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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: BBC Article on Medical Miracles
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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Sometimes Jesus asked people to state "the bleedin' obvious". I think he did it out of love, not bloody mindedness or pastoral insensitivity. As if getting a person to articulate their desire is a good thing in and of itself.
As far as I can remember Jesus asked people what they wanted him to do - not why they wanted it. The guy in the anecdote had stated clearly what he wanted... so asking him why he wanted it would not be following Jesus' example.
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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine
Posts: 1090 | From: En lieu sûr | Registered: Dec 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Okay, that would seems to mean touching the body of the physical man Jesus or Jesus' presence in some way is required.
Not always. See Luke 7:1-10.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
There's nothing wrong with asking why someone wants something. And I don't believe that it would be wrong to ask this question in these circumstances. As I said before, sometimes helping someone to state the unsaid can actually be quite helpful, even in stressful situations.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Wouldn't you say, Daronmedway, that a lot depended on the way the guy asked the question?
Someone in that situation is unlikely to be calm and rationale.
Quite frankly, if someone were in a high state of anxiety and you gave them an answer like that then I'd fully expect you to be grabbed by the throat, punched or physically assaulted in some way - or at least sworn at.
I can imagine some Shipmates had an angry enough reaction when they read your post containing what could come across as a rather dismissive and pastorally insensitive question.
'Why do I want a miracle?! Because my little girl if fucking dying in the next room you bastard twat!!!'
Does it not occur to you that this the sort of reaction you might get. And bloody well deserve too, if you ask me.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
There's nothing wrong with asking why someone wants something. And I don't believe that it would be wrong to ask this question in these circumstances. As I said before, sometimes helping someone to state the unsaid can actually be quite helpful, even in stressful situations.
There's a time and a place for everything. And the time and place to discuss this is Hell.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
daronmedway -
I think there is some justification for your concern. Even with an obvious healing, we should never make assumptions.
Jesus never just assumed and stormed in.
Consider the story of blind Bartimaeus (Mark 10).
quote:
Now they came to Jericho. As He went out of Jericho with His disciples and a great multitude, blind Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus, sat by the road begging. And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out and say, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!”
Then many warned him to be quiet; but he cried out all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!”
So Jesus stood still and commanded him to be called.
Then they called the blind man, saying to him, “Be of good cheer. Rise, He is calling you.”
And throwing aside his garment, he rose and came to Jesus.
So Jesus answered and said to him, “What do you want Me to do for you?”
The blind man said to Him, “Rabboni, that I may receive my sight.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus on the road.
Now would you not think that Jesus' question to Bartimaeus was just stupid and insensitive? Isn't it obvious what the poor bloke wants and needs?
I have sometimes been very moved by this story, precisely because of the use of this question. So often people think they know what others want, but Jesus takes the time to actually find out - even when it's obvious. This is an example of deep respect for another person's dignity, instead of just regarding him as nothing more than a "healing project", and then swooping in without invitation.
The patronising attitude of "I know what's best for you" is not Christlike.
[ 11. March 2014, 21:21: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
The patronising attitude of "I know what's best for you" is not Christlike.
As has been pointed out, the question daronmedway suggested was not "what do you want", which I agree can in some circumstances be a very useful one, but "why do you want a miracle", in a specific, crisis scenario. They are not the same question, and they are not the same circumstances.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
My answer would be 'Me too.' at most I hope. Or better yet, I would give God's answer, which He always gives to all our petitions: a nod, a pursed lipped smile, full eye contact, my full attention, my complete and utter helplessness, my ignorance, my shame, my solidarity, my apology, my complete acceptance of being reviled for daring to exist and represent hopeless hope.
EE, bless your enemies by refusing to have any. Or something else is at the door.
Your pattern reminds me of mine.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
It is wrong to judge someone as a bully for an aggressive reaction when their daughter's life may be ebbing away. The loss of control and imminent bereavement doesn't bring out the best in anyone.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It is wrong to judge someone as a bully for an aggressive reaction when their daughter's life may be ebbing away. The loss of control and imminent bereavement doesn't bring out the best in anyone.
Well said - a one off incident doesn't make a bully, especially in conditions of extreme stress.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Wouldn't you say, Daronmedway, that a lot depended on the way the guy asked the question?
Someone in that situation is unlikely to be calm and rationale.
Quite frankly, if someone were in a high state of anxiety and you gave them an answer like that then I'd fully expect you to be grabbed by the throat, punched or physically assaulted in some way - or at least sworn at.
I can imagine some Shipmates had an angry enough reaction when they read your post containing what could come across as a rather dismissive and pastorally insensitive question.
'Why do I want a miracle?! Because my little girl if fucking dying in the next room you bastard twat!!!'
Does it not occur to you that this the sort of reaction you might get. And bloody well deserve too, if you ask me.
I guess it's possible that this person might resort to physical violence, as I've already pointed out, the behaviour is already physically intimidating. As for pastoral insensitivity, I'm not convinced that the vicarious ire being expressed here on this thread is entirely justified, or honest. As I've said before, getting a person to express themselves further isn't necessarily a bad thing, even if what they express is anger. As it stands I think the question, "Tell me, why do you want a miracle?" is a reasonable option among a wide variety of possible options.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It is wrong to judge someone as a bully for an aggressive reaction when their daughter's life may be ebbing away. The loss of control and imminent bereavement doesn't bring out the best in anyone.
The scenario in question doesn't present the father's behaviour as an aggressive reaction to the Chaplain per se. It presents it as an act of aggression toward the chaplain due to conditions of extreme anxiety. But it's an act of aggression nonetheless. That's why hospitals have signs up stating a zero tolerance policy regarding aggression against their staff. Presumably, zero tolerance means no caveats. Not that this is directly related to - or justifies - the question I've posited. It's just an answer to what you've said.
[ 12. March 2014, 07:56: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
zero tolerance means no caveats
Great, let's have hospital chaplains getting grieving parents reported to security and arrested ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
It's impossible to pursue this conversation outside Hell.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The scenario in question doesn't present the father's behaviour as an aggressive reaction to the Chaplain per se. It presents it as an act of aggression toward the chaplain due to conditions of extreme anxiety. But it's an act of aggression nonetheless. That's why hospitals have signs up stating a zero tolerance policy regarding aggression against their staff. Presumably, zero tolerance means no caveats. Not that this is directly related to - or justifies - the question I've posited. It's just an answer to what you've said.
I can appreciate why anyone who has no experience of this kind of ministry might think that. But this scenario doesn't come under the heading of "zero tolerance". It comes under the heading of "I'm really glad I'm trained in conflict resolution".
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It is wrong to judge someone as a bully for an aggressive reaction when their daughter's life may be ebbing away. The loss of control and imminent bereavement doesn't bring out the best in anyone.
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The scenario in question doesn't present the father's behaviour as an aggressive reaction to the Chaplain per se. It presents it as an act of aggression toward the chaplain due to conditions of extreme anxiety. But it's an act of aggression nonetheless. That's why hospitals have signs up stating a zero tolerance policy regarding aggression against their staff. Presumably, zero tolerance means no caveats. Not that this is directly related to - or justifies - the question I've posited. It's just an answer to what you've said.
I don't think it is an answer. Zero tolerance of aggression or not, it's still wrong to judge him as a bully.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Looking back at the OP and the BBC item, the folly of those claiming to raise the dead seems only to be highlighted in the Deadraisers documentary. They go around trying to raise the dead and cannot do it. I've seen this for years in certain charismatic circles—but never with a single shred of proof. In the cases of bona fide loonies like Bill Johnson, they were later revealed as liars on top of it all.
Imagine that someone tells you that they can make cows fly through God's power. You ask to see this happen under some kind of controlled way so that the animals are actually flying, rather than just falling to their deaths or held up by wires. You go do the cliffs near Eastbourne and watch as they push dozens and then hundreds of cows to their deaths. Finally, they push over every single cow in Kent. When they insist that just because these cows are not flying that only the most cynical skeptic of divine power would deny that somewhere, some cows will fly. Perhaps these cows didn't want to fly? They reject the mountain of cow carcasses as any kind of evidence against their belief that through God's power they can make cows fly. This is not a million miles away from the position of faith healers. For them, the light of truth must never be shone on their activities, lest they have to look at the piles of bodies.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Belief in miraculous healing makes me deeply sad. It's sad enough that we get ill and die, but even sadder that so many people have genuine and heartbreakingly futile hope in some nonexistent deity answering their desperate appeals.
One can only hope that the comfort provided by religious beliefs outweighs the dreadful sense of disappointment and forsakenness. I suppose it must, generally speaking.
Sending vibes to all who are suffering illness and bereavement.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
zero tolerance means no caveats
Great, let's have hospital chaplains getting grieving parents reported to security and arrested
It's impossible to pursue this conversation outside Hell.
Firstly, as I said, "not that this is directly related to - or justifies - the question I've posited. It's just an answer to what [mdijon] said."
Secondly, I've said nothing about reporting anyone. I simply pointed out that hospitals are by their very nature high stress environments and yet they have still have zero tolerance policies regarding the verbal and physical abuse and intimidation of their staff.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
This thread is not about hospital policy, and neither is this tangent. It's about transposing the issue of healing into real-life crisis situations.
There are a number of unanswered questions about that which are nothing to do with hospital policy.
(And besides, as Adeodatus has pointed out, while those notices are there as a warning, they are one instrument in an array of resources to cope with patients which also incldues conflict resolution).
There are also some personal issues - such as your allegations of dishonesty in answers - which can only be addressed outside the scope of this thread and which I have taken to Hell, where you have opted not to engage so far.
[ 12. March 2014, 09:37: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This thread is not about hospital policy, and neither is this tangent. It's about transposing the issue of healing into real-life crisis situations.
Actually, I think hospital policy is a perfectly legitimate avenue of discussion given the scenario presented by Adeodatus.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
There are a number of unanswered questions about that which are nothing to do with hospital policy.
Ask away.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Looking back at the OP and the BBC item, the folly of those claiming to raise the dead seems only to be highlighted in the Deadraisers documentary. They go around trying to raise the dead and cannot do it. I've seen this for years in certain charismatic circles—but never with a single shred of proof. In the cases of bona fide loonies like Bill Johnson, they were later revealed as liars on top of it all.
The influence of Bilge Onson among mainstream evangelicals is cause for concern. His peculiar form of low Christology/high pneumatology is dangerous because it attempts to give theological justification for highly unrealistic expectations by denying the uniqueness of Christ's miracles as the God-man. Jesus merely becomes the ideal Spirit-filled person to which we can all aspire, rather the unique Son of God with unique authority.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
Belief in miraculous healing makes me deeply sad. It's sad enough that we get ill and die, but even sadder that so many people have genuine and heartbreakingly futile hope in some nonexistent deity answering their desperate appeals.
One can only hope that the comfort provided by religious beliefs outweighs the dreadful sense of disappointment and forsakenness. I suppose it must, generally speaking.
Sending vibes to all who are suffering illness and bereavement.
Oh the joys of looking at the world through atheist eyes!
Thankfully not all of us have to carry that terrible burden.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I completely agree with that last post about Bilge Onson, Daronmedway and I do enjoy those bon-mots ... Bent Toddley and so on ... very droll.
However, I don't like being accused of dishonesty when having a natural reaction - in terms of vicarious anger - to what I've taken to be one of your less salutary remarks.
Consequently, whilst agreeing with your last point I am going to continue to goad you in Hell where you have justifiably been called.
Take your punishment like a man ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Belief in miraculous healing makes me deeply sad. It's sad enough that we get ill and die, but even sadder that so many people have genuine and heartbreakingly futile hope in some nonexistent deity answering their desperate appeals.
One can only hope that the comfort provided by religious beliefs outweighs the dreadful sense of disappointment and forsakenness. I suppose it must, generally speaking.
Sending vibes to all who are suffering illness and bereavement.
There are days when I thank God for atheists.
Here's another way of looking at it. If (big "if") there are people whose prayers for healing God listens to and grants - well whoop-de-doo, and let's all have a rousing chorus of When The Saints Go Marching In.
But if you think that's the case, then there's a far, far bigger majority of people - very nearly everybody in fact - to whom God either doesn't listen, or to whom he says "no". Those are my people, the people I spend my days with. Most of them, of course, do the sensible thing - either God doesn't come into their thinking at all, or if he does, they have very low expectations of him. But a few question, and are disappointed, and hurt, and angry, and it's mostly because they hear Christians banging on about the Lovely Big God Who Heals and they want to know why Lovely Big God hasn't healed them.
They don't need theology. They don't need people who think it's okay to lie and cheat as long as they lie and cheat for God. They don't need the frauds. They don't need the Christians who need God to do magic, or their faith falls apart. Twenty years of experience has taught me that what they mostly need is someone who has wrestled with God just like they're wrestling with him, and has the scars to prove it. Someone who can show them you can be with God and against him at the same time. Someone who can show them faith-in-spite-of, not faith-because-of.
I've been in situations close to the one I described. I remember one pretty scary one, when I was confronted with a very angry person. My response? Silence. A silence that felt very long indeed (but probably wasn't), in which I was gambling that the guy would get less angry, not more. But I'd guessed that this was a person who wasn't great with words, that his anger was partly frustration at not being able to express himself any other way, and that big eloquent words probably weren't a great idea here. And after the silence I said very softly, "Let's sit down." And what I recall after that is mostly an overwhelming sense of privilege as I listened to his story in whatever words he could find to tell it.
Was God doing stuff there? I have no idea. It certainly felt like it was just me and the other guy, so if God was doing stuff it was bloody subtle. And that's my experience time after time.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
There are a number of unanswered questions about that which are nothing to do with hospital policy.
Ask away.
What are your grounds for asking anybody quote:
"Tell me, why do you want a miracle?"
(bearing in mind that there is a significant difference between this question and Jesus' question "what do you want me to do for you"?)
quote:
The Apostle Peter wasn't Jesus and he, apparently, was able to bring healing on at least one occasion, so it would seem that your argument isn't entirely sound.
How, precisely, do you think the Apostle Peter "was able to bring healing" if not through the agency of the Spirit? Could he do it independently of the Spirit, to order, on his good days, or what? Do you think, as you seem to claim, that he could "do one if asked"?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Firstly, as I said, "not that this is directly related to - or justifies - the question I've posited. It's just an answer to what [mdijon] said."
Except it isn't. You described this man as a bully. I don't think it is reasonable to say that based on his reaction in such an extreme scenario.
Whether what he's doing is bad, or is against hospital policy which has zero tolerance for it, nevertheless it is wrong to call him a bully.
I think both this judgement and your suggested question are symptomatic of you not allowing for his emotional state in how you think here.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Perhaps. Either that or it's just a different approach that some people are unwilling, for their own reasons, to accept.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
There are a number of unanswered questions about that which are nothing to do with hospital policy.
Ask away.
What are your grounds for asking anybody quote:
"Tell me, why do you want a miracle?"
(bearing in mind that there is a significant difference between this question and Jesus' question "what do you want me to do for you"?)
quote:
The Apostle Peter wasn't Jesus and he, apparently, was able to bring healing on at least one occasion, so it would seem that your argument isn't entirely sound.
How, precisely, do you think the Apostle Peter "was able to bring healing" if not through the agency of the Spirit? Could he do it independently of the Spirit, to order, on his good days, or what? Do you think, as you seem to claim, that he could "do one if asked"?
The intent behind the question would be to get the man to articulate his desires for his daughter rather than his demands of the chaplain.
I do not think that Peter or any other Christian can produce miracles to order.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
What 'different approach' is that, daronmedway?
A pastorally insensitive one?
I can accept that there are different ways of handling a situation like this one.
I'm interested in what you might say to the guy next.
Guy: I need a miracle! My 4 year old daughter is dying! I need one now-ww-ww!!!!'
Chaplain: Why do you need a miracle?
Guy: It's obvious, can't you see? My daughter's dying! Without a miracle she will be dead within the hour! You've got to do something! Where's your God now?!
Right, Daron - over to you. Your next comment to the soon to be bereaved and distraught parent is?:
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Maybe you could explain a bit more about what sort of response you would expect, why you think it would be helpful in that situation to provoke such a response, and how you would deal with the response?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry, I cross-posted ...
Ok, so the next step would be to examine the basis for the parent's demands for his daughter ie. a miracle.
Thereby taking the pressure off the chaplain to produce one ...
'You see, Mr Phelps, we may all want a miracle, particularly in a situation like this, but let's examine for a moment our reasons for wanting such a thing ...'
I must admit, I'm struggling to think of a reason why one may or may not be granted in this instance and why or how the parent's desire for one has much bearing on the outcome.
I'm really struggling to see how anything you could say along those lines is going to be of any practical use to him whatsoever.
Are you questioning the parent's motives in the way you are questioning the motives and integrity of those who had a visceral, gut-level, knee-jerk reaction to the appalling insensitivity of your opening question?
You'll be blaming the parent next. It's all their fault for presuming to expect a miracle in the first place ...they shouldn't have been so presumptuous ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Maybe you could explain a bit more about what sort of response you would expect, why you think it would be helpful in that situation to provoke such a response, and how you would deal with the response?
The job of a priest, at least in part, is to point people to Christ. In my experience it's easier to point people to Christ by redirecting their stated desires to him rather than running away with the misconception that I can 'be' Christ to them in an immediate sense.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The intent behind the question would be to get the man to articulate his desires for his daughter rather than his demands of the chaplain
In that case, why not just ask "what do you want for your daughter"? That would already be infinitely better.
To me, quote:
Tell me, why do you want a miracle?
implies one of two things.
It implies either that a miracle will be granted if the right answer is supplied, or that it is pointless asking for one at all.
Neither of those appear to be pastorally appropriate at that juncture, to say the least.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
I am a hospital chaplain, but have not come across a similar scenario yet..
There are many possibilities for filling out the too thin description of the scenario. Is he looking me in the eyes? His wife is there - what is she doing? Is he glancing at her as he asks his qustion. What is his expression communicating? Is it question or a statement of anger or frustration? I don't think we have this information, though others may think we know enough.
I can imagine a scenario where after a pause I could say 'We all do.'.
There have been other situations where by managing to keep my composure the threatening situation has passed. It is very human for a person to be angry with God, and if I am trying to be the image of God then that anger will be directed at me. I have been hit only once, and that was by a demented patient who was not responsible for his actions.
My byline emphasises the value of asking questions. This is a situation where a question is probably not appropriate. I think this is more likely to be a time to provide a sustaining presence, though I anticipate criticisms of this being a too formulaic response.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway
I do not think that Peter or any other Christian can produce miracles to order.
I remember once hearing a Christian GP (whose name escapes me), who was sceptical about miracle healing claims, saying that "if we had convincing evidence that this happens, then we could prescribe it for patients".
I don't think he really 'got' it!
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
There are, of course, spontaneous remissions that happen in the general run of things without prayer apparently being involved.
I know a Christian physiotherapist who has all kinds of stories of this sort of thing happening, with no discernible 'faith' element involved whatsoever.
That isn't to dismiss the story that bib told about the GP and the disappearing tumour ...
It's simply to state that the evidence isn't clear cut. I'm not sure it's helpful to divide these things into a binary 'sceptics vs everyone else' debate.
The details that we have don't permit us to draw hard and fast lines nor come to hard and fast conclusions in many of these instances.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet
Okay, that would seems to mean touching the body of the physical man Jesus or Jesus' presence in some way is required. Does this mean that when healing does not happen, we have not prayed well enough to merit Jesus' presence? Its all very well to heal this one and ignore another one. Or perhaps the point of the miracle stories is to impress the reader. Which I think is the context in actuality.
I am not sure whether you are saying that you think the miracle stories were just fabricated, but the point I am making is that there are situations (true or fictional) in which we can see the operation of a constraint, that allows us to identify a particular supernatural source for a miracle such as a healing.
As for whether a candidate for healing needs the presence of Jesus: yes, I think that is the case, although I would hesitate to use the phrase "merit Jesus' presence". We come into the presence of God / Christ by grace.
What I think it not that there are "hard lies" or premeditated fabrications in the sense of bearing false witness. What I think is that "true believers" would have observed what was happening as Jesus moved through the crowd and become enraptured , such that they interpreted the occurrences as sensational and miraculous. The sceptical in the crowd would have interpreted these things differently. -- My interpretation is based the idea that God cannot order me into belief or faith, that the world appears ordered within full human freedom, and that God disdains to interfere with that.
We also have the problem of Judas. How could he have betrayed Jesus if he'd been present for any of the miracles? Obviously, the written accounts are one way of viewing what was happening and there are evidently others. Was Judas in the boat when Jesus walked on water?
How about the Roman solider in the garden at Jesus' arrest and his ear being healed. One would think the who troop of soldiers would be impressed by this. But some must have interpreted the occurrence differently. How is this and parallel things possible?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet
We also have the problem of Judas. How could he have betrayed Jesus if he'd been present for any of the miracles? Obviously, the written accounts are one way of viewing what was happening and there are evidently others. Was Judas in the boat when Jesus walked on water?
How about the Roman solider in the garden at Jesus' arrest and his ear being healed. One would think the who troop of soldiers would be impressed by this. But some must have interpreted the occurrence differently. How is this and parallel things possible?
I don't see this as a problem at all. If anything, it justifies God's judgment of Judas and others, because of their high level of personal accountability. It doesn't follow that just because someone has seen a miracle, he will automatically believe. There is the hardness, pride and obduracy of the human heart to take into account, which causes some people to reject God, despite no end of overwhelming and compelling evidence.
It's the reality of evil working through human free will, I'm afraid.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I don't see this as a problem at all. If anything, it justifies God's judgment of Judas and others, because of their high level of personal accountability. It doesn't follow that just because someone has seen a miracle, he will automatically believe. There is the hardness, pride and obduracy of the human heart to take into account, which causes some people to reject God, despite no end of overwhelming and compelling evidence.
It's the reality of evil working through human free will, I'm afraid.
To which I would add:
quote:
He said to him, “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”
Luke 16.31
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There are, of course, spontaneous remissions that happen in the general run of things without prayer apparently being involved.
I know a Christian physiotherapist who has all kinds of stories of this sort of thing happening, with no discernible 'faith' element involved whatsoever.
That isn't to dismiss the story that bib told about the GP and the disappearing tumour ...
It's simply to state that the evidence isn't clear cut. .
True on a number of levels. "Spontaneous remission" is another way of saying something got better and we don't know why. Which isn't to say prayer wasn't involved somewhere. Depends on your view of providence. To what extent would these spontaneous remissions happen if churches around the world didn't pray daily "for those who are sick?" It's an interesting "in house" question for Christians. And also just to repeat the point that you can never get a completely pure control group when prayer is involved, which will always leave open key counterfactual questions.
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
@ no prophet re your exchange with Higgs Bosun and EE.
Here's a true story. A teenager turned up to a Christian evangelistic event with a badly sprained ankle. At the end of the meeting there was a general prayer for healing. The lad came back the next day and had a word with one of the mission team, saying that when they prayed for healing he felt heat in his ankle which was healed on the spot. The lad was asked if he had decided to follow Christ. The teenager said he didn't want to become a Christian. He was a keen roller skater (that's where he picked up his injury) which is what he did on Sunday mornings. If he became a Christian he would feel he had to come to church and give up skating.
The lad had no doubt that Jesus had healed him - but he wasn't going to change his lifestyle on the basis that alone.
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Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The job of a priest, at least in part, is to point people to Christ. In my experience it's easier to point people to Christ by redirecting their stated desires to him rather than running away with the misconception that I can 'be' Christ to them in an immediate sense.
I think it is unlikely that the agitated and confused, soon-to-be-bereaved father will get that, and possibly even less likely after your counter-intuitive opening gambit.
Others here have already said that "Why do you want a miracle" may come across as claiming more, rather than less, authority.
"Why do you think I can help you?" might be more accurate as a steer away from the priest. Albeit still rather blunt for the situation.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Here's a true story. I don't believe a word of it even if it is all true.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The job of a priest, at least in part, is to point people to Christ. In my experience it's easier to point people to Christ by redirecting their stated desires to him rather than running away with the misconception that I can 'be' Christ to them in an immediate sense.
I think it is unlikely that the agitated and confused, soon-to-be-bereaved father will get that, and possibly even less likely after your counter-intuitive opening gambit.
Others here have already said that "Why do you want a miracle" may come across as claiming more, rather than less, authority.
"Why do you think I can help you?" might be more accurate as a steer away from the priest. Albeit still rather blunt for the situation.
Fair enough. Someone else has suggested something along the lines of, "What shall I ask God to do?"
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet
We also have the problem of Judas. How could he have betrayed Jesus if he'd been present for any of the miracles? Obviously, the written accounts are one way of viewing what was happening and there are evidently others. Was Judas in the boat when Jesus walked on water?
How about the Roman solider in the garden at Jesus' arrest and his ear being healed. One would think the who troop of soldiers would be impressed by this. But some must have interpreted the occurrence differently. How is this and parallel things possible?
I don't see this as a problem at all. If anything, it justifies God's judgment of Judas and others, because of their high level of personal accountability. It doesn't follow that just because someone has seen a miracle, he will automatically believe. There is the hardness, pride and obduracy of the human heart to take into account, which causes some people to reject God, despite no end of overwhelming and compelling evidence.
It's the reality of evil working through human free will, I'm afraid.
Surely evidence which is truly overwhelming is by definition overwhelming?
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Ramarius - I don't particularly have a problem with what you're saying here. I've heard Mousethief posit something similar - all these monks and nuns praying very generalised prayers for the sick as part of their daily offices and so on ...
All I'm suggesting is that we can't always establish a clear cause-and-effect relationship between any of these things.
That's not to say I don't believe that God can't heal people and that he doesn't heal people ... but it doesn't seem to be that regular an occurrence.
The story about the skate-boarder with the poorly ankle begs as many questions as it apparently answers - but then, all of these things do, whether they take place at Lourdes, in a Greek monastery or in an evangelistic yoof gathering held by a charismatic evangelical church ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
There isn't any cause and effect relationship, is there? How can you have a cause which is supernatural? The two things are chalk and cheese.
For someone like me, who has one leg in, and one leg out, of Christianity, there is also something repellent about this talk of healing and miracles. It reminds me of a huckster's stall at a fairground, or two-headed coins, or a stacked deck of cards.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ramarius
Shipmate
# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There isn't any cause and effect relationship, is there? How can you have a cause which is supernatural? The two things are chalk and cheese.
Genuinely don't get that Q. Why can't you have a supernatural cause?
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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