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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: BBC Article on Medical Miracles
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There isn't any cause and effect relationship, is there? How can you have a cause which is supernatural? The two things are chalk and cheese.
Genuinely don't get that Q. Why can't you have a supernatural cause?
Well, what method are you going to use, in order to identify it?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Ramarius
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# 16551
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Ramarius:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There isn't any cause and effect relationship, is there? How can you have a cause which is supernatural? The two things are chalk and cheese.
Genuinely don't get that Q. Why can't you have a supernatural cause?
Well, what method are you going to use, in order to identify it?
Try this. We have identified that the universe operates in accordance with a set of laws (which are the basis of the scientific method.) If an event occurs which doesn't appear to follow these laws, then the cause could either be a highly unusual natural law which we have yet to understand, or one that transcends natural laws. You could define the latter as "supernatural."
So what might be the test of identifying a supernatural cause, as opposed to a currently unknown natural cause? A strong contender would be a cause that creates an effect that is *contrary* to the laws of nature as we understand them. If, for example, someone has been crucified certified dead, wrapped tightly in cloth and sealed in a tomb then comes back to life, we have a cause that meets the definition of "supernatural" in that it is clearly contrary to the laws of nature.
Have a mull and let me know what you reckon….
[B][/B]
Posts: 950 | From: Virtually anywhere | Registered: Jul 2011
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Malchus wasn't Roman and what judgement of Judas?
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Love wins
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet
We also have the problem of Judas. How could he have betrayed Jesus if he'd been present for any of the miracles? Obviously, the written accounts are one way of viewing what was happening and there are evidently others. Was Judas in the boat when Jesus walked on water?
How about the Roman solider in the garden at Jesus' arrest and his ear being healed. One would think the who troop of soldiers would be impressed by this. But some must have interpreted the occurrence differently. How is this and parallel things possible?
I don't see this as a problem at all. If anything, it justifies God's judgment of Judas and others, because of their high level of personal accountability. It doesn't follow that just because someone has seen a miracle, he will automatically believe. There is the hardness, pride and obduracy of the human heart to take into account, which causes some people to reject God, despite no end of overwhelming and compelling evidence.
It's the reality of evil working through human free will, I'm afraid.
Not so fast. The explanation begs the question: "seen a miracle". If you see something and it is interpreted as a miracle, then it isn't a miracle. If you see a miracle, and you don't interpret that it was one, then it wasn't. Which then calls into question the non-convincing nature of miracles at all. Jesus walking on water? Were there stones to stand on, or did he swim? Judas would have had to see something other than walking on water.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Ikkyu
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# 15207
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Posted
The elephant in the thread that keeps being mostly ignored despite some posters mentioning it, is this.
Why is this particular person healed and not many others?
Any post Shoah belief in an interventionist god has to explain this.
Why this heart attack and not millions of others.
What about Alzheimer patients like my father who
have been prayed for by many people and persist in not being healed?
There is no empirical evidence in support of faith healing beyond some sort of placebo effect,despite claims for "Overwhelming proof".
And if there was the god revealed would not be very pretty.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Someone else has suggested something along the lines of, "What shall I ask God to do?"
Yes, that is even better.
I have seen many of these desperate prayers in A&E departments, and not a single miracle, so my thoughts then turn to what one will then say if it doesn't work.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
How does seeing a true miracle, the pot shattered as it drops from your fingers reassemble, a rotting corpse revive, make you a healed, whole, redeemed, sane, reconciled, delivered, fearless person?
We weakly make weak narratives and declare them strong. Which is normal projection of the blind looking for a shadow of doubt, a hint of vision. We invoke the truth, the fact of God when there is no miraculous sign of Him whatsoever and after a while we remove the space between utter coincidences.
A couple of weeks ago I was sawing wood and my power saw caught fire. A friend had said that they had some wood they needed clearing from their backyard. So as my saw was dead, I went round and loaded four Passat loads. And they gave me a new, better power saw that they never use.
DESPITE myself an eyebrow rose. I'm ashamed to confess it. We are that superstitious. Meanwhile my friend's partner continues to die of MS.
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Love wins
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu
The elephant in the thread that keeps being mostly ignored despite some posters mentioning it, is this.
Why is this particular person healed and not many others?
Any post Shoah belief in an interventionist god has to explain this.
Why this heart attack and not millions of others. What about Alzheimer patients like my father who have been prayed for by many people and persist in not being healed?
There is no empirical evidence in support of faith healing beyond some sort of placebo effect,despite claims for "Overwhelming proof".
And if there was the god revealed would not be very pretty.
Actually the herd of elephants in the room is this: our faith in God is not - or should not be - built on God passing a "fairness test" that we set for Him. It is as if God is on probation all the time, and "I will only believe in you and trust you if you convince me that you have completed the tasks that I have set for you today".
That is not the way the sovereign God works.
I am not a Calvinist (at least in the predestination sense), but there are times when I feel quite a sympathy for the concern of that theology to acknowledge God's proper place in the scheme of things.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I thought that Ikkyu's point was that God appears to be arbitrary, if one accepts that there are healings.
OK, one can call arbitariness sovereignty, or whatever, if one wants. I don't see how that makes it more interesting.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sovereign love is ... obvious. Not a lottery. His Consciousness has been willing us on for a million years. 14 billion.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
The elephant in the thread that keeps being mostly ignored despite some posters mentioning it, is this.
Why is this particular person healed and not many others?
Any post Shoah belief in an interventionist god has to explain this.
Why this heart attack and not millions of others.
What about Alzheimer patients like my father who
have been prayed for by many people and persist in not being healed?
There is no empirical evidence in support of faith healing beyond some sort of placebo effect,despite claims for "Overwhelming proof".
And if there was the god revealed would not be very pretty.
I like some of these questions. The answer is that no one gets a miracle cure, at least not of the kind we see on a weekly or daily basis amongst faith healers, 'healing ministries' and the like. Despite the millions of claims, there is not one single verified account. God's love is apparent in other ways, but not in the occult circus shows.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Here's an interesting case.
I can think of no logical reason why I - or anyone - should just assume that the vague sceptical objection must be correct. It's almost as if the sceptic feels obliged to be sceptical, and therefore has to object for the sake of objecting.
To say that this definitely could not have been a miracle is absurd reasoning. Perhaps one could say - at a stretch - that it was perhaps not, and it was just incredible good luck, but that is a conclusion that is unproven. There is no logical reason why the sceptical assumption should be taken as the default position, other than within a commitment to philosophical naturalism ("we know a priori that these things cannot happen"), which is basically atheism.
To quote the article: "...doctors who treated him were plain baffled by his recovery." Were these doctors all ignorant fools? I think not.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Has anyone said that there definitely could not be miracles? I don't recollect that, and it would, ironically, be a non-skeptical response.
Miracles are possible, I would say. But they are usually described via anecdotes, and they seem arbitrary to me. Why would God work in arbitrary ways?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
Why would God work in arbitrary ways?
That is a question that arises as a natural result of the fact of God's infinite superiority to us, which inevitably entails that we cannot possibly understand - or demand to understand - God's workings down to the finest detail. What may seem arbitrary to us is not necessarily arbitrary to God. But then, of course, God is accused of injustice, but really the only people who can reasonably accuse God of that are the individuals concerned. I am certainly not going to allow someone else's personal experience of God to dictate my experience of Him.
It seems to be saying that "God is not allowed to do something for someone, unless He does it for everyone." In other words, the majority can effectively veto the work of God: "because God did not heal us, therefore don't expect Him to do anything for you!"
I don't buy that.
[ 14. March 2014, 10:06: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
EE, the case described in that newspaper article does not demonstrate or even implicate a miracle. The article, at least, is obviously full of medical nonsense.
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این نیز بگذرد
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Now why doesn't that response surprise me?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Referring to his improvement the first time he prayed to Newman, Dr Robert Banco, chief of spinal surgery at the New England Baptist Hospital in Boston, wrote: “Because of this persisting and severe stenosis, I have no medical explanation for why he was pain-free and for so long a time. The objective data, CT, myelogram, and MRI demonstrated that his pathology did not at all change, but his symptoms [pain] improved drastically.”
After the second healing, he told Sullivan that the recovery to his spine was so complete that the 71 year-old now had the lifting capacity of a 30 year-old. “With the tear in your dura mater, your condition should have been much worse,” he said. “I have no medical or scientific answer for you. If you want an answer, ask God.”
I guess this bio must refer to the surgeon in question (unless there were two spinal chief surgeons called Robert Banco at the same hospital at the same time).
"If you want an answer, ask God" comes about as near to saying "It's a miracle" as one would ever expect from a medical professional. For a sceptic to ignore this, and persist with his "good luck" thesis or "naturalism of the gaps" explanation, belies any claim to objectivity.
Oh wait....! Silly me! Dr Banco was awarded the 2013 Compassionate Doctor Award, so, yep that's the explanation! He was just being compassionate to Mr Sullivan and didn't want to hurt his religious feelings, so that's why he said what he did. Excellent explanation. No miracle then... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
EE wrote:
That is a question that arises as a natural result of the fact of God's infinite superiority to us, which inevitably entails that we cannot possibly understand - or demand to understand - God's workings down to the finest detail. What may seem arbitrary to us is not necessarily arbitrary to God.
This sounds like complete flim-flam to me. You might as well just say, I don't know. All your talk of 'natural result' and 'fact' and 'inevitably entails' just looks like window-dressing something which is empty, or maybe, 'It's true, because I say so'.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
God is like Jesus. If it looks like He isn't, it isn't Him. It's us projecting. That covers everything from the God of the Old Testament to random Cheshire 'miracles'. If God is other than as revealed in Jesus, that's His business. Nothing to do with us. If He really is a killer and really does do capricious miracles that disappear under any degree of scrutiny, again, that's His business. Nowt ter do wi' us.
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Love wins
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
This sounds like complete flim-flam to me. You might as well just say, I don't know. All your talk of 'natural result' and 'fact' and 'inevitably entails' just looks like window-dressing something which is empty, or maybe, 'It's true, because I say so'.
Yes, you are absolutely right, and I am terribly wrong.
A finite mind can, of course, totally and fully understand an infinite mind. Silly me for not realising that!!
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
This sounds like complete flim-flam to me. You might as well just say, I don't know. All your talk of 'natural result' and 'fact' and 'inevitably entails' just looks like window-dressing something which is empty, or maybe, 'It's true, because I say so'.
Yes, you are absolutely right, and I am terribly wrong.
A finite mind can, of course, totally and fully understand an infinite mind. Silly me for not realising that!!
Well, that misses my point completely. I think you're not even wrong.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Referring to his improvement the first time he prayed to Newman, Dr Robert Banco, chief of spinal surgery at the New England Baptist Hospital in Boston, wrote: “Because of this persisting and severe stenosis, I have no medical explanation for why he was pain-free and for so long a time. The objective data, CT, myelogram, and MRI demonstrated that his pathology did not at all change, but his symptoms [pain] improved drastically.”
After the second healing, he told Sullivan that the recovery to his spine was so complete that the 71 year-old now had the lifting capacity of a 30 year-old. “With the tear in your dura mater, your condition should have been much worse,” he said. “I have no medical or scientific answer for you. If you want an answer, ask God.”
I guess this bio must refer to the surgeon in question (unless there were two spinal chief surgeons called Robert Banco at the same hospital at the same time).
"If you want an answer, ask God" comes about as near to saying "It's a miracle" as one would ever expect from a medical professional. For a sceptic to ignore this, and persist with his "good luck" thesis or "naturalism of the gaps" explanation, belies any claim to objectivity.
Oh wait....! Silly me! Dr Banco was awarded the 2013 Compassionate Doctor Award, so, yep that's the explanation! He was just being compassionate to Mr Sullivan and didn't want to hurt his religious feelings, so that's why he said what he did. Excellent explanation. No miracle then...
No, based on the account, medically speaking there is certainly no miracle here. I would even go as far as to say that the account described is pretty unremarkable. I have seen many similar things myself in the absence of miraculous prayer, as well as the opposite in which symptoms inexplicably worsen without any objective evidence for why they should.
The physical signs (the objective data of the existence of the condition causing the patient's symptoms) were unchanged following prayer. The symptoms reportedly improved- i.e., the patient reported reduced pain. Medically speaking, that's all you can say about this case, though, unlike this person's doctors, I would be prepared to speculate on the most plausible reasons for the reported improvement.
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این نیز بگذرد
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yorick
Surely, if somebody gets inexplicably worse, that's Satan leaving his calling card. Well, it's as plausible as people getting better, thanks to God.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
Well, that misses my point completely. I think you're not even wrong.
Well, judging by your last two responses, I can see that we're not going to get anywhere arguing about it.
So we will just have to agree to disagree. Or whatever...
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
Surely, if somebody gets inexplicably worse, that's Satan leaving his calling card. Well, it's as plausible as people getting better, thanks to God.
If you hold to a theology of radical dualism, then maybe.
Mainstream Christianity does not.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Arguing? Didn't someone say something about that?
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Love wins
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
Going back to the OP for a minute.
Doing research on the power of prayer in the U.S. must be really difficult. How do you get a control group?
With the overwhelming majority believing in the power of prayer, pretty much everyone gets prayed for, in most cases by a lot of people. All research can deduce is that adding an extra layer of artificial prayer doesn't produce anything more than results “on the border of statistical significance”.
Indeed, a proper control group would have to come with an assurance that no-one was praying for them, which outside North Korea is going to be tough.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
In fact, it seems impossible to show that healing in response to prayer, takes place. One can of course, guess that this happens, or one can believe it, without evidence, but one cannot demonstrate it. (Anecdotes are not demonstrations).
I was reading about the black death recently, when up to 200 million people died in Europe. Presumably, many people were prayed for at that time, so I suppose for those who believe in healing via prayer, some people in the black death recovered because they were prayed for. But presumably, a lot of people who were prayed for did not recover. As I said earlier, this sounds arbitrary to me, but then who are we to question the infinite inscrutability of God?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
Going back to the OP for a minute.
Doing research on the power of prayer in the U.S. must be really difficult. How do you get a control group?
You have to persuade God to play ball with your experiment as well.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
As I said earlier, this sounds arbitrary to me, but then who are we to question the infinite inscrutability of God?
We are God's creatures - God's creation. Of course we have a right to question!
If God were so arbitrary as to choose some to heal then I would question her motives. But I don't believe God IS arbitrary at all, God treats us all equally imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Damn, must start putting *sarcasm alert*, when I say something sarcastic.
Who are we to question the infinite inscrutability of God? *sarcasm alert*
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Damn, must start putting *sarcasm alert*, when I say something sarcastic.
Who are we to question the infinite inscrutability of God? *sarcasm alert*
![[Smile]](smile.gif) No tone of voice here on the Ship, sadly.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
What also makes it difficult to tell is that whatever you might say sarcastically has likely been said seriously by someone else. The ship is diverse enough for Poe's law to operate.
(Which reflects the conditions for healthy debate also).
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
And in fact, a lot of sarcastic jokes rely on this - that is, using well-known ideas and sentences, but with an edge. But it's true that in print, it's difficult to tell one from t'other.
Well, at least we know that God will be able to distinguish them. (Hee hee hee).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
A finite mind can, of course, totally and fully understand an infinite mind.
That's what may be the most "miraculous" result of all. The workings of God are beyond mortal understanding, and yet the faithful are always able to recognize His miraculous action. Not only that, but they're always able to correctly attribute such miracles to the action of their preferred deity of choice, rather than some other supernatural actor. It's amazing!
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Croesos
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
A finite mind can, of course, totally and fully understand an infinite mind.
That's what may be the most "miraculous" result of all. The workings of God are beyond mortal understanding, and yet the faithful are always able to recognize His miraculous action. Not only that, but they're always able to correctly attribute such miracles to the action of their preferred deity of choice, rather than some other supernatural actor. It's amazing!
Well done for ignoring the words "totally and fully".
The workings of God are not completely beyond mortal understanding, because, of course, a finite mind can understand something.
But anyway, if you are right, then bye bye atheism and philosophical naturalism. Because if the finite human mind cannot understand God's ways at all, then what makes us think it can understand any other version of reality?
In fact, your view of reality is utterly incoherent. If our minds are just the product of our brains, which are the result of natural selection, which is itself mindless, then mind is an illusion.
If you want to talk about miracles, then the absolutely greatest miracle of the lot, which makes the resurrection of Jesus Christ look like child's play, is mindless nature blindly throwing up something called "objectively valid reason"!!
It's amazing!!! ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Although atheism does not imply any view of reality. Atheists are not all materialists or naturalists. For example, for a period, Bertrand Russell was a neutral monist; and I think there are atheists who are dualists.
And of course, science itself does not lead to any particular view of reality.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So is a cell.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That's what may be the most "miraculous" result of all. The workings of God are beyond mortal understanding, and yet the faithful are always able to recognize His miraculous action. Not only that, but they're always able to correctly attribute such miracles to the action of their preferred deity of choice, rather than some other supernatural actor. It's amazing!
You are being sarcastic I hope. Or I am faithless and hell bound*.
*can we add leather to that?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
From what I understand that BBC article is rather loaded. One of the studies they quote was theologically flawed with non Christians reading set prayers off cards. No faith was involve so why should it work ?.
There have actually been studies that have shown positive correlations between prayer and healing, but that doesn't necessarily prove a divine link. Its known that if sick people have better care and attention they recover better.
I trust skeptics as much as raving faith healers. Both are defending their paradigm and sometimes are prepared to bend the truth to do so.
I've seen enough to believe that healings do occur, but often less spectacularly than the Biblical accounts. I don't believe God intends to give any general proof to the masses via spectacular healings. Jesus remarked that the Father wanted to keep things hidden from the wise, but not the ordinary folk that came to him. Its not likely to have changed.
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
Is there any study comparing results between those being prayed for and those for whom spells are cast?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Is there any study comparing results between those being prayed for and those for whom spells are cast?
That assumes there's a difference between the two beyond "spells are what I call the other guy's prayers". In what sense are the more flamboyant faith healers (e.g. John Hagee) not casting spells?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
But human that it is, it cannot be alien to you Croesos.
Faithful analytical reasoning will always be a minority activity, except, perhaps, on this site.
It is in me as I'm overwhelmed by my experience, including six decades of fundamentalism, my feelings, my shame and have little analytical capacity.
As you will know, we are up against experiential reasoning and all that goes with that.
It cannot be argued with.
Only embraced.
Loved.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
From what I understand that BBC article is rather loaded. One of the studies they quote was theologically flawed with non Christians reading set prayers off cards. No faith was involve so why should it work ?.
There have actually been studies that have shown positive correlations between prayer and healing, but that doesn't necessarily prove a divine link. Its known that if sick people have better care and attention they recover better.
I trust skeptics as much as raving faith healers. Both are defending their paradigm and sometimes are prepared to bend the truth to do so.
I've seen enough to believe that healings do occur, but often less spectacularly than the Biblical accounts. I don't believe God intends to give any general proof to the masses via spectacular healings. Jesus remarked that the Father wanted to keep things hidden from the wise, but not the ordinary folk that came to him. Its not likely to have changed.
I think the point is that whether there are miracle healings or not - is unknowable. Yes, you can believe it, but there is no way to demonstrate it. NB., anecdotes are not demonstrations.
Hence there is no way to distinguish two sets of circumstance - one, where there are healings; and second, where there aren't. Both interpretations fit the data.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's like YEC. God heals but wipes away all traces as if He hadn't to test our faith. All you've got to do is believe in lots and lost of supernatural stuff for which there is no evidence whatsoever that explains that.
See? All you need is faith.
Where analytical Christians get the faith of God from I don't know.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Whichever side of the argument you're on, anyone who says "there can be no other reason/explanation" is merely repeating the arrogant (or despairing) assertion that some things are not permitted to be true {Salman Rushdie's phrase, originally, I think).
[ 20. March 2014, 16:27: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, that is just epistemic arrogance. We simply don't know, and probably, we cannot know. Of course, you can have faith over it, which is basically a guess or a wish.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So it's 50:50 then? Perfectly balanced? Despite there being no forensic, statistically significant, scientific, analytical evidence whatsoever that God intervenes in the laws of physics since shortly after He walked the Earth, He does or doesn't?
I'm going to have to forego the pleasure of a Christian men's dinner for two reason. One is that I'm uncomfortable with that - although the food and company were great - and two is that the narrative of the speaker caused me to have to work even harder than usual to deconstruct to any truth in it for me. Luckily his kindness did show. The next speaker is Dave Bell – Author: ‘Mud in the Eye’ & ‘Life out Loud’ - endorsed by Rick Warren.
I'm going to be completely alone in a room of a hundred people. It's been four hundred before, but I'm not going to pay for that privilege.
I'll go to the home of a friend with MS whose nurse wife believes that may be they should have PAID to go to Benny Hinn when he came to Leicester by the power of the Holy Spirit. And not his private Gulfstream of course.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think saying that it's 50 50 is being too specific, isn't it? We simply have no method whereby we could judge whether or not there are supernatural interventions.
I suppose plenty of atheists will say, OK, there is no evidence, therefore in effect, it doesn't happen. But then it depends on whether you have a gnostic atheist or an agnostic one - i.e. I know there is no God, as opposed to I don't know that, but I strongly suspect there isn't.
But it reminds me of the old saw about religion decaying - it's not because of hostility, but indifference. I would think that most people are not interested in miracles.
Well, they are interesting if you are thinking about what the supernatural is, and how one might develop a method to detect/describe it.
I suppose if all the cancer patients in London got better at 4pm today, one would have to think about that. But if 10% get better gradually with no treatment, what then?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I would think that most people are not interested in miracles.
Nonsense. If all the cancer patients in London were cured at 4pm today, it would be the greatest sensation in history and the entire world would be talking of nothing else. Indeed, it would take a very much lesser proven* miracle than that to do the job. I reckon the course of human history would be irrevocably and quite fundamentally altered.**
Many atheists claim that they would surrender their disbelief in gods if just one little miracle were unequivocally proven to happen. I include myself in that group, though I believe extremely strongly that no such thing has ever or will ever happen.
Obviously, it is in our essential nature to be interested in the supernatural and miraculous; we are biologically hard wired so to be. This is, of course, the chief reason why religion still has currency in the world.
* scientifically proven, preferably, though most of us would probably be satisfied with a scientifically inexplicable but reliably documented mass curing of cancer, or some such.
** I often toy with this concept for the plot of a novel, though I'm sure it's been done.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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