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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Street harassment of women
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
And most of my friends are women in their 20's. Due to my work environment. I'm 48. That's my context.
It bothers me that at times, some of them, radiate fear. Radiate. Generally. Concerning the opposite sex. And it even affects their lives in ways I find not beneficial.
Fool on the hill,
Can you give an indication of what proportion of this fear is due to actual experience and how much is reacting to stories in the media? In this country, surveys show that fear of crime is rising while crime itself is falling and some people do seem to let the former restrict their lives unnecessarily, but then we all assess risk differently.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
And most of my friends are women in their 20's. Due to my work environment. I'm 48. That's my context.
It bothers me that at times, some of them, radiate fear. Radiate. Generally. Concerning the opposite sex. And it even affects their lives in ways I find not beneficial.
Fool on the hill,
Can you give an indication of what proportion of this fear is due to actual experience and how much is reacting to stories in the media? In this country, surveys show that fear of crime is rising while crime itself is falling and some people do seem to let the former restrict their lives unnecessarily, but then we all assess risk differently.
Not sure.
But yes!!
I think with most of the fear is due to stories, in the media and well meaning warnings and cautions. Some of it is based on experience.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Is it then age related? You, being that much older, have more life experience which has been on the whole positive, and therefore your risk assessment is calibrated accordingly.
Might they not, by the time they are your age, be equally relaxed? As they say - If youth knew; if age could. Some things you can only arrive at by experience.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Is it then age related? You, being that much older, have more life experience which has been on the whole positive, and therefore your risk assessment is calibrated accordingly.
Might they not, by the time they are your age, be equally relaxed? As they say - If youth knew; if age could. Some things you can only arrive at by experience.
Well, when I was their age, I was much more relaxed. I think today there is much more exposure via the Internet, tv etc.
But, sure, they'll learn, I hope, to relax a little.
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
You just said a woman deciding not to return a smile is implying something about the man himself. That is an unnecessary and unhelpful thing to say. Maybe he just reminds her of a nasty schoolteacher she used to have. Again, why force her to inflict that vibe of hers on him? It serves no one.
And I want to express frustration (again) that I made the effort to clarify that I assumed most men have healthy boundaries, but you seem to not return the favor and consider that most women have healthy boundaries, and when their creep-o-meter goes off it is for good reason.
You notice odd behavior among your workmates- fine. But your applying their behavior to blanket comments about women honing their instincts is just as bad as Paglia (
Or whoever) deciding all men ad potential rapists. Especially in light of some of the hair-raising stories some of the women on this theard have told.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
You just said a woman deciding not to return a smile is implying something about the man himself. That is an unnecessary and unhelpful thing to say. Maybe he just reminds her of a nasty schoolteacher she used to have. Again, why force her to inflict that vibe of hers on him? It serves no one.
And I want to express frustration (again) that I made the effort to clarify that I assumed most men have healthy boundaries, but you seem to not return the favor and consider that most women have healthy boundaries, and when their creep-o-meter goes off it is for good reason.
You notice odd behavior among your workmates- fine. But your applying their behavior to blanket comments about women honing their instincts is just as bad as Paglia (
Or whoever) deciding all men ad potential rapists. Especially in light of some of the hair-raising stories some of the women on this theard have told.
quote:
You just said a woman deciding not to return a smile is implying something about the man himself.
Omg, what are you talking about?
quote:
why force her to inflict that vibe of hers on him?
What vibe? Who force? What are you talking about?
Most men are not potential rapists or even harassers.
Most women have healthy boundaries.
Most women have good reason to have off-kilter creep-o-meters.
By definition of "most", some women don't have healthy boundaries and have wacky, way off kilter creep-o-meters who would slap a guy for daring to speak to her, and I'm not talking about my friends.
Can you quote my "blanket statements"?
quote:
Paglia (Or whoever) deciding all men ad potential rapists.
What are you talking about?
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Most men are not potential rapists or even harassers.
Most women have healthy boundaries.
Good enough for me.
Let me try to explain what I meant by "vibe" (this would be the third try.) If a woman has made some knee- jerk decision that some guy a creep,what does serve anyone-- including him-- to plant the idea in her head that she needs to override that and engage with him? It will probably turn out badly for him! Why does he need suffer the faked politeness of someone who isn't into him?
Again, the guys I know have too much pride and dignity to settle for such a situation.
[ahem, CODE!]
[ 04. February 2014, 04:58: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alicïa:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Men being tarred by the same brush is exactly my problem here. Or one.
There has , at times, been a hint of --'all men are potential rapists/street harassers' on this thread .
I haven't seen any of that can you please point out a specific example?
I cannot . Which is why I used the word 'hint' .
Nor would I want to trawl through many posts and dissect someone's sentences to try and prove a point, as it would look like I'm picking someone out which isn't helpful.
Seeing as how the debate has moved into an area which suggests many females are now generally fearful of men, then that in itself might imply that all men are seen as a potential threat in certain circumstances .
It would be more interesting to examine how this situation has been arrived at , and more importantly how it might be remedied.
Media scare stories have been implicated but I don't see that as the whole of the cause . Family breakdown and Western sexualisation have got to be in their as well.
Not wanting to paint too bleak a picture, it does nevertheless STM that the traditional manner in which male and female spontaneously relate to each other is fast changing . What used to be regarded as normal politeness can now be viewed with suspicion by both parties.
Therefore the problem of the street harassment of women ,(depending on how real it actually is), could be evidence of polarization, whereby introvert and extrovert is becoming more pronounced in the male behaviour .
Just a thought.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Most men are not potential rapists or even harassers.
Most women have healthy boundaries.
Good enough for me.
Let me try to explain what I meant by "vibe" (this would be the third try.) If a woman has made some knee- jerk decision that some guy a creep,what does serve anyone-- including him-- to plant the idea in her head that she needs to override that and engage with him? It will probably turn out badly for him! Why does he need suffer the faked politeness of someone who isn't into him?
Again, the guys I know have too much pride and dignity to settle for such a situation.
And I will say, one more time, that I would not actually tell anyone point blank in the moment to override anything.
But I have told friends that if they want to meet someone appropriate, they might want to consider relaxing a little and not being so defensive. What do you know? They even agreed.
[preview post is your friend]
[ 04. February 2014, 04:58: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Fair enough. Perhaps in that specific situation, it was appropriate advice.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Seeing as how the debate has moved into an area which suggests many females are now generally fearful of men, then that in itself might imply that all men are seen as a potential threat in certain circumstances .
Wow.
Because the last several posts say the exact opposite.
[code, Kelly!!!]
[ 04. February 2014, 04:59: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Therefore the problem of the street harassment of women ,(depending on how real it actually is), could be evidence of polarization, whereby introvert and extrovert is becoming more pronounced in the male behaviour .
Just a thought.
The part I put in bold I would consider unhelpful. It appears to imply most harassment is in the imagination of the harassed.
Harassment happens. How much is a difficult determination other than that it is too much.
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
But I have told friends that if they want to meet someone appropriate, they might want to consider relaxing a little and not being so defensive. What do you know? They even agreed.
In a club, pub, bar or party, perhaps. But not on the street.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
You nailed it, LB. If we can move from "most women are paranoid about harrasment" to"most women have a reasonable idea about what harrasment is," then we can have a discussion. I thought Fool on the Hill had granted that, but rolyn seems to prefer to believe that most women are inordinately afraid of men, despite the entire last page of discussion.
[ 03. February 2014, 23:44: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fool on the hill
Shipmate
# 9428
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Seeing as how the debate has moved into an area which suggests many females are now generally fearful of men, then that in itself might imply that all men are seen as a potential threat in certain circumstances .
Wow.
Because the last several posts say the exact opposite.
Many, some, most....relative terms
[guys, guys... please deal with your UBB code]
[ 04. February 2014, 05:00: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 792 | Registered: May 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
[Sorry, Euty-- freaking Ipad. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lilac
Shipmate
# 17979
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Posted
I've just been downloading PDFs from the Library Genesis Project (google for "libgen"). They have a good selection of fitness books. Also martial arts, though obviously these require more dedication to learn. The one on "Krav Maga for women" is a typical self-defence book, better than nothing...
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Seeking...
Posts: 62 | From: Birmingham / Coventry Area, UK | Registered: Jan 2014
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
You notice odd behavior among your workmates- fine. But your applying their behavior to blanket comments about women honing their instincts is just as bad as Paglia (
Or whoever) deciding all men ad potential rapists.
Susan Brownmiller, in "Against Our Will" says that all men are rapists (not just potential). I can't give the exact quote as I no longer have the book, nor am I defending her point of view, I just remember reading it.
I remember someone telling me that as you get older you become more invisible as far as being an object of street harassment goes, and fortunately I've found that this is what has happened for me as I would not have the confidence to defend myself as I had in the past, either verbally or physically.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
See, to me, victory in this matter would be if you don't have to become invisible to stop being a victim of harassment.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
See, to me, victory in this matter would be if you don't have to become invisible to stop being a victim of harassment.
I totally agree Kelly. It doesn't solve anything, merely avoids the problem.
One thing I remember being fascinated by was that I hurt my wrist a couple of times and had my arm in a sling for a few days and that increased the harassment. Not blokes talking to me in the street or showing concern, but sexual comments. I decided to ditch the sling when I was out and about.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Predators target the wounded.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) beyond fucked up.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Predators target the wounded.
Predators are opportunistic. The wounded are typically easier prey, but they will take whatever is not wary enough. In other words, over-confidence is also a weakness.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I think that some guys are just inclined to harass women, and they make up a variety of excuses to do so. "Walking victim" and "Overconfident" being two of them.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think that some guys are just inclined to harass women, and they make up a variety of excuses to do so.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
"Walking victim" and "Overconfident" being two of them.
Not my meaning, but I was less than complete in my statement.
I feel self-defense classes are terrific. I also think projecting strength is generally a good thing as well. However, thinking either of these makes one attack-proof is not good.
Overconfidence can lead to not paying proper mind to one's surroundings.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
This is true.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
I have never taken self defence classes but one night I threw a drunk who was harassing a friend and I to the ground. Probably the main reason he lost his balance was because he was so drunk, but at least it stopped him from hurting Annie who had just found out she was pregnant.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
At 8 years old, I threw and pinned an 11 year old boy. This was as far as my self-defense training had taken me, so there I lay, holding down a boy 8 stone bigger than I with absolutely no idea what to do with him after.
Fortunately his brother fetched their mum and I was safe.
So knowledge, practice and a complete plan of action....
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Fortunately he was too drunk to get up, but did splutter "Dykes, lesbians" in our wake. Obviously the only women who spurned the advances of such an attractive catch must be gay ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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