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Originally posted by Solly:

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I think Jesus would be fucking livid at foodbanks and with good reason. It is an absolute failing and a scandal that people are starving in a first-world country, and foodbanks exist because of that.

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20 years at Citizens Advice, Jade Constable, and I still haven't see any starving people. I see people in trouble and needing help - but starving - No. I don't see as many homeless people as there were in the early nineties either. I think food banks are great, and the people that donate food to them and the volunteers that help in them - and I am damned sure Jesus would too.
So what would you do? Do let us know.
The benefits/tax credits system in this country had got completely out of hand to the point that when I was doing legal aid work, some clients on benefits had too much money and weren't eligible. How ridiculous is that? And there was no incentive to work or increase hours even if you wanted to - which many people did.
Of course turning round the welfare system in this country is causing hardship - but it will eventually work and we are hopefully going to see more people standing on their own feet. In the meantime, shall we all do what we can to offer practical help to those in need?

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Have you never heard of Jack Monroe, for example?

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Originally posted by Anglican't:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Have you never heard of Jack Monroe, for example?

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I have, via Richard Littlejohn. I don't usually care for what he says, but I found this portrait of her very amusing.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Unless of course you approve of people in comas being declared fit for work?

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Here's one for you Solly.

shortened link for scroll lock purposes

Yep. Tory cuts and reforms are indeed killing people.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Unless of course you approve of people in comas being declared fit for work?

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You've made this claim a lot on this thread. Do you have any evidence (ideally from a reputable news source) to support it?

Or is it, in fact, one of the numerous urban myths about how absolutely evil the government/ATOS/etc. are that are being passed round by people who want to believe it's true because it suits their politics? It's starting to feel like if someone was hit by a car after leaving their ATOS interview the usual suspects would be saying ATOS had killed them.

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From Hansard 27th Feb 2014, Column 454-5:
I want to read out a letter that was recently received by one of my constituents:

“Dear Miss HOLT,

You are now approaching the end of the 1st Stage of your Intensive Job Focused Activity. We hope that all the activity or training intervention completed so far has not only supported you to achieve your aspirations but has moved you closer to the job market.

You will shortly enter the 2nd Stage of your Intensive Job Focused activity.

Sessions and Workshops may vary depending on the centre you attend.”

The letter was sent to my constituent Sheila Holt on 30 January. I am sad to have to inform the House that Sheila will not be able to attend the second stage of her intensive job-focused activity because she has been in a coma since December. Members of her family have repeatedly informed the DWP and Seetec that she is not well, but those organisations have continued to harass them.

[Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)]

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Will this do you as a source?

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Will this do you as a source?

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Yes, everybody knows that letters from constituents and comments by politicians in Parliament are invariably honest, true and unbiased.

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Yes, and having checked the facts the minister felt the need to apologise anyway because he would never doubt the honesty of an opposition member...

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Yes, and having checked the facts the minister felt the need to apologise anyway because he would never doubt the honesty of an opposition member...

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Yes, and having checked the facts the minister felt the need to apologise anyway because he would never doubt the honesty of an opposition member...

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You and I both know that ministers will apologise for almost anything whether they were to blame or not if it means averting a media shitstorm*. PR is far more important than the facts.

*= case in point: all those politicians apologising because it rained too much this winter.

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Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
This is a real person who is being spoken about. She lives in a real place. And she has a real family. I would hate for them to read this. Jussayin'

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Posted                          

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

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Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
This is a real person who is being spoken about. She lives in a real place. And she has a real family. I would hate for them to read this. Jussayin'

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I haven't said a word about her, I've been talking about the many and various people using her situation as a club with which to beat the government.

Perhaps this thread needs a new direction. Would those who are attacking the government like to propose an alternative set of policies for discussion?

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
When people are pronounced fit for work by the scumbags at ATOS ... Those who don't speak out are guilty by implication.

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Originally posted by Anglican't:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
When people are pronounced fit for work by the scumbags at ATOS ... Those who don't speak out are guilty by implication.

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Am I right in thinking that ATOS was appointed under the last (Labour) government? Was there a hue and cry by the bishops then? (Or by posters on this site?) If there wasn't, are they guilty?

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the WCA did not gather significant pace, nor widespread national news, until after it was aggressively pushed by the incoming Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition government in 2010/11

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Originally posted by Anglican't:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Have you never heard of Jack Monroe, for example?

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I have, via Richard Littlejohn. I don't usually care for what he says, but I found this portrait of her very amusing.

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Originally posted by L'organist:
There are bound to be a few cases of people being wrongly taken off benefits because of administrative foul-up because no system is perfect: that would hold good were 'the system' being run by ATOS, social services, or a Government of any hue, Tory or Labour. Administration is not the UK's finest art - there is evidence of that from every field.

But just because there are foul-ups doesn't take away from the fact that there are cases where once on benefits some people just stay there.

Its not just a case of them 'costing us money' - its bad for them because it reduces them to a life of dependency. Being dependent on benefits may have to be the reality for some but for those who are able to do some work, or for whom education or training in life skills jsut hasn't happened, a reassessment of their needs is essential.

I did some work with a project for children who'd either been thrown out of home or who'd left institutional care without the basic skills to live independently. It was frightening that some of these young people, aged 17-20, had fewer life skills than my own children had by the age of 10. One of the biggest problems we encountered with those thrown out of home was that many had no idea of how to look after themselves, or of the reality of adults getting up early and going to work. All these young people had had their own social worker yet none had ever been given practical lessons in the nuts-and-bolts of everyday life: shopping to a list, cooking, time management, laundry, etc, etc, etc.

As for Jack Monroe: she is not without qualifications, she left home (as she herself admits) at 18 thinking she knew everything, she had a good job with the Fire Service, she chose to become pregnant and carry on the pregnancy without exploring how having a baby would work with the job she had, etc,etc. If she were very young and not very bright that might all be reasonable-ish but she was in her 20s when she had her child, was more than capable of assessing what the situation was likely to be when she had the child, yet still went ahead. Whether or not it is fair for someone with a new baby to be expected to commute 30 miles to work is irrelevant, she should have properly thought things through.

Enough: there is only a certain amount of money to go around and the benefits system as it is means that those who need the most help don't get enough - yet there are some who don't need help but get it anyway. It needs reform (if that is possible) or else a radical re-think so that we target the precious resources we have to those most in need.

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Originally posted by L'organist:
You really can't go around calling an organisation, and by implication its entire workforce, 'scumbags'.

As for ATOS being a 'Tory tool' or friend: ATOS was first appointed to run health assessments for the DWP by the Labour government in 1998. Subsequently it has been given contracts by NHS Scotland and by the NHS in Wales.

Its IT services are spread throughout government - it was an ATOS subsidiary that was responsible for the mayhem caused when the UK Border Agencies computer system crashed a couple of years ago.

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Originally posted by Anglican't:
[In reply to Jade Constable's post at 12.07pm]

I don't, usually. I generally find him awful (and was cheering Will Self on when he took him down on radio). But he's very occasionally capable of lucid, humorous prose.

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Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
What do you do about people who live in an area that has become a brownfield, so that the job opportunities simply don't exist? Tories NEVER go to such places; they can't handle the idea that their policies may have caused the poverty, and are making that poverty worse (read: Margaret Thatcher or Steven Harper).

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by L'organist:
Horseman Bree

When its been near lunchtime and I've sees someone on the street with a sign saying 'hungry' (or whatever) I've gone to a sandwich shop and bought a sandwich, bottle of water and piece of fruit - but 9 times out of 10 its been refused and I got abused as well.

...

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Originally posted by L'organist:
The amount of the pensions bill can't be seen properly in relation to the rest of the DEP budget because there is no pensions pot.

NI contributions are meant to provide for pensions so logic would be that a proportion was ring-fenced for pensions/pensioner benefits. But there is no fund - anymore than the true cost of the NHS and DEP benefits is actually known as a proportion of contributions through NI.

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In any case, many pensioners get a very raw deal when you consider how much they've paid into the system - and that any extra they may get is assumed by the DWP to grow at 10% per annum when they calculate how much or how little they get through SERPS, etc.

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And I've paid for SERPS - but it will be abolished before I get it. Likewise I'll have over 50 contribution years to my name - but will get the same basic pension as a person who has never worked or paid NI. And I'm told to 'make provision for my old age - I have, its just that the provider (the Government) is using them to pay for the feckless.

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People don't need Lady Bountifuls to have hot meals with them, they need justice.

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The idea that pensioners are getting a 'raw deal' is preposterous. Wait and see how much those of us in our 40s will get when we retire in comparison.

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I didn't sneer at anyone. I merely pointed out where HB ends up.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by L'organist:
It is not preposterous: when you consider that most of today's pensioners - certainly the males - have been paying since the beginning of the NI system. They were working at a time when there were precious few workplace pension schemes, and the notion of affordable private pensions for the lower paid didn't exist.

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Child benefit as it is now didn't exist: Family Allowance was paid for the second (and subsequent) children. School finished at 15 (or younger), even with grants further education was beyond the means of many, and those born in 1939 or earlier did National Service.

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As for the 'fringe benefits' received by some pensioners: while the over 60s in London and other big cities get a good deal with subsidised local transport, for those in rural areas a bus pass is meaningless if there is no bus.

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Outside the capital we don't have free museums and the like - our 'local' museum charges £6 for concessions, the art gallery is £9. The local swimming pool is £4.95. By comparison if I lived in London the museums and galleries would be free and the swim £3.50 (Queen Mother pool, Victoria).

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Originally posted by Solly:

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I doubt if starving people would go to Citizens Advice. There are probably lots of other crisis situations where Citizens Advice wouldn't be much use.

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But you're not sure are you because you have never seen any starving people? Where are they all? Actually we are often the first port of call for just about any crisis situation.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The introduction of ATOS by Labour was indeed a scandal, but given that Labour were Conservatives in disguise by then it's not a huge surprise sadly.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Yep. Stop declaring people fit for work when they aren't.

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Don't stop people's benefits leaving them with fuck all to live on.

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Stop demonising the unemployed and low paid.

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Increase taxes on people who can actually afford them instead of taking money away from people who can't.

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Have more people tackling the massive tax avoidance problem than the much smaller benefit fraud issue instead of the other way round.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Anglican't:
I have, via Richard Littlejohn. I don't usually care for what he says, but I found this portrait of her very amusing.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

Bankers, CEOs and the like still have to go to work and earn their big salaries, and the ones who are rich enough to not have to work don't tend to take much out of the benefits pot to fund their lifestyles.

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Originally posted by chris stiles:
Oh, and kale used to be grown as cattle-feed - people (poor people) started to eat it during the last two world wars.

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Originally posted by Anglican't:
Isn't Littlejohn's point that today kale is a largely middle-class (or, rather, a particular kind of middle class) person's food, regardless of who might have eaten it in the past?

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You saw the charts Marvin; an "appreciable sum" doesn't go to people who "don't have to get out of bed" - the lion's share is actually in-work benefits and pensions.

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Moreover, if you "don't get out of bed" these days your benefit would be sanctioned away from you;

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God alone knows how L'Organist's relative gets away with it given some of the stories that come my way. It's exactly this "I'm paying a fortune in tax to support feckless lazy unemployed people who can't be arsed" crap that needs addressing, and it's exactly what I mean by "demonisation".

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Maybe if we tackled tax avoidance we'd not need to increase anyone's taxes, but if we can't I'd sooner see the money coming from people who can afford it than from people who can't.

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