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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: What's going on in Ukraine?
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Belarus?
Belarus is a member of CSTO (collective security treaty organisation) any move to neutrality would be seen as a strategic attack by Russia.
When the eastern block withdrew form the Warsaw packed they sought assurances that NATO would not move east. These were given but not in any legally binding way. Ironically a bit like the Budapest memorandum. NATO is as far east a Russia can or will strategically tolerate. This is a Red line scenario for them.
On the other hand, in my estimation, the US has retained its pre-cold war global Hegemony, and is alarmed by growing ties between China Iran and the Russian federation which could be the nucleus of a pan Eurasian strategic block to rival NATO's ascendency.
[I don't even know how you break code like that]
[ 20. March 2014, 15:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Since Belarus has been brought up, I thought this link might provide some comic relief. (Context: this is an anime called Axis Powers Hetaria, where the characters are personifications of countries and the protagonists are the Axis and Allied powers of WWII, although as in this clip they sometimes refer to present-day (or even way-before WWII) events).
youtube link
Don't worry about the "mature content" warning. Ukraine has a large chest, but she keeps her clothes on. This isn't THAT kind of anime. No one's chastity is at risk from watching it (although Russia (also clothed) is pretty handsome...he can annex me anytime).
The clip is from 2010, so it's a bit out of date and seems to be referring to Belarus' rough treatment of dissidents at the time. The portrayal of Ukraine, like all the other portrayals, is stereotyped, sexist, and a little racist, but that's normal for Japan (political correctness? what's that?). I think this is before Yanukovych returned to power and put Timoshenko in prison, so maybe that explains why Ukraine is portrayed as "she" is, though it's still inaccurate even for the time.
Oh, and here's Russia being more Putinesque: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoeCZf9zc1A
[Scroll lock fixed -Gwai]
[ 14. April 2014, 14:24: Message edited by: Gwai ]
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Since Belarus has been brought up, I thought this link might provide some comic relief. (Context: this is an anime called Axis Powers Hetaria, where the characters are personifications of countries and the protagonists are the Axis and Allied powers of WWII, although as in this clip they sometimes refer to present-day (or even way-before WWII) events).
youtube link
Don't worry about the "mature content" warning. Ukraine has a large chest, but she keeps her clothes on. This isn't THAT kind of anime. No one's chastity is at risk from watching it (although Russia (also clothed) is pretty handsome...he can annex me anytime).
The clip is from 2010, so it's a bit out of date and seems to be referring to Belarus' rough treatment of dissidents at the time. The portrayal of Ukraine, like all the other portrayals, is stereotyped, sexist, and a little racist, but that's normal for Japan (political correctness? what's that?). I think this is before Yanukovych returned to power and put Timoshenko in prison, so maybe that explains why Ukraine is portrayed as "she" is, though it's still inaccurate even for the time.
Oh, and here's Russia being more Putinesque:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoeCZf9zc1A
Oh, the wonderful parallel universe of Hetalia, where teenage girls cosplay the Wars of the Austrian Succession, and my once great and proud nation has become an annoying teenager with a yellow bird on his head....
Let me take your hand, Stonespring, and bring you to a different meme ...
[scroll lock fixed -Gwai]
[ 14. April 2014, 14:25: Message edited by: Gwai ]
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Polandball...funny but not as sexy Hetalia's Russia...
The Ship ships Russia x stonespring ... ? Tee hee.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Looks like Crimea #2 is now kicking off in the eastern oblasti... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Looks like Crimea #2 is now kicking off in the eastern oblasti...
Yes reports from the Russians media of Backwater merc's being deployed in the region. Conversely west alleges Russian agent provocateurs active. Both sides playing dangerous games. Things are escalating again, further annexation maybe in the offing. How will the west respond if Putin takes steps?
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
What I'd like to see the west doing and what we can actually do are two very different things: I'd like to see Ukraine request NATO boots on the ground on their sovereign territory and NATO to respond to that request. But that isn't going to happen because of the risk of WW3. So Vlad the Bad will get himself another juicy slice of former Soviet territory...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
Matt why would you like to see that? Vlad the Bad is not the only bad one. The U.S. is no better on the world stage surely?
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Is that what Jesus would like to see?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Putin has the capacity IMO to be another Hitler (or at least Hitler-lite) in terms of his foreign policy. If he isn't stopped, it is unclear where he will stop. So far the West has shown all the moral courage of the 1930s' appeasers.
[ 14. April 2014, 15:41: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Putin has the capacity IMO to be another Hitler (or at least Hitler-lite) in terms of his foreign policy. If he isn't stopped, it is unclear where he will stop. So far the West has shown all the moral courage of the 1930s' appeasers.
That's a bit extreme, Matt. While I don't doubt that he (along with many Russians) would like to see the ancestral Russian heartlands that are currently part of Ukraine returned to Russian control, there's no reason to suppose that if "we" don't stop him he'll continue to roll over as many countries as he can.
And what would you suggest we do anyway? Start world war 3?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Hmmm! It was Western politicians who were stirring it up in the first place, desperate for Ukraine to eventually become a member of NATO so they can build their bases there. So, if Putin has any blame then the West has equal blame.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
The world is moving back into the multipolarity of the 19th century. So Putin staking claim to a sphere of influence in Eastern Ukraine, Northern Georgia, etc., is no longer seen in the context of the bipolarity of the Cold War. It's not like the lines in the sand between competing alliances that preceded World War I either. There is no big ideological battle here (although ideology, religion, nationalism, and sexual morality are being used as propaganda tools and do actually matter to some people). Russia is also not going for "world domination" like the UK worried Germany was before WWI and like the US worried that the Soviets were with the Cold War. Multipolarity does mean more conflict, including armed conflict, than bipolarity - but it also means that the consequences of armed conflict are less dire.
The Ukraine just isn't that strategically important to the US, and aside from some symbolic importance to Europe it only matters in terms of natural gas pipelines. If Europe can find other sources of gas (which it is trying to do), then it can afford to not worry much about Ukraine.
I think that some effort needs to be made to enshrine respect for international law - among the US, Europe, and Russia (let's not forget China either) - but that will probably involve some compromise and new balance of power. It's hard to convince Russia to respect international law when the whole system has been written, especially since the end of the Cold War, to reflect US dominance.
NATO troops on the ground in Ukraine is a pretty crazy idea unless some splitting of the region is worked out with Russia.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Putin has the capacity IMO to be another Hitler (or at least Hitler-lite) in terms of his foreign policy. If he isn't stopped, it is unclear where he will stop. So far the West has shown all the moral courage of the 1930s' appeasers.
That's a bit extreme, Matt. While I don't doubt that he (along with many Russians) would like to see the ancestral Russian heartlands that are currently part of Ukraine returned to Russian control, there's no reason to suppose that if "we" don't stop him he'll continue to roll over as many countries as he can.
And what would you suggest we do anyway? Start world war 3?
Which is why I said there wasn't much realistically we could do to stop him (short of indeed risking WW3) - sadly.
And I don't buy the argument that the west stirred this up. Yes, doubtless they did to a degree, but what sparked this is the desire of the majority of Ukraine's citizens to be, if not oriented towards the EU, at least not a vassal state of Russia any more.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Putin has the capacity IMO to be another Hitler (or at least Hitler-lite) in terms of his foreign policy. If he isn't stopped, it is unclear where he will stop. So far the West has shown all the moral courage of the 1930s' appeasers.
Not sure I see it that way Matt. For one thing Putin put together a peace deal whist the west talked war in regard to Syria.
Nato is expanding east which is of itself an aggressive move. Russia is looking to secure a strategic buffer and retain and possibly re-establish some of the greater Russian sphere of influence.
Setting aside the disputed proxy wars, and looking at what we know. We have lived through a period were our government in the support of America has assisted in the invasion of two nations which pose no direct threat to us. These were conducted on the flimsiest of pretexts. One invasion took place on the grounds of a government failing to extradite terrorists wanted for a conspiracy to murder U.S. citizens. The other was invaded for owning non-existent weapons. Russia has behaved in a similar manner prosecuting wars were it feels its interests are endangered.
The U.S. continues with its policy of extra judicial assassination on foreign soil.(cutting the head of the snake) The drone strike program and the raids by JASOC in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as the Yemen and Pakistan evidence this beyond dispute. Unless I missed Osama's extradition and trial? Not that the land of polonium umbrellas is any better.
I'm really struggling to see a good guy here.
Except of courses the poor sod average Ukrainian who will get screwed either way.
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Chill,
Despite what I said above, it is still true that no matter how naughty the US and its allies have been lately we have not gone around conquering territory and adding it to our state for quite some time. Russia can engage in all kinds of geopolitics and even some wars and occupations to defend its interests, but what it did in Crimea is pretty much the most extreme thing any Western country has done territorially since the end of World War II. Better to just allow Crimea to be a puppet state with open markets and borders with Russia, and perhaps even dual (Crimean and Russian) citizenship for its inhabitants. But annexation crosses a line that rightfully makes the rest of the world shudder more than Georgia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Kosovo, etc., did - even if this power play, unlike those others, was relatively bloodless.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Is that what Jesus would like to see?
Absolutely
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Does POLAND know something we don't?
I think we can safely say that as soon as the first Russian soldier put on his 'let's go Crimea' uniform every nuclear sub sped off to local waters, every missile has been pointed in the direction of Russia and far more movement is happening that the press don't know about. This is all in the 'What to do when Russia wakes up' manual. I do not believe we're not ready.
[ 15. April 2014, 00:54: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Chill, as Stonespring has said, whilst our own governments have been far from geopolitical saints when it comes to international law, your case would be somewhat more watertight if we had, say, annexed Basra Province after invading Iraq. Also, I seem to have missed the memo that says that two international legal wrongs make a right...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So, Beeswax Altar, Jesus wants to see NATO BOG in the Ukraine. Wants to see us at Fast Pace, code red? At least?
How He's changed.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Nah...Jesus didn't change. It's just progressive revelation. God isn't opposed to using humans to crush God's enemies. We now know Putin is God's enemy. Of course, I reserve the right to disregard all scripture which contradicts that view. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Where did the only God we have ever seen demonstrate using humans to crush His enemies?
Where did the only God we have ever heard from His own lips abrogate His unequivocal saying of the opposite? To the disciples itching to call down fire on whole communities? To all of those with enemies?
You're a man of the cloth, you MUST know better than I where this naksh is in the good news?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Just read the OT. I'm not a Marcionite. Nor do I ignore the passages where Jesus clearly speaks of judgment. Not a far stretch to say Jesus would use humans as instruments of judgment. Surely not foreign to the other authors of the NT. Again, you can surely quote passages that contradict all of that. However, I call progressive revelation and exercise my prerogative to pretend those don't exist. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What's the OT got to do with Immanuel?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Like I said I'm not a Marcionite nor do I believe in a Demiurge.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So Jesus was a warmonger.
And you are a teacher of Israel.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Exactly
Can we get back to discussing the topic instead of your pet issue?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Unclear at present whether the Ukrainians are back in control at Kramatorsk.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yeah, let's squeeze past the room filler.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Or try to squeeze past the roadblock....
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I'm concerned Putin is letting the Ukrainians pick their poison. Either they allow ethnic Russians to slowly take over Eastern Ukraine or they resist the takeover giving Russia an excuse to invade to protect the Russian minority. Question is how hard the Ukrainians can make it for Russia to annex and pacify other parts of the Ukraine and how much help NATO gives them.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
As I've said, I'm not sure that NATO can do much without risking all out war. I wish it could.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Like what? What would Jesus do?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Bomb Moscow
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The Ukrainians have been completely outplayed by Putin and ill-advised and ill-served by America and their church and the Church. From the beginning of their insurrection. Throw rocks and Molotovs at Russians and you will get .22 Kalashnikov rounds back when you finally manage to burn any to death.
At least the Ukrainian military haven't killed any 'terrorists' yet and when surrounded by unarmed civilians they surrendered! Even better.
And yeah Beeswax Altar. You're right. He'd nuke them till they glow and then shoot them in the dark.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Ah...blame America for everything. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
At least that makes more sense than saying the Ukrainians were listening to the Church.
Not much more
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Ah...blame America for everything.
Maybe they wouldn't get blamed for everything if they didn't feel obliged to stick their nose into everything. It then all turns into a mess, as it has in Ukraine. I'm surprised the Zionists in Washington are so ready to jump into bed with Ukranian Neo-Nazis, just to piss off Russia.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The US has done nothing in Ukraine. There are conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theorists blamed the U.S. for the Christmas tsunami.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
So what were their politicians doing there during the coup?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Talking...that's what politicians do. Talking politicians don't accomplish much in the United States. They surely won't accomplish anything in Ukraine.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Well, maybe I'm just cynical, like, but I don't buy that. They were there trying to incorporate Ukraine into it's sphere of influence (first EU membership and then NATO). But God forbid Russia should try to maintain its sphere of influence, even if it meant being ready to accept a tripartisan deal, something which wasn't good enough for America and the EU, making Ukraine choose between East and West. This all whiffs of double standards and a complete unwillingness to see the whole situation from the Russian point of view. And as I said above, the real irony of this all is that the Zionists in Washington seem all too ready to get into bed with a bunch of Neo-Nazis in Kiev.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It's perfetly legitimate for both 'sides', Russian and Western, to seek to have influence and to get whichever Ukrainian government is in power at the time to make alliances (it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest for different political parties in Ukraine to have different preferences and act accordingly).
Influence is still fundamentally different from actually acquiring territory. Russia can complain as much as it likes about American influence in Ukraine, but the way to counteract that is to find ways of increasing Russian influence in Ukraine again, not actually take bits of Ukraine over.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Well, maybe I'm just cynical, like, but I don't buy that. They were there trying to incorporate Ukraine into it's sphere of influence (first EU membership and then NATO). But God forbid Russia should try to maintain its sphere of influence, even if it meant being ready to accept a tripartisan deal, something which wasn't good enough for America and the EU, making Ukraine choose between East and West. This all whiffs of double standards and a complete unwillingness to see the whole situation from the Russian point of view. And as I said above, the real irony of this all is that the Zionists in Washington seem all too ready to get into bed with a bunch of Neo-Nazis in Kiev.
The EU is the US sphere of influence? Yeah right. If Europe wanted Ukraine in the EU, Ukraine would be in the EU. Ukraine would have jumped at the chance to be in NATO and have the United States obligated to fight its battles. And the U.S. gets what exactly?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
It gets to build bases there. It's much easier to mobilise it war machine from Europe than America.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Well, maybe I'm just cynical, like, but I don't buy that. They were there trying to incorporate Ukraine into it's sphere of influence (first EU membership and then NATO). But God forbid Russia should try to maintain its sphere of influence, even if it meant being ready to accept a tripartisan deal, something which wasn't good enough for America and the EU, making Ukraine choose between East and West. This all whiffs of double standards and a complete unwillingness to see the whole situation from the Russian point of view. And as I said above, the real irony of this all is that the Zionists in Washington seem all too ready to get into bed with a bunch of Neo-Nazis in Kiev.
Just because the US has a strong alliance with the state of Israel does not mean that it is appropriate to imply to call the US government or a good deal of its membership Zionist. Pro-Israel is perhaps a better term, but I'm not sure that the Israeli government or US conservatives would consider the current US government pro-Israel. I know that sensitivities are different in Europe, but calling people Zionist unless they explicitly call themselves Zionist is associated with antisenitism in the US and is best avoided, since I doubt you are antisemitic. Zionism is not a bad thing but it is much too vague of a term with all kinds of social and religious connotations. It's not a very good descriptor for any foreign policy of the US. Are there politically active conservative Jews and Christians in the Is who call themselves Zionists? Certainly, but it's far from accurate to imply that the Obama administration is Zionist or that it contains a good deal of Zionists.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
It gets to build bases there. It's much easier to mobilise it war machine from Europe than America.
Poland is calling for NATO troops to be stationed on its border. The Baltic nations would welcome the same. Why hasn't the U.S. jumped at the opportunity to put military bases in Poland if we want military bases in the Ukraine?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
In the New York Times this morning: Putin Asserts Right to Use Force in Ukraine.
Here's the interesting part of Putin's speech, to me:
quote:
Kharkiv, Lugansk, Donetsk, Odessa were not part of Ukraine in Czarist times, they were transferred in 1920. Why? God knows.
"Why? God knows?" Nonsense. The reason is well known.
It was by means of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk in 1918 that the new Bolshevik government of Russia recognized the independence of Ukraine. And they did so as part of the separate peace they made with the Central Powers toward the end of World War I, because an exhausted Russia was no longer able to carry on the war on the Eastern Front. [I am painting with a broad brush here.]
Two things strike me about this:
One, the same treaty of Brest-Litovsk recognized the independence of the Baltics. The Bolshevik government subsequently attempted to take back the Baltics by force, but they fought back, and secured their independence until 1940, when they were absorbed by the Soviet Union as part of the Nazi-Soviet Pact.
If Putin's selective historical memory chooses to wipe out the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk ("God knows") then invasion and absorption of the Baltics may indeed be next on his agenda.
Two: If Putin asserts his supposed "right" ro change national boundaries, unilaterally and by force of arms, that had been agreed to by Russia in prior international treaties --
Well, that is what we all really should be talking about. Putin has sent up a remarkable propaganda blitz that has managed to distract nearly everyone from seeing the heart of the issue he has created.
Is war for territory, or war to satisfy revanchist dreams, to become once again the norm in Europe? Or is the rule of international law to be defended? (However weak and fragile international law may be.) No one objects to a nation pursuing its own national interests. But the question is: How is that to be done? Do we agree that Putin's way of doing it is legitimate, once again?
I think disaster lies that way.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Isn't putin just trying to wind the clock back a few weeks to a time before the people's protest ousted the pro-Russian Ukrainian government .
Admittedly it seems to be happening by stealth , but all this talk of putler and WW 3 is alarmist nonsense TMM.
Arab Springs and Western tinkering may be all very well in the Middle East. It doesn't look to me as if the Old Bear wants it's toes tickled in such a fashion.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Well, maybe I'm just cynical, like, but I don't buy that. They were there trying to incorporate Ukraine into it's sphere of influence (first EU membership and then NATO). But God forbid Russia should try to maintain its sphere of influence, even if it meant being ready to accept a tripartisan deal, something which wasn't good enough for America and the EU, making Ukraine choose between East and West. This all whiffs of double standards and a complete unwillingness to see the whole situation from the Russian point of view. And as I said above, the real irony of this all is that the Zionists in Washington seem all too ready to get into bed with a bunch of Neo-Nazis in Kiev.
Just because the US has a strong alliance with the state of Israel does not mean that it is appropriate to imply to call the US government or a good deal of its membership Zionist. Pro-Israel is perhaps a better term, but I'm not sure that the Israeli government or US conservatives would consider the current US government pro-Israel. I know that sensitivities are different in Europe, but calling people Zionist unless they explicitly call themselves Zionist is associated with antisenitism in the US and is best avoided, since I doubt you are antisemitic. Zionism is not a bad thing but it is much too vague of a term with all kinds of social and religious connotations. It's not a very good descriptor for any foreign policy of the US. Are there politically active conservative Jews and Christians in the Is who call themselves Zionists? Certainly, but it's far from accurate to imply that the Obama administration is Zionist or that it contains a good deal of Zionists.
I forgot to add that of course you can be a liberal or a socialist or an atheist and still be a Zionist. All the more reason that it's a bit too vague of a term to be useful unless you are talking about politics inside Israel or inside Jewish diaspora groups.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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