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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Street harassment of women
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
So, I maintain, if someone were to say to me, "how are you?" on the street, I would make eye contact say "fine" and move on.
Not sure - a complete stranger stops you as you are walking down the street to ask "How are you?" At best, that's a bit weird. It's not a mere social nicety, for which your choice of "Hello", "Hi" or "Good (Morning|Afternoon)", possibly accompanied by a doffing of headgear, would be appropriate.
Asking "How are you?" presumes that a conversation exists. From a friend or acquaintance, that's fine, and from a shopkeeper, market vendor or someone else you're engaging in an interaction with, it's fine, but at best it presumes rather a lot for a random stranger passing you in the street.
If I was a woman, and inclined for whatever reason to feel nervous of strangers, I'm pretty sure I would be creeped out at best by someone asking "How are you?" like that.
On the other hand, if the person asks "Excuse me, can you tell me how I get to the station?" or something else normal, I'd be less inclined to worry.
Again, the part about body language is missing. And I guess that's understandable because people have little scripts in their head about how these things usually go. You said, a stranger stops me in the street and that is aggressive body language. I don't know what I would do. I would not ignore it. I would most likely respond, "fine", and move pointedly away, and yes, I would feel threatened if someone stopped me. The "street harassment" I've seen and experienced are more like comments and questions made while I'm walking and they are standing still. But, I am talking about a "hello" or "how are you" that is meant to convey appreciation for my looks. And the only reason I use the phrase, " How are you", is because I was previously talking about the phrase, "How are you getting on?" Which wouldn't be said in America. I would most likely respond with, "Getting on what?" "How are you?" was the closest phrase. Usually, I hear, "Hello", or "Good evening", and those are the phrases my friends ignore. I don't get it.
I hesitate to say this, because I don't want to offend, but I have to ask, is there a pond difference? I was in Ireland this past summer and, wow, people are friendly. While I was walking with my sons down the street, in Galway, a girl yelled, "I want to fuck her!", pointing at me. I was startled and confused but I also laughed. So did my sons. So did others around me. I felt like she said it with sarcasm, which was offensive to me, actually! What? Do you really, or are you teasing me? Lol
And I noticed that people were not at all shy in Ireland. Outside of pubs, I didn't get hit on directly, but people were not shy in looking and, staring. And in pubs.....very friendly. In an appreciative manner. But also not at all bothered by a friendly, "haha" rebuff. I found it different than in America.
Of course not to say that extremely creepy things haven't happened to me over the years on occasion in America, but mostly in the cities. But usually, and same with my young friends, comments and questions are relayed to women they find attractive as they are walking and they are walking away or standing still. Following in any way shape or form or invading personal space is a completely different matter.
I also have to say that I did a sort of poll on a Facebook group (not my personal Facebook group, but a group largely made up of people I don't know. All women. Over 500.) I asked what would you do if someone said hello to you in an appreciative manner. All of the replies were similar to mine. Respond, smile, move on. With the most popular response being, "eat that shit up". Lol. I like being appreciated. But I guess I'm comfortable with my looks being commented on, which is literally a whole other thread. About 30 people responded in some way shape or form, and there are 500 so I'm sure there were some that would be creeped out. But there are plenty like me, that would appreciate my looks still being appreciated, and are not creeped out by it.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I echo those comments about Ireland. Stand outside a pub in summer, and usually you will be involved in a conversation in about 5 minutes, with probably some nice tales about salmon poaching or the like.
Say you're from London, and people get quite animated - I remember 'I went there once, and 'twas disgusting'!
But I remember when I first went with my wife up to Lancashire and Yorkshire, where I have family connections, and she was startled by the friendliness of people in the streets, shops, pubs, just about anywhere. But she grew to like it. Somebody asking 'how are you?' is quite normal in some areas, not just in rural areas.
My wife has also been a great walker all her life, and she regularly tramps around London and Norfolk on her own, day and night, with no apparent problems.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I've seen men make a fairly benign comment to them, which they ignore and walk away. Then I see the men look quite annoyed, and sometimes a dark look will cross their face and sometimes they make a more aggressive comment. If someone makes a fairly benign comment to me, which it still does on occasion, I always meet their eye, smile, and then look away or down. I think to do otherwise shows disrespect, and insecurity.
I completely disagree. If men are saying something to these attractive women hoping for a response, and getting angry when they don't get it, that says way more about them than the women. No one is obliged to respond to a stranger on the street.
I live in a fairly rural area and I say hello to people I pass on the street, because that seems to be the norm here. Now, I'm female, so it's not going to be interpreted as a male to female flirtation thing. And it's literally just a hello. But I am not offended if someone doesn't respond, because everyone is different. I certainly don't expect eye contact. Not everyone does eye contact. Not everyone does smiles either. When you say something to a stranger, you have no idea what's going on in their head - they could have just experienced a tragedy, they could be someone with a disability that stops them being able to talk, or to smile even, they could be from a culture where they don't say hello to strangers, or all kinds of things. To say something to someone on the street and then get angry that they don't respond is rather presumptuous of these men, I think.
And I'm guessing that 'fairly benign' means more than just a hello? Or not? To me, 'hello' is completely benign.
"The dark look" incident I noticed once.
I see my friends regularly ignore "hello", and "how are you, ladies?"
I think it's best to respond politely because it shows confidence and confidence can derail potential actual harassment. It has nothing to do with entitlement.
I think it's best to respond politely because polite is, well, polite.
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I echo those comments about Ireland. Stand outside a pub in summer, and usually you will be involved in a conversation in about 5 minutes, with probably some nice tales about salmon poaching or the like.
Say you're from London, and people get quite animated - I remember 'I went there once, and 'twas disgusting'!
But I remember when I first went with my wife up to Lancashire and Yorkshire, where I have family connections, and she was startled by the friendliness of people in the streets, shops, pubs, just about anywhere. But she grew to like it. Somebody asking 'how are you?' is quite normal in some areas, not just in rural areas.
My wife has also been a great walker all her life, and she regularly tramps around London and Norfolk on her own, day and night, with no apparent problems.
We also went to London for a few days, but we were very touristy and nobody hit on a lady and her two sons taking pictures of the Tower of London. Darn it.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I suppose the other thing is, my wife has a great serenity and loveliness, which is, well, fucking terifying!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
There's a sense that some people are experiencing worse harassment than others do (if any). I wonder if I can ask explicitly how women who have experienced this harassment feel - whether matters are deteriorating, improving, or much as they ever were?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I see my friends regularly ignore "hello", and "how are you, ladies?"
I think it's best to respond politely because it shows confidence and confidence can derail potential actual harassment. It has nothing to do with entitlement.
I think it's best to respond politely because polite is, well, polite.
This.
I have never been stopped but, if somebody on the street asks how I am, I generally smile and say "Fine thanks" or, if they tell me I am looking good, I thank them but I do not break stride at all. I have never had any problems as a result of doing this. I suppose I may have had some black looks but by then I was past them and did not see.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I've seen men make a fairly benign comment to them, which they ignore and walk away. Then I see the men look quite annoyed, and sometimes a dark look will cross their face and sometimes they make a more aggressive comment. If someone makes a fairly benign comment to me, which it still does on occasion, I always meet their eye, smile, and then look away or down. I think to do otherwise shows disrespect, and insecurity.
I completely disagree. If men are saying something to these attractive women hoping for a response, and getting angry when they don't get it, that says way more about them than the women. No one is obliged to respond to a stranger on the street.
I live in a fairly rural area and I say hello to people I pass on the street, because that seems to be the norm here. Now, I'm female, so it's not going to be interpreted as a male to female flirtation thing. And it's literally just a hello. But I am not offended if someone doesn't respond, because everyone is different. I certainly don't expect eye contact. Not everyone does eye contact. Not everyone does smiles either. When you say something to a stranger, you have no idea what's going on in their head - they could have just experienced a tragedy, they could be someone with a disability that stops them being able to talk, or to smile even, they could be from a culture where they don't say hello to strangers, or all kinds of things. To say something to someone on the street and then get angry that they don't respond is rather presumptuous of these men, I think.
And I'm guessing that 'fairly benign' means more than just a hello? Or not? To me, 'hello' is completely benign.
"The dark look" incident I noticed once.
I see my friends regularly ignore "hello", and "how are you, ladies?"
I think it's best to respond politely because it shows confidence and confidence can derail potential actual harassment. It has nothing to do with entitlement.
I think it's best to respond politely because polite is, well, polite.
It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.
I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Honest Ron - really difficult to say - we get older and the way men respond to older women means that my experiences 20 odd years ago wouldn't be comparable to anything I'm experiencing now.
Years ago, out with a friend in Covent Garden, she pointed out when I got whistled at or shouted comments. Across the street or market I just assumed that there was someone else being whistled at and ignored it, and hadn't really paid attention. It made me really uncomfortable for a few days until I could put that back into the box of "happening to someone else".
I tend to say "Thank you" or "Fine" and keep moving when addressed in the street.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I've seen men make a fairly benign comment to them, which they ignore and walk away. Then I see the men look quite annoyed, and sometimes a dark look will cross their face and sometimes they make a more aggressive comment. If someone makes a fairly benign comment to me, which it still does on occasion, I always meet their eye, smile, and then look away or down. I think to do otherwise shows disrespect, and insecurity.
I completely disagree. If men are saying something to these attractive women hoping for a response, and getting angry when they don't get it, that says way more about them than the women. No one is obliged to respond to a stranger on the street.
I live in a fairly rural area and I say hello to people I pass on the street, because that seems to be the norm here. Now, I'm female, so it's not going to be interpreted as a male to female flirtation thing. And it's literally just a hello. But I am not offended if someone doesn't respond, because everyone is different. I certainly don't expect eye contact. Not everyone does eye contact. Not everyone does smiles either. When you say something to a stranger, you have no idea what's going on in their head - they could have just experienced a tragedy, they could be someone with a disability that stops them being able to talk, or to smile even, they could be from a culture where they don't say hello to strangers, or all kinds of things. To say something to someone on the street and then get angry that they don't respond is rather presumptuous of these men, I think.
And I'm guessing that 'fairly benign' means more than just a hello? Or not? To me, 'hello' is completely benign.
"The dark look" incident I noticed once.
I see my friends regularly ignore "hello", and "how are you, ladies?"
I think it's best to respond politely because it shows confidence and confidence can derail potential actual harassment. It has nothing to do with entitlement.
I think it's best to respond politely because polite is, well, polite.
It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.
I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered
I feel like I keep saying the same thing. Responding politely portrays yourself as CONFIDENT Confidence is a much better protective than fear and rudeness.
There are two reasons that I respond politely. One is CONFIDENCE which is a proactive approach to maintaining my SAFETY . I don't care whether or not they feel entitled or not or should feel entitled.
The other is I am not afraid of rape and murder simply because a member of the opposite sex (or the same sex) has said hello to me, or god forbid, appreciates the way I look. To pair the two is paranoid.
When someone speaks to you, there is an expectation to acknowledge that you have been spoken to. They are not entitled to a response, but it is usually expected. When someone appreciates the way you look and says so, it may be understandable to not reply for a variety of personal reasons. However, in general, when someone is saying hello to you, it is usually expected that you say hello back. Or, can you at least smile?
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
Let me apologize now. I just got finished talking with my son's girlfriend and I've realized that I don't like the way I've responded.
I think I'm just getting frustrated. I feel like your insistence that I should not respond somewhat offensive because it seems to indirectly insinuate that a woman who does respond as I do, and even may enjoy the appreciation, that I then "deserve" what I might get. I don't at all think that you would think such a monstrous thing, but I realize that is the root of my frustration. I would respond with a smile and a thank you, I would not break stride, however. And I'm not changing.
It's also frustrating to not be heard what I'm saying about behaving with confidence, which is what helps me feel safe in my world.
My son's girlfriend was telling me similar stories that I've heard here. People grabbing her, following her, and it's awful.
I do think that to not respond to a simple hello is rude. However, men should know that if a woman does ignore that, it is most likely due to the predatory and disrespectful behavior of other men.
So, you respond as you do, and I respond as I would, and there should be no judgement on either end.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Let me apologize now. I just got finished talking with my son's girlfriend and I've realized that I don't like the way I've responded.
I think I'm just getting frustrated. I feel like your insistence that I should not respond somewhat offensive because it seems to indirectly insinuate that a woman who does respond as I do, and even may enjoy the appreciation, that I then "deserve" what I might get. I don't at all think that you would think such a monstrous thing, but I realize that is the root of my frustration. I would respond with a smile and a thank you, I would not break stride, however. And I'm not changing.
It's also frustrating to not be heard what I'm saying about behaving with confidence, which is what helps me feel safe in my world.
My son's girlfriend was telling me similar stories that I've heard here. People grabbing her, following her, and it's awful.
I do think that to not respond to a simple hello is rude. However, men should know that if a woman does ignore that, it is most likely due to the predatory and disrespectful behavior of other men.
So, you respond as you do, and I respond as I would, and there should be no judgement on either end.
Hang on, I'm not insisting that you do anything. I don't care how you respond to comments. I just care that I am allowed not to be polite to every single person who says something to me.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I don't see the point of judging someone who responds any more than judging someone who doesn't. The important thing is to ignore what other people might think and really listen to your instincts. And to allow other people to do the same.
If you're instincts are saying,"This is a safe person!" go for it. I hugged a total stranger in a bar the other day simply because something told me he would be ok with it, and he was a safe person. (He had identified himself as a fellow alumnus, in case you're wondering why I was so bold.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I think I'm just getting frustrated. I feel like your insistence that I should not respond somewhat offensive because it seems to indirectly insinuate that a woman who does respond as I do, and even may enjoy the appreciation, that I then "deserve" what I might get.
I don't know if you meant me or Jade Constable, but I wasn't insisting that you shouldn't respond either. People are free to choose whether to respond or not. My point was simply that no one is obliged to respond, and I don't think it's possible to infer anything about a person who doesn't respond, because everyone is so different. Same with people who do respond - everyone is different and has different reasons. And I think that when a person addresses a stranger, it's important for them to be aware of this, and not feel entitled to a certain response.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Me too. Respond any way you like to. I won't tell you not to. If it works for you, fine. But please don't tell me I'm being rude because I myself choose not to engage in randomly offered conversations with people I don't know on the street.
Look, so much of this goes by context. I happen to live in a tiny tiny neighborhood where everybody more or less knows each other by sight, and so of course we all smile and wave when we see each other on the street. Since I am faceblind, that extends in my case to random strangers driving down the street--I assume they are my neighbors, since I can't tell. The context is a safe one--as safe as we're going to get this side of eternity, anyway.
But I live in the suburbs on the edge of a large city where I work and serve. Outside of my neighborhood I am emphatically NOT going to respond to "Hi there" on the street unless said person is clearly eighty years old and feeble into the bargain, because of all the nasty experiences I've had, less than half a mile from home. And just outside my workplace men cruise for prostitutes. Yeah, it's that kind of neighborhood. And confidence there means ignoring the catcalls, standing tall, and acting like you heard nothing. Either that, or carrying a gun.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
I've experienced all kinds of sexual harassment as I have to rely on public transportation to do grocery shopping, visit the doctor, etc. As a more "butch" looking lesbian, I get a lot of snide/sexist/homophobic comments directed at me. When my wife is out with me, people don't usually say too much to either of our faces, perhaps because my wife will not hesitate to confront them. Some men are so threatened by us, it would be funny if it wasn't so obnoxious/potentially dangerous. When I'm out alone, I have been hit on by various men of African origin who assured me that they could "cure" me of my lesbianism and that they would love to marry me because I have "wide, childbearing hips"! One time, a stranger "accidentally" brushed his hand across my breasts. I thought my wife was going to rip his arm out of its socket. He fled soon after trying that stunt.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
Yes, context is important here. It's everything. It's impossible to make judgement calls. But I would say, that when I see my young friends, where I am following right along with them so I am in the context, ignore a "good evening ladies", I find it odd. I love them very dearly, but I do think its rude of them. But I know why they ignore. Because they are afraid. And I think that's sad that they feel that threatened. I can't speak to any of your situations.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
So then if you know it's because of fear, please don't call them (or those of us who do the same) rude. Self-preservation is not rude, those who talk to them are not entitled to a conversation.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I guess that is what I meant by this:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
What I guess I keep asking is can't anyone see how repeated dodgy incidents might make someone hypervigilant? Whether they agree with the resulting MO or not?
This thread alone has offered up many reasons a woman in particular might find herself hypervigilant-- whether customarily or situationally. I just think we should cut ladies who are in that space some slack, because we really don't know what the story is.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
The thing that irritates me most about this thread is women calling my nonresponse tactic "rude".
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I guess that is what I meant by this:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
What I guess I keep asking is can't anyone see how repeated dodgy incidents might make someone hypervigilant? Whether they agree with the resulting MO or not?
This thread alone has offered up many reasons a woman in particular might find herself hypervigilant-- whether customarily or situationally. I just think we should cut ladies who are in that space some slack, because we really don't know what the story is.
Yes
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
The thing that irritates me most about this thread is women calling my nonresponse tactic "rude".
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
So then if you know it's because of fear, please don't call them (or those of us who do the same) rude. Self-preservation is not rude, those who talk to them are not entitled to a conversation.
I'm being very specific here. Once, when I was walking with my friends on the streets on the way to a bar dressed nicely, some men said to them, "Good Evening ladies." My friends ignored them. I saw no reason to ignore them. I can call that rude, imo, I was there. I understand why they ignored that particular greeting and person.
Due to differing contexts, (which I have repeatedly remarked on throughout this whole thread) and environments, I can't possibly judge any of your situations. (And if it seems like I have I apologize)
But I can most certainly judge my own experiences.
My friends (one comes to mind particularly) are afraid which comes across as rude. I think (one) she is like that because of personal situations she has encountered. That is very sad. And I honestly worry for her, because I feel, (stating again) that she radiates fear with that countenance and she needs to radiate confidence. And she is like that because other men have been disrespectful to her.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
The thing that irritates me most about this thread is women calling my nonresponse tactic "rude".
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
So then if you know it's because of fear, please don't call them (or those of us who do the same) rude. Self-preservation is not rude, those who talk to them are not entitled to a conversation.
I'm being very specific here. Once, when I was walking with my friends on the streets on the way to a bar dressed nicely, some men said to them, "Good Evening ladies." My friends ignored them. I saw no reason to ignore them. I can call that rude, imo, I was there. I understand why they ignored that particular greeting and person.
Due to differing contexts, (which I have repeatedly remarked on throughout this whole thread) and environments, I can't possibly judge any of your situations. (And if it seems like I have I apologize)
But I can most certainly judge my own experiences.
My friends (one comes to mind particularly) are afraid which comes across as rude. I think (one) she is like that because of personal situations she has encountered. That is very sad. And I honestly worry for her, because I feel, (stating again) that she radiates fear with that countenance and she needs to radiate confidence. And she is like that because other men have been disrespectful to her.
Um, I understand the situation totally, it is still wrong to call someone rude because they are SCARED. You need to mind your own business and not police your friend's emotions.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
Ridiculous. I'm not policing anything.
[ 20. January 2014, 13:00: Message edited by: Fool on the hill ]
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I'm not sure if this is a tangent.... but as a bearded male of a certain age who generally moves about Ottawa on foot or on public transport, I am often addressed in unsought conversation by people. I usually just respond in a neutral manner while waiting for the bus, or continuing onward-- sometimes they are just lonely and not entirely there, or just being friendly-- but frequently they want to impose their conversations and their personalities on me. They have viewpoints-- usually about minorities or women-- and will declaim on these perspectives like a radio talk show host. I do not feel that I am rude in feeling no need to respond to these unsought lectures or interchanges, and I just continue on my way.
Others have pointed out how the situation of women is more complex, and questions of safety can never be absent.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Ridiculous. I'm not policing anything.
You are making some very rude comments about your friend's behaviour that perpetuate the idea that women are public property and that rudeness is worse than women's safety. Fear is a TOTALLY VALID reason to ignore someone. It is not rude. It is hardwired into us. There is no 'should' about how your friend should feel, please let her have ownership over her own emotions and not try to change her so she is more socially acceptable.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Ridiculous. I'm not policing anything.
You are making some very rude comments about your friend's behaviour that perpetuate the idea that women are public property and that rudeness is worse than women's safety. Fear is a TOTALLY VALID reason to ignore someone. It is not rude. It is hardwired into us. There is no 'should' about how your friend should feel, please let her have ownership over her own emotions and not try to change her so sh
e is more socially acceptable.
You have absolutely no idea who my friend is, what she is like or how my relationship is with her.
[ 20. January 2014, 15:31: Message edited by: Fool on the hill ]
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
You have absolutely no idea who my friend is, what she is like or how my relationship is with her.
We can only go on what you've told us.
That she behaved in a perfectly understandable manner based on her past experience, which you knew about, yet you still saw fit to describe her response as "rude" and then share that with strangers in the internet.
If you evaluated her behaviour as "rude", then by extension you think anyone else behaving in the same way is demonstrating rude behavior, and I and several others take exception to that.
If you have simply categorised your friend as a rude person who therefore exhibits rude behaviour then that's between you and her.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
I'm not sure I'd agree that someone choosing not to respond to a stranger's greeting on the street is "rude" even if the non-responder isn't frightened.
I think it's lovely to live in a friendly community where people offer greetings to strangers. But those greetings ought to be offered on their own merit, without demanding anything in return. I don't think a stranger on the street should be obligated by some unwritten social code to respond in any way if they choose not to-- for whatever reason. A "hello" is just a "hello"-- not a demand for social interaction.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
In the Guardian's reporting of the LibDem's current "harassment" issue (quotes because of unresolved nature of situation) Report I found this part way through the story. quote:
Rennard's cause was not helped by a BBC interview in which one of his supporters, Chris Davies MEP, said: "This is not Jimmy Savile. This is touching someone's leg six years ago at a meeting through clothing. This is the equivalent a few years ago of an Italian man pinching a woman's bottom. How much is this man going to have to suffer through media condemnation that comes out day after day fed by the party leadership? It is completely out of proportion, nonsense and outrageous."
With attitudes like this in his supporters, I can see why he doesn't think he has done anything wrong. I had that done to me by someone who looked Italian in the Petticoat Lane Market long ago, and I thought it was wrong then - and so did he, from the smirking look on his face when I turned to confront him. (I did nothing.) And it is clearly related to street harassment in the minds of some who should know better.
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
My friends (one comes to mind particularly) are afraid which comes across as rude. I think (one) she is like that because of personal situations she has encountered. That is very sad. And I honestly worry for her, because I feel, (stating again) that she radiates fear with that countenance and she needs to radiate confidence. And she is like that because other men have been disrespectful to her.
In my idiolect, saying that somebody "comes across as rude" is not the same as saying that somebody "is rude". But YMMV.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
... Fear is a TOTALLY VALID reason to ignore someone. ... It is hardwired into us. ...
If you're going to play the "hardwired" card, please explain how ignoring danger is a succesful evolutionary strategy. ISTM that "La la la I'm not looking" is a really good way to end up as somebody's lunch.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alicïa
Shipmate
# 7668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
... Fear is a TOTALLY VALID reason to ignore someone. ... It is hardwired into us. ...
If you're going to play the "hardwired" card, please explain how ignoring danger is a succesful evolutionary strategy. ISTM that "La la la I'm not looking" is a really good way to end up as somebody's lunch.
There is a big difference between responding directly to danger, and ignoring it. When was the last time you responded by being polite to a creature that may eat you for lunch? If your going for that metaphor.
[ 20. January 2014, 21:42: Message edited by: Alicïa ]
Posts: 884 | From: Where the Art is. | Registered: Jun 2004
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
<snip> It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.
I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered
Given your recent complaints about people who presume all other people (as opposed to ninety-x percent of them) to be heterosexual, you might like to cut out the blanket judgements on the states of men's minds.
[ 20. January 2014, 21:52: Message edited by: Dinghy Sailor ]
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alicïa:
There is a big difference between responding directly to danger, and ignoring it. When was the last time you responded by being polite to a creature that may eat you for lunch? If your going for that metaphor.
There's also a huge range of options between "being polite" (whatever that is) and ignoring danger. Animals also use a lot of different strategies to evade predators or avoid detection. A group of small birds will mob a hawk, for example. Sometimes just a behavioural "I see you" - the animal equivalent of nodding or making eye contact - is enough to dissuade a predator. However, it is a myth that ostriches stick their heads in the sand when they are scared. Only people think, "I didn't see you, so you didn't see me, hee hee!"
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm not sure I'd agree that someone choosing not to respond to a stranger's greeting on the street is "rude" even if the non-responder isn't frightened.
I think it's lovely to live in a friendly community where people offer greetings to strangers. But those greetings ought to be offered on their own merit, without demanding anything in return. I don't think a stranger on the street should be obligated by some unwritten social code to respond in any way if they choose not to-- for whatever reason. A "hello" is just a "hello"-- not a demand for social interaction.
See Augustine's post above.
Further point-- "Prowlers"( for lack of a better word), street ministers, and solicitors all use a person's fear of being rude as leverage for continuing a conversation, even when the person has made it clear they don't want to be in it. People can be pinned helplessly in place forever because they haven't the heart to interrupt someone.Making people (of either gender-- thanks for your input, Augustine!)too beholden to courtesy gives people who tend toward manipulation a great tool for manipulating others.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Alicïa:
There is a big difference between responding directly to danger, and ignoring it. When was the last time you responded by being polite to a creature that may eat you for lunch? If your going for that metaphor.
There's also a huge range of options between "being polite" (whatever that is) and ignoring danger. Animals also use a lot of different strategies to evade predators or avoid detection. A group of small birds will mob a hawk, for example. Sometimes just a behavioural "I see you" - the animal equivalent of nodding or making eye contact - is enough to dissuade a predator. However, it is a myth that ostriches stick their heads in the sand when they are scared. Only people think, "I didn't see you, so you didn't see me, hee hee!"
Animals also don't' really have to worry about (say) a tiger drawing them into a long, inescapable conversation.
If any "hardwiring" comes in, it is from conditioning-- some people have just had more fucked up social experiences than others. Their responses will become visceral and automatic rather than chosen-- this might be as good a definition of "hard-wiring " as any.
Point being, unless you are willing to pull X person aside and say, "I noticed you drew away from that guy, and he seemed perfectly friendly to me-- what was wrong?" and genuinely consider the response-- (which could be anything from something stupid like "His shoes were cheap." to something serious like,"He looked exactly like the guy who grabbed my boob on the Muni this morning, and I wasn't gonna stick around to see if he was") -- person should really take their time about judging someone's response.
(for the record: building on those posts, not arguing with them.)
[ 21. January 2014, 06:04: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.
I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered
Jade,
Do you have any evidence that responding briefly to an unwanted approach is more likely to get you raped and murdered than ignoring it? If your analysis is right, I would have thought that ignoring the bloke would be more likely to annoy him and thus increase the chances of violence.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Point being, unless you are willing to pull X person aside and say, "I noticed you drew away from that guy, and he seemed perfectly friendly to me-- what was wrong?" and genuinely consider the response-- (which could be anything from something stupid like "His shoes were cheap." to something serious like,"He looked exactly like the guy who grabbed my boob on the Muni this morning, and I wasn't gonna stick around to see if he was") -- person should really take their time about judging someone's response.
(for the record: building on those posts, not arguing with them.)
Just to respond to the part about the judging....I wouldn't say anything to my friend unless we were in a conversation online or elsewhere, entitled, maybe, something like, I don't know, "street harassment of women", and then I might tell her my honest thoughts and feelings about how she comes across to what I feel are innocent flirtations or greetings. After five years of friendship, I think I could say I've taken my time!
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm not sure I'd agree that someone choosing not to respond to a stranger's greeting on the street is "rude" even if the non-responder isn't frightened.
I think it's lovely to live in a friendly community where people offer greetings to strangers. But those greetings ought to be offered on their own merit, without demanding anything in return. I don't think a stranger on the street should be obligated by some unwritten social code to respond in any way if they choose not to-- for whatever reason. A "hello" is just a "hello"-- not a demand for social interaction.
See Augustine's post above.
Further point-- "Prowlers"( for lack of a better word), street ministers, and solicitors all use a person's fear of being rude as leverage for continuing a conversation, even when the person has made it clear they don't want to be in it. People can be pinned helplessly in place forever because they haven't the heart to interrupt someone.Making people (of either gender-- thanks for your input, Augustine!)too beholden to courtesy gives people who tend toward manipulation a great tool for manipulating others.
But there's a big difference between responding to a greeting and being unable to extricate yourself from an interaction. As has been noted, body language is a huge factor and keeping stride is an important part of the message that you're not interested in further interaction.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alicïa:
When was the last time you responded by being polite to a creature that may eat you for lunch? If your going for that metaphor.
In the unlikely event that I ever met a creature likely to eat me for lunch I'm pretty damn sure I'd start off by being very polite.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Definitely think that the issue with Fool on the Hill's friend sounds cultural to me. I don't know whether FotH and her friend live in an urban area or not, but certainly in my urban area most people don't respond when strangers speak to them on the street. I certainly don't feel any obligation though if the person seems polite enough, and not pushy or crazy, I might respond briefly as I continue to walk briskly away. Certainly I have noticed that my husband is one of the few people I know who even bothers to respond with a "No thanks!" to beggars and Streetwise vendors.
FotH sees a place where everyone responds to everyone as friendly, while I've lived in a small backstabbing town, and had an absolutely miserable time of it. So that sounds much more nightmarish to me. When everyone speaks to everyone, who counts as no one? Who is left out? Someone always is, so I'd rather live in an unfriendly place where no one speaks with no one!
Re human predators or those who might be such, I tend to think it safest to let them know I am aware of them and that I am not intimidated. I also don't give them any other reaction to catch their interest. Best way to avoid a scene is for us both to continue on our business, I think.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Definitely think that the issue with Fool on the Hill's friend sounds cultural to me. I don't know whether FotH and her friend live in an urban area or not, but certainly in my urban area most people don't respond when strangers speak to them on the street. I certainly don't feel any obligation though if the person seems polite enough, and not pushy or crazy, I might respond briefly as I continue to walk briskly away. Certainly I have noticed that my husband is one of the few people I know who even bothers to respond with a "No thanks!" to beggars and Streetwise vendors.
FotH sees a place where everyone responds to everyone as friendly, while I've lived in a small backstabbing town, and had an absolutely miserable time of it. So that sounds much more nightmarish to me. When everyone speaks to everyone, who counts as no one? Who is left out? Someone always is, so I'd rather live in an unfriendly place where no one speaks with no one!
Re human predators or those who might be such, I tend to think it safest to let them know I am aware of them and that I am not intimidated. I also don't give them any other reaction to catch their interest. Best way to avoid a scene is for us both to continue on our business, I think.
No, it's not cultural for her, in that she grew up in an urban area. She grew up in an affluent small suburb. She did go to college near the city, and has lived near the city now for a year. Her reaction to street flirtations mirrors her reaction to other things in life. I used to think that she was afraid of nothing. I think now, she is afraid of a great many things that she may just now be confronting. To say that she can come off as rude, is, yea, quite true. She can be quite harsh and has lost mutual friends because of it. I think she has deep rooted issues. (Which in no way implies, "by extension" anyone here has the same because that would be ridiculous)
I live in the suburbs, but we go to the city frequently, and that's where these things occur. I can tell the difference between a flirtatious hello, a completely innocent hello, and a hello that implies they mean to follow me.
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Alicïa
Shipmate
# 7668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Alicïa:
When was the last time you responded by being polite to a creature that may eat you for lunch? If your going for that metaphor.
In the unlikely event that I ever met a creature likely to eat me for lunch I'm pretty damn sure I'd start off by being very polite.
Oh. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Well when you put it like that it sounds right, but this is the problem with metaphors and such they can be quite misleading in understanding a situation. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Polite yes, but reserving the right not to engage with it is not what I personally would call impolite, in real and imaginary situations.
As for being harassed in the street which is after all the OP, I have experienced it framed as being friendly. Like being followed for a good mile being asked to go for a drink with someone who obviously thought they were being nice, just because I smiled at them and I had no interest in going for a drink with that person, only getting into a taxi stopped them from following me. That time I feel that looking back - completely ignoring their comment would have been better.
It's mild but a polite no thank you did not seem to deter the individual till it became very creepy indeed. I have several similar experiences and although I have come to no relative harm unwanted attention is unwanted attention and as you can never tell what someones intentions are, I err on the side of caution, including when I feel it warrants it, completely ignoring people.
If this is not a good "evolutionary strategy" in some peoples opinion that is fine, but in mine it has served me well enough and I don't feel the onus is on me to spare peoples feelings it is on them also to be polite in the first place.
[ 21. January 2014, 15:04: Message edited by: Alicïa ]
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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness
Posts: 884 | From: Where the Art is. | Registered: Jun 2004
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I live in the suburbs, but we go to the city frequently, and that's where these things occur. I can tell the difference between a flirtatious hello, a completely innocent hello, and a hello that implies they mean to follow me.
Which is completely fair enough. I am happy to trust that you would know that your friend is scared and overly brusque. However, I would definitely feel free to ignore all three hellos even if I could tell that the flirtatious hello was innocent, etc. When I'm in my own little corner of the city I respond to innocent-seeming hellos if there seem to be no strings because I like the idea of neighborliness, but I never stop walking, so I wouldn't say my hellos are all that friendly either!
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
It's dawning on me that part of the problem is that I am a lot friendlier than I think I am. ( Gwai, i always nod and smile at panhandlers, even though i am in no position to hand out money.) And if anything, i am the one likely to start bored conversation with someone who looks willing. (I eat out alone a lot.)So, in my mind, if someone is put off from approaching someone, there must be a darn good reason. In any case, I still don't see the point of assessing someone else's behavior when the most productive thing is to take charge of your own, however you want it to be.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It's dawning on me that part of the problem is that I am a lot friendlier than I think I am.
I Never know what my face is doing or how people will view it. It will move to my inner dialogue, completely ignoring there are others about. (No, I was not smiling at you, so stop winking!) Other times it is stone-still, even when I think I am smiling. I think it has its own, separate brain. I know my mouth does.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
This conversation came to mind yesterday morning as I managed to get into conversation with the guy on the temporary traffic light duty. My fault, I was looking his way thinking camera angles and he said hello, so we exchanged a couple of comments as I kept walking. That's not unusual.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Hate that. I will look in a direction, lost in thought and someone will wander into the line of sight and it will appear that I am starring at them.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
This conversation came to mind yesterday morning as I managed to get into conversation with the guy on the temporary traffic light duty. My fault, I was looking his way thinking camera angles and he said hello, so we exchanged a couple of comments as I kept walking. That's not unusual.
Struck by, "my fault". Fault? Those moments can be lovely moments in life. Connection.
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