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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Street harassment of women
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Let me apologize now. I just got finished talking with my son's girlfriend and I've realized that I don't like the way I've responded.
I think I'm just getting frustrated. I feel like your insistence that I should not respond somewhat offensive because it seems to indirectly insinuate that a woman who does respond as I do, and even may enjoy the appreciation, that I then "deserve" what I might get. I don't at all think that you would think such a monstrous thing, but I realize that is the root of my frustration. I would respond with a smile and a thank you, I would not break stride, however. And I'm not changing.
It's also frustrating to not be heard what I'm saying about behaving with confidence, which is what helps me feel safe in my world.
My son's girlfriend was telling me similar stories that I've heard here. People grabbing her, following her, and it's awful.
I do think that to not respond to a simple hello is rude. However, men should know that if a woman does ignore that, it is most likely due to the predatory and disrespectful behavior of other men.
So, you respond as you do, and I respond as I would, and there should be no judgement on either end.
It's the "not respond = rude" part that's problematic-- for the exact same reasons that you dislike it when others try to change your habit of responding with confidence.
The point in both cases is not to be controlled by fear, but also not to be controlled by another person's behavior. We should not feel bound to either respond or not respond by the actions of a stranger. Different people will respond differently in that situation for a variety of reasons-- temperament, cultural background, past experiences, prior presuppositions. They should be free to do so without being labeled either "foolish" or "rude".
But then, if the point is not to be controlled by other's, that means we don't need to be terribly worried about how others' interpret our response or lack thereof.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
This conversation came to mind yesterday morning as I managed to get into conversation with the guy on the temporary traffic light duty. My fault, I was looking his way thinking camera angles and he said hello, so we exchanged a couple of comments as I kept walking. That's not unusual.
Struck by, "my fault". Fault? Those moments can be lovely moments in life. Connection.
Those moment can be horrid moments in life. Connection. [url= http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/n'est-ce_pas]N'est-ce_pas?[/url]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
To add to what cliffdweller said, that's why I've been trying to get across that I think it's cultural. I've been taught that there is no obligation to respond to anyone one doesn't know. And this isn't a brand new thing made up by scared womene either. Heck, I could quote Miss Manners saying so. I didn't do so before because she isn't particularly why I feel confidently polite in not replying. Instead I've been trying to explain that in my perception of my culture, a response is not particularly expected often, and sometimes one is taken as escalation even. Certainly no one would be hurt if they spoke to a stranger and didn't get a response! (Again, not in my cultural surroundings that is. And I'm pretty sure of that. If it would make you feel better, I will take a facebook poll of my friends who live here and consider themselves city people.)
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Let me apologize now. I just got finished talking with my son's girlfriend and I've realized that I don't like the way I've responded.
I think I'm just getting frustrated. I feel like your insistence that I should not respond somewhat offensive because it seems to indirectly insinuate that a woman who does respond as I do, and even may enjoy the appreciation, that I then "deserve" what I might get. I don't at all think that you would think such a monstrous thing, but I realize that is the root of my frustration. I would respond with a smile and a thank you, I would not break stride, however. And I'm not changing.
It's also frustrating to not be heard what I'm saying about behaving with confidence, which is what helps me feel safe in my world.
My son's girlfriend was telling me similar stories that I've heard here. People grabbing her, following her, and it's awful.
I do think that to not respond to a simple hello is rude. However, men should know that if a woman does ignore that, it is most likely due to the predatory and disrespectful behavior of other men.
So, you respond as you do, and I respond as I would, and there should be no judgement on either end.
It's the "not respond = rude" part that's problematic-- for the exact same reasons that you dislike it when others try to change your habit of responding with confidence.
The point in both cases is not to be controlled by fear, but also not to be controlled by another person's behavior. We should not feel bound to either respond or not respond by the actions of a stranger. Different people will respond differently in that situation for a variety of reasons-- temperament, cultural background, past experiences, prior presuppositions. They should be free to do so without being labeled either "foolish" or "rude".
But then, if the point is not to be controlled by other's, that means we don't need to be terribly worried about how others' interpret our response or lack thereof.
And my problem is that this discussion is where I am free to express my true feelings and impressions regarding different experiences in my life. It's not indicative of my relationship with my friend or my interactions with her. To me, it does come across as rude. Though, I admit, that knowing the probable cause of her response and knowing the complexities of the situation, "rude" isn't the perfect word. But I'm not sure what word would be better suited to how I view her response that takes into consideration all those other factors. Also, please understand that I know her. Like, I said before, she has a similar response to other things in her life. I love her, though, I have had reason to dismiss our friendship because of her manner. I almost did.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.
I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Jade,
Do you have any evidence that responding briefly to an unwanted approach is more likely to get you raped and murdered than ignoring it? If your analysis is right, I would have thought that ignoring the bloke would be more likely to annoy him and thus increase the chances of violence.
Er, I know people who have been killed because they responded to someone who was harassing them. Is that evidence enough?
Some men want women to be a passive recipient of their abuse and don't like it when women answer back.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Ridiculous. I'm not policing anything.
You are making some very rude comments about your friend's behaviour that perpetuate the idea that women are public property and that rudeness is worse than women's safety. Fear is a TOTALLY VALID reason to ignore someone. It is not rude. It is hardwired into us. There is no 'should' about how your friend should feel, please let her have ownership over her own emotions and not try to change her so sh
e is more socially acceptable.
You have absolutely no idea who my friend is, what she is like or how my relationship is with her.
I can get a good enough idea from your posts and that you think a woman protecting her safety is rude.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
<snip> It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.
I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered
Given your recent complaints about people who presume all other people (as opposed to ninety-x percent of them) to be heterosexual, you might like to cut out the blanket judgements on the states of men's minds.
You may need to brush up on your reading comprehension - I was talking about the men who harass women on the street, not all men ever. Heterosexism is rather different to knowing that rape culture means the men who harass women in the street view women as public property. Oh and by the way, only 10% of people are 100% heterosexual, 10% are 100% homosexual and the rest are somewhere else on the sexuality spectrum. Splitting the population into just hetero- and homosexuality is deeply inaccurate and overly binary.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That is definitely something to get straight-- men who harass women in the street are a minority. The problem is, even though they are in the minority, there is still a lot of them out there-- enough to make it a routine problem for some women.
That's why I took the time way back at the beginning of the thread to address the disbelief that most men might feel at hearing these stories-- they just simply don't act that way, and can't imagine why someone would. So, geez, maybe it's all just a big misunderstanding.
No. It's not. We don't want decent men to take on guilt they haven't earned, we are just hoping to add your eyes to the problem. Because there is one.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Fair enough, Kelly. I've tended to listen to my wife on this, who has sailed around London for the last 40 years (on foot), apparently unharassed. But maybe she is the exception.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Is the problem not more to do with the nature of fear, rather than the discernment of what does or does not count as 'harassment'?
Fear is something I understand . If I'm out somewhere and see a lone male or group of people, (who appear a potential threat), it will make me afraid . I would probably avoid engaging in any conversation with them even if invited .
It hard for me to put myself in the modern female's shoes and think that some might feel the same kind of fear when passing me on a path , regardless of whether I say hello or not .
It's a great shame that we have arrived at this state of affairs . Whilst it's tempting to hark back to a golden age where things weren't this way, it is nevertheless difficult to see how the problem of fear in these matters can be redressed.
PS. I agree with what's said up-thread about the male not having the right to demand politeness from a female , just so that his ego is boosted.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Whilst it's tempting to hark back to a golden age where things weren't this way...
When was that?
my mom has horrible stories about getting pawed in the public pool by a group of her male friends-- friends!-- who surrounded her and didn't let her get past. 1950's. My grandmother told about getting groped as a waitress. 1930's. She told me stories about her mother getting followed on the way home from locking up the family bakery at night.Sometime after 1920.
In fact, that's a great little oral history project-- ask the older women in your family to tell you stories about when they had to fend off street harassment.
I think the only thing that has changed is that the internet era has created venues for women to tell these stories without being hushed or interrupted.
[ 22. January 2014, 19:11: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
<snip> It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.
I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered
Given your recent complaints about people who presume all other people (as opposed to ninety-x percent of them) to be heterosexual, you might like to cut out the blanket judgements on the states of men's minds.
You may need to brush up on your reading comprehension - I was talking about the men who harass women on the street, not all men ever. Heterosexism is rather different to knowing that rape culture means the men who harass women in the street view women as public property. Oh and by the way, only 10% of people are 100% heterosexual, 10% are 100% homosexual and the rest are somewhere else on the sexuality spectrum. Splitting the population into just hetero- and homosexuality is deeply inaccurate and overly binary.
What charming figures, how conveniently symmetrical! How about you put some error bars on those?
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
I hear the sound of Dead Horse hooves. Please take discussions of homosexuality thence.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Back some time at the turn of the 19th/20th centuries, my grandmother was followed across Dartford Heath. I don't know any details, or how she dealt with it. And then, at the turn of the 60s/70s, the same thing happened to me. Definitely up to no good, as he hid in the shrubbery when some dog walkers passed me going towards him. Fortunately, that gave me enough time to get well ahead and out of his way, so I didn't have to use Plan A, not available to my Granny, of going down and walking along the bypass.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Whilst it's tempting to hark back to a golden age where things weren't this way...
When was that?
Point taken , the golden age that never was .
I've heard enough stories to realise that there was no shortage of wierdos and dirty old men in 1960s London . Also my grandmother was attacked in Edwardian London and suffered recurring nightmares until the end of her days .
Despite this many women did *feel* safe
walking alone until relatively recently . I guess the Yorkshire murders in the 70s, and other horrid crimes that came to light in the 80s, did a lot of damage to confidence .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I actually think there were stricter limits about street communication in times past-- you (male) basically didn't do anything more than tip your hat at a woman you didn't know, and never mind her response. You talked to women after a trusted third party introduced you.
A guy who shouted at women on the street was a rake, and women who shouted back were unhinged at best.If anything, things are much more relaxed nowadays.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
While they may be relaxed, there is still a huge range in cultural expectations and personal experiences / preferences.
I would never feel comfortable asking a stranger on the street "How are you doing?" unless there was some obvious reason why they might need assistance. That's too personal, and appears to demand a response.
When I'm out jogging in the park, or early in the morning in the dark when people are scarce, I'll usually nod, smile, and/or mutter "Good morning" as I pass the occasional other human out of a spirit of camaraderie. Sometimes they respond, sometimes not. That's fine either way - it doesn't require an answer. But then, to borrow Augustine's phrase, as a bearded man of a certain age, especially one wrapped in Spandex, I'm well aware that many women (and some men) will already have their shields activated, regardless of how friendly and unthreatening I consider myself. It is unfortunate that people react that way out of fear, but given the circumstances I understand it, and I don't take it personally.
On a normal street during the day with lots of people we don't have that camaraderie, so I'd be considered even more suspect if I greeted every stranger that way. And if I were far enough away that I had to raise my voice to attract the attention of one or more women who I didn't know, doing so would automatically mark me as a rake / cad / disreputable person who not only deserved to be ignored, but quite possibly to be actively avoided, regardless of how innocuous my comments might appear.
Sure, there are other environments where behavioral norms are different, and not everyone shares my sense of acceptable or unacceptable behavior. But personally I have no patience for harassment of women (or any other group for that matter) regardless of how men try to justify it.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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the Pookah
Shipmate
# 9186
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Posted
I grew up in New York City, then moved to a small town in Ireland and now live in a small university town in the US South. One point I'd like to make is that in small towns a harasser is obvious and either social pressure will stop 'Jim' from annoying women or the cops will.
Being a young girl in NYC was hell, delivery men, construction workers, random strangers all felt that they could proposition a 13 year old and make sexual comments. I've been felt up in the subway, leered at by a neighbor in the elevator 'I can see you're growing into a young woman..', groped on the Lido in Venice, and had the unwanted attentions of faculty in college. I'm a Victorian-looking attractive female and only since I've come out as a lesbian in this small town have I been able to enjoy dressing up and going out without the fear of being harassed or 'asking for it.' It's rather a sad comment to make & yes I have great male friends and a loving father. I've taken a RAD self-defense course and urge other women to,sadly they won't.
Posts: 926 | From: the Northern colonies | Registered: Mar 2005
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.
I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered
Jade,
Do you have any evidence that responding briefly to an unwanted approach is more likely to get you raped and murdered than ignoring it? If your analysis is right, I would have thought that ignoring the bloke would be more likely to annoy him and thus increase the chances of violence.
Er, I know people who have been killed because they responded to someone who was harassing them. Is that evidence enough?
Some men want women to be a passive recipient of their abuse and don't like it when women answer back.
Frankly, no, your unsupported assertion is not enough evidence to persuade me that I have been unwittingly putting myself in unnecessary danger for the last 20+ years and should change my behaviour.
Are you really saying that you knew at least 2 women who have been killed as a result of responding to a stranger on the street? And that it is clear that they would not have been killed if they had not responded?
To me that is the sort of extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence; can you provide links to press reports or something?
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Jade: quote:
Er, I know people who have been killed because they responded to someone who was harassing them. Is that evidence enough?
As JoannaP says, where's the evidence for this? And are you quite sure that they would not have been killed if they had refused to respond?
We all have to do whatever we are most comfortable with in such a situation (and personally I'd lean towards not responding until physically attacked) but this is getting close to blaming the victim for the crime. Some men see any response as encouragement to continue: others see non-response as a licence to escalate (hey, she didn't react - how far can I go with this?). You don't know which group the man harassing you falls into until you decide what to do, and by then it's too late to change your mind.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Jade: quote:
Er, I know people who have been killed because they responded to someone who was harassing them. Is that evidence enough?
As JoannaP says, where's the evidence for this? And are you quite sure that they would not have been killed if they had refused to respond?
We all have to do whatever we are most comfortable with in such a situation (and personally I'd lean towards not responding until physically attacked) but this is getting close to blaming the victim for the crime. Some men see any response as encouragement to continue: others see non-response as a licence to escalate (hey, she didn't react - how far can I go with this?). You don't know which group the man harassing you falls into until you decide what to do, and by then it's too late to change your mind.
TANGENT ALERT
Sadly this isn't the first occasion that Jade has made an statement where, on asked, she has failed to provide the evidence requested. [I've asked her to do the same with a wild accusation of Christians persecuting others, on a prayer thread]. In both instances it has been accompanied by what seems to have become a modus operandi of referencing everything to certain dead horse issues. TANGENT OFF
I was a teenager at school in Cambridge in the 1970's. In the middle of that decade a serial attacker of women became known as the Cambridge rapist. Simply travelling around Cambridge after dark meant you stopped and questioned as a potential suspect: since I was at school in the city, had lots of after school things to do and lived 15 miles away, I was often stopped.
It wasn't a nice feeling being questioned in a Police Station but even in my naivety (never having had a girlfriend and at an all boys' school) I was aware that leery behaviour just wasn't right. It was a small step from leery to physical stuff. Working in jobs with (mostly) women employees I heard stories at first hand of unwarranted attention that made me very aware of my own attitudes and behaviour.
[ 23. January 2014, 20:43: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
What is acceptable though? A smile - I find it hard not to if someone catches my eye like the shop assistant did today. Is that unwelcome - I'm no oil painting but does that make it any difference if I looked like the latest hunk of choice?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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the Pookah
Shipmate
# 9186
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Posted
EM; the female shop assistant is required by her job to be friendly. So leave her alone unless she wants to initiate. Also for general behavior, being friendly in a small town is fine, in a big city not.
Now as to street behavior I took out my RAD manual (here is their website they have courses in the US and UK for about $25 R.A.D Self Defense
quote:
Any successful predator has the ability to quickly screen potential victims, focusing in on the ones who look as if they will make good victims. WHen invisibility fails, we need to be "deselected" as a victim. Appear alert, uninviting , self confident, strong and decisive. quote:
Also: quote:
Disengage early: Create distance, observe every direction, dismiss his attempt at conversation
quote:
So that's the experts' answer. Am I the only woman here who has taken a self-defense course?
Posts: 926 | From: the Northern colonies | Registered: Mar 2005
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
What is acceptable though? A smile - I find it hard not to if someone catches my eye like the shop assistant did today. Is that unwelcome - I'm no oil painting but does that make it any difference if I looked like the latest hunk of choice?
A smile is a smile. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Exactly, you smile, someone smiles back.
Unless you are in East Palo Alto, in which case some gangbanger girl might snarl, "WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT?" But those girls are as much in the minority as "prowlers."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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the Pookah
Shipmate
# 9186
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Posted
Yes and unlike Fool on the Hill, the FBI (Cohen, 1999) reports that 1 in 3 women in the US can expect to be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. The course I took was given for free by the local police and the uni, desperate to lessen date rape and similar incidents. The 2 male policemen were wonderful and very caring, their biggest problem is the denial that women live in.
Posts: 926 | From: the Northern colonies | Registered: Mar 2005
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
Yes and unlike Fool on the Hill, the FBI (Cohen, 1999) reports that 1 in 3 women in the US can expect to be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. The course I took was given for free by the local police and the uni, desperate to lessen date rape and similar incidents. The 2 male policemen were wonderful and very caring, their biggest problem is the denial that women live in.
You know virtually nothing about me.
Yes, I live in denial because I smile at people.
I'm glad I'm not you.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I agree, that was unwarranted.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Exactly, you smile, someone smiles back.
Unless you are in East Palo Alto, in which case some gangbanger girl might snarl, "WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT?" But those girls are as much in the minority as "prowlers."
I was in the bathroom once, in a mall. Suburbs. Upscale mall. A girl was bawling her eyes out in the stall next to me. Bawling. I said, "Are you alright?" She yelled at me. She said how dare I talk to her, I didn't even know her, she said. She actually scared me. I said, "sorry" and left.
If it ever happens again, and I hear someone crying, I will ask them if they are alright.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
My point was just,"You are not going to run into a ot of people who will get angry at a smile."
I figure the same goes for people weeping in public getting mad at being asked if they are OK.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
Yes.
Once I was in an after hours bar, in a very seedy neighborhood, some guy came up to me and sat down opposite me. He didn't say anything. I said, "what the hell are you doing?" And he said, "I'm seeing what color your eyes are."
Creeper.
I married him.
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
EM; the female shop assistant is required by her job to be friendly. So leave her alone unless she wants to initiate. Also for general behavior, being friendly in a small town is fine, in a big city not.
Let me clarify - by "catch my eye" I didn't mean "look at because I found attractive or whatever" - I meant "in conversation looked at me and genuinely it seems, not to keep to a training manual script, smiled and had a pleasant word to say about the grandchild I had with me."
I don't, repeat don't, glare, stare or whatever at strangers but if I'm with people I know, I smile. Other people seem to notice.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
Also for general behavior, being friendly in a small town is fine, in a big city not.
2. So that's the experts' answer. Am I the only woman here who has taken a self-defense course?
1. Tbh in the UK I've lived in both and notice little difference. It makes a big difference I agree if people perceive you as "safe" - with a grandchild and in my case - perhaps with white hair looking older than I really am.
2. I'm sure that you aren't. Is it the case that you go around expecting leery behaviour from others?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
My point was just,"You are not going to run into a ot of people who will get angry at a smile."
Agreed. Mrs EM and I were eating out at a eat all you can buffet place last week. A young couple obviously on 1st date near us asked us to keep an eye on their stuff while they got food. We had never seen them before. We smile at each other (more than usual that day as she had been away with daughter EM for 17 days) and it seems to make others happy too.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
Disengage early: Create distance, observe every direction, dismiss his attempt at conversation
The Pookah, do they define "dismiss"? To me, calling out "Fine thanks" over my shoulder while walking on is more dismissive than ignoring the man.
quote:
the FBI (Cohen, 1999) reports that 1 in 3 women in the US can expect to be sexually assaulted in their lifetime
How was "sexually assaulted" defined for that study? And what exactly does "can expect to be" mean? Is it the same as "will be" or does it mean "will get into a situation where they think they will be"?
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Lilac
Shipmate
# 17979
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Posted
Think about hitting out with your elbow, which once worked for me. Obviously you never want things to reach this stage, but as an idea I find it helps with the confidence issue.
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Seeking...
Posts: 62 | From: Birmingham / Coventry Area, UK | Registered: Jan 2014
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
You elbowed someone for saying hello to you? Or were they being leery or abusive too?
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I did a course at college - it was all judo based and obviously predicated on the attacker having got very close. I left less confident than I started because everytime I did the moves, I was throwing someone who was expecting it.
I found my Dad's instructions easier to remember. Knee to groin, heel down shin, stamp on instep and run like the blazes. Never had to do any of it.
Advice on how not to get that close would have been more useful.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Pine Marten
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# 11068
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Posted
A couple of comments: I was hurrying to my childminder's once, late (and I knew she would moan), and with a sore on my heel, so not in the best mood. I was harrassed by an idiot who followed me and mouthed obscenities in my face, so losing my temper I grabbed his crotch and snarled, 'You want some of this, then?!' or words to that effect, and legged it down the street.
I was also shocked when, wheeling my firstborn in her pram, I was subjected to gross comments (let us say: along the lines of did I want to get pregnant again) by lorry drivers. My friend, when pregnant, was subjected to yells of 'fat pregnant bitch!' while crossing the road.
I'm glad I'm now old enough to be generally invisible to all and sundry, though it still happens now and again. I often thought of taking self defence lessons.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
You elbowed someone for saying hello to you? Or were they being leery or abusive too?
Which scenario makes more sense?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Alicïa
Shipmate
# 7668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
So that's the experts' answer. Am I the only woman here who has taken a self-defense course?
I haven't done that particular self-defence course, but I have done self defence courses and I definately agree with you that more women should take them.
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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness
Posts: 884 | From: Where the Art is. | Registered: Jun 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I have taken the odd self-defense workshop, and I fenced for two years, which gave me a sense of asserting my- chi, i guess you could say.
I hate to say it, but this leg of the conversation is reminding me of Sandra Bullock's "SING" routine from Miss Congeniality.. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lilac
Shipmate
# 17979
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
You elbowed someone for saying hello to you? Or were they being leery or abusive too?
I don't know exactly what he intended, but it was scary and I was too busy running away to inquire further.
My dad used to be an amateur boxer, and he advised me to start skipping. Boxers do alot of skipping to develop the agility they need to dodge attacks. Plus since the aforementioned incident I always wear shoes suitable for running away in
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Seeking...
Posts: 62 | From: Birmingham / Coventry Area, UK | Registered: Jan 2014
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the Pookah
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# 9186
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Posted
Penny,Lilac,Alicia,Pine Marten;I'm glad to hear that other women are protecting themselves. The RAD course is very pragmatic, mostly teaching you how to avoid being profiled, to be vigilant, to run away, listen to your intuition, and finally knee to groin, nose-smashing, eyeball jabbing techniques.
The police were very keen, if someone gives you the creeps, listen to your intuition and leave. Women are far too polite.
I don't know about the FBI stats, do check, I know I'm one of the 1 in 3 as I escaped an attempted rape in college by a drunken football player, and then later in '98 A drunken man was striking and assaulting women mid-afternoon on 5th avenue and he hit me. I ran and got the police who had him carted away.
That's truly dreadful that pregnant women would be the target of such behavior. Today I'm much stronger and if I see such rude behavior I call that person out publically shaming them.
Posts: 926 | From: the Northern colonies | Registered: Mar 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Working in jobs with (mostly) women employees I heard stories at first hand of unwarranted attention that made me very aware of my own attitudes and behaviour.
Reading this thread, and ones like it, is having the same effect on me .
In 60s there was a song that went "Watching all the girls go by" . A perfectly legitimate activity then . It was encouraged , as was even bottom smacking in the old 'Carry on' films and similar of that ilk .
What's that other song in my head ? Oh yes , 'Times they are a changed'.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Pine Marten
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# 11068
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Posted
It's interesting how instinct takes over. I once did a bit of Tai Chi, and while walking one evening to a church meeting I came up against, not an idiot harasser, but an idiot cyclist who tried to run into me on the pavement. I shot my arm up to block him and knocked him nearly off his bike. He started after me, but fortunately his mates were there to stop him, as were some people from the mosque on the corner, so I swiftly got away and ran down to church!
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Working in jobs with (mostly) women employees I heard stories at first hand of unwarranted attention that made me very aware of my own attitudes and behaviour.
Reading this thread, and ones like it, is having the same effect on me .
In 60s there was a song that went "Watching all the girls go by" . A perfectly legitimate activity then . It was encouraged , as was even bottom smacking in the old 'Carry on' films and similar of that ilk .
ExclamationMark, I can't stress enough how strng an impact your decision to internalize your female friend's stories can have.
It is kind of discouraging, however, that after reading story after story posted here of the kind of harassment Ship women have been subject to, there is still among some a tendency to place "watching girls go by" on the same level of intrusiveness as "smacking bottoms." Put more bluntly, we just heard a woman say she was offered stud services when she was pregnant, and we are still hearing hints of, "Can't a guy look?" Disappointing.
I'm reading back, and at least on this thread, except for Fool on the Hill's mild story about meeting her husband, I see nobody complaining about simply getting looked at.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Working in jobs with (mostly) women employees I heard stories at first hand of unwarranted attention that made me very aware of my own attitudes and behaviour.
Reading this thread, and ones like it, is having the same effect on me .
In 60s there was a song that went "Watching all the girls go by" . A perfectly legitimate activity then . It was encouraged , as was even bottom smacking in the old 'Carry on' films and similar of that ilk .
ExclamationMark, I can't stress enough how strng an impact your decision to internalize your female friend's stories can have.
It is kind of discouraging, however, that after reading story after story posted here of the kind of harassment Ship women have been subject to, there is still among some a tendency to place "watching girls go by" on the same level of intrusiveness as "smacking bottoms." Put more bluntly, we just heard a woman say she was offered stud services when she was pregnant, and we are still hearing hints of, "Can't a guy look?" Disappointing.
I'm reading back, and at least on this thread, except for Fool on the Hill's mild story about meeting her husband, I see nobody complaining about simply getting looked at.
Lol I wasn't complaining! He did sit inches from me and literally stare into my face. Definitely a creeper. I should have elbowed him.
But, yea, I mean, there is a huge variety of experiences and responses here. I do think location is huge. I remember in Limerick, Ireland, I didn't feel safe, though I did in Galway. I feel safer in NYC than some parts of Philadelphia. I might feel safer with a "good evening" than I would with a blatant up and down look. It depends on so many things.
I guess my main point is
being appreciated for your looks doesn't have to be a bad thing.
There's a difference (in tone and body language) in being appreciated and being invited into an interaction.
Confidence is the most important thing. That may mean walking by and ignoring or it may mean giving a polite response.
I personally don't want negative experiences to impact how I generally interact with people.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Lol I wasn't complaining!
That was my point!
It seems like all anybody is really saying is that 1. Guys can pretty much address women any way they want, within reason, as long as they sort of let go their expectations about how they expect her to respond and 2. Women should be allowed to consult their instincts first and other people's opinions second when deciding how to respond.
The introduction of things like "Did you hit him because he smiled at you?" and "It used to be okay to look" feels like reductio ad absurdum.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I personally don't want negative experiences to impact how I generally interact with people.
A few days ago, I just finished taking pics and was collapsing my tripod when a very large, powerfully-built man approached. The spot was screened from view by foliage and there were few people about the general area even to be heard by.
He greeted me and we spoke about the view, the weather and some rather strange theories he espoused. I never had the feeling he was attempting to chat me up or threaten me in any manner. He simply wished to share the view and a bit of convo. I never felt other than relaxed and calm in his presence, felt no threat. Yet, after he left, I noticed I had never set down the tripod nor let it be in a position where it could not be employed.
So, yes, one should not be ruled by past experiences, but neither does it mean rescinding all caution.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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