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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Santa Claus: Should we lie to children?
Enosh
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# 2779

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Thanks, Miffy. A very inspiring story. [Love]

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Victory over self comes as we learn to love people and use things instead of using people and loving things.

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Mrs Redboots
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# 3734

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We told our daughter that Father Christmas was just a pretend. She entered whole-heartedly into the fantasy while knowing it was just a fantasy, and I don't think she was any the poorer for that. When she started losing teeth, we said that we could either buy the teeth off her as a straight commercial transaction, or pretend that the tooth fairy came - she opted for the latter!

In re the American "Santa Claus" vs the British "Father Christmas", there was never, I think, any suggestion that Father Christmas' gifts relied on a child's behaviour.

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[Color=red]Mrs Redboots[/color]

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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i remember quite clearly the moment i realized for myself that santa was only a story. what a rush! couldn't wait to tell the world. as i recall my mother was quite congratulatory that i'd worked it out myself. it never occured to me to think that my parents had "lied" to me, or that i should discount everything or anything else they'd said on account of it.

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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Redboots:

In re the American "Santa Claus" vs the British "Father Christmas", there was never, I think, any suggestion that Father Christmas' gifts relied on a child's behaviour.

In Scotland, which of course has continental connections with tradition rather then English or American, children were told that they would only get presents from Santa Claus if they were good. They got ashes or cinders in their stockings if they were bad.

I actually got a bag of cinders in my stocking when I was about seven. That was horrible.
[Mad]

Our family in Holland celebrate St. Nicholas' Day (a few days ago) and St Nicholas, dressed as a bishop, appears in the streets accompanied with Black Peter, who has a whip. Naughty children are punished and good ones rewarded.

These customs seem quite alike.

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Brigham
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There exists, I believe, a 'once and for all' solution to the annual 'Jesus-versus-Klaus' debate, at least as far as my native England is concerned, and possibly for the whole of Christendom.
This simple but elegant answer lies in the consideration of the following facts:

1) There is no Biblical evidence that Jesus was born in December. There is, however, evidence that He was not.

2) There is overwhelming historical evidence that December 25th. was widely celebrated before the coming of Christianity, and that various Popes of Rome, unable to suppress it, decided to declare it 'Christmas Day' instead.

3) There is no point in Scripture where Jesus teaches His followers to mark the day of His worldly birth.

The obvious conclusion from these simple facts is thus; Leave December 25th to the Pagans, New-Agers, Consumerists et al., and let Christians concentrate on more important matters, such as celebrating the life of Christ, and following His teachings.
Steps are already being taken in this direction by the 'Politically Correct'. Here in England, a leading northern supermarket chain (based in West Yorkshire,an area of significant Muslim population), has for some years now avoided use of the 'C-word' altogether, urging its customers to celebrate 'The Festive Season' instead. So be it. The secular world has its secular blow-out, the Christian world is rid of a hang-over from pagan times, the 'unacceptable face of Christmas' returns to its rightful bearded place as a consumer icon, and no Muslims are offended by the reference to Christ!
Now, who will hang the bell round the cat's neck?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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But I for one would not forego the celebration of the Incarnation. There's more to it than just a leader's birthday.

It is, for example, my belief that the Atonement is achieved as much by the union of God and Man in Our Lord as it is by His Passion. Christmas is therefore of equal importance with Good Friday.

Both are, of course, left unfinished without Easter and the Ascension.

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Brigham
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# 3764

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Karl has a good point here. The problem is, the day on which the Saviour was born is not known. Many, if not most Christians desire to celebrate this event, however we must decide, either singly, or as a group, on what day to hold such celebration. Any date in the calendar would be valid in scriptural terms, and so we must make our choice. My point is; December 25th is about the most unsuitable day there is! It clashes with the Roman new year, with the pagan winter solstice, and latterly with the biggest orgy of greed and drunkenness in the history of man!
My personal day to mark this event is in April, as the appearence of little lambs in the fields draws my attention to those wonderous events of so long ago. Does anyone feel like opening a new topic on when best to celebrate Christmas?

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Lanie
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# 3768

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Umm... okay... here's my twopennyworth on the Should we tell kids about Santa thing.

Didn't God say that... "Thou shalt not lie?"

If we are to be any sort of example, Christian or otherwise, then why even think about lying to our children? Lying about Santa may or may not confuse our children that "Mum and Dad lied about Santa so maybe they lied about Jesus too" but surely if Mum and Dad lie to their children the children will then think it's okay to lie to Mum and Dad too?

If it's okay to lie to our kids, maybe God should have added "Thou shalt not lie (except little white ones that don't really hurt anyone and aren't really sinful because it gives children a little magic at Christmas)". However, he said not to lie.

Bit of a bummer that - but y'know... if you start off thinking "One little lie isn't going to hurt anyone" then do you think that the next time too? Or do you decide to only lie about Santa?

I think whoever said about telling your children that Santa isn't real but that we pretend he is because we celebrate Jesus birthday by pretending he gives gifts to everyone, pretty much had it right. Children learn by playing pretending games, and to include them in the pretense of Santa might benefit them even more than having their "magical lie" continued.

Just a thought.

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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quote:
? Lying about Santa may or may not confuse our children that "Mum and Dad lied about Santa so maybe they lied about Jesus too" but surely if Mum and Dad lie to their children the children will then think it's okay to lie to Mum and Dad too?


didn't influence me that way.

come on guys. when you tell your kids a bedtime story, do you start it:

"once upon a time, a long time ago, there was a girl named cinderella, but she never really existed and this is just a story...."?

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Aardvark
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quote:
Originally posted by Brigham:
My point is; December 25th is about the most unsuitable day there is! It clashes with the Roman new year, with the pagan winter solstice, and latterly with the biggest orgy of greed and drunkenness in the history of man!
My personal day to mark this event is in April, as the appearence of little lambs in the fields draws my attention to those wonderous events of so long ago.

I agree, Brigham. Especially as December 24th is my birthday. Can't have a party: everyone's too busy. Don't get presents: everyone's too broke. Can't go out for a meal: restaurants are full and overpriced at that time of year. Can't go and see a show in London: no trains after 10pm. So yes, let's change Christmas to 25th April. [Big Grin]
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Moo

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# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Aardvark:
So yes, let's change Christmas to 25th April. [Big Grin]

And some years we can combine the Christmas and Easter celebrations.

[Roll Eyes] [Ultra confused]

Moo

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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
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quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
[QUOTE]

come on guys. when you tell your kids a bedtime story, do you start it:

"once upon a time, a long time ago, there was a girl named cinderella, but she never really existed and this is just a story...."?

Yep, I used to do just that, but not at the beginning of the story, before that. I always let them know when things were made up.

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Nicolemr
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[Roll Eyes] [Disappointed] good grief

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Poet_of_Gold
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When a very bright little girl asked me about Santa Claus, I got out the encyclopedia and read her an article on St. Nicholas. It told about his life, his legend, when he was born, and when he died. She persisted in asking if he were alive, and I explained truthfully that I believe he is alive in Heaven.

For this innocent and truthful act, I was accused of having ruined Christmas for her whole family.

(shrugs)

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duchess

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Poet, you are my hero. [Big Grin]

(Well, until this mood swings melts away)...

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Newman's Own
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Poet, I'm sure, did not at all ruin it for the child - though he may have ruined it for her parents, who probably are spinning fantasies of their own. I'm nearing the half century mark, and I have noticed, especially with some people I've known who got a late start in having children, that they have two rather fantastic "delusions" (in quotation marks lest anyone think I am referring to clinical disorders!) about their kids. First, they want to keep the kids "little" at all costs - I was astonished when someone I knew told her daughter (aged 12!) that she'd receive no presents if she denied the existence of Santa. Secondly, they want to be not only the centre but the entirety of their kids' lives - and just cannot stop preaching! (I suppose they are so afraid kids will fall into drugs or sex - which many of the parents most certainly did - that the illusions of adolescent infants is reassuring.)

As I mentioned, I (a hopeless literary type) very much enjoy folk and fairy tales, and believe that there is a good deal of truth presented in many of them. Well, about two years ago, looking for some relaxation, I did an Internet search on that subject... which led me to a site which made me very glad that I was a child when I was, rather than now. The site was aimed, apparently, at parents who perpetually preach - every fairy tale was searched for elements that could inspire "a talk." The approach would not only defeat the worth of the often fine stories, but would give parents another opportunity to talk about themselves!

Imagination is a wonderful gift - where would the arts be without it? Yet there seems to be an excessive fear today that use of imagination is some sort of delusion. My own guess, regarding Santa, is that, for the tiny children who may genuinely believe, it is just a way to express some sense of delight - and, for all but the tiniest, it is a game - more to humour parents who'd otherwise be disappointed!

Poll of other working class kids: did you ever ask "Santa" for an outrageously expensive gift, then feel he'd abandoned you when it did not appear? I did not think so...

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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn

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Assistant Village Idiot
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Elizabeth, my wife and I are your age, and her mother still doesn't like to hear her say she doesn't believe in Santa.

Perhaps connected to this, her 45 year old son keeps moving back home...

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formerly Logician

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Monsieur Magique
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# 3778

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My wife and I have always resolved not to tell fairy stories to children when we are teaching them, as later on they will remember and this reduces your credibility.
On the Santa Claus issue, we got our class to focus on the positive side of the St Nicholas story - a good man helping to prevent children being sold into servitude by the giving of gifts and asking whether that wasn't a positive example of Christian giving ?
This also stops you getting into hassles like "Why can't Santa take food to starving children ?" which will really get you into hot water if you're telling a load of fairy tales.
Kids are sophisticated and they quickly know that Santa Claus is a dude in a costume, but they'll play along if they get a present at the end. Consider that THEY may be humouring YOU rather than vice versa !
Pax vobiscum

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Alcuin
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# 2089

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Why shouldn't we lie to our children about Santa Claus? We lie to them about Jesus Christ.

Alcuin

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mimsey
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Two points:

We tell plenty of lies to children, and some of them are subtler and much more worrying than Santa. How many times, for example, have you heard an adult tell a child that "Uncle Ned is in heaven now" regardless of whether Uncle Ned even believed that there was such a place? But then again, I don't suppose that even the strictest Christian would happily tell the child that Uncle Ned was in hell, no matter what they believed!

As a child I never had a problem with Santa, as I was brought up in a tradition full of representative actions and symbols. At church I was very used to being told "we do this to remember such and such an event" and so why not "we tell children this to remember the generosity of St. Nicholas who gave money secretly to three girls"? That didn't present a problem to my six-year-old mind when I'd worked out who really left the presents (and I didn't have a problem with keeping the secret from my little sister for a bit longer, either.) It certainly never jeopardised my faith or suggested to me that my parents also lied about God-and anyway, that idea is completely illogical in that adults don't get stockings-because we wouldn't go to church once a week for the sake of the children! It must be fairly easy even for a child to tell the difference.

This is turning into three points (or more-my points tend to get fuzzy) and there's loads to say but just one last thing. Speaking as someone whose childhood was largely founded on my own imagination, I really believe that fantasy and the entering into other worlds in the mind is an essential part, both of childhood, and of life. I believed in Narnia for ages, even when I'd worked it out for myself at the age of seven and announced to my astonished mother that Aslan represented Jesus! And when my little sister was the right age, I invented a whole world just for her, populated by characters that only I could see and hear-I would have to "translate" for her. She really, truly believed it for ages, and I'm not ashamed of that, nor do I see it as having "lied" to her. Aged about ten, I could give her what I'd always wanted for myself-a real live Narnia.

In this day and age, people want to have solid things to believe in; they want to be able to touch and hold, to chink the coins in their pockets. The belief that a child has in the possibility that something outside this world, something supernatural and strange and wonderful, might exist, wouldn't be bad news for some sceptical adults in the exploration of God; and therefore, I don't think the instinct for it should be crushed in our children.

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Certitude! Certitude! Sentiment! Joie! Paix!

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Assistant Village Idiot
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Welcome MonMag and Mim

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formerly Logician

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mimsey
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# 3757

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Just one more thing-I've just realised how appropriate my signature is to this discussion! It's one of my favourite verses, and it's the reason for fantasy and the longing for other worlds-and it's Biblical! Hebrews...

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Certitude! Certitude! Sentiment! Joie! Paix!

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daisymay

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quote:
Originally posted by Alcuin:
Why shouldn't we lie to our children about Santa Claus? We lie to them about Jesus Christ.

Alcuin

When? Who's "we"?

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Bonzo
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I can remember when I found out that Father Christmas wasn't real. I certainly didn't think my parents had lied to me, in fact, for me, it confirmed their unconditional love for me, which gave me gifts without wanting my gratitude.

A better picture of God would be hard to find.

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Love wastefully

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Tortuf
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# 3784

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Here in the States we have several denominations that will not celebrate Christmas as a christian holiday. According to their beliefs, Christmas cannot have happened in mid winter, neither should it be celebrated because it started as a pagan festival. They still have christmas trees and parties and talk about Santa.
When my parents talked about Santa I knew it was a story. That knowledge never took away from my enjoyment of Christmas.
I believe that God accepts belief and worship, even if it is directed to him in some other name. I therefore have no problem with a holiday that latches onto an old pagan festival. Nor do I feel compelled to see if I can ruin someone else's joy because that joy might be based upon something I believe to be wrong. Until I am perfect I will forego forcing my truth on others.

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duchess

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# 2764

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I told my niece and nephews a little bit about St. Nicholas yesterday. Then I asked my 5 year old nephew "Do you believe in Santa Claus?" His mom and I held our breath...he looked at me like I was an idiot for even asking...

"YES." [Not worthy!]

Hehe.

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A. Theist
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# 3797

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I had a similar dilemma to you lot.

As an Atheist and a scientist, clearly I don't believe in God. I also doubt very much whether there even was a Jesus (is there any evidence other than the Bible?) If there was one, perhaps he was a freedom fighter/revolutionary.

As a Marxist, I believe that religion and superstition, especially organised religion and superstition, have been tools to prevent ordinary people achieving their true worth. Tools used by the bosses/landowners/aristocracy to keep the ordinary people "in their place".

However, as a believer in Comprehensive education, I could never send my children to other than the nearest state school. Of course, state schools (in the UK) have a duty to promote Christianity/Anglicanism.

So, my dilemma was: When do I tell my kids that Christianity is a load of old codswallop?

You see, if I did it whilst they were young, then I am brainwashing them, just as effectively as you lot have been brainwashed by the God Squad. And Confucius, I think it was, said something along the lines of "Give me the child until he is seven; and I will give you the man".

So, I decided that I would NEVER express my Atheist views, nor even any agnostic views, to my children until they were at least seven.

Why was I perpared to do this? Because, I decided that if I was going to let them, indeed encourage them, to believe in Father Christmas until they were 11 or 12 (a harmless; although materialistic fantasy), and only then tell them that it was rhubarb; the least I could do was let them form their own opinion about God/Jesus (given that they were only hearing anything substantial about Christianity, a little about other monotheistic religions, and nowt about pantheistic religions/paganism/Roman/Greek Gods etc.)

I have kept this promise; and now my children know that there is no Father Christmas. I have not, as yet, told both of them my opinion about religion; although, when my oldest pointed out that she was an atheist, I did concur. I have not as yet told my younger daughter my opinions.

By the way, the background to this is that Mum is a Christian; and all grandparents are.

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Tiffer
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# 3073

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You're cute! [Roll Eyes]

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A. Theist
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# 3797

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Thank you

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From each, according to their ability; to each, according to their needs.

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Tiffer
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# 3073

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Sorry, couldn't resist.

Your poor wife! Go on, become a Christian! It's a whole load of fun, and you get to do all sorts of things you could never do otherwise.

A word of warning - my parents let me grow up without pressing their views on me, I suppose because they thought that some belief in God would make me behave better. A few years later and I am an arrogant bible-bashing Christian, that really backfired! And boy do I know what they believe now. So if that is your approach now then be prepared to continue it when they are worried for your eternal soul and off to prayer meetings every day!

quote:
As a Marxist, I believe that religion and superstition, especially organised religion and superstition, have been tools to prevent ordinary people achieving their true worth.
Did you meet me before I became a Christian! Do you have any idea what I thought of my true worth was then?

quote:
Of course, state schools (in the UK) have a duty to promote Christianity/Anglicanism.
Is this true? I thought that it was considered racism nowadays to promote anything other than minority religions. I do remember singing some sunday school songs however.

Did you know that if you polish pewter enough it looks like silver?

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"All the Fat belongs to the Lord"
-Leviticus 3:16b

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A. Theist
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# 3797

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------------Did you meet me before I became a Christian! Do you have any idea what I thought of my true worth was then?-------

I don't know. I do know that religion is often used to keep people in their "place" (i.e.poor).

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Of course, state schools (in the UK) have a duty to promote Christianity/Anglicanism.
-------------------------------------------------Is this true? I thought that it was considered racism nowadays to promote anything other than minority religions. I do remember singing some sunday school songs however.-------

Yes, it is true. There must be a daily collective act of worship, of a "broadly christian nature"; and there must be religious education of a broadly christian nature. (I'm not sure of the exact rules).

In my area, some attention is paid to Islam (which is of course yet another monotheistic religion based on both Judaism and Christianity), with a tiny nod in the direction of Sikhism; virtually no reference to Hinduism; and certainly no reference to any atheistic belief systems, or any other systems based on several gods. No paganism, no wicca, no Greek Gods (Myths, of course!) or Roman Gods, no worshipping Earth or the Sun; no Humanism, Marxism etc.

-------Did you know that if you polish pewter enough it looks like silver?-----

I will drink my Ale from a tankard made from either, but I would still rather drink it from a glass.

By the way, I like Dr. Who (try the BBC chat boards).

I'd love to stop and chat further; but it's very late, and I have to work in the morning.

Just to satisfy my curiosity - I assume that you are female. Am I right?

Posts: 4 | From: Brighouse | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tiffer
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# 3073

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ME! FEMALE! [Mad]

No, and I have friends who can vouch for that!

The impertinance!

Have a good sleep and a good day at work.

Tiffer (From Chris-tiffer!)

PS Please become a Christian!

PPS Someone take the exclamation mark away from my keyboard.

PPS I apologise for hijacking the thread.

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"All the Fat belongs to the Lord"
-Leviticus 3:16b

Posts: 411 | From: England (all over) | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Assistant Village Idiot
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I give A Theist (clever, that) credit for the courage of your convictions, and keeping a promise made only to yourself.

You'll have to do better around here than the keeping the masses in their place, of-course-because-I'm-a-scientist, there wasn't a real Jesus litany. This is a group that has both individually and collectively come up with coherent (though perhaps not persuasive to you) answers to each of those. As to marxism's coherence in the 21st C...

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formerly Logician

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Welcome, A. Theist!

Originally posted by A. Theist:
I also doubt very much whether there even was a Jesus (is there any evidence other than the Bible?) If there was one, perhaps he was a freedom fighter/revolutionary.

I believe there are some general historical mentions. (Herodotus?) Something along the lines of "Jesus of Nazareth was crucified".

As a Marxist, I believe that religion and superstition, especially organised religion and superstition, have been tools to prevent ordinary people achieving their true worth. Tools used by the bosses/landowners/aristocracy to keep the ordinary people "in their place".

Definitely can be used that way, and has been.

Of course, state schools (in the UK) have a duty to promote Christianity/Anglicanism.

I didn't find this out until the last couple of days. Living in the US, I knew that you had a state church but not that it extended into the schools.

So, I decided that I would NEVER express my Atheist views, nor even any agnostic views, to my children until they were at least seven.

Forgive my way of putting this, but I think that's sweet!

I have kept this promise; and now my children know that there is no Father Christmas. I have not, as yet, told both of them my opinion about religion; although, when my oldest pointed out that she was an atheist, I did concur. I have not as yet told my younger daughter my opinions.

You sound like a good dad.

By the way, the background to this is that Mum is a Christian; and all grandparents are.

I'm not a parent...but I'm wondering if the best thing would be for *all* of you to sit down together. You and your wife can say, "We love you and each other very much. We see the world a bit differently. (explain *briefly*) As you grow and grow up, you'll find your own way of looking at the world--and we'll support you in that."

Also, I know there are books to help with mixed-faith marriages. Maybe there's one for your situation?

Best of luck! [Smile]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Assistant Village Idiot
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golden key Pliny the Younger

Yes, you're not a parent.

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formerly Logician

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by logician:
Yes, you're not a parent.

Play nicely, Logician. I was quite up front about that.

But I've heard of parents taking similar approaches in mixed-faith households. They allow for parents to have differing beliefs, without forcing the kids to *choose*.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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A. Theist,
I was raised by a scientific approach dad and my-ancestors-were-Christians-so-cuturally-that-makes-me-one-I-know-my-a-b-c's ... and after hanging out in the dark corners of the Bay Area (including SF) partying all the time...went to the other extreme ...an inerrant believer...bible thumper. Watch out, it could happen to you.

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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duchess

Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764

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the Cultural Christian I described is my mom. Dang I am tired...good night.

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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party

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busyknitter
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# 2501

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Tangents abound in this thread.

So I thought I'd give you an update from the Wool Basket on the Santa debate.

As I said in an earlier post, I've always thought it really important that my son understands that the presents mostly come from realy people. On the way to school yesterday (which is where most of the really imprtant conversations seem to happen) he was getting very excited about Christmas, so i reminded him of that particular message. So then he asked "Who does the stockings then?...... You know Mum, I think it's really the parents sneaking around who do it". After a 2 second fight with my conscience I said "well yes, It's just a fun story, really" "aha! he said. Now I know the secret" and seemed really pleased.

Not sure what this demonstrates, except I think I still stand by what I said at first. A little bit of harmless fantasy never hurt anyone and don't get too earnest about it

BK

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Amos

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Not Pliny the Younger, logician, but Josephus.

Not Confucius, A. Theist, but the Society of Jesus.

A. Theist, you say your wife is a Christian, but seem clear that you oversee and determine your children's upbringing and beliefs. Isn't this a bit patriarchal of you? And is it workable? Or is Mrs. Theist a downtrodden little doormat who never opens her mouth, but hopes devoutly that her faith will save you all? Actually I would doubt this.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Amos

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And even if it were the case that she said nothing, A. Theist, what about her presence and example? Tsk. Are you planning to remove your offspring from this pernicious influence before she gets to them?

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Golden Key
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Good grief. Do we really need to be rude to A. Theist? Or try to convert him?

He's been quite open about his beliefs--a brave thing on a Christian board, especially this one.

If he really were lording it over his wife, etc., he wouldn't have been so careful with how he handled the children.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
A. Theist
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# 3797

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To Amos, I think golden key has answered on my behalf - I have not been patriarchal, nor have I tried to over influence my children (although evey good parent sets standards of behaviour).

Even when I think that there is undue influence from society (whether RE [religious education] at school, or "Popstars" the TV programme etc.), I have tried to restrain any comments I might have.

Now, although I have strong views about organised religion, and cannot accept the non-scientific aspects, I was brought up, and even confirmed into the Anglican church. I know that much of the teachings of the church, and much of its morality, are good.

Indeed, I have even, on occasion bought the Salvation Army's Young Soldier/Kid's Alive as I felt it could only have a good influence on my children.

As I say, the point of my original post was that I feel that believing in God and in Jesus as the son of God is a fantasy; and potentially a dangerous fantasy. I wrestled with expressing these views to my children, and countering the RE, at an early age.

It was the fact that I realised that I could pretend about Santa for years, and then explain that it's not true; and that that would be harmless - so letting them believe in Jesus and God would be harmless, as I could at a later stage tell them my truth. As it turns out, I did not need to with the older one, who has decided for herself that there is no God. The younger one (who is 11, and I have only just admitted that there isn't a real Santa) still believes in God.

Don't be silly, me - of course there's a real Santa! [Wink]

I hope that I haven't offended anybody by coming on here. I just wanted to show you my "mirror image" dilemma to your dilemma about being truthful about Santa.

I hope that I have illustrated that it is OK to pretend about Santa.

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From each, according to their ability; to each, according to their needs.

Posts: 4 | From: Brighouse | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Amos

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A_theist, I replied as I did because of your view, as you state above, that 'believing in God and in Jesus as the son of God is a fantasy and a potentially dangerous fantasy', and your remark that your wife is a Christian. You are married to someone, in that case, whose life is based on something that you believe to be 'a fantasy and a potentially dangerous fantasy'. This is simply not analogous to being married to someone who entertains the harmless fantasies of Santa and the Tooth Fairy. At the very least, you seem to have little respect for the beliefs of your wife; your assumption is that when the children reach the age of reason they will think as you do, and you congratulate yourself for waiting patiently until they come to their senses. You say nothing about the possible influence your wife might have on the children; the implication of your posts is that they will think as you do, or as instructed by you. Meanwhile you have, under your roof and very likely even in your bed, a woman who you say is a Christian. Are you quite sure she is not an influence on the young'uns?

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Assistant Village Idiot
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Amos, I beg to differ. Flavius Josephus did indeed mention Jesus, but Plinius Secundus does as well. Admittedly, it is around 112 AD, but that is not terribkly far removed. Several others mention him as well; Tacitus, and the very odd letter in the British Museum which I will have to look up...

(whistle. pause)

Mara Ben Serapion. I would never have remembered it.

Anyway, small point. Josephus is the best of them.

golden key, I was amused by your comment and only meant for my chiding to bite a little. It actually is a good idea to try and rehearse in your mind how you are going to say complicated things to your children. It's just that it's not going to end up much like your quote.

I support not putting children in difficult positions, making choices over their heads, but I'm pretty sure I don't hold with the idea of teaching the sprouts very little in order to preserve their objectivity or free choice.

We don't take that attitude about nutrition, or reading, or speaking kindly to people. We teach what we believe. What A. Theist is describing is not an entirely hands-off approach and I wouldn't make that accusation. But there have been comments throughout the thread suggesting that some sort of parental neutrality is a desirable state. Balderdash. Children don't discover beliefs or puzzle them out ex nihilo. We can't be so worried about appearing to indoctrinate that we fall out the other side of the boat.

I think the option of not believing is going to be fairly obvious to children pretty soon. I teach my beliefs full-throatedly, but my sons have not remained in quite the same places that I set them down.

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formerly Logician

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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It's worth noting, however, that as this page shows, Josephus didn't quite say all the things attributed to him. It's interesting to read, however, that his basic reference to Jesus is genuine. I think some atheists have slightly over-egged their pudding on this one.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Santa was always real to me even throughout adulthood, because my grandfather palyed Santa every year at our family Christmas parties. Red suit and all.So there was the whole Mystical Elf delivering goodies thing, and then there was my Grandfather Christmas. it gave me a little different perspective on things

When I was teaching first graders (7-to-8-year-olds) at a Christian school, I was literally backed up against a wall by a group of them who said, "Okay, Kelly now really --is there a Santa?"

I groaned, and actually said, "You had to ask ME."
But the fact that they asked me was a huge compliment, because it showed they expected a straight answer from me. I hesitated as I considered the ire of their parents, our Christian setting, my own hatred of dishonesty. finally I looked up and caught the eye of one of my I-know-you're-not-supposed-to-have-them-but favourite students, and I no more would have lied to her than I would have stuck a fork in my hand. This is what I ended up saying:

"Here's my opinion," I said "and feel free to have your own. I think there was a man (blah, blah, blah,brief St. Nicholas rap) and I think that people respected and loved the man so much, that it kind of turned into a club--like a Santa Club. So that guy in the red suit ringing a bell? he really is Santa because he chooses to be, and he's in the Santa Club.And my grandpa was in the Santa Club (here I revealed to them my privilidged status as Santa's Granddaughter.) And anyone who chooses to dress up and hand out gifts to kids and make them happy--they are in the Santa Club and they really are Santa because they want to be. like you really are a Girl Scout once you join that group.

Anyway, that's they way I look at it."

This way I respected the children's need for fantasy--I kept reiterating that this was just one woman's opinion, so if they were not ready to take that developmental leap out of Magical Thinking they didn't have to, but at the same time I told the truth in a way I thought they could handle. And I really do like the idea of a santa club. [Smile]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
LittleTotty
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# 3798

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Ok I'm sorry - again - for not reading all the posts on this thread. Probably doesn't give me license to speak but here I go anyway.

When i was all of around 5 my father was having me for xmas (on rotation with my mother every year). Late on xmas eve I heard santa claus, yes, THE REAL santa clause tucking into the nuts n pies left out by us every year for him + a tot of rum and some carrots for the reindeer. I crept silently down the corridor all but for my heart pounding in my chest and nearly shaking at the prospect of probably being the FIRST CHILD EVER to have seen the living claus and...would I live to tell the tale?
Seeing my Dad sitting in the kitchen finishing the paper and casually helping himself to the gifts WE had left for santa I had the deepest, sinking feeling in my heart as I realized it was, a lie. I think this feeling really came from the propensity to which my father and those around him had drilled into me about the existence of claus including scenarious involving fires being lit in grates if i wasn't a good girl and didn't go to bed (how will he get into the flat daddy?)

So i think that what some people have put to this thread have been really helpful in how to find a balance (Enosh et al). I do think the encouragement of a child's imagination is important and I like the moulding of the story around Jesus not the other way round. The only thing i can compare to that feeling xmas eve 1985? was discovering what i had believed about God and salvation to be wrong sept 1998. Don't mean to dramatise but i think it's really inportant to be gentle with young minds and encourage hopes not destroy them.

i don't have any kids but if i do i think I will use some of the things read here. Happy Christmas!

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HoosierNan
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# 91

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I agree with Enosh and Mousethief. It can undermine a child's faith in Jesus if he/she is asked to believe in Santa Claus, and finds out it is not true.

I very clearly remember finding out that Santa Claus was not true, and George Washington didn't really confess to chopping down the cherry tree (American folk tale) within the same month. Since these two stories are supposed to inspire children to virtue, and the Jesus story is supposed to do the same, could this Jesus stuff be nothing more than another elaborate, manipulative, adults controlling children through guilt hoax?

It was several years before I got my faith back.

My husband had the some experience.

When we had children, we decided on this plan:

We told them that Santa Claus is a pretend person, like Big Bird and Oscar and Cookie Monster on Sesame Street (a TV show). And that it is fun to pretend about him, and polite to do so when other people are pretending. That way, they got the fun of Santa and my husband and I have kept our integrity.

And, as someone else mentioned, now that my children are in their teens, I can look them in the eye and say that I have never lied to them--not even about Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, or the Easter Bunny. And the level of trust in our home is much greater than that of any other parents of teenagers in my social circle.

Posts: 795 | From: Indiana, USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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HoosierNan, I'm glad you're back - I was concerned about you......

I think it is up to the individual parents to decide how to play the Santa thing. That is why it is wrong for other adults to decide to spill the beans. It sounds as if you have stuck to the courage of your convictions and it has worked for your family, but you also taught them to respect those who did want to pretend to their children.
I suppose a parallel can be found in our attitude to other religions (which we may believe are false) - believe what you know to be true, but respect the others who may think differently.

I personally went along with the Santa thing, but never made a big thing of it. That way, there might have been some disappointment but not so much. Son no. 2 was actually quite relieved when he realised, because he had been rather frightened of the idea of this stranger coming into his home at night - he always refused to put the stocking in his bedroom and left it by the Christmas tree.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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