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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Street harassment of women
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
How does being confident or acting confident prevent something like that happening?
I would say that it's certainly not surefire. I think I have made some people decide to move off by looking them in in the eye, being aware and unintimidated, but that definitely includes selection bias as I will never know what their original plans were. And certainly there are people who just don't care who aren't a bit affected by one's confidence or lack there of. That old man sounds either like someone who just didn't give a shit or someone who wasn't quite living in the real world. Either way, I doubt he was reacting to anything in your attitude. (Sympathies, by the way. That would beeally intrusive and insulting, but too startling to be easy to react to and who wants to hurt an old man anyway.)
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
I may be overreacting but, in light of this thread, I find it, um, interesting that, when seekingsister posts in Heaven that she is made uncomfortable by a colleague who does not follow the usual rules of social behaviour, she is told to suck it up and that she should not do anything to make him feel uncomfortable.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that people who tell her not to make him feel uncomfortable are implying that she's harassing him? Or that if he were female people would be saying different things? Because I don't really see why street behavior between people who don't know each other needs to match that of two colleagues who are not in private (thus safer) and work together.
No, it is more the fact that she has stated that his behaviour makes her feel uncomfortable (which makes sense to me, as I would feel uncomfortable in that situation) but some responses have ignored her discomfort and said that she should not do anything that might make him feel uncomfortable. This seems to me to be saying that she should ignore her feelings and not do anything that should be construed as impolite, which directly contradicts some of the advice given on this thread. I know that the situation is very different, as it is in an office not on the street, but I am still not sure that that explains such contradictory advice on how to behave when made uncomfortable by a man who does not behave appropriately.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
I feel we are somewhat conflating threads. However, to briefly respond, I can only speak for myself but I can tell you that my response had nothing to do with gender and more to do with the fact that I don't assume his behavior is rude. I gather many do, and that assumption would certainly change how one might expect her to act. Also, I do think place (office vs. street) is much more relevant to the differences than gender. If one decides to make him a bit uncomfortable to try to teach him normal interaction, one is riskng professional relationships (if only a little, perhaps) to try to gain an improved office situation. If one decides not to push it, one is giving up personal comfort to forgo risk or because one thinks pushing relationships in the office is unprofessional.* None of those issues relate to my thinking if someone tries to speak to me on the street. There it's issues of how much I might like to get to know this person, how safe is it to do so, if I do want to, and how much society obliges me to be polite to him if I don't.
*Not saying that it is, but listing it as a possible reason.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And can everyone see how at least some of what ken is saying might apply to not stringing along some guy who is "on the pull"?
... because it cracks me up that we all agree we have the right to distance ourselves from someone who is trying for our cash, but there is still this doubt about what a woman should do when she suspects someone is trying for her pussy.
Sorry to be blunt, but do you see what I mean?
But are we still lumping together men who express appreciation for someone's looks with men who want to sexually assault us?
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
But are we still lumping together men who express appreciation for someone's looks with men who want to sexually assault us?
We've possibly been round this mulberry bush before, but the problem is that, in the experience of many women "hello gorgeous"* is not a friendly expression of disinterested appreciation, but at the least a demand on the woman's attention, and, potentially a prelude to an unsought and unwanted interaction, possibly escalating to harassment, or physical contact.
Like many, I have responded variously in various situations, from friendly/responsive to brisk to ignoring to hostile. Aggregating the totality of a lifetime's experience to date, cross-referenced with the experience of female friends and acquaintance, and taking into account the predominant social norms, I conclude that cautious/defensive is the most appropriate range to operate in.
YMMV.
*generic example
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
...an old man who was behind me in the queue put his arms round me and grabbed both my tits.
quote:
Originally posted by Lilac:
He must have been senile. But he had the advantage of surprise.
Are you trying to be offensive Lilac?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Are you trying to be offensive Lilac?
Are you trying to get personal mdijon? Don't (at least not on this board).
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
But are we still lumping together men who express appreciation for someone's looks with men who want to sexually assault us?
"We" are not lumping anyone anywhere. "I" am saying that we should not touch a woman's response to her own instincts in matters like this, even if ours are different.
That's pretty much it, end of.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lilac
Shipmate
# 17979
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
...an old man who was behind me in the queue put his arms round me and grabbed both my tits.
quote:
Originally posted by Lilac:
He must have been senile. But he had the advantage of surprise.
Are you trying to be offensive Lilac?
Are you an elderly man who creeps up behind young women and grabs their boobs?
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Seeking...
Posts: 62 | From: Birmingham / Coventry Area, UK | Registered: Jan 2014
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Lilac, what applies to mdijon applies to you. If you want to get personal, take it to Hell.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lilac
Shipmate
# 17979
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lilac:
Are you an elderly man who creeps up behind young women and grabs their boobs?
Sorry. It was meant as a rhetorical question.
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Seeking...
Posts: 62 | From: Birmingham / Coventry Area, UK | Registered: Jan 2014
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Rhetorical or otherwise, it was a direct violation of Commandment 3. You might like to re-check the 10 commandments, guidelines, and FAQs, because it will be assumed that you have.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lilac
Shipmate
# 17979
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Posted
Okay, I checked Commandment 3 again. How do I "take it to Hell"? This is an issue which prompts me to express myself in a forceful way.
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Seeking...
Posts: 62 | From: Birmingham / Coventry Area, UK | Registered: Jan 2014
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
ADMIN
If you wish a Host to clarify a ruling, you start a thread in the Styx. The topic of this thread is not "What did I do wrong?"
Stop this line of discussion now.
Kelly Alves
Admin
[ 01. February 2014, 20:53: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
But are we still lumping together men who express appreciation for someone's looks with men who want to sexually assault us?
"We" are not lumping anyone anywhere. "I" am saying that we should not touch a woman's response to her own instincts in matters like this, even if ours are different.
That's pretty much it, end of.
Nah, you said,
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And can everyone see how at least some of what ken is saying might apply to not stringing along some guy who is "on the pull"?
... because it cracks me up that we all agree we have the right to distance ourselves from someone who is trying for our cash, but there is still this doubt about what a woman should do when she suspects someone is trying for her pussy.
Sorry to be blunt, but do you see what I mean?
No one is expressing doubt of what a women should do if she feels the need to defend her pussy, (and for me, I don't know about anyone else, but that would mean aggressive body language, tone or language) only expressing doubt of what constitutes street harassment and what a woman should do when spoken to by a stranger.
Maybe you could give an example of who or what is an expression of doubt regarding warding off sexual attack in this thread?
Maybe you're not lumping together men who make comments and men who intend on sexual assault, but maybe you're lumping together women who do not feel threatened by some comments with women who don't have any personal sense of safety?
Either way, blunt, yes. And I, personally, didn't know what you meant.
We shouldn't touch, or judge, any response? None at all? What if a woman's instinct is to shoot someone she feels is acting suspiciously? Kind of like, "stand your ground", but just for women?
Last weekend, in NYC, in a bar, someone said to me, "you're the one", the message being quite clear that I was being admired. Should I have elbowed him? Hit him with my umbrella? Used martial arts?
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Alicďa
Shipmate
# 7668
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Posted
You seem to be expressing some real extremes here, Fool on the hill, I haven't seen anyone suggest that martial arts should be used on someone who makes what you would call an admiring comment.
In my own personal experience though, what starts as an admiring comment can very well lead to harassment and in my view because some men have a sense of entitlement that seems to have no limits. I don't think that body language necessarily always gives it away, sometimes but not always.
I would certainly not ever intend to tar all men with the same brush, nor would I expect all women to have had experiences of street harassment -- I am pleased for you that you have never had a bad experience of this kind but I think you are a bit dismissive of other womens real experiences here.
quote:
maybe you're lumping together women who do not feel threatened by some comments with women who don't have any personal sense of safety?
As you addressed this to Kelly I am sure she will also respond but it seems to me you are suggesting those of us who have had bad experiences with harassment have no sense of personal safety?
Tell me that isn't so.
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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness
Posts: 884 | From: Where the Art is. | Registered: Jun 2004
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alicďa:
You seem to be expressing some real extremes here, Fool on the hill, I haven't seen anyone suggest that martial arts should be used on someone who makes what you would call an admiring comment.
In my own personal experience though, what starts as an admiring comment can very well lead to harassment and in my view because some men have a sense of entitlement that seems to have no limits. I don't think that body language necessarily always gives it away, sometimes but not always.
I would certainly not ever intend to tar all men with the same brush, nor would I expect all women to have had experiences of street harassment -- I am pleased for you that you have never had a bad experience of this kind but I think you are a bit dismissive of other womens real experiences here.
quote:
maybe you're lumping together women who do not feel threatened by some comments with women who don't have any personal sense of safety?
As you addressed this to Kelly I am sure she will also respond but it seems to me you are suggesting those of us who have had bad experiences with harassment have no sense of personal safety?
Tell me that isn't so.
Goodness, no. I feel the opposite is being suggested. That women who don't ignore all street comments have no sense of personal safety.
And you're right, I am using exaggeration to make a point. At what point does a comment by a stranger become harassment? At what point should a woman feel threatened? It was suggested that no response by a woman should be judged. So, does that mean that I would be in the right to slap this guy for making a comment? My problem with this whole thread is that context is being pushed aside and blanket statements are being made.
You're right about body language not always giving sufficient warning. For all I know, this guy could have lunged at me a second later. But does that mean that any response on my part is beyond reproach?
Men being tarred by the same brush is exactly my problem here. Or one.
As for my experience with street harassment,I never said I never experienced it. At this point in my life,I seem to get attention similar to the scenario I posted above regularly, but I don't get street attention. I think that's because of my particular look, my age, and where I live and where I walk. I can't say it was the same when I was younger though. I remember remnants of some harassment but I can't recall details. I guess that means I was never really scared by any of it. So, yea, I guess I'm lucky. But it also depends on the definition of street harassment.
I do remember getting followed by a guy in San Francisco on the street who was making grunting noises. I was alone. I went inside a store I think, to get rid of him.
It's not about whether or not I experienced a certain level of harassment, it's about the definition of and whether any response is a justified response.
I don't mean to be dismissive. I've heard the stories, in real life too. Again, does that mean any response is justified?
And, I do feel that some posts seem to suggest a physical response to comments. But that may be because the context of the situation isn't fully explained.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Men being tarred by the same brush is exactly my problem here. Or one.
There has , at times, been a hint of --'all men are potential rapists/street harassers' on this thread .
I'm not condoning men making a nuisance of themselves, or intrusive behaviour in any way shape or form , whether it be to women or other men . However I do get a feeling that some of the problem here is different people's creep-ometers being on different settings.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
However I do get a feeling that some of the problem here is different people's creep-ometers being on different settings.
That is probably correct, and I am saying we need to respect that.
I feel I need to defend myself as a fairly friendly person.That is so bass ackwards I can't even; it is not my job to prove to the world I am nice. It is my job, however, to be aware of my surroundings and respond--QUICKLY-- to any sense I have that things are not right. In some cases that might mean politely excusing myself from a conversation, in some it might mean running the hell away. But I can't let other people's preference tell me what the best thing to do is in regards to my personal safety. End of.
I tell you what does set off a big red flag with me-- when I do set firm boundaries (I'm sorry, I'd rather not have another drink, I'm driving), and someone (insteads of respecting them) begins shutting them down. (Aw come on, I'm just trying to be friendly! What, do you Hate All Men?)
I'm sorry but if you are approaching a stranger, it is really more or less your job to let them know you are a safe person who doesn't have an agenda. You are the one initiating contact. You are not entitled to having them assume that you are safe without taking a moment to assess the situation, and you are certainly not entitled to expect them to reassure you.
When we hint that the process of assessing the situation is somehow wrong in and of itself(you are saying all people are ___!) we put people in danger-- so that really needs to be the priority.
[ 02. February 2014, 19:07: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Last weekend, in NYC, in a bar, someone said to me, "you're the one", the message being quite clear that I was being admired. Should I have elbowed him? Hit him with my umbrella? Used martial arts?
A bar, club or pub have different expectations to the street. People gather in them to be social and interaction from strangers, to a point, are expected.
Street comments, no matter how flattered one feels, are harassment. The power imbalance makes it more so, but it is regardless. Why? Much like why an unsolicited salesperson ringing you up is. It is an intrusion.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Street comments, no matter how flattered one feels, are harassment. The power imbalance makes it more so, but it is regardless. Why? Much like why an unsolicited salesperson ringing you up is. It is an intrusion. [/QB]
Point.
quote:
and I am saying we need to respect that.
Carte Blanche? Even if the creep--o-meter is swinging into paranoia? (Not saying yours is).
quote:
But I can't let other people's preference tell me what the best thing to do is in regards to my personal safety. End of.
No one is. I'm taking issue with your comment about defending pussy attacks.
quote:
When we hint that the process of assessing the situation is somehow wrong in and of itself(you are saying all people are ___!) we put people in danger-- so that really needs to be the priority.
No one said the process of assessing a situation is wrong in and of itself. I'm saying that some people's creep-o-meters are off.
I don't see how addressing what I feel is a blanket statement is putting anyone in danger.
I feel that discussing this could bridge understanding. Which I thought is the point.
quote:
Originally posted by Alicďa:
quote:
maybe you're lumping together women who do not feel threatened by some comments with women who don't have any personal sense of safety?
As you addressed this to Kelly I am sure she will also respond...
Evidently not. End of.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
quote:
But I can't let other people's preference tell me what the best thing to do is in regards to my personal safety. End of.
No one is. I'm taking issue with your comment about defending pussynattacks
It id incredibly frustrating to take the time to be specific when someone is going to reframe what you say into a blanket statement anyway. And add stuff you never said to that statement, to boot. I said When a woman gets the sense (specific, conditional) that someone is trying for her pussy.(plenty of people try for pussy without being attackers. You added that word. You. Pussy lovers everywhere certainly have the right to be offened by that word, but I didn't use it.)
What iam saying-again- is when we demand a woman apologize (in this case, meaning repeatedly justify)for acting on their qualms even in mild situation we weaken their ability to do so when things get intense. As was said above, the problem with women overreacting to comments seems less prevailent than the problem of women being afraid to detach from situations that make them uncomfortable.we totally need to reset that particular dial FIRST.
[umm, code]
[ 02. February 2014, 20:47: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
... the problem with women overreacting to comments seems less prevailent than the problem of women being afraid to detach from situations that make them uncomfortable.
Hear, hear!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alicďa
Shipmate
# 7668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Evidently not. End of.
Whooaa!
End of?
?
Who made you arbiter of time & thread?
More correctly I meant it is her choice to respond. Not sure where you are going with this though.
[ 02. February 2014, 20:46: Message edited by: Alicďa ]
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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness
Posts: 884 | From: Where the Art is. | Registered: Jun 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Well, to be a lot fairer to her than she is being to me,she is using a phrase I threw out, in reference to an idea I was stating. But again, it is frustrating to take the time to try to respond to someone, and just have them decided I didn't. If there was something lacking in the response I did give, I wish she'd had just said that, rather than acting like I said nothing.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alicďa:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Evidently not. End of.
Whooaa!
End of?
?
Who made you arbiter of time & thread?
More correctly I meant it is her choice to respond. Not sure where you are going with this though.
She said End of. I found that dismissive.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Well, to be a lot fairer to her than she is being to me,she is using a phrase I threw out, in reference to an idea I was stating. But again, it is frustrating to take the time to try to respond to someone, and just have them decided I didn't. If there was something lacking in the response I did give, I wish she'd had just said that, rather than acting like I said nothing.
I apologize.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
quote:
But I can't let other people's preference tell me what the best thing to do is in regards to my personal safety. End of.
No one is. I'm taking issue with your comment about defending pussynattacks
It id incredibly frustrating to take the time to be specific when someone is going to reframe what you say into a blanket statement anyway. And add stuff you never said to that statement, to boot. I said When a woman gets the sense (specific, conditional) that someone is trying for her pussy.(plenty of people try for pussy without being attackers. You added that word. You. Pussy lovers everywhere certainly have the right to be offened by that word, but I didn't use it.)
What iam saying-again- is when we demand a woman apologize (in this case, meaning repeatedly justify)for acting on their qualms even in mild situation we weaken their ability to do so when things get intense. As was said above, the problem with women overreacting to comments seems less prevailent than the problem of women being afraid to detach from situations that make them uncomfortable.we totally need to reset that particular dial FIRST.
[umm, code]
Well, "defend" seems to imply attack. But ok, fine.
My point, again, is that no one here is asking a woman to apologize for acting on their instincts. However it seems to me, that some women could use some balance in their creep-o-meters. Certainly not something to do a public service announcement on, but I think a relevant point to this discussion. As is yours.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
... the problem with women overreacting to comments seems less prevalent than the problem of women being afraid to detach from situations that make them uncomfortable.
Hear, hear!
I would agree that a woman lacking in the ability to detach in situations that require it can lead to much, much bigger problems than a woman overreacting. However, overreacting is a problem as well. And more important than overreacting is the tendency to paint men with a broad brush. Balance seems like a good idea.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
For the record, i was thinking of the word"defend" in terms of women having to "defend" what should be personal decisions to people in no way personally affected by her decision. That seems to be the biggest hurdle to overcome. Not what any guy says or does, but everbody else's evaluation of the situation.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
You know, this all seems like a failure to take in
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Oh, fuck it. Lost my edits, but probably for the best in this case.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
However, overreacting is a problem as well. And more important than overreacting is the tendency to paint men with a broad brush. Balance seems like a good idea.
See, the fact that you are reading comments about women being careful about dodgy behavior as being about all men is weird to me, because I assume most men-- the majority even-- would not apply such comments to themselves. Because most men have reasonable boundaries. But I also assume most men want the women in their lives to keep themselves safe. I don' t think they would want women to place themselves in uncomfortable situations-- even if the only consequence is squicky conversation- and therefore I am bold to talk solely about a woman trusting her instincts, because I trust most men would agree with me.
Let me put it to you guys-- if you were out at a pub with a mixed crowd, and one of your female friends said something like,"That guy is giving me weird vibes, I'm avoiding him, would you say, 'Be reasonable-- he's probably perfectly nice"
or would you step off and leave her to her decision?
I know how most of the guys I know would respond.
And it there is some woman who is "overreacting" to some perfectly nice guy, why force her to inflict this on him? Her backing off is a win-win situation, in my book. Let her sort out what is bugging her before she really offends him.
[ 03. February 2014, 00:07: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Well, to be a lot fairer to her than she is being to me,she is using a phrase I threw out, in reference to an idea I was stating. But again, it is frustrating to take the time to try to respond to someone, and just have them decided I didn't. If there was something lacking in the response I did give, I wish she'd had just said that, rather than acting like I said nothing.
I apologize.
I sincerely appreciate that.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
However, overreacting is a problem as well. And more important than overreacting is the tendency to paint men with a broad brush. Balance seems like a good idea.
See, the fact that you are reading comments about women being careful about dodgy behavior as being about all men is weird to me, because I assume most men-- the majority even-- would not apply such comments to themselves. Because most men have reasonable boundaries. But I also assume most men want the women in their lives to keep themselves safe. I don' t think they would want women to place themselves in uncomfortable situations-- even if the only consequence is squicky conversation- and therefore I am bold to talk solely about a woman trusting her instincts, because I trust most men would agree with me.
Let me put it to you guys-- if you were out at a pub with a mixed crowd, and one of your female friends said something like,"That guy is giving me weird vibes, I'm avoiding him, would you say, 'Be reasonable-- he's probably perfectly nice"
or would you step off and leave her to her decision?
I know how most of the guys I know would respond.
And it there is some woman who is "overreacting" to some perfectly nice guy, why force her to inflict this on him? Her backing off is a win-win situation, in my book. Let her sort out what is bugging her before she really offends him.
Hmmmm, ok, but I think that there is an element of men bashing that exists in our society. And I feel there are shades of that in this thread. On the surface at least. Perhaps you don't see it because you are not a basher of men.
Re: your scenario, most guys are obviously going to say to leave her to her decision. As I would, of course, if it were my friend.
See, this might be the misunderstanding here. Here, on this board, I can be free to muse on these things without actual repercussions. I would never force or encourage anyone to act differently in the situations you have described. It's not my place. Especially not in the moment. It could have unpleasant or disastrous results. But here, I can possibly delve a little deeper into people's differing motivations and responses. For understanding.
But it's bothersome to read (here and there thru-out the thread) what seems to be so much mistrust between the sexes.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
This is going to sound like a line, but most of my closest friends are male. I crew for a TV station- there's, like, one other woman there.
And, yeah, I come from a place where I am so used to dealing with men in an unguarded way that it makes me extra baffled when they don't respect my "no." And I am totally that chick who lets conversations go way further than they should, because I assume a friendly"no" should be enough. Sometimes it isn't. I am a sufferer of being too nice syndrome, and I guess have suffered enough from it that I really want to encourage women- particularly young ones- to be true to themselves first.
Maybe, in that sense, we need some examples of what consitutes safe behavior? What signsls to one that they can relax?
In the story of you and your husband, for instance, what I assumed was that his simple, no-bs answer lead to an increase of trust.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
<snip> I think that there is an element of men bashing that exists in our society. And I feel there are shades of that in this thread. On the surface at least. Perhaps you don't see it because you are not a basher of men.
I must not be a basher of men either, because I don't see or feel it on this thread. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) On the contrary, I note your extraordinary sensitivity to such issues, and your insistence on focusing on what you believe to be inappropriate reactions by women. I don't get it.
Experiences and situations vary so widely that I believe it's impossible to judge another woman's reaction wrt her sense of safety. Obviously your measure varies from mine.
While I'm here I'd like to address the "lumping together" thing. For me it comes down to the problem of there being only one metric for a woman: the acceptability of her appearance from the point of view of the male gaze. Immature/unsophisticated men may only have this one metric: "Would I fuck her or not?" Comments related to appearance can undergird the idea that this is the only meaningful metric of a woman's life.
That doesn't mean one has to respond ungraciously to a contextually-appropriate compliment. But it does mean that the aggregate of such compliments devalues the other ways in which a woman may measure her own life and find it meaningful. If all comments are directed about appearance, it sends the message that other metrics (such as character) are meaningless. That's a problem.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, it's a shame about the mistrust between the sexes; but unfortunately that's a result of solid, concrete bad behavior that a great many of us have experienced. We weren't born distrusting guys. If we distrust some of them (read: strangers on the street) now, we have damn good reason.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
And most of my friends are women in their 20's. Due to my work environment. I'm 48. That's my context.
It bothers me that at times, some of them, radiate fear. Radiate. Generally. Concerning the opposite sex. And it even affects their lives in ways I find not beneficial.
Re: meeting my husband. Haha, yes Kelly, I guess so. But I feel like something like that would freak out my friends. So a signal of safety would be very different for me than it would be for others. And I guess, I should confess, I'm a big flirt. And not much freaks me out. But that doesn't mean I don't have my safety in mind. At least now, at my age.
Leaf, the only reason I seem to be insisting is because I feel it's the missing element in the discussion. Or maybe its something I can't seem to be able to clearly communicate. And I guess the mistrust I see in my friends.
And yes, experiences and situations do vary widely. Impossible to evaluate unless its being done on a case by case basis. Which is why I tried to bring up my particular friend and one or two specific situations. But, yea, not going there again.
As for valuing appearances over more important things. Yes, you're right. Its a good point, certainly. However, compliments given casually are given for superficial reasons. But that doesn't mean that compliments can't be given for a persons job, or intellect or character. And it doesn't mean that people can't give superficial compliments.
My understanding is shifting somewhat here. You are (meaning you, in a somewhat general sense) making sense to me. But I would hope to also make a case for those that may be mired in mistrust between the sexes. As I said, my living context tells me that I would like to see some people relax a little.
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Well, it's a shame about the mistrust between the sexes; but unfortunately that's a result of solid, concrete bad behavior that a great many of us have experienced. We weren't born distrusting guys. If we distrust some of them (read: strangers on the street) now, we have damn good reason.
I'm sure you do, and that is almost entirely the fault of those that have behaved badly. I just feel like maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing to examine the reasons for the mistrust, and maybe adjust the view a little.
In some cases.
In theory.
Maybe.
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
And most of my friends are women in their 20's. Due to my work environment. I'm 48. That's my context.
It bothers me that at times, some of them, radiate fear. Radiate. Generally. Concerning the opposite sex. And it even affects their lives in ways I find not beneficial.
If they display fear, it's probably because they've been made to feel afraid. What do you think has made them feel afraid? Is it their responsibility to become less afraid, or society's reponsibility to tackle what made them afraid?
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Alicďa
Shipmate
# 7668
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Posted
I'm a bit confused Fool on the hill, because on the one hand you're saying that the younger women you know should radiate less fear, but on the other hand you seem to dismiss learning a martial art & self defence as something of a negative (your comment on "should I have used martial arts")
(when in fact it usually has the effect of increasing women's confidence and in doing so de-enabling fear)
Which is it?
Also: quote:
almost entirely the fault of those that have behaved badly
can you unpack this please?
Seems a little close to victim blaming to me, unless I am being hypersensitive?
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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness
Posts: 884 | From: Where the Art is. | Registered: Jun 2004
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Alicďa
Shipmate
# 7668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Men being tarred by the same brush is exactly my problem here. Or one.
There has , at times, been a hint of --'all men are potential rapists/street harassers' on this thread .
I haven't seen any of that can you please point out a specific example?
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I do get a feeling that some of the problem here is different people's creep-ometers being on different settings.
Possibly, although I would say that is human nature as different people have different experiences and it will tend influence their actions?
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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Earwig:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
And most of my friends are women in their 20's. Due to my work environment. I'm 48. That's my context.
It bothers me that at times, some of them, radiate fear. Radiate. Generally. Concerning the opposite sex. And it even affects their lives in ways I find not beneficial.
If they display fear, it's probably because they've been made to feel afraid. What do you think has made them feel afraid? Is it their responsibility to become less afraid, or society's reponsibility to tackle what made them afraid?
Even though its almost impossible to discuss this without talking about specifics, it seems I can't talk about what I think, or what I know, has made them afraid without getting serious flack for doing so. Anyway, it varies from person to person.
quote:
Is it their responsibility to become less afraid, or society's reponsibility to tackle what made them afraid?
Both. If their fear is invading how they live their lives, then of course, it's their responsibility as well.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alicďa:
I'm a bit confused Fool on the hill, because on the one hand you're saying that the younger women you know should radiate less fear, but on the other hand you seem to dismiss learning a martial art & self defence as something of a negative (your comment on "should I have used martial arts")
(when in fact it usually has the effect of increasing women's confidence and in doing so de-enabling fear)
Which is it?
Also: quote:
almost entirely the fault of those that have behaved badly
can you unpack this please?
Seems a little close to victim blaming to me, unless I am being hypersensitive?
I wasn't dismissing martial arts, I was making the point that women's responses are not carte blanche above reproach and can be exaggerated. I explain further in that post. At what point does a comment become harassment? At what point is a physical response necessary? Do women have any responsibility in filtering their responses, or is any response ok? (These are general musings)
For the general record, I am not "extraordinarily sensitive" or "insisting" on anything just because it seems I am called upon to explain myself.
It seems to me that any question that is brought up regarding a woman's role in the interaction between men and women needs to be either immediately qualified by something like, "not that I condone harassment", as if men need to upfront prove they are not harassers or is followed by questions as if women have carte blanche license in their responses.
quote:
Also: quote:
almost entirely the fault of those that have behaved badly
can you unpack this please?
Seems a little close to victim blaming to me, unless I am being hypersensitive?
I typed and back spaced several times that word "almost". I let it remain because we always have a responsibility to ourselves if we find that fear is dominating our lives in some way, shape or form.
I think this whole discussion is hypersensitive. Its a hypersensitive topic.
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
Of course she's saying something about the man! She wouldn't be feeling uncomfortable if he wasn't behaving a certain way that she finds disconcerting. I don't even know why you're bringing that up. It doesn't seem at all relevant to anything I've said.
In this thread. In this almost 300 post thread, you haven't seen anything that seems like men need to qualify their intentions if responding? Ok. Because I saw a man feel the need to defend a smile for crying out loud.
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
I didn't say men never feel the need to. Men and women both defend themselves when I don't think they should need to. I am saying that if I say that X is creeping me out, I would not assume that proved X a creepster and wouldn't expect anyone else to either. If I said that in real life, probably either I want my listener to please not leave me alone with X or I'm warning them to be careful around X. If someone ignored me when I meant #1, I'd consider them a bad friend, but if they ignored me when I meant #2, I'd consider it their right. In fact, at least one person dear to me has. Turned out I was totally right about him, but she's a healthy happy woman, so I guess she's doing just fine too.
And yes a woman (or man for that matter) who says that some guy is making them uncomfortable has identified something about the guy's behavior that creeps the speaker out. That doesn't mean it is the "creepy" guy's fault. For example, I think eye contact or lack there of has been brought up on this thread as a potentially creepy behavior depending on cultures. Someone who's accidentally creeping people out by making more eye contact than the dominant culture expects might be wisest to change their behavior, but they certainly aren't morally wrong, etc.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
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