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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: What's going on in Ukraine?
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chill:
... Absolutely no argument here which is why you cannot discount the ethnically Russian Ukrainians as not having any legitimate voice in the fate of their region or nation. Which was the point I was responding to and which is a view which I think is faulty. I was making the point that such logic could be applied backwards add infinitum.
Sorry if that was not clear.
Chaz
Except the party that has put themselves in the front in Crimea only got 4% in a local election awhile back.
And the idea that Russian speaking Ukrainians, or Ukrainians in the rest of the country for that matter, all speak with one voice is not backed by reality on the ground as reported by social media.
There is a strong sense that the Russians might have overestimated local sentiment in this. Believing their own propaganda. I believe its Merkel's people who indicated earlier today that Putin seems to be living in a different reality, so the quote went.
Next few days will be interesting.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I'm getting a little channelling of "remember the Alamo" just now. Who has controlled Crimea in the last 100 years anyway?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
The Russians seem surprised the Ukrainians don't love them.
Well to be fair they are there to help
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Just like we (I'm a UK citizen)have been helping the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, lets hope they do not expend as much ammunition safeguarding their human rights as we have in those theatres. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Originally posted by Chill:
...Except the party that has put themselves in the front in Crimea only got 4% in a local election awhile back.
Well democracy has dissolved in face of force on all sides the protests no less used force to compel change. Its a total mess and there are very ugly elements on all sides here. Of course there will be a variety of view in every ethnic and cultural group. There is a lot of spin on both sides here and lets face it Russia would be there if there was only one Russian postman in the whole Crimea strategically they cannot allow control of the Ukraine and especially Crimea to be lost. Its like Canada signing up for integration into The Russian federation, not something that would be tolerable for the US no matter who the fuck voted for it. The west knows this and is using it as a leaver in a wider strategic game. In which I must add Russia, with its strategic alliances and trade links in south America, is also playing aggressively and be hind them is the PRC.
[code... and see below]
[ 03. March 2014, 20:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Chill, we try not to be grammar nazis but it seems as if some of your posts have missing words and in others the wrong words (e.g. leaver for lever above), sometimes to the point of sentences being nigh incomprehensible.
This is a shame as you have some interesting things to say, which people may miss if they find comprehension hard going.
If you could take some time to check what you've written (or dictated? I personally struggle with making Dragon Naturally Speaking write what I want it to say) it would be great.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/
If you could take some time to check what you've written (or dictated? I personally struggle with making Dragon Naturally Speaking write what I want it to say) it would be great.
/hosting
I am very sorry. I am profoundly dyslexic and struggle with word transposition in my spelling checks. When presented with a list of words I can often misidentify the wrong one. I also lost my punctuation on the last post. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) I am letting my thoughts run ahead of the necessary level of intelligibility. I will take longer to proof read. I spend a lot of time reading here but don't post too much because it is hard work for me. Apologies. Thanks for taking the trouble to weed out my meaning and for being nice about how you told me I was getting hard to follow.
Chaz
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Clearly the thing to do is to let Russia annex Crimea, ink a deal at Malta, and proclaim we have achieved peace in our time.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
There is a strong sense that the Russians might have overestimated local sentiment in this. Believing their own propaganda.
Partition of Ukraine, is not then likely to be bloodless. It may lead to a long term thorn in Russia’s side. Either way it will cause tension between Russia and the EU. The EU is strategically tied to the U.S. by Nato. It is, however, energy dependent on Russia. As we scramble for control of diminishing resources, I suspect that this is no longer a state of affairs which pleases Washington. Germany is tied to this pro-Russian energy policy by Nord-stream. conversely France is building economic and strategic ties in the North Africa and the Middle East. France is not tied to Russian energy. Why do you imagine France and UK (until they lost the vote) were so keen to go adventuring in Syria? Could it have had anything to do with the natural gas pipeline rejected by Assad? See this article http://tinyurl.com/oqa8p83 This pipeline would have run through Syria form Qatari gas fields to turkey making it a possible alternate energy hub for Europe. It would have broken Russia's energy strangle hold on much of the EU. The UK has a broad energy mix anyway and is heading down the Fracing root like the U.S. to further increase self-sufficiency. I think the US would like to see the Turkish model supersede the Russo-German one. Now this situation in Ukraine can only serve to destabilise that relationship between Germany and Russia. Germany is thus forced into a corner. It has to side with EU partners. The Scandinavians, Fins, Estonians and Polish are understandably troubled by this show of force from Russia and its meddling in Ukrainian affairs. Germany is between a rock and a hard place. So its bad for Russian and bad for Russian EU relations.
On the other hand if partition works Putin could come out on top. He could seize a good portion of the strategic and economic wealth. He would then have chopped of a western Ukrainian Rump and dumped all the bad debt there. Which would leave the separatist Ukrainians impoverished and up to their eyes in short term debt. He would still have his hand firmly on the gas tap and could use Nord-Stream to cut Western Ukraine out of the loop. Whilst maintaining a frosty but lucrative trade with the EU.
So the EU would be looking at a real problem case on its boarders and Ukraine would be looking to be in those boarders. Ukraine would come with a strong far right protest movement already radicalised and hungry for power. I’m not sure how good that would be. http://tinyurl.com/p97xpoz The Right Wing are admittedly working alongside other more moderate elements but it still has me worried. Ukraine is on its knees finically and would be in danger of default. Both Austrian and Hungarian banks are exposed to Ukrainian debt which could ripple through a still fragile EU economy. So it would be bail out time. In comes the IMF and goodbye Ukrainian self-determination anyway.
You have to ask yourself Qui Bono? It’s not the Ukraine; it’s not Europe who will most likely end up footing the bill for Russia’s economic strangulation of the Ukraine. It could be either the U.S. or Russia, who come out on top. This is dependent on the level and duration of the shit storm and how much of the east Putin can get his hands on. The worse things get the better this will play for the U.S. and the more it will undermine Russian interests. If it turns out to be a bloodless annexation of minimally Crimea (maybe the ethnically Russian east as well) then Putin will once again have fallen into a barrel of Cocks and come out sucking his thumb. We will see.
Chaz
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
This link from from Pravda tells it as Putin sees it.
quote:
Vladimir Putin said that Russia was acting solely in the interests of the Russian-speaking population of the Crimea to defend the people against unabated ultranationalist threat.
From what I understand, this has a kernel of truth to it, but how big a kernel?
I suspect Russia finds some comments about not interfering and invading Ukraine a little rich after Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I suspect Russia finds some comments about not interfering and invading Ukraine a little rich after Iraq and Afghanistan.
Well it is a bit hard to swallow when they go on about illegal intervention in other countries, given the history.
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
This link from from Pravda tells it as Putin sees it.
quote:
Vladimir Putin said that Russia was acting solely in the interests of the Russian-speaking population of the Crimea to defend the people against unabated ultranationalist threat.
From what I understand, this has a kernel of truth to it, but how big a kernel?
If by "ultranationalist" you mean "Ukraine is an independent, sovereign nation, and we don't want Russia telling us what to do."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
From what I understand, this has a kernel of truth to it, but how big a kernel?
There is a kernel.
As University of Ottawa political scientist Ivan Katchanovski writes: “The far right in Ukraine has now achieved the level of representation and influence that is unparalleled in Europe. A member of Svoboda, a name adopted by the Social-National Party in 2004, became the Minister of Defense. Svoboda members also control the prosecutor general office, the deputy prime minister position and the ministries of ecology and agriculture. The paramilitary right sector has de facto power at least in some Western Ukrainian regions, such as the Rivne and Volyn Regions. Anriy Parubiy, the commander of the “Maidan self-defense,” has been appointed the head of the National Security and Defense Council, and [Dmitro] Yarosh, the leader of Right Sector, is expected to become his deputy.”
I think they misspelled Andriy Parubiy in the link which is here. Yarosh recently made overtures to Umarov. He is quite scary. Aside from these folks, the new government is fielding a replacement team of oligarchs in the mold of Tymoshenko. These are all the good guys.
quote:
I suspect Russia finds some comments about not interfering and invading Ukraine a little rich after Iraq and Afghanistan.
Whether they find it ironic or not, it certainly has undercut the moral authority of the West to confront aggression. Certainly the West is a house divided between "Fuck the EU" Nuland, Germany, UK/France, Obama, "Bomb em Back to the Stone Ages" McCain, and all the various flavors of opinion in between these groups. If the West is really serious, it is going to have to parlay the threat of military action and real force. Sanctions, tossing them out of the G8, etc. are not going to scare them. They see Iran still standing, and unlike us, economic privation may not scare the complete and utter crap out of them like it would us.
It did seem ironic that Netanyahu was at the White House today with all this talk of contravening international law, occupying land with military force, ignoring world opinion, etc. I don't think anyone really recognized this might be ironic, but as with the whole situation; the issue isn't really what's being done, but who is doing it and whose agenda it serves.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chill:
I am letting my thoughts run ahead of the necessary level of intelligibility. I will take longer to proof read. I spend a lot of time reading here but don't post too much because it is hard work for me.
Thank you, and thank you for putting in that effort - in terms of both form and content.
Eutychus
Purgatory host
[ 04. March 2014, 05:21: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
This link from from Pravda tells it as Putin sees it.
quote:
Vladimir Putin said that Russia was acting solely in the interests of the Russian-speaking population of the Crimea to defend the people against unabated ultranationalist threat.
From what I understand, this has a kernel of truth to it, but how big a kernel?
If by "ultranationalist" you mean "Ukraine is an independent, sovereign nation, and we don't want Russia telling us what to do."
No the far right is defiantly part of the equation in the Ukraine. Not that it is the whole story. There are some very unsavoury elements on both sides of this thing.
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Putin has so far handled things very well, but I would think he is nervous about actual fighting starting. Sure, Russian troops will squash any Ukrainian armed resistance, but how about the possibility of various armed groups then continuing the resistance?
What does Russia do then? Completely wipe them out? Will the Tatars simply go quiet and do what they are told?
Well, they might, but unpredictability comes to mind.
I suppose another alternative is thousands of refugees streaming westwards away from the Russian occupation.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It was interesting today, as I did a bit of potted browsing on this issue, to read about the notion of "Little Russia".
Equating Ukraine with this term is now, as Wikipedia explains (and I have no reason to doubt its veracity on this particular point), a highly insulting anachronism as far as Ukrainians are concerned. But I could well believe that on the Russian side there continue to be people who see Ukrainians as a slightly exotic and peculiar variety of Russians, not as a separate nation.
Or at least use that kind of thought and rhetoric when it suits them. Which would probably be now, for example.
It isn't going to help matters.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Putin has so far handled things very well, but.....
Maybe in his own mind. I was watching the UN Security Council yesterday and the Russian guy was coming across as something out of a 1970's comedy sketch.
I have a paper request.
Yes, but your troops were there 2 days before that paper was signed.
I have a paper request.
Yes, but the man making the request had abandoned the presidency 5 days before.
There are Nazis involved.
The Far Right is there but they are not in charge.
Well maybe not Nazis but they are the ones leading the government. Anyways, I have a paper request.
What about that $Billion palace?
Lies.
[ 04. March 2014, 11:30: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Og
You say, 'maybe in his own mind', about Putin. Well, the Russian troops in control in Crimea are not just in his mind, are they?
He appears to be soft-pedaling now, saying that troops will not move into Eastern Ukraine.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose another alternative is thousands of refugees streaming westwards away from the Russian occupation.
AKA ethnic cleansing.
quote:
Originally posted by Chill:
No the far right is defiantly part of the equation in the Ukraine. Not that it is the whole story. There are some very unsavoury elements on both sides of this thing.
No doubt. But only one side of this thing invaded a sovereign nation.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You say, 'maybe in his own mind', about Putin. Well, the Russian troops in control in Crimea are not just in his mind, are they?
Og said "maybe in his own mind" to the comment "Putin has so far handled this well," not "there are no Russian troops in Ukraine." Your quote here is a complete and utter non sequitur.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
mousethief
I don't see how it's a non sequitur. Putin has efficiently moved troops into Crimea, with hardly a shot fired. That to me suggests that his aims have been successfully met, and not just in his own mind, but on the ground.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Thank you, and thank you for putting in that effort - in terms of both form and content.
Thanks Eutychus
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
…but as with the whole situation; the issue isn't really what's being done, but who is doing it and whose agenda it serves.
I agree Alt Wally it is all about whose agenda is served.
Don’t get me wrong given the ever increasing gap between the rich and poor there is much to protest against in the Ukraine. There has been economic disaster, outside meddling and a merry-go-round of internal corruption. I would feel like marching to independence square myself. I doubt the coup will garner real change sadly. Just like the diggers and levellers in Cromwell’s time those voices will be silenced.
I notice that Arseniy Yatsenyuk or ‘Yats’ the new prime minster is a former central banker. Whist it also seems that ‘Ukrainian oligarchs’ are being courted and brought in to key positions. It looks like the same old revolving door for the neoliberal elite. (those who espouse the economic philosophy) This does not bode well for real change. It just looks like Neoliberal regime change from my perspective. I think the real change that protesters were hoping for is still far from realization.
Not that Russia offers anything different on that score. Russia is a corporatized state; govern by an oligarchical neoliberalism and its military industrial complex. Just like us really. The main difference being that they have shades of Orwell’s 1984, whilst we live in the shadow of Huxley’s brave new world. So if this all settles down then the best case scenario for Ukrainians seems to be ‘Same shit different day.’ Oh dear. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
However I have some caveats. The position of the far right has been strengthened and radicalised. This is truly worrying and dangerous. Although, it must be said, it is a not uncommon response to instability and economic privation. My analyse of the situation assumes that this trend will not lead to the rise of the Ukraine as a significant fascist power in central Europe. On balance, I think this is correct, not least, because Russia would not tolerate it. That said the economic and social conditions are an ideal hot bed for the rise of the right. It is a political cancer that can spread fast.
My second caveat is this:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Sure, Russian troops will squash any Ukrainian armed resistance, but how about the possibility of various armed groups then continuing the resistance?
The annexation of Crimea is brinkmanship of the highest order. A miscalculation could lead to armed conflict. I think neither side wants this to happen but it could go pear-shaped. Said conflict would undoubtedly be won by Russia but could spawn the kind of separatist guerrilla action that has plagued them in the caucuses.
This would be bad for the strategic interests of the EU and Russia alike. It would also be very bad for the Ukraine of course. This would, however, serve U.S. inserts by destabilising a key strategic location for Russia. It may help to divert Russia from other theatres of proxy conflict and strategic import. It would certainly provide political capital for a policy of isolation towards Moscow. We have already heard such rhetoric being used.
Here is why I don’t think this is likely to happen. The west has no stomach overt or even covert action in the Ukraine. It would risk serious escalation of tensions. It would I think be to big a risk. I am also not convinced the will is there in the Ukraine for that level of conflict with Russia. Much of this has been caused by poor government, economic mismanagement and internal corruption solve those legitimate problems and much of the tension will dissipate. Furthermore Russia has other more radical tools at her disposal. Putin can still crush the Ukraine with economic and energy related tactics if he wishes to. Why waste bullets shooting someone you can freeze and starve to death in the snow?
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Putin has so far handled things very well, but.....
Maybe in his own mind.
Putin is an able statesman. He may not be much of a decent human being. To be frank most of our leaders aren’t. Diplomatically speaking I think he is making a good job of a bad situation. He had no option but to secure Russia’s strategic assets in the Crimea. He is playing the humanitarian card in a near mirror image of western justifications for our own interventionist actions. I don’t think he is going to annex the east unless there is an internal escalation. He is showing force but also restraint. He is critical of Mr Yanukovych regime and has called for reform. He is questioning the democratic legitimacy of an ‘unconstitutional coup’. I think he has it pegged about right given his options.
The U.S. is also playing a clever diplomatic game, This coup has been fomented and assisted by U.S. support. This is clearly payback for the Snowdon affair and the Russian/Iranian diplomatic triumph over Syria. It has been well executed. Russia has used economic coercion to make the Ukraine toe the line. The U.S. has capitalised on the disaffection this has caused. I think there has been a bit to much stick and not enough carrot from Russia. My criticism is not how Putin has handled the crisis thus far. It is why he allowed the conditions to germinate which gave rise to the crisis.
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I think you're right that annexation won't happen. It doesn't have to, and will be easier if it's just control.
I'm not sure what you mean by US support and Snowden. The US appears to have been caught off guard. Unless you are thinking that the US likes Ukraine not to be linking up with the EU.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Not really much of a coup when the guy just packs up and leaves.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I think you're right that annexation won't happen. It doesn't have to, and will be easier if it's just control.
I'm not sure what you mean by US support and Snowden. The US appears to have been caught off guard. Unless you are thinking that the US likes Ukraine not to be linking up with the EU.
I think Chill means that the US helped foment the disaffection in Kiev and elsewhere, which led to the coup/revolution, whatever you call it.
If this is correct, then you can bet your boots that US military intelligence would have calculated the Russian responses, and surely would have planned for a Crimea takeover.
If you are playing a long game, you could even argue that this is all bad for Putin, as the Crimea take-over will alienate many other countries, and obviously Ukraine itself, will screw with the Russian economy, and will make Europe look for other energy supplies. How does Putin reply to that?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Chill:
No the far right is defiantly part of the equation in the Ukraine. Not that it is the whole story. There are some very unsavoury elements on both sides of this thing.
No doubt. But only one side of this thing invaded a sovereign nation.
It depends on what you mean by side MT. Do you count Washington who have backed and helped to ferment this coup as a side? They have invaded plenty of sovereign nations. Just not the this one. It also depends on who is the legitimate government. Over which there is credible dispute.
In the end its all part of a much bigger strategic game. A game in which the Ukraine is just one piece among many. It is only the appearance of rectitude which matters. The reality of it has no relevance to the players.(US/Nato hegemony and the emerging power of the bric nations)
Chaz
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Not really much of a coup when the guy just packs up and leaves.
It's what James II did, but he then turned up a few months later in Ireland. That war resonates to this day.
Quetzalcoatl are you that confident that either Putin or Kerry are really sufficiently in control of things happening beyond the direct reach of their own hands to be subtly plotting outcomes like a game of chess, rather than grabbing opportunities and hoping for the best?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Given how weak Obama was looking until late yesterday, I kinda doubt this was a planned thing.
And given what Putin said today, I don't think he's really planned it all through either.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chill:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Chill:
No the far right is defiantly part of the equation in the Ukraine. Not that it is the whole story. There are some very unsavoury elements on both sides of this thing.
No doubt. But only one side of this thing invaded a sovereign nation.
It depends on what you mean by side MT. Do you count Washington who have backed and helped to ferment this coup as a side?
Evidence?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
mousethief
I don't see how it's a non sequitur. Putin has efficiently moved troops into Crimea, with hardly a shot fired. That to me suggests that his aims have been successfully met, and not just in his own mind, but on the ground.
I see, we are disagreeing about the meaning of "well." I was thinking "in accord with international law and common human morality." Clearly you weren't.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Why did the EU and USA try to force Ukraine into only allying itself to the West? i.e. and precipitating revolt in the first place?
quote:
above article
look at it through Moscow’s eyes. Since the Clinton administration in the 1990s, the U.S.-led West has been on a steady march toward post-Soviet Russia, began with the expansion of NATO in the 1990s under Clinton. Bush then further expanded NATO all the way to Russia’s borders. Then came the funding of what are euphemistically called NGOs, but they are political action groups, funded by the West, operating inside Russia. Then came the decision to build missile defense installations along Russia’s borders, allegedly against Iran, a country which has neither nuclear weapons nor any missiles to deliver them with. Then comes American military outpost in the former Soviet republic of Georgia, which led to the war of 2008, and now the West is at the gates of Ukraine. So, that’s the picture as Moscow sees it. And it’s rational. It’s reasonable. It’s hard to deny.
The same article quotes the tape of USA officials suggesting they were picking the successor president. I posted about this before in this thread. Mousethief might want to have a read.
[ 04. March 2014, 23:17: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I'm not sure what you mean by US support and Snowden. The US appears to have been caught off guard. Unless you are thinking that the US likes Ukraine not to be linking up with the EU.
Sorry I'm trying to say it is clear from the leaked tapes that U.S. diplomats had a supportive role in helping the opposition. (Allow me to respond to MT at the same time)
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Evidence?
It’s further up the thread but hear it is again.
quote:
Voice thought to be Pyatt's: I think we're in play....I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what Yanukovych is calculating on all this.
Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.
Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?
BBC transcript with analyse here http://tinyurl.com/jwh5g9a
Revolutions rarely get off the ground without substantial external help. This is what we know has gone on. Don’t get me wrong I don’t think the U.S. has created this state of affairs. They have just capitalised on existing tensions. Here we have a phone conversation showing clear diplomatic assistance advice and close working relationships to the opposition from the U.S.a foreign power.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Unless you are thinking that the US likes Ukraine not to be linking up with the EU.
American frustration with the EU was because they wanted things to move faster. They were annoyed that the EU was not being proactive enough in its support for the opposition. The EU had a much longer term and less confrontational vision for Ukraine. The U.S. wanted to strike whilst the iron was hot. That is the context of the Fuck the EU comment, hence the decision to use the UN as a way of establishing legitimacy.
quote:
Nuland: OK. He's now gotten both Serry and [UN Secretary General] Ban Ki-moon to agree that Serry could come in Monday or Tuesday. So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing and to have the UN help glue it and, you know, Fuck the EU.
So no I think the U.S. have used tensions in the Ukraine to put Russia on the diplomatic back foot. I think they have been a significant catalyst. The U.S. have been on the back foot diplomatically over the Snowden affair, and over Syria. Russia and America are currently fighting a proxy war in Syria through their allies. (Syria is a whole different thread but it is not irrelevant to current events.) So this is just another round in the global pissing contest.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
If you are playing a long game, you could even argue that this is all bad for Putin, as the Crimea take-over will alienate many other countries, and obviously Ukraine itself, will screw with the Russian economy, and will make Europe look for other energy supplies. How does Putin reply to that?
That is princely what I think is happening. The U.S. is trying to drive a wedge between Russia and the EU which is a house divide on this issue. Germany has strong interests in maintaining the status quo as Russia’s gas middle man in Europe. I also think they have an authentic vision regarding the importance of the East for the EU. I think that the US would like to see a break from EU energy dependency on Russia. I suspect some of Germans EU partners agree with this. This situation might help with that long-term goal. One alternative energy supply option for Europe is a major factor in Syria. If Qatar and Turkey come out on top they will want a pro- pipeline regime. They need Syria for the proposed Turkey/Qatar pipeline. Assad refused to allow due to its economic impact on his Allie Russia. This would make Turkey an alternative energy hub for Europe rivalling Russia. Could this be why France and the UK are so keen on the Syrian opposition? Personally I think so. There are lots of other agendas at work in Syria as well this is just a small part of that story.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Quetzalcoatl are you that confident that either Putin or Kerry are really sufficiently in control of things happening beyond the direct reach of their own hands to be subtly plotting outcomes like a game of chess, rather than grabbing opportunities and hoping for the best?
Forgive me for answering this as it is not directed at me but. I would say no, not individually. However they are probably in the loop. I would say especially in Putin’s case with his intelligence background. They represent the visible face of much bigger strategic interests. This includes Intelligence agencies military and diplomatic advisors, corporate and financial interest. They all operate within a wider strategic power blocks. They often have complex and differing agendas. None the less I think strategic planning is common and often effective in perusing goals and mutual agendas. A fluid and responsive approach must be taken given the variables at play. So in this case, I would guess that the US planned to exploit growing tensions in the Ukraine whilst Russia and probably the EU were caught on the hop. Russia, ultimately, holds most of the cards regarding the Ukraine.
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Not really much of a coup when the guy just packs up and leaves.
Well people who don't tend to be dead or locked up after the coup. Ask Muhammad Morsi.
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Given how weak Obama was looking until late yesterday, I kinda doubt this was a planned thing.
And given what Putin said today, I don't think he's really planned it all through either.
I agree regarding Putin, it is damage control. That said he is doing very well (diplomatically) and may yet come out ahead. As to Obama, he was probably in the loop given the leaked diplomatic phone call. The EU is a house divided on this issue. I don’t think America is looking to weak on this. No one seriously expects them to send in the marines. They now have good ground for a condemnatory stance towards the Kremlin, and lots of support. They have helped to exacerbate a strategic headache for Russia. We will see how it all plays out.
Chaz
[code]
[ 05. March 2014, 09:08: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I'm new to this thread so sorry if I'm repeating something already said.
Why is it that France, Germany, Japan, the UK, and the US, etc., no longer consider each other military rivals (albeit they are still economic rivals, even though some of them are in the EU), but Russia still considers itself a military rival of the US and EU?
In International Politics class, we learned that the international political theory called "realism" predicts that nation-states will be heartless and untrustworthy with each other while promoting their interests and jostling for hegemony. Alliances are only a matter of convenience, and enduring alliances only hold together against a common threat. NATO only worked because the European powers had lost most of their colonies, were severely weakened after World War II, and were threatened by Soviet expansionism.
There are other theories, such as liberalism (trade links countries together to make war less desirable, and liberal democracies tend not to fight each other, so there should be global free trade and all countries should be liberal democracies).
Obviously, Putin seems to be acting like a realist would predict. Would Russia act this way regardless of who was in power? Why is it in Russia's interest to be the military adversary of NATO and the EU? Why can't Russia just join NATO and, if it isn't democratic enough, closely align itself with the EU, along with the other former Soviet states? How are Russian interests mutually exclusive with the interests of the US and the EU?
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
May I ask a question?
I understand that Putin is trying to 'protect' the Russian speaking people in Ukraine. What exactly does that mean? Are these people all Russian citizens living in Ukraine, a foreign country, and therefore need protection?
I just wonder whether the fact they are merely described as Russian speaking suggests a broader term, a broader identity. If so, that worries me slightly because there must be millions of Russian speaking people across the countries of the former Soviet Union, some of which are now EU countries.
Does Putin have one eye on these people too? After Crimea, Ukraine, after Ukraine, Estonia, other countries?
If Putin is trying to protect people who are basically Russian by nationality, that's one thing; but if he feels he 'owns' anyone who speaks Russian in a former Soviet republic, that might be a worry? Don't you think?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Chill, just as a matter of interest, do you think any of the Bilderberg Group, Opus Dei, the Freemasons or the Elders of Zion have a significant role in this crisis?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
May I ask a question?
I understand that Putin is trying to 'protect' the Russian speaking people in Ukraine. What exactly does that mean? Are these people all Russian citizens living in Ukraine, a foreign country, and therefore need protection?
I just wonder whether the fact they are merely described as Russian speaking suggests a broader term, a broader identity. If so, that worries me slightly because there must be millions of Russian speaking people across the countries of the former Soviet Union, some of which are now EU countries.
Does Putin have one eye on these people too? After Crimea, Ukraine, after Ukraine, Estonia, other countries?
If Putin is trying to protect people who are basically Russian by nationality, that's one thing; but if he feels he 'owns' anyone who speaks Russian in a former Soviet republic, that might be a worry? Don't you think?
Mudfrog, I think what underlies this is that irrespective of a tradition of a system of internal passports, during the centuries of the Russian Empire and then the USSR, people have flowed fairly freely around the great plains of the eastern borderlands. Like the Balkans under Turkish rule, people and identities are jumbled up. Not only are there people with different identities living alongside each other, but there are people whose identities are themselves a bit fluid.
I'm English but I've got some Scottish ancestors. I've got quite close relatives who would regard themselves as Scots who've got some English ancestors. Most people in the British Isles are in much the same position as regards at least two of the identities within these islands. Until this year, that's been largely sentiment, something that hasn't mattered much.
To put it another way, we all know that a border runs across Ireland. We also know that not everyone on one side is Catholic and Republican, and not everyone on the other is Protestant and Unionist.
It's only about twenty years since it's mattered very much whether you thought you were Russian, Ukrainian or a bit of both. In that context, whether your natural, preferred, language is Russian or Ukrainian is something that might help you decide which, when push comes to shove, you actually are.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Chill, just as a matter of interest, do you think any of the Bilderberg Group, Opus Dei, the Freemasons or the Elders of Zion have a significant role in this crisis?
I'm not Chill, but I'm curious as to what leads you to ask that question.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I'm new to this thread so sorry if I'm repeating something already said.
Why is it that France, Germany, Japan, the UK, and the US, etc., no longer consider each other military rivals (albeit they are still economic rivals, even though some of them are in the EU), but Russia still considers itself a military rival of the US and EU?
In International Politics class, we learned that the international political theory called "realism" predicts that nation-states will be heartless and untrustworthy with each other while promoting their interests and jostling for hegemony. Alliances are only a matter of convenience, and enduring alliances only hold together against a common threat. NATO only worked because the European powers had lost most of their colonies, were severely weakened after World War II, and were threatened by Soviet expansionism.
There are other theories, such as liberalism (trade links countries together to make war less desirable, and liberal democracies tend not to fight each other, so there should be global free trade and all countries should be liberal democracies).
Obviously, Putin seems to be acting like a realist would predict. Would Russia act this way regardless of who was in power? Why is it in Russia's interest to be the military adversary of NATO and the EU? Why can't Russia just join NATO and, if it isn't democratic enough, closely align itself with the EU, along with the other former Soviet states? How are Russian interests mutually exclusive with the interests of the US and the EU?
One thing I learned 40 years ago, and maybe is now considered out of date, is that in Russia there have long been pro-Western liberal views, but also what used to be called Slavophilism, or the Slavic idea, which for Russians means that basically Russia has its own destiny, and its own 'soul', and should be very careful about Western interests contaminating Russia.
I suppose this also boils down to nationalism.
You can also look at this the other way round and point out that Russia probably feels threatened by the approach of NATO and the EU, which gets closer and closer to Moscow. Ukraine has become the disputed area, as it is adjacent to Russia, and Putin does not want the EU right next door.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
... You can also look at this the other way round and point out that Russia probably feels threatened by the approach of NATO and the EU, which gets closer and closer to Moscow. Ukraine has become the disputed area, as it is adjacent to Russia, and Putin does not want the EU right next door.
Much as the US did by Cuba?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
... You can also look at this the other way round and point out that Russia probably feels threatened by the approach of NATO and the EU, which gets closer and closer to Moscow. Ukraine has become the disputed area, as it is adjacent to Russia, and Putin does not want the EU right next door.
Much as the US did by Cuba?
Yes; you can also imagine the US reaction if Mexico signed a bilateral treaty with Russia, accepted Russian troops and bases, and so on. I guess they would be none too impressed.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Why can't Russia just join NATO and, if it isn't democratic enough, closely align itself with the EU, along with the other former Soviet states? How are Russian interests mutually exclusive with the interests of the US and the EU?
This is where you probably start to enter Clash of Civilizations type territory. I don’t think Russia (or China, or Iran, or Pakistan) sees their interests lining up with the United States/EU/NATO, because they view their civilization and culture itself to be in many ways at odds and under threat from what all of those western institutions and cultures represent and what they bring with them.
Russia, without getting too long winded, has a long history of conflict with the West going back before even the ascent of Muscovy as a power. Western ideas and influence have arrived sometimes via the Russians themselves (such as with the 19th intellectual divisions between the Westernizers and the Slavophiles), but often at the tip of a spear or the end of a gun. Alexander Nevsky fought off crusading Teutonic knights and is one of the most revered figures in Russian history. They see a pattern in this. The West tried to exploit the time of troubles in the 17th century to exert religious and political influence in Russia, Napoleon invaded Russia, the West lined up with the Ottomans in the Crimean War against Russia, Britain and the U.S. financed Japan in the Russo-Japanese War, etc.
So Russians often identify the West as a threat. They see the same thing going on in Ukraine, which is not merely their near abroad, it was the place where their civilization was really born in the Kievan-Rus. It’s where they fought a war not of just domination with the Third Reich, but a war of annihilation where literally millions of Soviet citizens fought and died (which is why Stalin monster that he was still gets sympathy). So there is not just a political chess match going on with them, there is an element of sacredness and self understanding at play for them. I think that is completely lost on the current West, and it seems our collective historical memory goes back to about who won the Oscars. That’s not the case with the Russians.
I also think they feel a deep sense of a lack of respect on the part of the West for their concerns and beliefs.
[ 05. March 2014, 12:14: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Alt Wally
I think you are wrong about national sacredness not being understood in the West. I have Irish connections, and let me tell you, get a few Irish people in a pub arguing about the Free State or the Dáil Éireann (1919), and you can see the sparks fly. Of course, this is not true of all people, and it is abated in times of peace, but when nations are threatened, it comes to the fore.
There is a lovely literary example in Joyce's novel, 'Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man', when the family argue about Parnell:
A wail of sorrow went up from the people 'Parnell! Parnell! He is dead!' They fell upon their knees, moaning in sorrow"
I am not saying this is peculiar to the Irish either; I think you find it in many nations, especially when under threat.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
... You can also look at this the other way round and point out that Russia probably feels threatened by the approach of NATO and the EU, which gets closer and closer to Moscow. Ukraine has become the disputed area, as it is adjacent to Russia, and Putin does not want the EU right next door.
Much as the US did by Cuba?
Of course that was before ICBMs, and having Russian warheads on Cuba put them within striking distance of at least some of the heavily-populated bits of the United States. In other words, it was a huge change of the game, raising the stakes in the cold war and moving the doomsday clock several hours or days closer to Armageddon.
Ukraine joining NATO in 2014? Not so much.
The analogy doesn't hold.
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Western ideas and influence have arrived sometimes via the Russians themselves (such as with the 19th intellectual divisions between the Westernizers and the Slavophiles), but often at the tip of a spear or the end of a gun.
Ah, just like Christianity, then.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
But I could well believe that on the Russian side there continue to be people who see Ukrainians as a slightly exotic and peculiar variety of Russians, not as a separate nation.
Its worse than that. Some Russians see Kiev as the original home and the heartland of Russia. Not an exotic periphery, the natural centre.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Here's my shot at a compromise:
Ukrainian and Russian are both made the official languages of Ukraine, all students must learn both, and students in Russian-majority areas can study principally in Russian. Crimea gets autonomy in everything but foreign policy and the military, and still has to use the Ukrainian currency and send taxes to Kiev. The Russian bases stay in Crimea. Ukraine and Russia sign a comprehensive free trade agreement that does not conflict with any other agreement Ukraine may enter with the EU.
Ukraine also enters an association agreement with the EU with corresponding free trade agreements and maybe even some relaxation of immigration controls, if desired.
Ukraine doesn't join NATO but both Russia and the US and EU agree that if anyone invades Ukraine (off of the Russian bases in Crimea) without the UN Security Council's authorization, the other powers will act to defend Ukraine against aggression.
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
... You can also look at this the other way round and point out that Russia probably feels threatened by the approach of NATO and the EU, which gets closer and closer to Moscow. Ukraine has become the disputed area, as it is adjacent to Russia, and Putin does not want the EU right next door.
Much as the US did by Cuba?
Of course that was before ICBMs, and having Russian warheads on Cuba put them within striking distance of at least some of the heavily-populated bits of the United States. In other words, it was a huge change of the game, raising the stakes in the cold war and moving the doomsday clock several hours or days closer to Armageddon.
Ukraine joining NATO in 2014? Not so much.
The analogy doesn't hold.
The other thing, it seems to me, is that Cuba was in many respects a client state of the Soviet Union who did their master's bidding. (The ICBMs weren't really there for Cuba's benefit, were they? They were there for the USSR to intimidate the US.)
By contrast, countries like Estonia and Poland have joined the EU and NATO because they want to and the Ukraine, by all accounts, seems to want to follow the same path. Well, at least a good part of the country does.
[ 05. March 2014, 20:45: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Alt Wally
I think you are wrong about national sacredness not being understood in the West.
I probably greatly exaggerated. So let me say I think at least general public opinion, our press and our foreign policy probably does not fully understand, comprehend, or possibly even care about the cultural investment that Russia has in the territory in question. That to simply look at the situation as a desire on the part of the Russians to bring back the cold war or the Russian Empire, overlooks the emotional complexity that exists on both sides – Ukrainian and Russian. There are complex layers of religion, language, ethnicity, historical grievances and so on that exist between both. Both sides have a tendency to play to their extremes. That is one of the reasons the composition of the new Ukrainian government has a lot of warning signs for future problems. We however are not taking an even handed approach (save maybe the Germans). We’re picking a side to further our own political ends (payback for Snowden, Iran, Syria, etc.). I think that is effectively what Chill has been saying. On top of picking sides, you have the hysterical moralizing of people like Kerry who with everything uttered seems to highlight we love to condemn things we have done at other times and in other places (“the Russians are creating a pretext for war!!!...). This whole approach is dangerous and stupid, but we do it a lot- meaning the ham-fisted approach to trying to further our ends. It is also extremely counter productive given that in my opinion Ukraine is not at all a strategic interest, whereas for instance Afghanistan is. Yet Ukraine is getting it seems the attention now and there is talk of bolstering our defense spending in Eastern Europe, the missile defense system, blah, blah, blah . This is completely idiotic and pointless in my opinion.
On the general topic of what is sacred in the West, or what does sacredness mean in the West, that is probably a topic of its own.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Ah, just like Christianity, then.
I suppose for many post-Constantinian legalization that is true. That has been their experience. The Ukrainian-Russian experience has been one with a good deal of interconfessional conflict. You would be hard pressed to find an ideology or belief system that didn’t through the course of existence manifest itself to someone or some group as an attack or as a hostile force. Marxism, Capitalism, Islam, Western Democracy, Nationalism, etc. Though we may all believe in the End of History – what is western liberal democracy to you if you live in the tribal areas of Pakistan? It probably means your experience with it is drone strikes.
[ 06. March 2014, 00:19: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Given how weak Obama was looking until late yesterday, I kinda doubt this was a planned thing.
And given what Putin said today, I don't think he's really planned it all through either.
I get the impression that Putin, having successfully occupied the Crimea, now has no idea what to do with it. The whole situation is reminiscent of that scene near the end of Four Lions, where Waj has taken a kebab shop hostage.
Police negotiator: What are your demands, Waj?
(Total silence.)
Waj: I don't have any demands.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Not out of date at all quetzalcoatl. Not according to Ryszard Kapuscinski's terribly sublime, sublimely terrible reporting in Imperium. Raving idolatry of Russia is a thousand year old cancer of the mind that like biological cancer is of itself immortal.
[ 06. March 2014, 20:48: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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