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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Scottish Independence
Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Isn't the Scottish Labour Party one of the murkiest, most corrupt political organisations in the UK today? I'm surprised that anyone would want independence so that it can be more true to itself.

Compared with the English conservative party they're a beacon of probity.
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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Isn't the Scottish Labour Party one of the murkiest, most corrupt political organisations in the UK today? I'm surprised that anyone would want independence so that it can be more true to itself.

Compared with the English conservative party they're a beacon of probity.
How many English Conservative MPs have committed suicide as a result of bullying?
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Arethosemyfeet
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That's a really bizarre measure of corruption you have there. I'm not even sure to whom you are referring, is this about Gordon McMaster? A case from over 15 years ago the perpetrator of which was suspended from the party?
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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
That's a really bizarre measure of corruption you have there. I'm not even sure to whom you are referring, is this about Gordon McMaster? A case from over 15 years ago the perpetrator of which was suspended from the party?

I was thinking of Gordon McMaster. I was thinking of 'murky', rather than 'corrupt' when I wrote my post, though.
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Arethosemyfeet
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I really can't see how you can generalise from the tragic case of one victim of homophobic bullying to the whole of the Scottish Labour party.
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Anglican't
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It was one particular example that came to mind when you began to draw comparisons with other parties.
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Og: Thread Killer
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quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
How much does the current crown family provide to Scotland in terms of GDP?

Wouldn't that be able to be roughly approximated by working out the current benefit to the whole of the UK (primarily the tourism income flowing into the economy) and multiplying that by the percentage of general revenue which flows specifically to Scotland?

Balmoral, for example, is a working GDP contributor, I presume.

[fixed code]

[ 30. November 2013, 21:08: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I do appreciate the resentment of Tory-led government from London, but that won't be the state of affairs for ever (it might well only be the state of affairs for another 18 months!)

But, it's not a question of the party in power at anyone time. It's the fact that over the last 30 years all three main UK wide parties have shifted to the right politically. Blue, yellow or red ... they're all shades of Tory. A further general election which results in a New Labour majority won't significantly change that.

Independence will allow Scottish Labour to swing back to the left, which is where the majority of Scottish Labour voters are. Which shold allow an effective opposition to the SNP, who while Labour are centre-right Tories with a red rosette, have larger electoral support than might otherwise be the case (also helped by the perceived betrayal by Clegg).

The only problem is that without Scottish Labour to anchor them to the left, New Labour in rUK are liable to slide further right. And, there are lots of regions of England and Wales outwith the SE corner where that would be as unpalatable to large proportions of the electorate as it is in Scotland.

Yes, I suppose at the moment, Scottish politics has a strong tinge of social democracy, whereas, the national Labour, Tory and LibDem parties are all shades of Tory, really.

So it might seem unpalatable for some English and Welsh people, if Scotland goes independent, well, the idea that we are then consigned to a variety of right-wing governments under different labels.

But I suppose history often has a habit of surprising us.

It does seem a good incentive for Scots to vote yes - get free of the Tories. On the other hand, a right-wing movement might start up in Scotland, once the honeymoon is over, especially if the economy goes tits up.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
It was one particular example that came to mind when you began to draw comparisons with other parties.

Given that the tories voted against the repeal of section 28, widely known to have exacerbated homophobic bullying in schools, even on that score the tories come off looking worse - the people they drove to suicide with their homophobia may not have been MPs, but they're culpable nonetheless. Whereas the perpetrator in your example was disowned by his party as soon as his behaviour and its impact became known.
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:

How much of the upkeep of said family would the Scottish government be expected to pay?

Presumably responsibility for the security of the Scots royal family would fall on the government of Scotland when HM The Queen or her family were in Scotland (at Balmoral, for example).

What about the Crown Estate? There are, on the face of it, two possibilities: either it remains controlled by the rump UK treasury, and the rump UK parliament pays whatever the successor to the civil list is called, or the portion of the Crown Estate which is in Scotland is transferred to the Scottish treasury, and the Scots parliament pays a fraction of it to HM The Queen along similar lines to the current UK arrangements.

The second of these options seems to make more sense to me.

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american piskie
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When Yugoslavia was breaking up, and ethnic cleansing was the flavour of the month I used to wonder whether in my old age I would find myself pushing my belongings in a pram up the A1.

Ought I be packing my bags now? If not, why not?
Are my neighbours in England so different from the people of [choose your own FYR]?

(To the last I would have said, of course they are; until I read early posts on this thread.)

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Are my neighbours in England so different from the people of [choose your own FYR]?

(To the last I would have said, of course they are; until I read early posts on this thread.)

While some comments may have been misguided (e.g. the stuff about the Crown) and some of it perhaps mean-spirited, which posts in particular made you think that at some point in the future your English neighbours will shoot you, rape your daughters and burn your house down?
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Full of Chips
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An interesting religious perspective on Scottish Independence can be found here:

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/19517

The Radical Independence Mpvement (RIC) is one of many "YES"-supporting groups that have sprung up independently, showing the depth of the desire for social change and renewal which is fuelling the drive to independence.

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deano
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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
When Yugoslavia was breaking up, and ethnic cleansing was the flavour of the month I used to wonder whether in my old age I would find myself pushing my belongings in a pram up the A1.

Ought I be packing my bags now? If not, why not?
Are my neighbours in England so different from the people of [choose your own FYR]?

(To the last I would have said, of course they are; until I read early posts on this thread.)

We are a little more civilised! You would be more than welcome to take National Express.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
When Yugoslavia was breaking up, and ethnic cleansing was the flavour of the month I used to wonder whether in my old age I would find myself pushing my belongings in a pram up the A1.

Ought I be packing my bags now? If not, why not?
Are my neighbours in England so different from the people of [choose your own FYR]?

(To the last I would have said, of course they are; until I read early posts on this thread.)

People are planning referendums and publishing White Papers, and you're trying to equate that to a country that had a civil war?

[Disappointed]

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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If Scotland separates, how will that affect the future's view of United Kingdom history, like WWII? It's a bit hard for a country to have one of its finest hours and then disappear seventy years later.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:


We're not a colony to be told that having the ordinary powers of a country is a 'privilege' for us to be grateful to someone else for. Nor does a proposed currency union which suits both sides represent one country 'having its cake and eating it'.

Also we're not Quebec. The Scottish White Paper has been published. If people want to prove that Scottish independence is X, Y or Z thing they hate about Quebec nationalism, then please quote the relevant bit from the Scottish white paper and demonstrate it.

As I said at the time, Devo-Max = Sovereignty-Association, the nonsense the PQ tried to sell to Quebeckers twice.

I will stop treating Scotland like Quebec when Scots stop repeating the very strategies and much of the rhetoric of the Parti Québecois. No wonder Alex Salmond treated Pauline Marois like a bad smell when she visited Edinburgh this spring.

Your first paragraph, though, clearly represents the highly optimistic thinking which characterizes the PQ's rhetoric. Greece and Southern Europe shows exactly what happens when a country does not have control of its currency. Europe has widely varying economic policies and outcomes and has tried to fit a single currency on this. It failed because you can't have an independent fiscal policy under a currency union.

Instead of a soft currency devaluation or mild inflation, a country has a hard internal price decline and economic depression. You get crucified on a "cross of gold". Canada learned this in the 1940's which is why the Canadian dollar usually floated after 1945.

Independence is not cost-free. You have to be prepared to accept customs controls on the Tweed and your own currency or you have no business considering the idea.

I'll get back to you when I finish reading the Executive Summary of the White Paper.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
If Scotland separates, how will that affect the future's view of United Kingdom history, like WWII? It's a bit hard for a country to have one of its finest hours and then disappear seventy years later.

Oh that is utter rubbish. Countries in Europe have been dividing and combining for centuries. Do you seriously think there is any point in time where people said 'wait, we can't do that, our grandfathers and great-grand fathers did quite well as soldiers under the regime that happened to exist at the time'?

If you want to know how countries view themselves as their makeup changes over time, go and do a fact-finding mission in the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Austria, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovnia, and the FYROM for starters off the top of my head. Oh wait, let's throw in all the former bits and pieces of the Soviet Union, there's another 15 or so for you. Do you think that everyone just went 'but wait, we won't know our history if we alter the borders'?

According to this count, 34 new countries have been created since 1990. 34! My grandmother was born in 1921, so she's probably seen about 100 countries turn up on the map. Admittedly she just missed the creation of Finland. Yes, that horrible new-fangled country. If you're going to treat changes in governing arrangements as some kind of inconceivable disastrous event, you're going to have to ignore the fact that it happens on a ridiculously frequent basis.

I just cannot believe the sheer preciousness of people painting all these 'problems' of independence. There are legitimate issues to tackle, but 'what will we put in the history books about the 1940s' is assuredly not one of them.

[ 01. December 2013, 02:14: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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[Roll Eyes]

Read for context, orfeo. Commenters upthread said that although each component of the UK has its own history, they have a combined history too, and that is one of the finer moments of that combined history. Surely you as an Australian understand that national history is part of the national dream, just as I as a Canadian understand it. People believed in the UK then, yet they don't appear to believe in the UK now. Why?

The Scots "Yes" side will win if 60,000 English are not prepared to travel north of the Tweed and hold a giant rally for the continued existence of the UK in Edinburgh.

That's what happened in Canada in 1995. As a Radio-Canada documentary ably stated (in French) the other provinces had been shut out of the process and told to mind their own business. By the end of the campaign they were pulling out hair out and watching the Yes side win. So 60K Canadians did get into a car, a train, a plane and held a Unity Rally in Montreal.

If nobody in England is prepared to do that, then the UK is already lost. It's a fundamental expression that deep down you still care about each other and want to be together.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
If Scotland separates, how will that affect the future's view of United Kingdom history, like WWII? It's a bit hard for a country to have one of its finest hours and then disappear seventy years later.

Wow. That was almost UKIP like, in a passive way.

From an NDPer? [Confused]

Really? You really think that's an issue for Scottish Independence voters to consider? How past history will be seen?

And, just as weirdly, since when does the history of people disappear when part of those people, 70 years later, decide to move off and go their own way?

Your detest for Quebec separatism is colouring your views here to the point where you are talking utter tosh.

From what I've read here, this is not the same scenario as Quebec.

The history is not the same.

The people are not the same.

The situations are not the same.

And, people on the ground in Scotland, on both sides of this debate, have rejected Quebec as an example.

For me, the principle of self-determination precludes me from discussing Scottish independence with anything more then academic interest. Sure, I'll ask a question or two, and maybe comment upon a scenario.

But, that question you gave out is pretty loaded.

As I said, that's UKIP speak. Are you sure you want to go down the route of patriotism?

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
[Roll Eyes]

...

The Scots "Yes" side will win if 60,000 English are not prepared to travel north of the Tweed and hold a giant rally for the continued existence of the UK in Edinburgh.

That's what happened in Canada in 1995. As a Radio-Canada documentary ably stated (in French) the other provinces had been shut out of the process and told to mind their own business. By the end of the campaign they were pulling out hair out and watching the Yes side win. So 60K Canadians did get into a car, a train, a plane and held a Unity Rally in Montreal.

If nobody in England is prepared to do that, then the UK is already lost. It's a fundamental expression that deep down you still care about each other and want to be together.

1995 is not today.
England is not the ROC circa 1995, nor the ROC as it is today. Scotland is not Quebec circa 1995, nor the ROC as it is today.

You might have heroic memories of what happened then. But that was 18 years ago, in another country, on another continent, involving much different issue. The Europe of today, of which Scotland and England and the rest of the UK are a part, is very very different from Canada circa 1995.

The world has changed.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Surely you as an Australian understand that national history is part of the national dream, just as I as a Canadian understand it.

Yeah. A big part of our national history involves asserting that the British completely stuffed us around at Gallipoli in 1915, and that we were better off not blindly following them.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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L'organist
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tangent alert
quote:
posted by orfeo
A big part of our national history involves asserting that the British completely stuffed us around at Gallipoli in 1915, and that we were better off not blindly following them.

Which is fine and dandy. Australia and New Zealand did suffer large numbers of casualties at Gallipoli - as did the UK, France, India and Newfoundland. In fact, French fatalities outnumbered Australian. And a huge number of casualties at Gallipoli were nothing to do with the fighting and all to do with the climate, appalling sanitation, lack of water and no effective disease control.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Vulpior

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# 12744

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
When Yugoslavia was breaking up, and ethnic cleansing was the flavour of the month I used to wonder whether in my old age I would find myself pushing my belongings in a pram up the A1.

Ought I be packing my bags now? If not, why not?
Are my neighbours in England so different from the people of [choose your own FYR]?

(To the last I would have said, of course they are; until I read early posts on this thread.)

People are planning referendums and publishing White Papers, and you're trying to equate that to a country that had a civil war?

[Disappointed]

In a way, a fair question. Are the inter-regional, inter-state or other tensions within a nation state enough that, given the right flashpoint, they could lead to civil war? Fragmented nations are the stuff of apocalyptic dramas, but would it take something less to set us (whoever "us" might refer to) at one another's throats? When you see other nations breaking apart, you do wonder. After all, Yugoslavia/Sudan/Syria/wherever has been on our maps for years; were the simmering tensions that we never heard about really that much worse than those here? Could it happen here?

FWIW, my answer is no.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
tangent alert
quote:
posted by orfeo
A big part of our national history involves asserting that the British completely stuffed us around at Gallipoli in 1915, and that we were better off not blindly following them.

Which is fine and dandy. Australia and New Zealand did suffer large numbers of casualties at Gallipoli - as did the UK, France, India and Newfoundland. In fact, French fatalities outnumbered Australian. And a huge number of casualties at Gallipoli were nothing to do with the fighting and all to do with the climate, appalling sanitation, lack of water and no effective disease control.
I wasn't intending to suggest that the Australian mythos surrounding those events was necessarily accurate. Just that when it comes to 'nation-building' and national history, the perception that we were not British and couldn't rely on the British is a significant component.

It's hard to avoid the irony in SPK's notion of nation-building, in that he thinks it only points one way. It doesn't. One of the main ways you build a new nation is by breaking away from an old one. Apparently that's absolutely fine when it comes to Australia or Canada, but a disastrous proposition when it comes to Quebec or Scotland - or presumably Western Australia if they ever consider leaving again.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Zach82
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# 3208

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quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
In a way, a fair question. Are the inter-regional, inter-state or other tensions within a nation state enough that, given the right flashpoint, they could lead to civil war? Fragmented nations are the stuff of apocalyptic dramas, but would it take something less to set us (whoever "us" might refer to) at one another's throats? When you see other nations breaking apart, you do wonder. After all, Yugoslavia/Sudan/Syria/wherever has been on our maps for years; were the simmering tensions that we never heard about really that much worse than those here? Could it happen here?

FWIW, my answer is no.

I'm confused, why are we talking about civil wars? It seems to me that triviality is the hallmark of this potential divorce, not long simmering oppression or division.

[ 01. December 2013, 03:40: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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molopata

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# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Greece and Southern Europe shows exactly what happens when a country does not have control of its currency. Europe has widely varying economic policies and outcomes and has tried to fit a single currency on this. It failed because you can't have an independent fiscal policy under a currency union.

Scotland has no control of currency and fiscal arrangements. and nor does it, under current arrangements, have any power to change this. Independence would at least offer the ability to opt out of whatever arrangements are met with neighbouring countries.

Scotland also has no control of customs and immigration policy. Take tourism, which has a larger footprint on the Scottish economy than that of England. The increasing number of Chinese and Indian tourists to Europe often acquire a Schengen visa, but not a second visa for Britain. This is one area where it might be interesting for Scotland join the Schengen zone at some point, which certainly isn't going to happen in UK context as long as England has other concerns.

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... The Respectable

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molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
In a way, a fair question. Are the inter-regional, inter-state or other tensions within a nation state enough that, given the right flashpoint, they could lead to civil war? Fragmented nations are the stuff of apocalyptic dramas, but would it take something less to set us (whoever "us" might refer to) at one another's throats? When you see other nations breaking apart, you do wonder. After all, Yugoslavia/Sudan/Syria/wherever has been on our maps for years; were the simmering tensions that we never heard about really that much worse than those here? Could it happen here?

For all its failings, the Westminster government was at least enlightened enough to let the residents of Scotland vote on the matter (although refusing a Devo-Max option due to their own political calculations). This alone largely diffuses the situation compared with all the other examples you quote.

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... The Respectable

Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
the giant cheeseburger
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
If Scotland separates, how will that affect the future's view of United Kingdom history, like WWII? It's a bit hard for a country to have one of its finest hours and then disappear seventy years later.

Who has said anything about the UK disappearing?

If the secessionists in Scotland really think that their secession will have any effect on the continued existence of the UK they are either drunk or stupid. The UK will hold all the cards in this, including the absolute right to veto Scottish membership of the EU, NATO and even the United Nations if the secessionists get too greedy.

quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
Scotland also has no control of customs and immigration policy. Take tourism, which has a larger footprint on the Scottish economy than that of England. The increasing number of Chinese and Indian tourists to Europe often acquire a Schengen visa, but not a second visa for Britain. This is one area where it might be interesting for Scotland join the Schengen zone at some point, which certainly isn't going to happen in UK context as long as England has other concerns.

If immigration policy in post-secession Scotland is going to diverge from that of the UK, controls at the UK-Scotland border would come in before too long. Once that happened, turning the border with the UK into a Schengen Treaty zone external border (with mandatory controls on the Schengen zone side in both directions, this is a treaty obligation) would be a small step.

Schengen and Eurozone for Scotland would also be mandatory if they managed to join the European Union as they are for all new member states joining since those treaties commenced. There are too many other EU members (mainly those with potential secessionist regions such as Spain with Catalonia) which would be prepared to veto an attempt for Scotland to get any special exceptions.

The thing with the independence that would come by seceding from the UK is that Scotland would no longer be required to worry about what was in the best interests of the UK before making decisions such as joining the EU/Schengen/Euro.

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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
If immigration policy in post-secession Scotland is going to diverge from that of the UK,

I'm not sure there's much of an 'if' about that. It's one of the areas where Scottish interests diverge most strongly from the policies set by the Westminster government. Scotland has a small population with significant parts of the economy dependent upon immigrant workers (given that I'm a Sasannach, I'll be one of those post-independence). The Scottish government is actively trying to encourage people to come and work in Scotland, to fill a range of skills gaps. Scottish universities (and, for that matter, English and Welsh universities) are desperate to take on international students with the associated substantial fees they bring with them. Yet, it is arguable that the immigrant population in London and parts of the Home Counties have problems with too many immigrants (an argument that I find very weak, but that's another discussion) and the Westminster government has enacted crippling restrictions on immigration, even on issuing visas for students to attend 1-2 year university courses. That idiotic policy is probably just as damaging to the economies of other parts of the UK, but it's Scotland that has a chance to do things differently by taking control of our own immigration policy.

quote:
controls at the UK-Scotland border would come in before too long.
Perhaps. We may need to have some means to prevent a flood of people fleeing Tory government south of the border to the relative utopia of a social-democratic government in Scotland.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Taliesin
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Can I come?
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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
1995 is not today.
England is not the ROC circa 1995, nor the ROC as it is today. Scotland is not Quebec circa 1995, nor the ROC as it is today.

You might have heroic memories of what happened then. But that was 18 years ago, in another country, on another continent, involving much different issue. The Europe of today, of which Scotland and England and the rest of the UK are a part, is very very different from Canada circa 1995.

The world has changed.

What's the ROC in this context? What SPK said sounds spot on to me.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

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North East Quine

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quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Can I come?

Yes!!
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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
If Scotland separates, how will that affect the future's view of United Kingdom history, like WWII? It's a bit hard for a country to have one of its finest hours and then disappear seventy years later.

I don't quite understand the flak associated with this question, which seems a reasonable one to me.

That said, I suspect the answer might the 'no affect at all'. The Great War occurred only a few years before the United Kingdom was pulled apart by the loss of most of Ireland, but this doesn't appear to affect how we perceive ourselves in that conflict.

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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
In a way, a fair question. Are the inter-regional, inter-state or other tensions within a nation state enough that, given the right flashpoint, they could lead to civil war? Fragmented nations are the stuff of apocalyptic dramas, but would it take something less to set us (whoever "us" might refer to) at one another's throats? When you see other nations breaking apart, you do wonder. After all, Yugoslavia/Sudan/Syria/wherever has been on our maps for years; were the simmering tensions that we never heard about really that much worse than those here? Could it happen here?

For all its failings, the Westminster government was at least enlightened enough to let the residents of Scotland vote on the matter (although refusing a Devo-Max option due to their own political calculations). This alone largely diffuses the situation compared with all the other examples you quote.
This had been my hope. The emphasis by Mr Salmond et al on "the people of Scotland" and not "the Scots" encouraged me to hope that this was not tribal or ethnic, but about those who live and work in Scotland. But it's depressing how soon it morphs into "the Scots".

Those who disparage the comparison with the dissolution of Yugoslavia seem to forget that there are parts of the UK where there is still a civil war simmering away, and that when it was last really on the boil persons from that part of the UK were subject to well, a certain degree of hostility in England.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Those who disparage the comparison with the dissolution of Yugoslavia seem to forget that there are parts of the UK where there is still a civil war simmering away,



Ok, but…

quote:
and that when it was last really on the boil persons from that part of the UK were subject to well, a certain degree of hostility in England.
Are there any instances where Englishmen shot, raped or destroyed the property of fellow British subjects on account of them being from Ulster?
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North East Quine

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My view on the ground is that it is "the people of Scotland" not "the Scots." Of course, I live in a part of Scotland where there are many incomers connected to the oil industry, and many Scots have travelled the world, also with the oil industry, so what I see might not be representative of elsewhere. My MSP is SNP member Christian Allard whose English is heavily accented but who is clearly Scottish. As far as I am concerned, and I think this is the general view, the saying "there are two types of Scots, those lucky enough to have been born here, and those intelligent enough to have come" holds true.
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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
The emphasis by Mr Salmond et al on "the people of Scotland" and not "the Scots" encouraged me to hope that this was not tribal or ethnic, but about those who live and work in Scotland. But it's depressing how soon it morphs into "the Scots".

Though, suggestions of extending the franchise to Scots living outwith Scotland has been repeatedly rejected by the Scottish Government (with the exception of those registered to vote in Scotland, but serving overseas in the armed forces or government service). The Scottish Government, and the yes campaign generally, have been resolute that the question is one for the people living in Scotland rather than being an ethnic one. It's usually the media reporting or others that morph "the people living in Scotland" to "the Scots".

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Though, suggestions of extending the franchise to Scots living outwith Scotland has been repeatedly rejected by the Scottish Government (with the exception of those registered to vote in Scotland, but serving overseas in the armed forces or government service).

Presumably this is partly on the basis that it would be difficult to determine precisely who is a Scot and who isn't?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
The emphasis by Mr Salmond et al on "the people of Scotland" and not "the Scots" encouraged me to hope that this was not tribal or ethnic, but about those who live and work in Scotland. But it's depressing how soon it morphs into "the Scots".

Though, suggestions of extending the franchise to Scots living outwith Scotland has been repeatedly rejected by the Scottish Government (with the exception of those registered to vote in Scotland, but serving overseas in the armed forces or government service). The Scottish Government, and the yes campaign generally, have been resolute that the question is one for the people living in Scotland rather than being an ethnic one. It's usually the media reporting or others that morph "the people living in Scotland" to "the Scots".
I think that goes to the root of my worry. Formally the process is a grown up one, with calls to allow persons with one Scottish grandmother a vote rightly (in my view) rejected: but the media, knowing what plays to the crowd, turn it into a question of tribal loyalties. Us and Them. And if that's the dominant flavour of the discourse, "let them go back to their own country" may be next.
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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
It's a fundamental expression that deep down you still care about each other and want to be together.

It's because I care about the people of Scotland that I'm willing to support them in their efforts to gain self-determination. Forcing them to stay in a relationship that they clearly feel is no good for them doesn't sound to me like the actions of one who cares for them...

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Scottish universities (and, for that matter, English and Welsh universities) are desperate to take on international students with the associated substantial fees they bring with them.

Interestingly, independence may prove financially damaging to Scottish universities. At the moment they can charge £9,000 per year to rUK students while keeping their fees for Scottish and other EU students lower. They can do that because Scotland is part of the UK (where £9k fees are the standard), but should they become separate countries within the EU then EU rules will force Scottish universites to charge UK students the same fee as they charge to "Home" (Scottish) ones.

On current rates, that works out to somewhere in the region of £7,000 lost per rUK student at a Scottish university. And it's reasonable to assume that a great many rUK students would choose to study in Scotland if the fees remain so much lower than those in the rUK - and Scotland would not be able to stop them.

The Scottish government would be stuck either subsidising a great deal of education for rUK students, banning rUK students from studying in Scotland, or increasing the fees for all Home/EU students to the point where there's no longer the massive incentive for rUK students to go north of the border. The first option would be financially troublesome (and might even require higher taxes from Scottish people purely to pay for educating rUK students), the second would be against EU law, and the third would be electoral suicide. Good luck with that...

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Hail Gallaxhar

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quetzalcoatl
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I'm not sure about 'they clearly feel is no good for them', as the polls have consistently shown a no vote, haven't they?

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Zach82
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I know my pessimism about a secession that has nothing to do with me makes no sense, but the pro-independence side here seems to have no concept of anything bad coming out of secession. What man sets out to build a tower without adding up the costs and all that.

So, just to throw this out there, the North Sea Oil reserves, the thing that's supposed to make it all possible, are getting pretty close to being tapped out. Estimates say that 76% of the oil has already been sucked out of the ground. Signs of the fields going dry are a dramatic decline in production coupled by a dramatic increase in cost. Which is exactly what happened in 2012.

Of course, there is probably oil in the ground for decades to come, but within a decade Scotland would be having to ask whether it was cost efficient enough to bother, especially with skyrocketing American production keeping oil prices low.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Jay-Emm
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quote:
Ori]ginally posted by Anglican't:
Are there any instances where Englishmen shot, raped or destroyed the property of fellow British subjects on account of them being from Ulster?

Not sure...Derry, definitely.

[ 01. December 2013, 14:05: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]

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North East Quine

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Scottish universities (and, for that matter, English and Welsh universities) are desperate to take on international students with the associated substantial fees they bring with them.

Interestingly, independence may prove financially damaging to Scottish universities. At the moment they can charge £9,000 per year to rUK students while keeping their fees for Scottish and other EU students lower. They can do that because Scotland is part of the UK (where £9k fees are the standard), but should they become separate countries within the EU then EU rules will force Scottish universites to charge UK students the same fee as they charge to "Home" (Scottish) ones.

On current rates, that works out to somewhere in the region of £7,000 lost per rUK student at a Scottish university. And it's reasonable to assume that a great many rUK students would choose to study in Scotland if the fees remain so much lower than those in the rUK - and Scotland would not be able to stop them.

The Scottish government would be stuck either subsidising a great deal of education for rUK students, banning rUK students from studying in Scotland, or increasing the fees for all Home/EU students to the point where there's no longer the massive incentive for rUK students to go north of the border. The first option would be financially troublesome (and might even require higher taxes from Scottish people purely to pay for educating rUK students), the second would be against EU law, and the third would be electoral suicide. Good luck with that...

Assuming no massive expansion of University provision, it would mean that Scottish Universities, with an increased number of applications, would raise their entry qualifications. Bad news for less academic Scottish students, who would find themselves squeezed out and forced to go outwith Scotland, or forego University altogether, but not necessarily bad news for Scottish Universities, who could expect to see their place in World rankings go up.

One other point, though, is that a Scottish undergraduate degree is a 4 year degree, whereas English undergraduate degrees are 3 years. This might dampen some of the enthusiasm for a Scottish University education. (Scottish students are often 17 or just turned 18 when they finish secondary education and go to Uni, whereas I gather most English students are already 18, or almost 19; the age difference evens out come graduation.)

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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:


Are there any instances where Englishmen shot, raped or destroyed the property of fellow British subjects on account of them being from Ulster?

If I had such clear examples I would not have asked my question; I would have my bags packed already, and the National Express tickets bought.

That doesn't help me understand why the dissolution of the UK should not end up as a chaotic mess: in which bad things happen.


But on a lighter note: any bets on how long before someone pricks Mr Cameron's fantasy that somehow the "United Kingdom" would survive as a credible title for England and the annexed Welsh principality with the Scottish colony in Ulster?

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Chorister

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Son no.1 went north of the border for his university education (St. Andrews), admittedly when fees were lower, but he received a first class education which was well worth it. And the extra year made really sure he knew which was the best subject for him to study for the final three years. I'd be disappointed if potential independence put anyone off.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Ronald Binge
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quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
quote:
Ori]ginally posted by Anglican't:
Are there any instances where Englishmen shot, raped or destroyed the property of fellow British subjects on account of them being from Ulster?

Not sure...Derry, definitely.
Quite.
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Morlader
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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
But on a lighter note: any bets on how long before someone pricks Mr Cameron's fantasy that somehow the "United Kingdom" would survive as a credible title for England and the annexed Welsh principality with the Scottish colony in Ulster?

And the annexed Cornish Kingdom/Duchy.

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.. to utmost west.

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