aim, what practical suggestions do you have for reducing the number of abortions?
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Paddy Leahy
Apprentice
# 3888
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Posted
May I ask some of you to clarify your stance. Many have stated 'abortion NEEDS to be available'.
But why does it?
We have adoption. There are numerous organisations who give financial and non-financial support. Because of our welfare system no woman should abort because she is poor.
Why is there a need for it?
Paddy
Posts: 43 | From: Kent, England | Registered: Jan 2003
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
Paddy : try talking to women who have had an abortion and maybe you would realise that life isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
Side question Paddy: is it OK for me to put sperm with eggs in a test tube to study conception? (I am a biotechnologist).
Is it OK for me to let zygotes split a few times in a test tube to make stem cells that might save human lives? Or have I created an individual human being and killed it? Am I guilty of "abortion."
In short, is your definition of abortion limited to a location inside a living woman?
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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Paddy Leahy
Apprentice
# 3888
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Posted
Jim T:
"Early on, her rights outweigh those of the fetus because it is not fully human in my view"
At what point do you assert it is human? And what do you use to judge this?
I disagree with the second paragraph since you're putting arguments into my mouth which I would never use. I prefer to argue this using secular reasoning rather than any Catholic arguments.
To be totally honest I became pro-life before I even knew the church was opposed to abortion so I am not the best apologetic for the church's stance on the issue.
It's not about God's will though, its about whether killing is right or wrong. Besides since we can never actually know what God's will is, how would we know whether we're blocking it or not?
"Paddy can't have 1,000 posts in him."
I have free time over the next few days but obviously we have lives to lead.
ChastMastr:
"Paddy, this really is dangerously close to trolling, and the way you don't seem to be responding to people's concerns over your posting style and single-mindedness does not bode well"
To be honest I don't quite understand what the problem is. Please make it clearer. I am active on a number of boards and this is the first time people have ever complained. It's probably because this board has a different culture to other boards.
"non-listening, one-issue crusader"
Certainly I am no one-issuer, just not inspired to post in other threads at the moment. Furthermore if 'non-listening' means not changing my mind every 5 minutes then I am quite happy to be classified as a non-listener. I have been involved with pro-life politics for quite some time despite my young age and have seen just about every argument on all sides of the coin. There comes a point when you form a rigid conclusion as all human beings do when they have studied a topic or issue for long enough.
MerseyMike:
"Paddy : as I said to you before, a lot of NI residents come over to the north-west and give a local address"
I'd like to see the evidence for this.
"You're not actually debating at all"
Sorry but I think we must have different interpretations of what debating is.
Paddy
Posts: 43 | From: Kent, England | Registered: Jan 2003
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Paddy Leahy
Apprentice
# 3888
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Posted
Merseymike:
"Paddy : try talking to women who have had an abortion and maybe you would realise that life isn't as simple as you make it out to be."
I've talked to many women who have had abortions. Sadly my own aunt also had an abortion. There are also many in the pro-life movement who have had abortions (often the experience itself made them pro-life).
JimT:
"Side question Paddy: is it OK for me to put sperm with eggs in a test tube to study conception?"
If the embryo is killed afterwards then it is not okay.
"Is it OK for me to let zygotes split a few times in a test tube to make stem cells that might save human lives?"
Again no because it involves the destruction of human life. Additionally embryonic stem cell has proved to be a bit of a no-hoper. In Europe it is illegal to patent an embryo or own it in any form, so therefore scientists would be unable to make any profit from embryonic stem cell research. That is European Union law which Britain is a part of.
Secondly there is the high possibility of creating cancer (sure you know what I'm talking about so will avoid long patronising descriptions!) as well as tissue rejection.
Adult stem cell research has proven a much greater success. In Britain the biggest success has been with a man cured of lukaemia (sp?) by using adult stem cells from his own bone marrow. Embryonic stem cell research has yet to provide any successes.
It is hard to justify the destruction of human life for the sake of others. Yet these 'others' will not be deprived of cures which are fast being developed by adult stem cell research (as well as stem cells from the umbilical cord).
"In short, is your definition of abortion limited to a location inside a living woman?"
No.
Paddy
Posts: 43 | From: Kent, England | Registered: Jan 2003
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Host hat firmly ON
quote:
"These are discussion boards. Single issue campaigners are not permitted here, by Commandment 8. "
That is absurd. This is hardly a single issue. Such a commandment is nothing short of bigotry.
Hostly *cough*
It's traditional Paddy that we cut newbies a certain amount of slack.
However ignoring the commandments for this board is NOT an option.
This is commandment 8 which you read and agreed to abide by when you signed up.
quote:
8. Don't crusade
Please don't use these boards to promote personal crusades. This space is not here for people to pursue specific agendas and win converts. Information-sharing and debate about a range of issues and campaigns are welcome, of course, but single-issue preaching and crusading are not
At the moment you seem to be on course for breaking this commandment by crusading on an anti-abortion platform - which is why other posters have drawn it to your attention.
I am now intervening as a host.
Pay attention as this commandment applies to you and you are obliged to respect it and the rulings of the hosts.
At the moment it is still possible to take the charitable view that you are new here, that you do intend to post on other threads and issues and that you have just started on this one because it is dear to your heart.
However if you continue posting solely on the issue of abortion and show little sign of respecting the views of others, this matter will be revisited and you will be warned again about it.
If you continue in this vein, it is only fair to warn you, that single-issue crusading can ultimately lead to suspension, but hopefully, that won't happen if you pay attention to what others are trying to tell you about how these boards work.
It might be a good idea (as someone else has suggested) for you to look around and get more of a feel for the nature of boards and to take up posting on other threads whilst cooling it a bit on this one.
If you want to dispute the nature of the Ship's commandments then the place to do it is not here in Purgatory but on The Styx board.
However whilst you post here in Purgatory you must respect these rules. They are not optional.
Louise
hosting off
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Eanswyth
Ship's raven
# 3363
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
(((pyx_e))) want some popcorn?
paddy, are you the slightest bit iterested in aything other than abortion? why not look aroud the ship a bit at some other threads, before you get yourself tossed overboard for crusading?
Nicole, can I have some? Just looked: 14 posts, 13 on this thread. But not a one-trick-pony at all. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 1323 | From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2002
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus (The Coot):
You know what I wish? I tell yas what I wish. I wish the rent-a-crowds of singing, sloganeering 'christians' that harangue women going into abortion clinics would do something that might actually help reduce the number of abortions.
Like oooh. Becoming known as people who will give non-judgemental support and material assistance: furniture, clothing, childcare, school bursaries - would be a good place to start.
Wasn't there a bunch of people in USA who were shooting abortion doctors or nurses at one point?
It can't really help women to change their minds to be picketed and shouted at as they arrive at abortion clinics; they've already struggled enough to make the decision to have the abortion.
There are a few groups in the UK who provide material and emotional help for girls, teenagers and children who want to keep their babies. There are a few houses where they can go and stay and be looked after, much like in an extended family. There was also a RC initiative when a bishop or something offered material help to women who would choose not to have terminations. That got a lot of criticism.
But it is still extremely difficult to survive and thrive with a baby, particularly because these groups only help for a short while. They don't help all the way through childhood. Also they don't give education to the mothers.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
sure thing eanswyth, how do you like it?
paddy, ignoring a host is considered a Really Bad Thing To Do around here. just a hint.
*mmmmm.... caramal corn, my fav.*
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
Paddy, may I study the way in which sperm penetrate the egg cell membrane so long as I kill the two haploid cells before their nuclei fuse?
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Grabs some Popcorn from nicole, sits down. Hey Jim T if Paddy makes a 1000 posts I will eat my hat. And if you type a 1000 posts on this thread I may eat you also.
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
hostly reminder to other posters
quote:
4. Take all personal arguments to Hell
If you get into a personality conflict with other shipmates, you have two simple choices: end the argument or take it to Hell. Personal arguments are not allowed outside Hell because they disrupt and derail conversation on the other boards. If you take your argument to Hell, please read the guidelines for that board. Hell is not a free-for-all. Bigotry, racism, sexism and general nastiness will catch the most unwanted attention of the hosts.
L.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I haven't posted much on Purgatory for a while, but I had to jump in and make two statements:
1. I do, genuinely, believe abortion should be against the law on the sorts of grounds mentioned by Erin and others, above
BUT
2. Two words, repeated indefinitely: Trip-trap, trip-trap, trip-trap...
I.e., Paddy, this really is dangerously close to trolling, and the way you don't seem to be responding to people's concerns over your posting style and single-mindedness does not bode well, as far as I can tell. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong on the subject of abortion or its legality, or for that matter on brain death or geography; if you're violating the rules, or the spirit of the rules, of courteous debate here on the Ship, then eventually a Host will get sick of it, and not only that but no one will listen to you, and you'll never convince anyone of the rightness of your cause because everyone will have written you off as a non-listening, one-issue crusader. Whether you're right or wrong.
David
(Say, Nicole, can my popcorn be salt-free? Thanks.)
I have to say I agree with David and Co. on ths one.
I don't usually say much on this topic [in fact I don't think I have said one word on it since becoming a member of SoF in May 2002], not because I don't feel strongly about it, nor because I don't have anything to say...but because it doesn't seem to be profitable [I have been in enough long debates with people very close to me, who are the ones who bring it up & push it...my step-mom, step-sister [studying to become a doctor], ex-bf...etc]. If they could not convince me it is not murder, then I doubt anyone else can. I only share here since I might give somebody somewhere a better view of pro-life people, God only knows we have enough bad media (and unfortunately some of it deserved).
Instead of standing outside Planned Parenthood and hassling people, or worse...I just support a Clinic that supports and helps women find alternative ways to keep their baby [listening ear, free medical care, helping to find a place to live...](or have the baby adopted), rather then abort. The women who do chose to abort are not hassled. I have looked at the guidelines into being an on-call consoler and in the written requirements for this organization it says "must listen without non-judgemental attitude". I am not doing anything at the moment since I do not feel led to but I do give money to them and promote them to those who wish to hear about them. I am leaving their name out purposesly for fear some may think I am trying to promote some organization.
Anyhoo..the thing that impresses me about this organization is that the leader met with somebody from Planned Parenthood (had lunch with her) and discussed abortion. The lady from Planned Parenthood said "I feel it is a necessary evil". The lady from this pro-life organization responded something paraphrase "I wish to make work on making abortion an undesirable choice".
Some of the ways they do that is show the expentant mothers, with their consent, an ultrasound of their unborn. Not all mother decide to not abort but for some, that has made a difference.
The way we cut down abortion is helping women and men keep their babies...money, good medical care, education...and most of all loving them in a non-judgemental place.
I do have friends who have had abortions and I do not bring it up nor love them less.
I wish the word pro-life was not associated with fanatics who bomb clincs...but I fear in America...it already has.
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
Pls Note:
"I wish to make work on making abortion an undesirable choice" should be:
"I wish to work on making abortion an undesirable choice"
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
quote:
You really weren't paying attention when someone explained above why the whole "it's murder" argument hasn't changed the minds of those like me who think abortion is morally wrong but should be legal, were you?[/QB]
I think it should remain legal. I just think if every couple who were ready to jump into bed together were shown those pictures then it wouldn't be.
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sola Scriptura
Shipmate
# 2229
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Posted
I am glad that this topic has been raised as I too feel that Anglicans have tended to hide from this issue. For far too long we have been concerned with "isms" and not directly addressed the issue of the sanctity of human life. An asault on human life is an asult on Christ for he too on our humanity.
We can't remain quiet on this subject and merely say it is the woman's right to choose where is the rights of the baby in the womb? It may be vital that Christians work together with Orthodox Jews and Muslims to end this legalised evil.
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Used to be Gunner.
Posts: 576 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I'm still hoping (foolishly perhaps?) that the question of the thread actually has something to do with the thread. Paddy hasn't defined his question, merely regurgitated some very familiar pro-life material. Very interesting and all that, but hardly relative to his own question, at least not without his further defining what he intended by it.
As we've all noticed, and as Paddy has admitted, there is no room for discussion about this topic on this...er.. discussion board, at least not as far as he's concerned. So if
a) no discussion is possible and
b) the question isn't even relevant then
there's really no point in taking any more notice of the thread. Just my opinion.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gunner:
I am glad that this topic has been raised as I too feel that Anglicans have tended to hide from this issue. For far too long we have been concerned with "isms" and not directly addressed the issue of the sanctity of human life. An asault on human life is an asult on Christ for he too on our humanity.
We can't remain quiet on this subject and merely say it is the woman's right to choose where is the rights of the baby in the womb? It may be vital that Christians work together with Orthodox Jews and Muslims to end this legalised evil.
Hooray, someone who's having a go at the title question! Gunner maybe you could enlighten me as to which Anglicans are meant, then, by the thread title; the entire Anglican Communion membership, particular member churches within the communion, specific policies that you are aware of, or specific groups of Anglicans that you feel ought to be concerned with campaigning for the illegalization of abortion?
At last, an opportunity for some clarification!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paddy Leahy:
Abortion is not an individual issue. It infringes the human rights of another human being. Furthermore, by reducing the birth rate it becomes a public issue. Britain's birth rate is now 1.6 which is well below replacement level. This means less workers and therefore less taxpayers meaning that, at current levels, sooner or later there will not be enough funds for the NHS. Even right now the state pension is under threat. I could go on for pages and suggest we leave any related debate about the birth rate to a different thread.
Wait just a minute here. This argument is probably the most self-centered, callous argument against abortion I have ever seen. Women shouldn't have abortions cause it means there aren't enough taxpayers to support old people? Are you serious?
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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.
Posts: 17140 | From: 330 miles north of paradise | Registered: Mar 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Paddy Leahy:
Abortion is not an individual issue. It infringes the human rights of another human being. Furthermore, by reducing the birth rate it becomes a public issue. Britain's birth rate is now 1.6 which is well below replacement level. This means less workers and therefore less taxpayers meaning that, at current levels, sooner or later there will not be enough funds for the NHS. Even right now the state pension is under threat. I could go on for pages and suggest we leave any related debate about the birth rate to a different thread.
Wait just a minute here. This argument is probably the most self-centered, callous argument against abortion I have ever seen. Women shouldn't have abortions cause it means there aren't enough taxpayers to support old people? Are you serious?
I hate to say it, but these were many of the reasons that abortion was extremely difficult to obtain under a certain German regime I won't bring up, but just allude to gently. How instrumentalist!
Look. It's either evil or it isn't. That's just the first question. We won't know 'til we're dead who was right about this, and I hope that God will have mercy on those of us who were wrong.
Next (in my mind) comes the issue of access to abortion. I concede that both sides of the issue have not exactly done credit to their organizations by use of statistics. Now I'll be instrumentalist. I won't tell you my view of whether abortion is right or wrong. But I believe that abortion must be available, partly because no matter what you do, women will seek it out, whether it's legal or not, and we'll be back to the way it was before -- it will be the province of the rich to have them, and the seamy underworldy sort of abortion trade will pop up again. I really think that this is like alcohol; prohibition will do almost nothing to stem it.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
a host a host my kingdom for a host.....
It isn't a Dead Horse yet, Pyx_e. If it's dealt with extensively enough, perhaps it will be one day.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
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Posted
Duchess wote: quote:
I have looked at the guidelines into being an on-call consoler and in the written requirements for this organization it says "must listen without non-judgemental attitude".
Is that the same non-judgmental attitude without which our original poster is speaking? Aside from what I'll assume is a little double negative problem, yours was a thoughtful post, Duchess. Thank you.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
Laura said,
"I believe that abortion must be available, partly because no matter what you do, women will seek it out, whether it's legal or not, and we'll be back to the way it was before -- it will be the province of the rich to have them, and the seamy underworldy sort of abortion trade will pop up again. I really think that this is like alcohol; prohibition will do almost nothing to stem it."
I think that may be true; one of my friends died from an illegal abortion before the law changed. And even now it's legal, many abortions are being carried out in expensive private facilities; it's not always easy to get one, particularly early on, in the NHS.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266
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Posted
Paddy, you are being me squared. Being a newbie, that won't mean as much to you as it does to the others, but believe me, it isn't good.
In my usual arragance, I was sure I would have much to add here, but have come away with a different impression. To many of you, both those I agree with and those I do not. ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
In my field (mental health), an extreme and unsubtle pro-choice stance is usual, though not universal. As a consequence, most of my discussions have been with people fully convinced of the unwavering misogyny of pro-lifers. They are also unable to even discuss limitations such as waiting periods or parental notification. While I have found more flexibility on the prolife side, it is seldom enormous, and there are those as reflexively rigid there also.
This seems to be the first group which seemed to contain a healthy percentage of people I might actually discuss this with. Bless you all. No. Bless about 70% of you.
As is usual with me, I am more anti-anti something than I am for something. I start from a strongly prolife perspective, mostly from finding that the prochoice groups don't fight fair. That said, I am already of the opinion that implantation is as defensible a beginning of life as conception.
Paddy makes my head hurt. But the rest of us can still teach each other something.
My opening contribution: the issues of rape, incest, and life of the mother are important in the philosophical discussion, but are rare enough to remove them from the practical side of the discussion. My request would be that people keep that distinction in mind in their arguments.
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formerly Logician
Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002
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