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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: What causes poverty?
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote from chukovsky quote:
You will note that I said the true value. Not the monetary value. Do you really believe that the true value of a person is what someone is willing to pay for their labour? If so, I strongly suggest you reread your gospels.
I think you are the only person posting on this thread who has equated the value of a person and the value of that person's labor.
You are right that this idea is completely contrary to the gospels.
My question is, who besides you has said it?
This is what the current systems says every time it fails to pay someone what their labour is really worth, but only what another - fallible, and greedy - human being thinks it is worth.
All those who say "but a person's labour IS REALLY worth what the market is prepared to pay them" (e.g. Scot, kenwritez) are saying precisely the above.
Nope, nope, nope. I have never, ever argued that a person's intrinsic worth is only that which the market is paying for him, and I do not believe such. It is anathema to me.
We as humans are infinitely valuable simply because of who we are, not for what we produce. A sculptor, a computer programmer, a short order cook, a Welsh prince, a coffee bean picker, a drunk asleep in the doorway, all have the same intrinsic worth: Priceless. Jesus' death on the cross for our sins defines the value we hold for Him, even if we don't recognize it ourselves.
Your worth as an employee is precisely that which your employer is willing to pay for you, not a thin coin more or less. The worth of a butter churn is exactly that amount which I am willing to pay for it.
Your statement, quote:
This is what the current systems says every time it fails to pay someone what their labour is really worth, but only what another - fallible, and greedy - human being thinks it is worth.
is passionate, and I respect that, but it is also wrong-headed. However, I wonder if you've really thought this through? You're equating a person's worth as human being to God and to other humans as the worth of their labor, and this is absolutely incorrect. By your logic, even though you did not intend this outcome, if we apply it absolutely, the worth of handicapped people is the same as what they might be paid for their labor. Since employers will not pay them to do jobs they cannot do, therefore they have no worth.
My worth as computer support technician is that which my employer decides. My worth as human being is what God decides.
A different employer may value me more; if so, I can change employers. But who determines TRUE worth? You? Me? We can't -- according to you, we're "fallible, and greedy," remember? If we get together in committee, we're still fallible and greedy, there's just more of us.
By your own logic, then, no one, absolutely no one, can be paid what they're "truly" worth because only God make can make that judgment, and He's not down here handing out paychecks. (He's certainly absent from Nanny Ogg's payroll system in the TICTH Hell thread! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
Intrinsic worth is not the same or even related to the worth of one's labor. Making those two connect is like saying our identity as a son or daughter of God is related to what name we were given at birth.
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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KenWritez
Shipmate
# 3238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by linzc:
quote:
Originally posted by logician:
I don't think capitalism is based on greed or selfishness at all.
Perhaps you are correct. I will think about and respond to your post at length later. For the moment, suffice it to say that I was not arguing this in isolation. Rather I was responding to kenwritez' suggestion that socialism was flawed inasmuch as it ignored human nature, and by implication that capitalism did not.
Mea culpa! I apologize; I miscommunicated. I did not mean to imply capitalism ignored or was immune to human nature; it is responsive to it, for better or worse.
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"The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd." --Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
My blog: http://oxygenofgrace.blogspot.com
Posts: 11102 | From: Left coast of Wonderland, by the rabbit hole | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bonzo
Shipmate
# 2481
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot
To continue the butter churn analogy, imagine that you are buying my churns at a price which provides me a living wage. Over time, more and more people decide that they don’t really need a butter churn until, finally, you are the only one buying them. You are now providing my entire living wage. Eventually you say “The hell with this!” and get your butter at the market, instead. Now I have no income. I would have been better off if, instead of paying me an inflated wage, you had helped me expand my market, or switch to building refrigerators, or start a market. Charity is good, but charity in the disguise of sound economics is an unsustainable solution.
Scot,
I sense a lot of honest thought behind your posts. I agree entirely that we should help to broaden African markets, but we can do this in addition to paying a fair price for goods. It's no good encouraging africans to switch to producing something else if they can't sell that for a fair price either.
The poorer a person is, the more vulnerable they become to exploitation, by the rich or by their own corrupt governments.
Democracy can only really work where a population has the time and resources to become educated or even to take an interest in the issues. If you have to work for 16 hours a day you have little time left for political activism.
Capitalism can only really work where there is an open market and where there is the safety net of benefit to allow people to switch jobs or re-train without the fear of starvation. Also essential to the success of capitalism is a good education system and good uncorrupt government.
Scot, I'm sure we would find plenty to disagree on politically speaking! But I believe you when you say you have an honest desire for the best outcome for the poor, and on that we agree wholeheartedly.
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Love wastefully
Posts: 1150 | From: Stockport | Registered: Mar 2002
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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266
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Posted
Bonzo, perhaps if I gave a minor addition it would be clearer.
I doubt very much there are many of us who would say "Hey, I've been deluded by the historical sample group from which I draw my conclusions." Once we recognize how flawed information might have affected us, we make some attempt to correct for that.
When I was younger we brought the children to mock-medieval events, and were among those who dreamed out loud about how nice it would have been to live then. But even the cynical books about the era, the Twain's and Tuchman's fell short of the actually misery.
kenwritez: I'm not sure why I bother to make points, seeing that you do it so much better. Bravo.
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formerly Logician
Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bonzo:
Scot, I'm sure we would find plenty to disagree on politically speaking! But I believe you when you say you have an honest desire for the best outcome for the poor, and on that we agree wholeheartedly.
Thank you for that, Bonzo. The recognition of mutual goodwill is something is it too often missing from these discussions.
quote:
I agree entirely that we should help to broaden African markets, but we can do this in addition to paying a fair price for goods. It's no good encouraging africans to switch to producing something else if they can't sell that for a fair price either.
I think that where we disagree is the question of how a "fair price" is to be determined. I perceive that you are defining it as "what the farmer needs it to be". I believe that if you define a fair price as being anything other than a fair market value (as opposed to the mess we have now), all you are doing is offering charity. Again, there is nothing wrong with charity, but it is not a long-term solution.
Besides, I suggested that farmers switch to crops they can EAT, not just better cash crops.
quote:
The poorer a person is, the more vulnerable they become to exploitation, by the rich or by their own corrupt governments.
True. You could also correlate vulnerability to dependence on governmental or charitable programs. I think we could agree that the goal is to get people out of poverty and off of outside support. Only then are they reasonably secure from exploitation.
quote:
Democracy can only really work where a population has the time and resources to become educated or even to take an interest in the issues. If you have to work for 16 hours a day you have little time left for political activism.
I strongly suspect that if there was a real election taking place, there would be no shortage of politcal activists educating the people on the issues. On the other hand, if the culture is such that the people refuse to take an interest, I'm not sure how the matter can be improved.
quote:
Capitalism can only really work where there is an open market and where there is the safety net of benefit to allow people to switch jobs or re-train without the fear of starvation. Also essential to the success of capitalism is a good education system and good uncorrupt government.
You are correct that an open market and reasonably honest government are essential to the success of capitalism. However, the safety net and educational system are extras. As evidence I offer the United States, the world's current leader in (sort of) free market capitalism. This nation experienced its formative years and initial growth with little in the way of standardized education or broad social programs. I'm not arguing against those things, only saying that they are not fundamental to a successful economy.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky
Glad you're reading Christian Aid. I think you'll find that they don't think unfettered markets are the best for people.
I said I read it, not that I agree with everything they say! Besides, if you review my posts, I have already acknowledged that true free market capitalism is an engine with too much horsepower for a rickety cart. Some protections are needed in the short term, but in the long term free markets are a large part of what is needed.
I agree with you on the importance of educated women with financial resources. (I am also in favor of educated men with financial resources.) I agree with you about the need for people to be able to afford health care and schooling for their children.
So are you saying that if we just reform trade so that the African farmers have a free but somewhat protected market, the rest will sort itself out? I am skeptical, but I would like to think you are right.
scot
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Basket Case
Shipmate
# 1812
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Posted
quote:
So are you saying that if we just reform trade so that the African farmers have a free but somewhat protected market, the rest will sort itself out? I am skeptical, but I would like to think you are right.
scot
What makes you skeptical, Scot? Is it related to this other statement of yours?
quote:
On the other hand, if the culture is such that the people refuse to take an interest (in their government), I'm not sure how the matter can be improved.
I don't know any cultures like that - do you?
Which cultures are they?
Posts: 1157 | From: Pomo (basket) country | Registered: Nov 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
However, none of this will do anything about the corrupt African governments or the lack of knowledge with regard to basic sanitation and health issues. Thus, violence, crime, AIDS, and other communicable diseases are likely to continue unabated, and so will poverty.
Not quite unabated. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
It does seem as though progress is slow in many third world countries, and that they appear to be trapped in vicious cycles. But if you have visited Africa regularly over the past twenty-five years, as I have, you would see amazing changes taking place.
While good and bad governments come and go, there is a steady increase in access to means of communication, transportation, education, and materials. There is a remarkable awareness of world events, and large numbers, for example, of Ghanaians, watch CNN, and other sources of information, daily.
Yesterday, I met with a group of six American college students who had returned on Thursday from a semester project in Ghana. They were amazed that most of the things that they normally bought here in the USA were available in Accra. Among other projects, they purchased and installed a solar-powered pump for a school on the remote Kwahu Plateau, using materials that were all available in Ghana. This would have been impossible only a few years ago.
My point is simply that things change in remarkable ways over time. There are often setbacks and reverses due to events such as wars and revolutions - but the overall direction is towards progress.
The irreversible world-wide trend is towards a shrinking of the globe, the rapid communication of technology, and the gradual communication of culture. Barring some kind of world holocaust, it seems inevitable that whatever is possible in one part of the world will soon be possible in others.
The real question, to my mind, is not whether poverty and disease will be reduced, but whether the price of that reduction will be the negative social characteristics that are common in western countries - isolation, familial instability, materialism, substance abuse, and other conditions that make life hard here, and in many ways more pleasant in Africa.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracia:
[QUOTE]What makes you skeptical, Scot? Is it related to this other statement of yours?
I wrote at some length in the OP about the complexities I see in the problem of African poverty.
quote:
I don't know any cultures like that - do you? Which cultures are they? [/QB]
The accounts I have read of indigenous Africans suggest that there is not a widespread sense of concern about political matters. Of course that is a function of education, but any such education implies a change to the existing culture.
If you have some first-hand knowledge of the situation, I would welcome your input.
scot
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
Thank you Freddy. That is the most hopeful thing I have read on this subject in a very long time!
scot
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266
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Posted
I think noting the need for some reasonably honest government as a companion to free markets is well taken (and I wish I had thought of it first). Albania, for example, has plenty of free markets just now, but it's not doing them any good. I sometimes despair that Romania will not ever put the necessary structures in place to support a market economy. There's not much incentive to build a better building at a lower price if the contract is going to go to someone's nephew anyway.
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formerly Logician
Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002
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Bonzo
Shipmate
# 2481
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Posted
quote:
You are correct that an open market and reasonably honest government are essential to the success of capitalism. However, the safety net and educational system are extras. As evidence I offer the United States, the world's current leader in (sort of) free market capitalism. This nation experienced its formative years and initial growth with little in the way of standardized education or broad social programs. I'm not arguing against those things, only saying that they are not fundamental to a successful economy.
I'd agree that capitalism can make a successful start without the safety net, and that growth can start before education really needs to get going. But even in the United States which was populated by a high proportion of entrepreneurs flooding into a country with vast natural resources, unfettered capitalism would produce a class of extremely poor people. It's only by limiting the lowest level of income that extreme poverty has been prevented.
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Love wastefully
Posts: 1150 | From: Stockport | Registered: Mar 2002
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Hull Hound
Shipmate
# 2140
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by Bonzo:
Scot, I'm sure we would find plenty to disagree on politically speaking! But I believe you when you say you have an honest desire for the best outcome for the poor, and on that we agree wholeheartedly.
Thank you for that, Bonzo. The recognition of mutual goodwill is something is it too often missing from these discussions.
Here here! Scot have you been praying again? There’s a kind of mellow insistence about your posts, very effective. ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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ahhh ... Bisto!
Posts: 1167 | From: Hull | Registered: Jan 2002
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Paulo
Apprentice
# 165
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Posted
I'm sorry if this seems rushed, or if I touch on past arguments- I'm tired and could only quickly read through the arguments already posted. But that wont stop me...
How to make it better, well heres a start:
1. I'm incredibly supprized at the small mention of debt. For every £1 flowing into developing countries as aid £1 flows back in debt service. (Globally not talking of Britain.)
2. Trade not aid should work, but as mentioned trade rules are unfair. For example, europe subsidies its farmers (CAP) but other places are not allowed to through capitalist free market policies. Then when we have excess food we go and sell to Africa cheap (highly simplified) and we all go away with a warm feeling. However, we've just put farmers out of business who can't plant next year.
3. The WTO, world bank etc. are not fair organisations. Bullying is a way of life (as each country gets one vote people use the threat of withdrawal of aid to push through policies that will benefit them). Also who do you think funds them? Independant? no way. Also most poor countries cant afford the required number of delegates to activly take part in meetings, ie multiple meetings happen at once, lots of reading and only 1 delegate.
So how did it get like this? I've written 2000 words on this and I still dont know. Basically lots of reasons including animals, size of land, alphabet structure etc etc
So why as christains should we care? Because God does. Look at any part of the bible and you wont be far away from injustice verses about poor, homeless, opressed etc. However some 'good' ones
James 5v1-5
"Warning to Rich Oppressors
1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. 2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter"
Isaiah 58 v6-11
"6 "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-
when you see the naked, to clothe him,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness [1] will go before you,
and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
"If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.
11 The LORD will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
and will strengthen your frame.
You will be like a well-watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never fail. "
Link to christain social justice page:
SPEAK
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"The love of God is Folly"
Posts: 29 | From: South England | Registered: May 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paulo:
So why as christains should we care? Because God does.
Thank you, Paulo. Rich nations have a responsibility to help, not profit from, poor ones.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266
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Posted
Freddy, where does the "nations" part come in? I think that is not a ridiculous idea, but it is a leap that people make without having thought it through. It is not obvious to me, at least.
For General Interest: Some of the chapter titles in PJ O'Rourke's Eat The Rich.
Good Capitalism (Wall Street)
Bad Capitalism (Albania)
Good Socialism (Sweden)
Bad Socialism (Cuba)
How to Make Nothing From Everything (Tanzania)
How to Make Everything from Nothing (Hong Kong)
How to Have the Worst of Both Worlds (Shanghai)
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formerly Logician
Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by logician:
Freddy, where does the "nations" part come in? I think that is not a ridiculous idea, but it is a leap that people make without having thought it through. It is not obvious to me, at least.
Good point. So you are saying that the obligation is on the part of individuals, not the nation itself? I'm just thinking that governments are the logical agency for much of this kind of help.
I've been thinking about the nature of this obligation because of the way that my own church is organized.
We have a central accounting system, with all church employees paid from a central office, and the different congregations then reimbursing the main organization.
This is a very handy system, but it breaks down in parts of the world where reimbursement is not possible - such as Ghana. So salaries there are outright grants, the moral obligation of the richer part of the church to the poorer.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
A worry that has not been raised so far. Free-market capitalism works well in some places, but it does tend to lead towards astonishing levels of consumption. Through advertising, producers not only respond to markets but attempt to manipulate them, generating artificial demand. Capitalism is a blind force that pays no attention to the future supply of resources, but urges, say, fishing industries to become more and more efficient at catching and selling fish without a thought to maintaining stocks.
We need forms of development that are not just good for a few and will not hit the buffers in a few years' time. I think this has to entail regulation.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
hatless, much of what you say is true to a point. However, you anthropomorphize capitalism a bit more I believe than is warranted. Morality is the domain of people, not economic philosophies.
Is there a system which you think would serve the African poor better than free market capitalism? What is it, and why?
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
Paulo, of course we should care. That is the underlying assumption of this thread. The question is, what should we do about the problem?
I agree with you regarding the need to reform the WTO. I can see that debt is also a problem, but my uninformed hunch is that you may have vastly oversimplified the situation.
I must take exception to one thing you wrote:
quote:
For example, europe subsidies its farmers (CAP) but other places are not allowed to through capitalist free market policies.
The policies to which you are referring are definitely not free market-based.
You mentioned a number of factors which contributed to the creation of the problem. I'd like to hear more. Is there anything in your understanding of the wildlife or the alphabet which suggests a possible solution the the persistent African proverty?
scot
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I can't be certain but I think poverty is caused by poor people. Get rid of all those poor people, and there won't be any more poverty.
Reader Alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Is there a system which you think would serve the African poor better than free market capitalism? What is it, and why?
As I have tried to say, but probably not clearly enough, if the genuine cost of an article were borne by the consumer, including both environmental* and social* costs, then this would be a lot fairer.
Environmental costs include the effect on the livelihood of poor people of global warming due to manufacture and transport of goods, as their livelihoods will be more severely affected than ours.
Social costs include pensions etc. but also e.g. the amount a country or a family needs to educate its workforce/children, the costs to the family associated with having the breadwinner forced to move away from home to find work.
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This space left intentionally blank. Do not write on both sides of the paper at once.
Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
As I have tried to say, but probably not clearly enough, if the genuine cost of an article were borne by the consumer, including both environmental* and social* costs, then this would be a lot fairer.
No, I heard you. I just can't figure out how to translate the idea into a workable concept. How could the "genuine" cost of an article be determined? I am not being difficult for sport (this time ). In my understanding of economics, this concept is not definable - sort of like a square circle.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Karin 3, you make a lot of good points and some I disagree with. Since I am short on time, let me just throw out a few comments. According to their website, Nestle (the company you referred to) stopped promoting their infant formula 20 years ago. // Regarding health care, prevention is far better (and cheaper) than cure. The first steps are education, sanitation, and nutrition. // I am not sure which dictators you are thinking of when you say that some of them care about our opinions. We are consistently unsuccessful in pressuring small dictatorships into just about anything. // Perhaps there is a role for labor unions in some of these areas. I am firmly opposed to them in the US, but I readily admit that they played a valuable role during the industrial revolution.
Scot, sorry I didn’t reply earlier, but I’ve been rather preoccupied. As far as Nestle is concerned Spong has shown that things might not be quite as they would have us think. I'm not sure who to believe in this case.
With healthcare, I agree that prevention is better than cure, but with the best will in the world you cannot prevent all disease or accidents, so good medicine etc is important, too.
Maybe dictators don’t care about our opinions. I’m not sure about that either. Obviously Amnesty International and other groups have some success, but perhaps that is with elected regimes and it is by no means complete success even then. Perhaps that thought was a little over optimistic.
I am pleased to see no-one suggests that the work of Christian Aid and the Fair Trade Movement are a total waste of time, as was previously implied on another thread.
We have to consider how long it took us in the developed part of the world to achieve what we have. We have made a lot of mistakes and some of our wealth is based on oppression, past and present. Our Western lifestyle is far from ideal, so we wouldn't want developing countries merely to copy us.
Some of the posts make some very interesting points and I am finding them very informative.
To improve the situation in many countries much change is needed inmany areas. Christians can play their part by encouraging their own governments to put political pressure on bad regimes and support good policies implemented by foreign governments. We can also attempt to lead the way by not being greedy consumers and being willing to share our own resources with those in need, whether that be our neighbours, the homeless in another town, victims of man-made and natural disasters in far flung places, or villagers in distant lands who need clean water supplies and elementary education for their children.
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Nestlé have consistently claimed they're not guilty. Baby Milk Action consistently find that they are. I don't believe Nestlé for one minute, but I fear further discussion would put the Ship at legal action risk, so I would wait for a hostly ruling before taking it any further.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
As I have tried to say, but probably not clearly enough, if the genuine cost of an article were borne by the consumer, including both environmental* and social* costs, then this would be a lot fairer.
No, I heard you. I just can't figure out how to translate the idea into a workable concept. How could the "genuine" cost of an article be determined? I am not being difficult for sport (this time ). In my understanding of economics, this concept is not definable - sort of like a square circle.
It's a very, very long process and does require a new understanding of economics. Which is why it irritates me so much when people say the free markets are perfect and if you meddle with them God will smite you down.
Christian Aid, Oxfam and other organisations are beginning to realise this is the only way we'll be able to alleviate poverty so they are working hard on it. A hundred years ago people said there was no way you could have safety in factories and still make a profit. A hundred and fifty years ago slavery and child labour were seen as necessary for the market. Fifty years ago if you had suggested the polluter might need not to mess up the rivers, and that this was a cost that people might have to incorporate into goods, you'd have been laughed out of court.
kenwritez gave us a long and - he thinks - ridiculous example of a chocolate bar. Maybe he can't be bothered to think about all the people he is employing when he buys a chocolate bar, but anyone that is serious about ending poverty is going to have to do it. There are no short cuts. However, fortunately there are professionals on the case, and we only need to be informed consumers.
You might like to look at my success in the virtual stock exchange competition in the knockout quiz - I only chose ethical investments and I came third out of about 30 competitors. Ethical investments are the only ones that are rising at the moment.
Some more resources for you:
Fairtrade Foundation
NEF
Can I also say that if you ask a question about what causes poverty, and how to alleviate it, you do need to be prepared for the answer to a) involve some work for you and b) possibly involve a shift of mindset.
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Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
chukovsky, do you realize how condescending you are sounding? All I asked for was a practical explanation, not a lecture on how if I really want things to change I will have to do some work and re-educate myself.
I found the Christian Aid website to be interesting, and when I find time I will read up on the new ones you posted. However, I am not ignorant of economics, and I will not blindly trust these organizations to provide me with the "correct" answers. I am willing to explore the matter through discussion with you and others.
If all I get in response to my questions is a lecture and some links, I might as well just reply by posting links to the Hayek Center and the Cato Institute.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Bonzo
Shipmate
# 2481
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Posted
Scot,
I'd like to pick up on something you said in reply to Hatless.
quote:
However, you anthropomorphize capitalism a bit more I believe than is warranted. Morality is the domain of people, not economic philosophies.
I agree that capitalism is a philosophy and in itself can have no morals, but you seem to be suggesting that it's not possible to modify our economic philosopies to make their outcomes more morally acceptable to people?
IMO we create our economic philosophies to serve us, not the other way around. I have seen people shrug their shoulders when they see a system causing injustice, saying 'It's the system, we can't change it'. That's got to be absurd.
You ask what system we can practically use, if we don't use capitalism. Well I personally think capitalism is very useful but it needs to be controlled to make it useful rather than destructive. If economic powers such as Europe and the US got together they could pass laws which would make importing companies responsible for ensuring that the workers producing the raw materials got a reasonable wage. Such laws would have to be worded carefully, but if laws exist to prosecute people who use children for sex in foreign countries, I'm sure they could devise ones to curb the actions of exploitative companies.
Maybe you do this by setting a minimum wage which must be paid to the workers for the raw materials, only trading with countries who can demonstrate that this is happening.
The point is that while people keep saying 'it's capitalism, you can't interfere with it' then nothing will be done. The reason that people too often say this, is IMO because they don't want to change things because they know it would cost money and they're selfish.
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Love wastefully
Posts: 1150 | From: Stockport | Registered: Mar 2002
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Basket Case
Shipmate
# 1812
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Posted
I am a bit allergic to the frequently-encountered phenomenon (at least in the privileged circles I often travel in) of “blame-the-victim”.
It seems to often come in a package with,
“By golly, every single blessing I have is mine by dint of my own efforts, good character,etc.”.
That’s why I do find offensive, when persons in a privileged position - rather than focusing on thanking God for their privilege - seem to be thanking themselves , & truly believing that everyone could be so blessed, if they would just…fill in the blanks (work harder, not believe in free rides, etc.).
Posts: 1157 | From: Pomo (basket) country | Registered: Nov 2001
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Gracia said:
quote:
That’s why I do find offensive, when persons in a privileged position - rather than focusing on thanking God for their privilege - seem to be thanking themselves , & truly believing that everyone could be so blessed, if they would just…fill in the blanks (work harder, not believe in free rides, etc.).
Hmmm,
How about the "privileged" thanking God for their privilege and hard work AND you believing that everyone could be more blessed if they worked harder and didn't believe in free rides. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote from chukovsky quote:
kenwritez gave us a long and - he thinks - ridiculous example of a chocolate bar. Maybe he can't be bothered to think about all the people he is employing when he buys a chocolate bar, but anyone that is serious about ending poverty is going to have to do it. There are no short cuts. However, fortunately there are professionals on the case, and we only need to be informed consumers.
Maybe I am too cynical, but the idea of 'professionals on the case' worries me. They would have tremendous power, which reminds me of the saying, 'power corrupts'. I'm not saying they would all take bribes, but I believe some would because human nature is what it is.
The bribes would not only be offered by businesses who want their unfair practices ignored. They would also be offered by businesses who want their competitors put out of business, not to mention individuals who have grudges against someone.
I am extremely suspicious of power without accountability, and that's what we're talking about here.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Bonzo
Shipmate
# 2481
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Posted
quote:
Maybe I am too cynical, but the idea of 'professionals on the case' worries me. They would have tremendous power, which reminds me of the saying, 'power corrupts'. I'm not saying they would all take bribes, but I believe some would because human nature is what it is.
There are 'professionals on the case' of everything you buy trying to hoodwink you into parting with your cash through marketing and advertising, all of them part of the capitalist system which you uphold. Maybe you are not cynical enough.
People whose job it is to ensure that fairly traded goods are so marked, generally hold to higher principles. I'm not saying that it would be impossible to make mistakes, nor that it would be impossible for them to take bribes What I am saying is that I would far rather believe in these people than in the Prime Minister of Britain or the President of the USA.
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Love wastefully
Posts: 1150 | From: Stockport | Registered: Mar 2002
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Basket Case
Shipmate
# 1812
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to MadGeo:
I would be very happy to contrast my willingness to work hard, as professional nurse & highly successful single mother, against any geologist (a good friend of mine is married to a geologist, so I do know just how “hard” that work is).
Also, I would be willing to wager that, were you to go out into the vineyards around here, & match your ability to “work hard” against the Mexican laborers who harvest our food, that you would be fired in about 4 hours (max). Those laborers are so poor they cannot afford the expense of a car, so they bicycle, & team up 6 or more to a vehicle, to get to work.
Posts: 1157 | From: Pomo (basket) country | Registered: Nov 2001
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
Gracia,
I did not contrast YOUR willingness to work hard, I questioned your generalization (in a joking way) regarding privileged people "truly believing that everyone could be so blessed, if they would just…fill in the blanks (work harder, not believe in free rides, etc.)".
Your right, I do have an easy job NOW, I worked my giblets off to get where I am, including "mexican laborer" jobs for more than one year in High School (picking raspberries anyone???!!!!).
Care to rethink what you think you know about the "privileged"? Yes I am probably one of your "privileged" class NOW, but that doesn't mean I (or any other priviliged person) is automatically a bad person.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bonzo:
There are 'professionals on the case' of everything you buy trying to hoodwink you into parting with your cash through marketing and advertising, all of them part of the capitalist system which you uphold. Maybe you are not cynical enough.
I know that the marketers and advertisers are trying to separate me from my cash. It is very overt and obvious.
I worry about the motives of people who claim to have higher principles.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Bonzo
Shipmate
# 2481
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Posted
I daresay the marketeers and the advertisers, though you know about them, have more success with you than the Fair Trade charities who you distrust.
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Love wastefully
Posts: 1150 | From: Stockport | Registered: Mar 2002
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Basket Case
Shipmate
# 1812
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MadGeo
Since you haven't given me any new insights, why would i be rethinking my position?
I am very aware of the way that people become professionals. I am not criticizing them, as such: i am asking them to try to be honest with themselves, & us, when they say it is just "hard work" that separates the rich from the poor.
Posts: 1157 | From: Pomo (basket) country | Registered: Nov 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracia:
I would be very happy to contrast my willingness to work hard, as professional nurse & highly successful single mother, against any geologist (a good friend of mine is married to a geologist, so I do know just how “hard” that work is).
Pray, do tell.
I would like for you to explain to me how hard my work is, how you know that you work harder than I do, and while you are at it, you can explain how your horse got so high.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bonzo:
The point is that while people keep saying 'it's capitalism, you can't interfere with it' then nothing will be done.
Who said that? Not I.
I believe in the long run, free market capitalism will provide the best outcome for the poor, but it is not sacred. I have acknowledged previously on this thread that some protections will be needed, at least initially. But let's not fall into the warm fuzzy trap of thinking that just because a system appears to be moral or just, it is necessarily workable.
By the way, when I read the Fair Trade website this morning, my first reaction was that it is a fine example of free markets in action. People are given a clear choice. They will spend their money where their minds and consciences dictate. There is nothing wrong, and nothing anti-free market about that.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I think Gracia has a point.
When I was a lad, I won a scholarship to an independent school. Therefore I was rubbing noses with mostly wealthy people's offspring. I, however, was the son of a postman.
The attitude there was very much "your father should just work harder, then he'd have as much money as ours"
Bollocks.
I saw how tired my father was at the end of a day - he worked damned hard. I saw their fathers coming in at 6 o'clock still with energy to play with them. Mine came in at 8, after working overtime to make ends meet, too shattered to do anything above eat his tea and watch the news.
Hard work does not guarantee anything. This same father of mine is now disabled at the age of 60 from a stroke. I believe that overwork and nightmare shifts are partially to blame. For his hard work, this is what he got.
Is this Karl's Hard Luck Story? No. It's illustration of Gracia's point. So yes, implications of blame for a person's unfortunate position do rankle, no, they piss me off. The highest horses in this debate are the "I deserve my massive wealth because I worked hard" horses. You don't get massive wealth through hard work - you get through yours and a lot of other people's.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider:
The highest horses in this debate are the "I deserve my massive wealth because I worked hard" horses.
Any who exactly is riding that horse? Or are you just setting up a strawman and hoping that nobody will notice?
Or maybe you are trying to contribute to the topic by suggesting that some people are poor because other people don't think the first people work hard enough?
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
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Karin 3
Shipmate
# 3474
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Posted
I don't think it matters what jobs people do. Some people are gifted to be nurses, others lawyers. Some become postmen others become company directors. We are not all equal in that respect and it is good if we can accept that without being resentful.
However, it is important that whatever we do we are honest. It is not right for the lawyer to tell lies in order to improve his/her success rate and chances of promotion. We should not exploit others and company directors would do well to remember this. The postal services should do all they can to improve the postmen and -women's working conditions and ensure they have a living wage. Health services and all employers should do the same.
If this happened the world over everyone would be better off.
Also, if we are privileged we should see how we can help those less privileged than ourselves and not gloat.
This is where Christians can lead the way. They follow a master who values each human life and sees each of us as precious.
I'm pleased to hear this morning that the Co-op have decided that all their chocolate products will be fairly traded form now on. For the farmers in the co-operative in Ghana this means a stable wage that will not fluctuate according to world cocoa prices. The Co-op will pay above the market norm for the cocoa, so they have to be prepared to see a reduction in their profit. There will be no unscrupulous middlemen to deal with. The co-operative members also receive a cash bonus so that there can be schools for their children and 25 villages will be able to build wells.
The capitalist system isn't entirely bad, as everyone needs an incentive to work well. However, profit cannot be allowed to be the only guiding principle. Workers must be paid a living wage, which enables them to have all the basics like clean water, decent food and accommodation, medicines and healthcare when needed and education for their children.
Society at large may not always see the need for this attitude, so Christians must help them to understand the benefits for society as a whole as well as set an example. This is how we can be salt and light.
And I'm not saying we must all make sudden drastic changes to our lifestyles, but prayerfully work towards bringing our lives in line with Christ's teaching. A big house, for example, might not be a bad thing if it can be used for the greater good, but we must not fool ourselves into thinking we need more than we do, nor should we put our trust in our possessions - although we should not be totally imprudent and then end up relying on other
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Inspiration to live more generously, ethically and sustainably
Posts: 417 | From: South East England | Registered: Oct 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
It's a statement I've heard often enough. That no-one's said it here is beside the point.
No. I'm trying to contribute to the debate by pointing out that hard work is no guarantee of wealth, and therefore the poor are not those who "didn't work hard".
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Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote from chukovsky quote:
kenwritez gave us a long and - he thinks - ridiculous example of a chocolate bar. Maybe he can't be bothered to think about all the people he is employing when he buys a chocolate bar, but anyone that is serious about ending poverty is going to have to do it. There are no short cuts. However, fortunately there are professionals on the case, and we only need to be informed consumers.
Maybe I am too cynical, but the idea of 'professionals on the case' worries me. They would have tremendous power, which reminds me of the saying, 'power corrupts'. I'm not saying they would all take bribes, but I believe some would because human nature is what it is.
The bribes would not only be offered by businesses who want their unfair practices ignored. They would also be offered by businesses who want their competitors put out of business, not to mention individuals who have grudges against someone.
I am extremely suspicious of power without accountability, and that's what we're talking about here.
Moo
the idea of "power without accountability" in the context of, e.g. the Fairtrade Foundation, is laughable. The Fairtrade Foundation has huge amounts of accountability - voluntarily making every step they take, and every business they investigate - hugely transparent, but with no legal power.
Accountability without power is the reality - the only power they have is if we, as consumers, choose to listen to them.
You could say exactly the same about a body that investigates businesses' environmental practices, or their safety record - but would you scrap such bodies because there is an infinitessimal risk that in any such body one person might miss something accidentally-on-purpose? So let's just have businesses destroying their workers' lungs or dumping toxic chemicals in the rivers instead.
First people complain that there is no way of knowing if goods we buy are made by people who are paid fairly, so let's not bother. Then when I point out that bodies that investigate this kind of thing exist, I am told the bodies can't possibly work!
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
It makes a difference to Esther Amoah and her village co-operative. The article is informative in showing just why conventional - free market - trade is not working for these people, and why free trade does.
The radio article this morning also pointed out that a school had been built from advance payments from the Fair Trade buyers. I trust it's established now that this is a way forward?
This "oh they'll be corrupt" business reminds me of the "I won't give to charity because you can't be sure it gets to the people it's intended for" cop out.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
hatless, much of what you say is true to a point. However, you anthropomorphize capitalism a bit more I believe than is warranted. Morality is the domain of people, not economic philosophies.
Is there a system which you think would serve the African poor better than free market capitalism? What is it, and why?
I'll try to be clearer, because my intention was not at all what you heard.
I don't think free-market capitalism is a cunning plan or an intentional economic system. I think it is really a description of what tends to happen when things are left alone. Not always and everywhere, but in many places, even within other systems. It is, I think, rather like natural selection - an observable force that operates in markets when there is nothing to stop it.
In many cases free-markets bring about the rapid response of supply to demand, and this is generally a good thing and generates prosperity. However, there are problems with free-market capitalism.
I'm not sure how well it works if growth is slow or absent. The idea is that people with capital will chase marginal returns. If they are too marginal, nothing will happen.
Unchecked it will often lead to overproduction, and the waste of resources. The market is purely about what will sell, but we also need to ask if we want to use our limited resources in this way or that. Should arid countries use water to create golf-courses and increase tourism at the expense of irrigation and good sanitation? Capitalism does not think this through, but tends to lead people to the decision which will be more profitable in the next few years.
It may operate usefully within a set of conditions, but will not create those conditions. For instance, national economic success will depend on a population educated and trained appropriately. Someone, somewhere has to anticipate this and provide education. The market will only look at the supply of skills and hire and fire according to need.
The market often doesn't operate. People make decisions for all sorts of obscure other reasons. In the UK we are often concerned about the astonishing pay levels of CEOs, most recently Jean-Pierre Garnier of GlaxoSmithKline who could make £70m over the next six years, but is asking for more as he feels he has insufficient incentive with his current deal. I don't believe these pay levels are set by market forces. They reflect the values and culture of big business, not economic logic.
It's important to understand the way markets work, but we should definitely not anthropomorphise them. You often hear people express regret for the consequences of a market decision (to move a factory, to cancel an order, whatever) but then say they had no choice because they're running a business. The needs of a business and the demands of shareholders do put pressure on managers and directors but they do not absolve people from making moral choices. The profit motive must be weighed against others, but Christians will accept the commandment to love the neighbour in business as in the rest of life.
As to the best hope for the poor? It surely lies in the compassion of the rich, and the love of the righteous. It is not a matter of sin or blame. We do not know how to end poverty, but we will try to discover ways forwards, and those who have the goodwill and the means will make the well-being of their neighbours a priority. Christians, I believe, are specifically called to give not only food or money but power and dignity to the poor. Fairtrade schemes and debt relief look, for the moment, a good way of doing that.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider:
It's a statement I've heard often enough. That no-one's said it here is beside the point.
It is not beside the point that no one here has said it. If, in fact, no one here thinks that, then you're just muddying the water.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Reinforcing the fact that there is no simple correlation between hard work and wealth is extremely relevant to the discussion. I do not see that it muddies any waters. If we are clear on it, we can move on.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
By the way, when I read the Fair Trade website this morning, my first reaction was that it is a fine example of free markets in action. People are given a clear choice. They will spend their money where their minds and consciences dictate. There is nothing wrong, and nothing anti-free market about that.
Well, exactly. Contrary to kenwritz example, people do actually choose what to buy on criteria other than cheapness. Advertisers realise this when they successfully convince us to by overpriced, low quality trash on the strength of a designer label. And FairTrade campaigners have been saying it for ages! Create the demand and the market will service the demand, everybody wins. The Co-0p have not decided to stock only FairTrade chocolate for the good of African cocoa growers, believe me, they've done it to attract a certain type of consumer into doing their weekly shopping in the Co-Op instead of Tescos. And fair play to them, let's hope it works.
The world being the way it is right now (never mind how it should be, something on which none of us will probably ever agree) consumer power is just about the only power we've got.
I am not actually hectoring at you Scot - I'm just still riled by the person on another thread who made a sneering comment along the lines of "Go on, buy your FairTrade chocolate if it makes you feel better". Well, today's news has made me feel better, at least a wee bit. So there.
Rat
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider:
Reinforcing the fact that there is no simple correlation between hard work and wealth is extremely relevant to the discussion. I do not see that it muddies any waters. If we are clear on it, we can move on.
I don't think anyone has said or implied that there is a simple correlation between hard work and wealth.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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