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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The church has no choice but to act over poverty
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Where do you mean by 'elsewhere'? I hadn't even heard of kale until I moved to London.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Marv, you talk about "have the State pay for everything" as if claimants got everything they could possibly want, all paid for.
In reality, this only happens in Daily Heil-land. In the real world, they have to decide whether it's theirs or their kids' turns to eat today, and whether to pay for heating or cooking. Fuck knows why you'd envy someone for that.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
And...
[cheeky point]
quote:
quote:
Moreover, if you "don't get out of bed" these days your benefit would be sanctioned away from you;
Good. If I can't do it I don't see why anyone else should.
Presumably you're therefore in favour of the abolition of the monarchy and the seizure of all inherited wealth then?
[/cheeky point]
[ 04. March 2014, 13:46: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Where do you mean by 'elsewhere'? I hadn't even heard of kale until I moved to London.
Outside the south east? I grew up in a fairly working class area, and we used to eat lots of kale because it was easily available, seen as nutritious because it was green and cheaply available at the local market.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Ok. I never came across it while growing up in the Midlands.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And...
[cheeky point]
quote:
quote:
Moreover, if you "don't get out of bed" these days your benefit would be sanctioned away from you;
Good. If I can't do it I don't see why anyone else should.
Presumably you're therefore in favour of the abolition of the monarchy and the seizure of all inherited wealth then?
[/cheeky point]
I'd be against them receiving benefits, for sure.
I don't begrudge anybody a life of leisure so long as I'm not paying for it.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Well it was a cheeky point which I couldn't resist. But this "life of leisure" is a bit of a myth.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I would counter your cheeky point by asking why you'd want to sack the hardest-working public sector workers...? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I don't begrudge anybody a life of leisure so long as I'm not paying for it.
The Civil List doesn't count?
If you are going to go after those who have their snouts in a hypothetical trough, it makes sense to go for the biggest pigs first.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I would counter your cheeky point by asking why you'd want to sack the hardest-working public sector workers...?
I'd ask for evidence as to who these are.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I would counter your cheeky point by asking why you'd want to sack the hardest-working public sector workers...?
I'd ask for evidence as to who these are.
Here.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I would counter your cheeky point by asking why you'd want to sack the hardest-working public sector workers...?
I'd ask for evidence as to who these are.
Here.
You need a lot more than a link with no comparisons to anyone else in the public service to prove your point.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
There are bound to be a few cases of people being wrongly taken off benefits [...]
Just a few cases? Really? Policy Exchange wrote (emphasis added):
"With some 874,000 adverse decisions being made between October 2012 and September 2013, and over 146,000 of them being successfully appealed or reconsidered it is clear that possibility of wrongly applied sanctions, and what their effects might be, is an important one." (source, select 'download report', p. 10)
Isn’t 146,000 more than 'a few'?
Does it worry you that "...there is not currently an adequate safety net for those who are wrongly sanctioned" (same source)? Does it bother you that the rate of successful appeals against sanctions reportedly rose from 20% (in the previous decade) to 58% (recently)?
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sleepwalker
Shipmate
# 15343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In reality, this only happens in Daily Heil-land. In the real world, they have to decide whether it's theirs or their kids' turns to eat today, and whether to pay for heating or cooking. Fuck knows why you'd envy someone for that.
I saw an interesting interview on the BBC last week with a woman who apparently was one of these people. She had a partner and a couple of children. She also had a house which was well furnished and her children were decently clothed. And she had a car. One of her complaints was that she worried that she couldn't find a free parking space for her car.
Maybe she could ditch the car for starters? They cost a fortune to run/maintain. She might then have enough food for everyone.
She could probably do with spending less on her make up as well.
Sound harsh? Maybe. But people's perceptions of the poor are not helped by those whose idea of being poor is, well, not actually being poor at all.
Posts: 267 | From: somewhere other than here | Registered: Dec 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I don't begrudge anybody a life of leisure so long as I'm not paying for it.
The Civil List doesn't count?
No, for two reasons.
1) because it's effectively the fee paid to the Queen in return for her work as Head of State, 70% of which goes directly to pay salaries to the staff she employs anyway.
2) because it was set up in return for the transfer of all profit from the Crown Estates to the Treasury, and thus isn't "something for nothing" even if the Queen's was living a work-free life of leisure.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Bishops taking a pay cut won't put money in people's pockets.
Funny, there are a lot of people who argue exactly that when it's Bankers and CEOs taking the theoretical pay cut rather than Bishops.
Bish ops don't have the power to put money into people's pockets, or take it out of their pockets, at least to any more than a trivial degree. Not so bankers and CEOs. The bonus and remuneration packages of Bishops (as if) don't encourage them to behave recklessly with the nation's wealth. That's not to say that the CofE is immune from such temptations - we are all still paying for the folly of the Church Commissioners during the 'nineties, but it's pretty small beer compared with the global economic crash, the relationship between which and the bonus and remuneration packets was causal, rather than coincidental.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In reality, this only happens in Daily Heil-land. In the real world, they have to decide whether it's theirs or their kids' turns to eat today, and whether to pay for heating or cooking. Fuck knows why you'd envy someone for that.
I saw an interesting interview on the BBC last week with a woman who apparently was one of these people. She had a partner and a couple of children. She also had a house which was well furnished and her children were decently clothed. And she had a car. One of her complaints was that she worried that she couldn't find a free parking space for her car.
Maybe she could ditch the car for starters? They cost a fortune to run/maintain. She might then have enough food for everyone.
Having not seen the program: Do you think she was using the car stupidly? Was she either never using it or taking frivolous trips? Because I find it bizarre to simply assume that she didn't need her car. For instance, many people at my work use their cars to get to work. Some of them would have insane commutes if they did not drive. Others of them would have to otherwise hire someone to get their children to school so that they could get themselves to work in a timely manner. And of course hiring someone every day would probably cost as much as the car gas/upkeep etc. Now yes, others of my colleagues have cars because they want to and don't need them at all. Maybe this woman is a wastrel or a fool. But maybe she isn't. If you have evidence that she is a wastrel or a fool, it would be helpful to mention it. Otherwise I have to wonder whether her real sin isn't that she needed help.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
In most of the country, unfortunately, not having a car cuts you off from a high proportion of possible sources of employment. I wish it weren't so myself, but that's how it is. If I found myself unemployed, one of the last things I'd get rid of would be the car, for that very reason.
[ 04. March 2014, 15:25: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
1) because it's effectively the fee paid to the Queen in return for her work as Head of State, 70% of which goes directly to pay salaries to the staff she employs anyway.
2) because it was set up in return for the transfer of all profit from the Crown Estates to the Treasury, and thus isn't "something for nothing" even if the Queen's was living a work-free life of leisure.
1 - Yes, as such it's a kind of benefit plus expenses payment. 2 - Yes, but the quid pro quo was taking on the personal debt of the monarch at the time as well as that of his ancestors.
If you believe the Queen provides value for money that's an entirely different argument - but then why not put the post up to tender? She'd be guaranteed to be the lowest bidder.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
"One of those people"
"Feckless, the lot o'them. I saw it on telly"
"Dreadful, i read it in the DM"
"Ah but is it Really true?"
Like some have mentioned here, having financial problems and really truly not knowing what the next day is going to bring is not exactly a brilliant position to be in. It requires all the skills that people never knew they had. It takes guts to even get out of bed and face the next day, knowing that who-knows-what could happen before bedtime.
When i was (for a very short time only) in that precarious position, a few bright moments stood out:
*Our pastor sorted a few regular supermarket sessions.
* The bank was remarkably helpful and ensured that we kept a roof over our heads (would they today? i think not)
* Friends did not keep away, we had people around us and that helped.
* I was never on the recieving end of judgemental attitudes.
What we have can be taken away in an instant, we could have to depend on benefits and then what? I only hope that if that sitaution ever happens to me again, that i find myself living in a kind, helpful, cheerful and welcoming community again.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sleepwalker
Shipmate
# 15343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In reality, this only happens in Daily Heil-land. In the real world, they have to decide whether it's theirs or their kids' turns to eat today, and whether to pay for heating or cooking. Fuck knows why you'd envy someone for that.
I saw an interesting interview on the BBC last week with a woman who apparently was one of these people. She had a partner and a couple of children. She also had a house which was well furnished and her children were decently clothed. And she had a car. One of her complaints was that she worried that she couldn't find a free parking space for her car.
Maybe she could ditch the car for starters? They cost a fortune to run/maintain. She might then have enough food for everyone.
Having not seen the program: Do you think she was using the car stupidly? Was she either never using it or taking frivolous trips? Because I find it bizarre to simply assume that she didn't need her car. For instance, many people at my work use their cars to get to work. Some of them would have insane commutes if they did not drive. Others of them would have to otherwise hire someone to get their children to school so that they could get themselves to work in a timely manner. And of course hiring someone every day would probably cost as much as the car gas/upkeep etc. Now yes, others of my colleagues have cars because they want to and don't need them at all. Maybe this woman is a wastrel or a fool. But maybe she isn't. If you have evidence that she is a wastrel or a fool, it would be helpful to mention it. Otherwise I have to wonder whether her real sin isn't that she needed help.
If she can afford to run a car plus a house with two children then she isn't poor. I wasn't commenting upon the nature of her car ownership. I'm not interested in it. But nobody who runs a car is poor.
Posts: 267 | From: somewhere other than here | Registered: Dec 2009
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Why on earth would that be true. Truely seriously boggled here. She could easily be keeping her car to go to work where she makes very little money, and can barely afford to pay the bank for her house. You didn't say whether her car was paid off, so I'm not going to assume car payments, but if you know her car was not paid off, or if you prefer then count them in too. Either way that is a lot of cost and many jobs do not pay very much. Why on earth would you assume she has money in the bank or is not poor because she drives herself to work as opposed to staying in bed and becoming one of those scroungers you hate so much?
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Sleepwalker
Shipmate
# 15343
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In most of the country, unfortunately, not having a car cuts you off from a high proportion of possible sources of employment. I wish it weren't so myself, but that's how it is. If I found myself unemployed, one of the last things I'd get rid of would be the car, for that very reason.
I disagree. Aside from rural areas I have yet to visit or live in a town or city where there is no public transport.
Posts: 267 | From: somewhere other than here | Registered: Dec 2009
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Ay, but oft times the routes may not be exactly where one needs to go and at the time one needs to go there.
+ People, lots of them, Do live in rural areas; strange as it may seem.
Not having a driving license (and access to a car) seems to be counting against me anyway, when trying for paid employment.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In most of the country, unfortunately, not having a car cuts you off from a high proportion of possible sources of employment. I wish it weren't so myself, but that's how it is. If I found myself unemployed, one of the last things I'd get rid of would be the car, for that very reason.
I disagree. Aside from rural areas I have yet to visit or live in a town or city where there is no public transport.
I live in a city with excellent public transportation, as does my sister. I have had to not apply to jobs because there was just no way to get there by public transit plus my bike without a three hour commute. My sister recently had to quit a job because she was finding it took literally five and a half hours to get home by train.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
.... I saw an interesting interview on the BBC last week with a woman who apparently was one of these people. She had a partner and a couple of children. She also had a house which was well furnished and her children were decently clothed. And she had a car. ...
And if her house was a mess, and her furniture was trashed, and her kids were in filthy rags, and her car was on blocks in the front yard, would that be equally "interesting"? How, exactly, should poor people dress their kids and maintain their homes? Badly or well? Because it sure looks like whatever they do, they will still be criticized by the privileged.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
If she can afford to run a car plus a house with two children then she isn't poor. I wasn't commenting upon the nature of her car ownership. I'm not interested in it. But nobody who runs a car is poor.
Here in L.A. a large percentage of our homeless live in their cars-- especially those with children. It's much safer and warmer than on the streets and far, far cheaper than rent.
I realize the woman in question has a home in addition to a car, just agreeing with others that we don't have enough info. to make such hard and fast declarations.
[ 04. March 2014, 17:30: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In most of the country, unfortunately, not having a car cuts you off from a high proportion of possible sources of employment. I wish it weren't so myself, but that's how it is. If I found myself unemployed, one of the last things I'd get rid of would be the car, for that very reason.
I disagree. Aside from rural areas I have yet to visit or live in a town or city where there is no public transport.
Welcome to Los Angeles!
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
quote:
People don't need Lady Bountifuls to have hot meals with them, they need justice.
Sadly this is the prevailing attitude in these hard times - It's not my job to help my neighbour - it's the government's - Not my jobsworth - Not me, guv, charity starts at home, mate
Perhaps some of us should take out the plank in our own eye before taking a swipe at others' shortcomings.
How dare you. You have no idea of the anti-poverty work I do. Being opposed to injustice does not equal being a jobsworth. As a person who has actually been poor and knows what it is like, I get to talk about my lived experiences. You do not.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Oh, and kale used to be grown as cattle-feed - people (poor people) started to eat it during the last two world wars.
Isn't Littlejohn's point that today kale is a largely middle-class (or, rather, a particular kind of middle class) person's food, regardless of who might have eaten it in the past?
But it's crap. Kale is a cheap vegetable, no more expensive or middle-class than spring greens.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Oh, and kale used to be grown as cattle-feed - people (poor people) started to eat it during the last two world wars.
Isn't Littlejohn's point that today kale is a largely middle-class (or, rather, a particular kind of middle class) person's food, regardless of who might have eaten it in the past?
But it's crap. Kale is a cheap vegetable, no more expensive or middle-class than spring greens.
Depends on where you live, at least in the US. If you live in an inner-city "food desert" it is very much a middle class foodie thing.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
She could probably do with spending less on her make up as well.
This is a bit weird. I have makeup (look away, health inspectors) that is twenty-five years old at this point, because I rarely wear it, and it is the dry powdery stuff. But you can bet I'd dig it out if I knew I were going to be on TV.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
So. Was the Bishop right to speak out?
Or does it just stir up our entrenched opinions? Should he have kept quiet?
Given the thread so far, i think that he was Right.
[ 04. March 2014, 18:20: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
.... I saw an interesting interview on the BBC last week with a woman who apparently was one of these people. She had a partner and a couple of children. She also had a house which was well furnished and her children were decently clothed. And she had a car. ...
And if her house was a mess, and her furniture was trashed, and her kids were in filthy rags, and her car was on blocks in the front yard, would that be equally "interesting"? How, exactly, should poor people dress their kids and maintain their homes? Badly or well? Because it sure looks like whatever they do, they will still be criticized by the privileged.
Quite. Reading this thread has been bad for my blood pressure. It seems to me that this article is sadly correct.
If anyone thinks, like Marvin, that he'll be lucky to get ill and be off work, think again, because this is now the way of things.
There is a shortage of jobs in this country; there will always be some feckless people in any country. Some of those feckless people will be unemployed, but most unemployed people are not feckless, just as most disabled people are not liars. Both groups are being treated as though they are dishonest pieces of shit.
I would like to know why Christians see the people at the bottom of our society as so 'other' that it's OK to demonise them, patronise them or indeed ridicule them as has been made clear on this thread.
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Depends on where you live, at least in the US. If you live in an inner-city "food desert" it is very much a middle class foodie thing.
Yes, but it isn't really in the UK. Firstly most supermarkets will sell it - and even at the prices they charge it's one of the cheaper vegetables. You'll get it sold in markets alongside spring greens - and plenty of people use it as a cabbage substitute.
Slightly exaggerating - the US model is based on growing everything in one place and then packaging it and shipping it around the country. So - grow all potatoes in Idaho, tin them and ship them everywhere. Ironically, the poor neighbourhoods where it *is* possible to find plenty of fresh vegetables are usually those dominated by recent migrants - those who missed out on the whole veg-in-a-tin/dinner-in-a-tray ethic of the 50s and 60s.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Oh, and kale used to be grown as cattle-feed - people (poor people) started to eat it during the last two world wars.
Isn't Littlejohn's point that today kale is a largely middle-class (or, rather, a particular kind of middle class) person's food, regardless of who might have eaten it in the past?
But it's crap.
Having first tried it about four months ago, I actually quite like it.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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claret10
Ship's Paranoid Android
# 16341
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Posted
So three things that strike me from the previous posts.
I currently live on benefits having been forced out of a well-paying job, by my mental health.
1) Budgeting - To save money my bills are on direct debit which is taken monthly, my benefits are paid 2 and 4 weekly. I need to use an excel spreadsheet to keep on top of things. (and before some of you complain about me affording a computer, I brought when I was working (so now worthless))
2) Bus service - Where I live on the edge of a town, we get a bus every 2 hours, yes I could and do cycle. However, this same bus (which is council supported, so constantly under threat of being knocked on the head) is the only bus which serves 5 local villages. So for most a car is essential.
3) The make up – clearly this woman (I didn't see the programme) has enough self respect to get up in the morning and apply make up etc. However, you seem to expect the poor to look as if they have no self-respect, yet still have enough to constantly search for and be declined for jobs.
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Just when you think life can't possibly get any worse it suddenly does
Posts: 137 | From: Somewhere, nowhere, anywhere | Registered: Apr 2011
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
But you're not sure are you because you have never seen any starving people? Where are they all? Actually we are often the first port of call for just about any crisis situation.
How the fuck do you know what I've seen or experienced?
Just because you've never seen any starving people doesn't mean they don't exist. And actually, yes, I have seen starving people. I worked for social services over 30 years ago and I've seen desperate mothers with nothing to feed their children waiting outside for the office to open. SS had a legal duty to give whatever help was needed to prevent children being taken into care and this meant they gave food vouchers to local supermarkets.
I've been a single parent on a low income too and I know what it's like to go hungry so that a child can eat or have some other necessity, like a birthday present - so don't tell me what I've seen and know.
quote:
All this exaggeration masks the fact that there are many people who are not starving but still in real needive theg. If Christians stopped running round like headless chickens and asked local charities what they can do to help, the world would be a better place.
What exaggeration? There are plenty of people without enough money to pay their bills and feed themselves. Unemployed people under 25 for example are expected to live on £53 a week. This is to cover heating, water rates, telephone, transport, laundry costs, clothes, toiletries, haircuts, and of course, food. If anyone is to stand a chance of getting a job they need to look presentable and to be accessible by phone. They also need to be able to travel to interviews or just to the job centre. Food prices have risen. What do you think it costs for a single person to feed themselves adequately?
[ 04. March 2014, 19:38: Message edited by: justlooking ]
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
That's an important point re under-25s. You get less money even though you fill the same criteria and are quite likely to have a family and other responsibilities, grants for young people on low incomes have vanished (there was much more when I was homeless/vulnerably housed and this wasn't too long ago) and under-25s on Housing Benefit (for many young people, the only way they can afford a home) are at risk of losing their benefit simply due to their age (both Tories and Labour have endorsed taking Housing Benefit away from under-25s). That is surely blatant ageism - I was made homeless at 17 but had to pay the same as someone ten or twenty years older than me when I was living in hostels. I still had rent to pay, food to buy, bills and TV license etc. And though I was single and childfree, it's hardly unreasonable for someone in their early twenties to have children - so why penalise them?
Edited to add that when I was on Income Support when homeless (I was still in full time education), I got £45 a week. To pay for everything. If it's £53 a week now, that is a shockingly small increase in 8 years. Those in my situation now don't even have EMA or similar to help.
[ 04. March 2014, 19:57: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
I disagree. Aside from rural areas I have yet to visit or live in a town or city where there is no public transport.
Really?
Actually I suppose I am struggling to think of a town without any public transport.
(moderate sized villages is easy definitely. A moderate look found one with a pop of 250 with nothing and many 150's.) Looking at the county map I guess your looking at at least 10% of the population that are literally miles from a bus.
The bigger villages (pop 1000) often do have a bus service. But that your talking about a two hourly bus in one direction. So your job range is narrowed (and trivially the problems I mention below are magnified)
This more or less continues into the small towns (pop 10000).
There's an hourly/half hourly service between the big towns, and they can be quite slow. So that's potentially 3 hours a day in best case.
And at 7PM cuts off many of the routes between towns (I got caught out like this and I was due to look after my brother), and the first bus arrives at 7AM. They also mostly have a railway (though it's little good for getting between towns).
So I suppose technically true. But either said from someone who's picked where they visit carefully, or someone who's not considered actually how it restricts your job search area.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sleepwalker:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In most of the country, unfortunately, not having a car cuts you off from a high proportion of possible sources of employment. I wish it weren't so myself, but that's how it is. If I found myself unemployed, one of the last things I'd get rid of would be the car, for that very reason.
I disagree. Aside from rural areas I have yet to visit or live in a town or city where there is no public transport.
I'm glad you know the local bus timetable here better than I do.
Here's a challenge for you. A person in Brimington, Derbyshire, (near me and with a better bus service) is offered a job, potentially, in South Anston, Rotherham. It's 15 miles. Show me how they'd get there without a car. Show me how long it'd take. And find out how much the fares would cost. By the way, it's retail work and they have to be there at 8am when the place opens. Minimum wage, so figure out how much is left after paying the fares.
Off you go, seeing as you know I'm wrong.
[ 05. March 2014, 08:51: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
... I would like to know why Christians see the people at the bottom of our society as so 'other' that it's OK to demonise them, patronise them or indeed ridicule them ...
Indeed. I'd like to know why conversations about poverty seems so much like conversations about smoking in the 1980s. 'Doesn't the risk of cancer worry you?' someone would ask. 'What about my granny who smoked like a chimney and lived to 95?' someone would reply. Most people now wouldn't argue that anecdotes trump evidence of the health risks of smoking. Yet, when we talk about poverty, people still talk as if anecdotes trump other kinds of evidence.
Why do people do that? Is it because parts of the media repeatedly tell us anecdotes about people who sound like they're well-off on welfare? Haven't psychologists found when people repeatedly hear about something, we tend to think that it frequently happens(the availability bias or the availability heuristic)? Maybe these parts of the media think that we won't notice their attempts to manipulate us?
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
Maybe these parts of the media think that we won't notice their attempts to manipulate us?
They appear to be right.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Here's a challenge for you. A person in Brimington, Derbyshire, (near me and with a better bus service) is offered a job, potentially, in South Anston, Rotherham. It's 15 miles. Show me how they'd get there without a car. Show me how long it'd take. And find out how much the fares would cost. By the way, it's retail work and they have to be there at 8am when the place opens. Minimum wage, so figure out how much is left after paying the fares.
Looks like a trick question, but quite possible to get there for 8.20am.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
(Reply to alienfromzog) Yes - that seems like the best explanation for the gap between people's perceptions of welfare and the reality, as discussed on a previous thread.
[ 05. March 2014, 09:04: Message edited by: Alwyn ]
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Here's a challenge for you. A person in Brimington, Derbyshire, (near me and with a better bus service) is offered a job, potentially, in South Anston, Rotherham. It's 15 miles. Show me how they'd get there without a car. Show me how long it'd take. And find out how much the fares would cost. By the way, it's retail work and they have to be there at 8am when the place opens. Minimum wage, so figure out how much is left after paying the fares.
Looks like a trick question, but quite possible to get there for 8.20am.
So the person gets fired for being late. Working in retail is not like working in an office, you cannot be late or there is nobody to set up or serve customers.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Looks like a trick question, but quite possible to get there for 8.20am.
So the person gets fired for being late. Working in retail is not like working in an office, you cannot be late or there is nobody to set up or serve customers.
I know how retail works - I've done it.
Presumably, though, one wouldn't apply for a job one knows one cannot do (or would at least negotiate one's hours with one's manager)?
[ 05. March 2014, 09:36: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't: quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Looks like a trick question, but quite possible to get there for 8.20am.
So the person gets fired for being late. Working in retail is not like working in an office, you cannot be late or there is nobody to set up or serve customers.
I know how retail works - I've done it.
Presumably, though, one wouldn't apply for a job one knows one cannot do (or would at least negotiate one's hours with one's manager)?
Exactly. One wouldn't apply for a job one cannot do - i.e. relying on public transport will restrict your choice of jobs - QED. Negotiating hours is generally difficult or impossible from a position of weakness - i.e. currently unemployed.
As it happens, it's quite possible to get there for 8, if you set of at around 6.30am. Of course, the other part of my challenge regards the fares. The train alone will be about £7 a day, IIRC. Quite a lot when you're being paid £50 a day before deductions. Bus fare I know into Chesterfield is around £2 each way. I expect the bus from Sheffield to S Anston is more.
If you're fit you could bike it (I could) but what when there's two foot of snow?
[Gah. Code]
[ 05. March 2014, 09:49: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Presumably, though, one wouldn't apply for a job one knows one cannot do (or would at least negotiate one's hours with one's manager)?
1. You don't have much choice - you have to apply for jobs, even unsuitable ones, to keep your benefits. Imagine how that must annoy those recruiting to get hundreds of job apps from people not qualified for the role.
A mate of mine was on jobseekers - as there are so few jobs where he is he MUST apply for nationally advertised ones. He's a great guy, caring, kind, honest, resourceful and very reliable but has only one O level. He was told to apply for senior sales manager jobs -- he's never done it, he doesn't drive because he's partially sighted. I know because he was doing that when he stayed with me.
2. If you've been in retail you should know that in most posts there are non negotiable core hours. You open at 8:30 - you not only have to be there to serve but ready to serve: i.e. rolling up yourself at 8:30 is too late. After a while the excuse or reason for lateness - the bus didn't turn up wears thin and you don't get a permanent job after your probation (which can be as long as 2 years).
It's cruel I know but think of the shop owner's position: if staff aren't in whether through their fault or someone else's, customers won't get served, trade will decline (there's always competition) and more people would lose their jobs. I don't agree with the thinking and the action but it doesn't stop it being there and occurring. It's a double whammy to those who have to travel.
Bear in mind too that it is not just yr boss or customers that struggle with this - it will be your work mates who can there on time. Of all of them that pressure is often the worse.
[code]
[ 06. March 2014, 07:40: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Presumably, though, one wouldn't apply for a job one knows one cannot do (or would at least negotiate one's hours with one's manager)?
1. You don't have much choice - you have to apply for jobs, even unsuitable ones, to keep your benefits. Imagine how that must annoy those recruiting to get hundreds of job apps from people not qualified for the role.
A mate of mine was on jobseekers - as there are so few jobs where he is he MUST apply for nationally advertised ones. He's a great guy, caring, kind, honest, resourceful and very reliable but has only one O level. He was told to apply for senior sales manager jobs -- he's never done it, he doesn't drive because he's partially sighted. I know because he was doing that when he stayed with me.
My own experience of signing on is that when you start claiming you sit down with your adviser and decide on the parameters of your job search. This includes the travel time (which in my experience has been 60 - 90 minutes).
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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