homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: "He descended into Hell" (Page 3)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: "He descended into Hell"
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I guess the fact the the Apostle Paul said that unrisen, unascended, unglorified Christ would make Christians the most pitiable people on earth. That suggests to me that the bodily, historical resurrection achieved something concrete and objective that is crucial to the faith.

I have always taken that to mean, if he didn't really rise, then Christianity is a sham, and we who proclaim his resurrection have been duped. Not "His ability to do something changed between Friday and Monday." Our religion is anchored in the resurrection. Jesus' abilities are not.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012

 - Posted      Profile for daronmedway     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not sure about that. The apostle Paul says that Jesus was "declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead". I take that phrase "the Son of God in power" to be a reference to the resurrected Jesus. But surely, before he was raised Jesus was "the Son of God in weakness". Isn't that what this whole kenosis thing is about?

[ 23. December 2013, 22:09: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I would say that the cross was what Jesus did and through that sacrifice we are saved/redeemed/ransomed etc.

The resurrection, OTOH, was what the Father did for Jesus. It is not an atoning action it is a vindicating action that declares Jesus to be Lord and proves that his death was not merely a martyr's death. He was made (revealed) to be Lord and Christ by virtue of the resurrection. His being raised ratified his sacrifice.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012

 - Posted      Profile for daronmedway     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hmm. And yet in Romans 4:25 the Apostle Paul says that Jesus was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. The whole package is necessary. The resurrection isn't just a vindication; it somehow achieves our justification.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not sure that we can say that the resurrection has atoning power - there is not any efficacy in the resurrection for dealing with sins. We are justified by the death of Jesus BUT without the resurrection we could not actually be justified because resurrection guarantees the work of the cross and the worthiness of Christ to atone for sin.

We are justified by the resurrection in that its absence would nullify that justification and if Christ is not raised we are still in our trespasses and sins.

[ 23. December 2013, 22:30: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012

 - Posted      Profile for daronmedway     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So, were there any justified sinners before the resurrection?
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
So, were there any justified sinners before the resurrection?

To answer that I would simply say that when Jesus went to Paradise with the message 'It is finished', he told the righteous dead that they were justified and, to prove it and 'apply' it to them, he led them out of Death as he was raised.

Had Jesus not been raised I guess he would still be in Sheol and so would they. To have the completed work of salvation made effective there needed to be a resurrection.

[ 23. December 2013, 23:00: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think maybe you're being way too timebound about this. We're talking about the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world," right? Trying to determine the exact moment when the benefits of the Cross kick in is probably something like asking how heavy is yellow. The angels are going to shake their ears and go "Wha-a-a-a' ?"

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think maybe you're being way too timebound about this. We're talking about the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world," right? Trying to determine the exact moment when the benefits of the Cross kick in is probably something like asking how heavy is yellow. The angels are going to shake their ears and go "Wha-a-a-a' ?"

Oh I agree - but there has to be a time and space event to make it relevant and 'actual' for us. If it were enough that Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world - which is not an event but a 'situation' then why bother becoming incarnate? We could just have the benefit of it all because it's how God 'is'.

It's a bit like 'justice must not only be done it must be seen to be done.'

[ 23. December 2013, 23:21: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There certainly IS a time/space event, and no, you can't avoid having it. But some of you folks are presupposing that effects always come after causes. It may not work that way from God's perspective.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274

 - Posted      Profile for Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Email Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Why must there be all this kergymaniac proof texting? What a load of codswollop -- all you are doing is speculating over the speculations of Paul and those who wrote in his name. Get over this fucking bibliolatry.

[ 24. December 2013, 00:11: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]

Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Why must there be all this kergymaniac proof texting? What a load of codswollop -- all you are doing is speculating over the speculations of Paul and those who wrote in his name. Get over this fucking bibliolatry.

I get it that you are pissed off. Hell is for the pissed off. On reflection, I am sure you'll see this was a Hellish post. No more here.

Barnabas42
Purgatory Host

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I guess the fact the the Apostle Paul said that unrisen, unascended, unglorified Christ would make Christians the most pitiable people on earth. That suggests to me that the bodily, historical resurrection achieved something concrete and objective that is crucial to the faith.

I have always taken that to mean, if he didn't really rise, then Christianity is a sham, and we who proclaim his resurrection have been duped. Not "His ability to do something changed between Friday and Monday." Our religion is anchored in the resurrection. Jesus' abilities are not.
Thanks, mousethief. I turned in last night thinking about how to respond and your post gets to the heart of the issue. What Jesus could do, indeed what He may have done in the realms of the dead (whatever they may have been and whoever was to be found there) flows from who he was, is and ever shall be. The Apostles' Creed is very brief on that; the Nicene is not.

daron, you can argue, quite reasonably as others including me have done, that there is pretty scant evidence in the New Testament documents for some of the meanings and stories attributed to the credal statement that he descended into Hell. What I read you to be doing is going further than that. You seem to be saying that until Jesus was raised from the dead there are some things he could not have done.

Based on scripture, tradition, and deep inner conviction, I believe that Jesus was indeed fully human and fully divine in His earthly ministry. His kenosis, his "incomprehensible contraction to a span" is something we puzzle about, but the scriptural and credal statements are at one over this. He was fully God and he was really made a real man. I think you believe this too.

One of Jesus' acts from the cross was to speak to a man beside him, who showed faith that Jesus would come into his kingdom, and asked humbly that he be remembered. That man was assured that he would be in Paradise. Did not Jesus have the authority to declare that? How do you think that man was justified? And, more importantly, does that matter? He heard a forgiveness and a promise of welcome into the heavenly realms despite his sins.

I do not mean this irreverently. He got that 'from the horse's mouth', from the crucified and not yet resurrected Jesus. From the one who above all others who have ever lived here had the authority to make that promise and know it was not empty words. That is what I believe and of course that affects the way I look at this strange part of the tradition concerning the 'spirits in prison'. Jesus is Lord. Who I am I to say what he can and cannot do?

[ 24. December 2013, 06:14: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012

 - Posted      Profile for daronmedway     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Still not convinced about my being overly time-bound. The problem, ISTM, is where to draw the line on this approach. Was Jesus fully man before his incarnation? Clearly not. So that's time-bound. Was Jesus pierced for our transgressions before the crucifixion? No.

However, I must say that I'm just about sold on Alan Cresswell's interpretation because it centres so strongly on the resurrection as the key moment. Christ is raised, the gates of death are burst open from the inside, Jesus becomes the gateway to glory and proclaims, "Follow me" taking captives in his train (choo choo) like the best scene that never happened from Harry Potter.

Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Still not convinced about my being overly time-bound. The problem, ISTM, is where to draw the line on this approach. Was Jesus fully man before his incarnation? Clearly not. So that's time-bound. Was Jesus pierced for our transgressions before the crucifixion? No.

And yet he was slain before the foundation of the world.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012

 - Posted      Profile for daronmedway     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Still not convinced about my being overly time-bound. The problem, ISTM, is where to draw the line on this approach. Was Jesus fully man before his incarnation? Clearly not. So that's time-bound. Was Jesus pierced for our transgressions before the crucifixion? No.

And yet he was slain before the foundation of the world.
Jesus was slain in the sense that there was a sentence of death over him from eternity but the fulfilment of that decree required the incarnation: the eternal God becoming subject to chronological time in the person of his Son.

When someone points a finger in anger and says, "You're dead" it means "I'm gong to kill you". It's a prophecy. Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. He was dead.

[ 24. December 2013, 07:31: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I believe that the experience of death is an essential part of the being and essence of God. When God told Adam that he must not eat of the tree because he will die, he also said 'the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil.'
It seems therefore that 'to die' is to have a knowledge of good and evil - 'knowledge' meaning 'to have an intimate experience of.'
So, being like God means to have an intimate experience of death.

I believe that this experience of death was not brought to God by Jesus' physical demise on the cross - it's not that Jesus had to die for God to know what death was like. Rather, in my view, the cross is an outward, physical expression of what God already experiences within himself; a sacrament in space and time, of God's eternal knowledge of death.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:

However, I must say that I'm just about sold on Alan Cresswell's interpretation because it centres so strongly on the resurrection as the key moment. Christ is raised, the gates of death are burst open from the inside, Jesus becomes the gateway to glory and proclaims, "Follow me" taking captives in his train (choo choo) like the best scene that never happened from Harry Potter.

Good, innit! I liked that too.

On time and eternity and the "places of the shades" I'm pretty taken by the C S Lewis Narnia observation that "time works differently here". I guess we can agree on some kind of eternal sequencing while acknowledging we're likely to be pretty stupid about how that works.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
@Daronmedway, yes, I can see where you're coming from and like you I consider the resurrection to be part of the whole package - 'raised to life for our justification' and would part company with Mudfrog on that point.

However, on the time-bound thing ... how do we square a linear approach with Christ's breathing on his disciples prior to Pentecost and saying, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'?

John 20:22

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jn++20:22

Ok, this was after the resurrection but it was before the Ascension and the descent of God the Holy Spirit at Pentecost ...

I'm sure there are some neat, cut-and-dried explanations that people have come up with over the years, but whatever else it suggests it suggests to me that whereas these things happen in a linear and progressive way from our perspective, it might not appear necessarily that way from God's ... if we can even put it that way.

Time and eternity intersect in all manner of mind-boggling ways throughout the scriptures ... take Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration ...

There's all manner of strange interweavings and intersections going on.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

There's all manner of strange interweavings and intersections going on.

I agree, and that's one of the reasons why I get pretty tentative in these kinds of discussions. He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has set eternity in our hearts, yet in such a way that we can't figure it all out. (Loose translation of Ecc 3:11)

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Thank GOD Angus! I've been saying it for years here to no response whatsoever. May be the time is right. You can have ALL the glory mate.

I don’t think I deserve any glory – R T France can have all the credit as far as I’m concerned. [Smile]

Having taken Hostly advice, I don’t think I’d better quote from the book I referred to as extensively as I’d like to. This is a pity, as France writes very logically and lucidly, and re-phrasing in my own words will only produce a less elegant version.

French is a very clear communicator. I have some of his books, and I also have a book on the Apostles Creed. Having recently moved to a flat with insufficient space for the bookshelves I need they were in a box, I hoped that the AC book I had was by French ... it wasn't, and it skipped over the "descended into Hades" clause without a mention. Of course, that book it sitting on the arm of the chair where I dumped it in disgust this morning, I'm at work and I can't remember the author. One of those evangelicals avoiding the difficult bits! B'ah!

quote:
We need to be aware of the whole world of Jewish mythology which is foreign to 21st century minds
Once again, evangelicals get stung by avoiding anything not in the Protestant canon of Scripture. I admit, I'm as bad as the rest of us. Thanks for summarising French on filling in those blanks.

quote:
On the subject (as debated in several posts above from Barnabas62, daronmedway, and Ad Orientem) of whether what was preached was the gospel, I don’t think that it was. The verb used is kērusso which means ‘to announce in a formal or official manner by means of a herald’ not euangelizō ‘to communicate good news concerning something (in the NT a particular reference to the gospel message about Jesus)' The confusion on this is probably caused by older versions (KJV, RV, RSV) translating both of these verbs as ‘preach’, obscuring the difference between them. (cf. ESV which translates as ‘proclaimed’).
I would add that, IMO, it's possible to "proclaim" something by actions as well as words. And, that would be quite consistent with the ministry of Jesus where he spends a lot of time demonstrating that God is bringing salvation, wholeness, justice by healing, by welcoming the outcast, by calling the sinners ... ultimately by hanging on a cross. Of course, there's a lot of teaching in the ministry of Jesus too (especially as recorded by John). But his resurrection proclaims clearly that death has been defeated.

--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Alan, I admire both your principled evangelicalism and openness to other insights.

I would tend towards the view that the 'proclamation' in this instance was by deed - as it were - rather than by word - I don't imagine a literal sermon in a literal dungeon somewhere.

However we see it, the great truth of it all is that Death and Hell have been overcome.

Praise Him!

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Quick view on 'gospel' . There is this nice short verse in Mark, 1:14 where Jesus is described as "preaching (or proclaiming) the gospel of God." The Greek is kerusso evangelion theos.

The only point I was making is that to limit the meaning of gospel to post resurrection proclamations doesn't really strike me as consistent with New Testament usage.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Quick view on 'gospel' . There is this nice short verse in Mark, 1:14 where Jesus is described as "preaching (or proclaiming) the gospel of God." The Greek is kerusso evangelion theos.

The only point I was making is that to limit the meaning of gospel to post resurrection proclamations doesn't really strike me as consistent with New Testament usage.

Absolutely not. Indeed, there seems little evidence for what modern evos call "the gospel" prior to Paul developing it (or something like it) decades after Jesus' earthly ministry. Where's it in the Sermon on the Mount? You can just about read it in to Peter's speech at Pentecost if you try hard enough, but nor does it appear to be the message preached by Jesus' disciples during his ministry either.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044

 - Posted      Profile for A.Pilgrim   Email A.Pilgrim   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Once again, evangelicals get stung by avoiding anything not in the Protestant canon of Scripture. I admit, I'm as bad as the rest of us. Thanks for summarising French on filling in those blanks.

Alan, I'm pleased you've found my post helpful; it was in response to your earlier query about the 'imprisoned spirits/angels' that I wrote it, but forgot to quote your enquiry.

I first read this book decades ago, and this piece of exegesis was a major influence in making me realise that - contrary to what I'd been taught in my conevo church - the Bible wasn't 'all that you needed in order to understand the Bible'.

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Quick view on 'gospel' . There is this nice short verse in Mark, 1:14 where Jesus is described as "preaching (or proclaiming) the gospel of God." The Greek is kerusso evangelion theos.

I did wonder whether, as I hadn't been able to carry out a systematic study of the NT to find all occurrences of kērusso to check the context, someone would find an instance of its use in connection with the gospel. However, I think it has a wider range of use than just the gospel, so while it can be used in conjunction with evangelion it can also be used for other messages as well, so the use of kērusso does not necessarily mean that what is being proclaimed is the gospel.

Angus

Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Absolutely agreed. A certain amount of cross-purposes at work in that part of the thread, but no matter.

Merry Christmas, Angus, to you and all contributors.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news (εὐαγγελίζεσθαι) to the poor.... Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing. (Luke 4:18, 21)

Jesus was preaching the gospel before the resurrection.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Alan Cresswell: That's an answer that is too easy. It begs a whole load of questions: If he's Almighty, why couldn't He just forgive us our sins? Why did Christ need to die and rise? What did it achieve? The NT authors in inummerable places state clearly that the death and resurrection of Christ (and incarnation, ascension etc) achieved something that could not have been achieved any other way. Why wasn't there another way?
I think those are good questions. Why can't He?
Yes, those are good questions. A lot rests on their answers.

There are plenty of possible answers, but to my mind the key idea is that this is not about God's cosmic struggle with evil.

Rather it is about the growth and development of the human race on this planet. Therefore it is about our own struggles with thoughts, desires, and behaviors that have the potential to destroy us - or at least make our lives miserable.

So He came "in the fullness of time" and did things that would mitigate those struggles, without removing the essential freedom of humanity to do what it wished to do.

All of the things He did had to with changing human behavior.

The central change is depicted as the outer person dying so that the inner person can live. That is, we need to prioritize God-centered and other-centered actions, and subordinate self-centered and worldly goals, if we are to be happy.

The crucifixion and resurrection acted this re-orientation out in a way that would have miraculous long-term effects.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
mousethief, you're preaching to the converted in my case. I think "the gospel" in evo terms is based on the Pauline statement that it is of first importance that Jesus died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and tbh a fair number don't get as far as "he was raised" and without that "we are to be pitied". All in 1 Cor 15 of course. And if preaching does not include why Jesus died and was raised, it ain't the real deal, or complete. That I think is where daronmedway is coming from.

But that is not "the gospel" according to the gospels, or what the church later summarised as the fourfold gospel. The way I see it, gospel has kingdom and salvation themes interwoven in such a way that any artificial partition between those themes takes away from its meaning and purpose. Since it is probably not possible to do justice to the sweep of that in one sermon, every particular preach is likely to be incomplete from that POV.

And as you and I agree, it seems very strange to limit Jesus' capabilities in speech and action on the basis of any understanding of how the church should preach the gospel.

Freddy, I've missed seeing you around!

[ 26. December 2013, 09:45: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Aye, it's an Izzard tale, involving all of the above and more. Hence mine own so very 'umble thread .

As I said there, I said, He came at the perfect time in history to shock us in to transcendent humanism which we're only just hearing in the market place.

Without Him we'd have developed secular humanism still, it's in the Greeks, the Romans, Buddha, Confucius, but without the transcendent, eternal hope of our individual, continuous existence.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
As I said there, I said, He came at the perfect time in history to shock us in to transcendent humanism which we're only just hearing in the market place.

Yes, that's it.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
He came at the perfect time in history to shock us in to transcendent humanism which we're only just hearing in the market place.

I do think that the timing here is why we have this teaching about His descent into hell.

Jesus came at just the right time. A few hundred years earlier and there would have been more barriers to the hearing, recording, and spread of His message. A few hundred years later and, well, who knows?

Jesus' rescue of those in hell remediates the injustice of His late arrival. He descended there to set free those who did not belong there. They were not wicked, but they had been trapped there since ancient times by the prevailing darkness and spiritual confusion that grew after the Fall.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ay up Freddy. Nice story. But it ain't in the text. Peter was obviously, Occamianly, talking about demons. Which is all the more intriguing. Why bother if their fate is worse than death?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Ay up Freddy. Nice story. But it ain't in the text.

Yes it is in the text. It's just that there are numerous texts, they are fairly obscure, and are therefore open to interpretation.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Peter was obviously, Occamianly, talking about demons. Which is all the more intriguing. Why bother if their fate is worse than death?

Peter is not obviously talking about demons. He says:
quote:
I Peter 3.18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
While it is not at all clear who he is talking about, it is more clear in the next chapter:
quote:
I Peter 4:5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
It is not demons that He preached to, but merely the dead.

This is clarified further in Ephesians:
quote:
Ephesians 4:8 Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”(Psalms 68:18)
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Christ descended into "the lower parts of the earth", called Sheol or Hell, to free the dead who were held captive there.

This theme of freeing the captives is repeated many times and can be read many different ways:
quote:
Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me to proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to [those who are] bound;

Isaiah 42:4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, Till He has established justice in the earth; …7 To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the prison, Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.

Zechariah 9.11 "As for you also, Because of the blood of your covenant, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit.

Psalm 68.6 “God brings out those which are bound with fetters.”

Psalm 79.11 “Let the groaning of the bound come before you. ”

Psalm 102.20 “To hear the groaning of the bound, to open to the sons of death.”

Psalm 146.7 “Jehovah who looses the bound.”

Ezekiel 26.20 “When I cause you to go down with those going down to the pit, to the people of old, and I cause you to dwell in the land of the lower ones, in the desolations from of old, so that you do not dwell with those going down to the pit, I will give beauty in the land of the living.”

Acts 2.24 Jesus of Nazareth, whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him: “For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption” ( Psalm 16.10). …He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

These do not need to be understood as applying to the harrowing of hell, but it is a legitimate interpretation.

Christ freed those who were captive in hell, who did not belong there but had become bound by the spreading darkness. Christ came to dissipate the darkness and set them free:
quote:
Isaiah 60:2 For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, And deep darkness the people; But the Lord will arise over you, And His glory will be seen upon you.

Matthew 4:13 He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the regions of Zebulun and Naphtali, 14 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:
15 “The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles:
16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light,
And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned.”
17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

The darkness had been spreading since ancient times, and Christ came as a light to that darkness.

I think that this is right there in the texts.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I think that this is right there in the texts.

Quite. What a pity you guys aren't Orthodox. [Biased]

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A.Pilgrim put a different view together re the Peter texts. What I'm clear about is that the texts Freddy quotes are those used certainly in Catholic understandings and it appears also in Orthodox understandings.

The discussion has helped me to understand the significance of "descended to the dead" in the Apostles' Creed. Thanks to contributors.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Completely obvious, again:

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—

20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

well that's ONE way of translating it. Especially verse 19.

Here's another:

1 Peter 3:18-20

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,

19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach,

20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;

the first works fine once you've made your mind up that's what He did. And to whom He did it.

The second has a more Occamic interpretation.


1 Peter 3:18-20

Revised Standard Version (RSV - a more neutral interpretation)

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;

.......... 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,

............ (Who? Peter answers this in the identical context in his next epistle. Funny that. That nobody ever sees that. But me?! (a))

.................... 20 who formerly did not obey,

............ when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.


My indents take us back, further back and forward in time.


(a) 2 Peter 2:4-5 (YLT)

4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

5 and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought,

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Who died and put Occam in charge of scriptural interpretation?

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Reason.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Minimally Peter got the bizarre idea that at the time of Noah, itself a myth with no scientific basis and in fact the utter opposite and therefore nothing to do with history but about something else, Jesus went and preached to fallen angels who were banged up in prison like the outlaws in Superman II. Again, it's not history, it's a figure of speech. He's making a totally different point, not based on any weird esoteric knowledge, even if he thought he knew any. In fact the way in which these people's minds worked fact, fiction, myth, figure of speech are all one thing. They were not being used to reveal anything about the afterlife about which they, and of course incarnate Jesus, knew nothing.

OK let's make Peter's fantasy fantastically more woodenly convoluted. During His death Jesus was transcendently alive and went to visit those who died before the Flood - for which there is only evidence that it didn't happen - thousands of years before. Human beings who had spent several lifetimes for the Methuselahs among them and tens and hundreds and thousands of lifetimes for the rest in chains and darkness. Where God the Son in his omnipotence, but not having been accepted back to fullest divinity by the Father, only in some second class state, went and preached just to them and not anyone who died in (by the million at His hand) and after the Flood. Or are they 'symbolic' of everyone?

Is that better?

Making all of this mandatory, making God out to be an ineffable cosmocidal killer outside the aberrant incarnation and somehow sanitizing it all in that?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Minimally Peter got the bizarre idea that at the time of Noah, itself a myth with no scientific basis and in fact the utter opposite and therefore nothing to do with history but about something else, Jesus went and preached to fallen angels who were banged up in prison like the outlaws in Superman II....

I don't think that it's necessary to believe in the literal Flood story to take Peter's point. The wicked people of that story simply represent a dark time that was somehow ended, followed by a reawakening of goodness represented by Noah and his family.

But no, I don't think that Peter is saying that Jesus went to people in the time of Noah.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
OK let's make Peter's fantasy fantastically more woodenly convoluted. During His death Jesus was transcendently alive and went to visit those who died before the Flood - for which there is only evidence that it didn't happen - thousands of years before. Human beings who had spent several lifetimes for the Methuselahs among them and tens and hundreds and thousands of lifetimes for the rest in chains and darkness.

Yes, this is more like it. Jesus went to people who were trapped in hell, or the "lower earth", and even who had been in prison there since the time meant by the "Flood."

The reference to Noah is a reference to a spiritual epoch, which is a common biblical idea. The idea of a Golden Age, followed by a Silver Age, followed by other ages is easily seen in the Bible. The story of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel is an example.

Jesus compares the end of the age to what happened with the Flood:
quote:
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

This is clearly what Peter has in mind as well, because elsewhere he says:
quote:
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly..
The point is that the Flood was a time of judgment like the one that Jesus is bringing. The end of one era and the beginning of another.

So Jesus' descent into hell to rescue the righteous who were imprisoned there is His reaching back to those of previous spiritual ages.

Another point is that what He did there was to "preach." This is because the purpose of His coming was to "bear witness to the truth" (John 18:37). This is the light that dissipates the darkness - effecting slow and invisible changes in this world, but rapid and miraculous ones in the spiritual world.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Reason.

Bah. Reason does not demand Occam. Occam sometimes serves Reason. Not always.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Of course it doesn't. As a rule of thumb it's a fine defense against wooden literalism and the distracting, irrelevant and toxic weirdness that entails. Sometimes reality is more complex than one can ever dream. The metaphors of Peter aren't any form of reality. Why one would want to defend them as literal 'gospel' when they serve no such intent is beyond me. Let alone defend even more bizarre wooden wroughtings of them.

Take a wooden interpretation, make it worse and build dogma on it that perpetuates God the Killer.

Why?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Of course it doesn't. As a rule of thumb it's a fine defense against wooden literalism and the distracting, irrelevant and toxic weirdness that entails. Sometimes reality is more complex than one can ever dream. The metaphors of Peter aren't any form of reality. Why one would want to defend them as literal 'gospel' when they serve no such intent is beyond me. Let alone defend even more bizarre wooden wroughtings of them.

Take a wooden interpretation, make it worse and build dogma on it that perpetuates God the Killer.

Why?

So in other words, when one doesn't like an interpretation, out comes Occam's razor. When the interpretation is to one's liking, the razor stays in its sheath. Gotcha.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No dear. They don't deconstruct or abstract to the same logical constructs at all as you well know. Unless you can't do the logic? And you are avoiding the kindergarten postmodernism entirely in favour of 'tradition', which is fine if you have to do that. Stay with that. And say nothing, which is what you're saying, in response to blood simple repentance on offer.

Parsimony can be shattered by reality, as in the absurd plethora of subatomic particles versus theoretical physics.

Peter didn't run a particle accelerator. He, a peasant fisherman, lived on the edge of a wave that had been refining weird stories for three thousand years with input from The Consciousness. And a hundred times that. And hundreds more.

He couldn't not say the weird stuff that he said. Even though he'd spent a thousand days and more with The Consciousness made flesh.

If you have to believe a weird 'interpretation', of a weird myth, that creates more problems than it solves and use trivial rhetorical devices to defend that, OK. That's all right.

Progressive revelation is a challenging concept. Luckily I'm too dumb to resist it more than for about 50 years.

And don't worry, you'll win here, you are the post champion after all, I'll give up. Done, in fact, unless you've actually got something antithetical to say?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365

 - Posted      Profile for Freddy   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Take a wooden interpretation, make it worse and build dogma on it that perpetuates God the Killer.

Why?

It doesn't need to perpetuate God the killer. I'm not sure that I understand the connection between Christ's rescue of those trapped in hell and a killer God.

The "why" of it all is apparent to me:
  • It explains how Christ's salvation was retroactive.
  • It suggests how Christ's salvation worked - through preaching that dissipated the darkness of ignorance and confusion.
  • It suggests a natural progression over long periods of time, and why Christ appeared at the time that He did.
In the end it is about God's mercy. Leaving us to do as we wish, yet providing the tools to find happiness if we wish.

--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And say nothing, which is what you're saying, in response to blood simple repentance on offer.

Are you offering me repentance? Where?

[code]

[ 28. December 2013, 06:58: Message edited by: mousethief ]

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Metanoia of your hermeneutic.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And Freddy, I'm glad that all works for you. Just as mine works for me. And never the twain can meet.

"So Jesus' descent into hell to rescue the righteous who were imprisoned there is His reaching back to those of previous spiritual ages."

I don't know where to start with the premises here and throughout, so I won't.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Metanoia of your hermeneutic.

I need to repent of thinking something you disagree with? Ooooookaaaaaayyyyyyyy. [Disappointed]

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools