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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: What's going on in Ukraine?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I blame Christendom for everything above America which is just its most powerful territory.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I blame Christendom for everything above America which is just its most powerful territory.
America has nothing to do with "Christendom". It's foreign policy is not dictated by Christian morals but realpolitik and Zionism.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sound like big shiny facets of Christendom to me.
[ 17. April 2014, 21:31: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
The BBC and others report that a deal has been struck to "defuse" or "de-escalate" the crisis, and, while I am surprised, I am also very, very grateful. Humbly grateful.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Isn't putin just trying to wind the clock back a few weeks to a time before the people's protest ousted the pro-Russian Ukrainian government.
It's debatable exactly how far back that clock is being wound back.
quote:
Jews over 16 in the Ukrainian city of Donetsk are being told to pay a special tax and register their identities with the pro-Russian militants who have taken over the town, according to multiple reports.
<snip>
The orders were distributed on flyers throughout the city, according to the wire service JTA and USA TODAY. Those flyers bear the name and signature of Denis Pushilin, leader of the Russian-sympathetic separatist rebels who wrested control of Donetsk from Ukraine earlier in the month. Pushilin's forces have since patrolled the streets in black ski masks, AK47s slung over their shoulders.
Pushilin confirmed to one source that the flyers belonged to his group, which is calling itself "Donetsk's temporary government," although elsewhere he distanced himself from the flyers' content.
Now maybe the Donetsk militias have a good and legitimate reason for wanting to know who all the Jews in the city are, but I can't think of it offhand.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Sound like big shiny facets of Christendom to me.
Nope, just neo-conservatism. Nothing to do with Christendom, at least not historically.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nope, entirely not only effects but causes of Christendom.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Even when Christendom is in sharp decline and just a shadow of it's former self , still it is the guilty man whenever there is talk of war or unrest.
I'm inclined to celebrate the fact that so few people have, so far, been killed or injured in Ukraine despite the weeks of unrest.
Anyone remember the West's idea of 'War without casualties' in the late 90's ? Pity 9/11 had to put an end to that.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Ah...the neocons
According to Martin, the neocons are a symptom of the rise of Christendom. Christendom as generally understood never really existed. Christendom understood by Martin arose 50 or 60 years ago due to the influence of disillusioned Trotskyite Jews. Got it.
Ad oriented would have us believe virtually everybody in the U.S. government is a neocon. Barack Obama and John Kerry are neocons. Realists(real politik is a realist not neocon game) are neocons. Perhaps the definition of neocon that encompasses all these distinct factions is found in some updated version of The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion I haven't read.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Realism (think Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger) in foreign policy (=realpolitik) means making cold-hearted decisions based on national interest (natural resources, trade routes, military strength and defenses) and not on any ideology or morality. Liberalism (think Woodrow Wilson) makes decisions based on the wish to spread an ideology, usually liberal democracy when we refer to the US.
Neoconservatism is like liberal realism. Like realism, it wants to vigorously contain the threat offered by rivals and enemies, and therefore supports a big, strong military. Like liberalism, it refuses any alliances with or "appeasement" of its ideological enemies (once Communism, now Fundamentalist Islamist Terrorism). However, to win the big ideological struggle, neoconservatism will prop up foreign regimes that are vigorously anticommunist or anti-terrorist even if they aren't that democratic. Neoconservatism is also pro-Israel since Israel is a. a strong ally in a strategically important region, b. the most democratic country (despite its imperfections) in that region, and c. In its early days, we wanted to win Israel over so it would steer clear of the Soviets (who in turn became pro-Arab) - now Israel is even more alarmed by any Islamist ideology that might be sympathetic to terrorism than the US is.
Neoconservatism is rightfully criticized for being militaristic and trigger-happy.
And please stop calling the US government Zionist. I don't think you are Anti-Semitic, but calling someone "Zionist" just because they are a political and military ally of Israel is associated with Anti-Semitism (and as I explained earlier, it isn't accurate or particularly useful as a term).
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Neoconservatives want to make the world safe for democracy same as Woodrow Wilson. Foreign policy realists would not have been involved in Libya, Iraq, Kosovo, or Somalia and their actions in Afghanistan would have focused entirely on capturing and killing Osama and crippling AlQaeda. The overthrow of the Taliban might have also happened but without the nation building.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
What "overthrow of the Taliban"? They will be back ruling the roost (such as it is) as soon as the Americans decamp, which is to say probably by next year.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
And please stop calling the US government Zionist. I don't think you are Anti-Semitic, but calling someone "Zionist" just because they are a political and military ally of Israel is associated with Anti-Semitism (and as I explained earlier, it isn't accurate or particularly useful as a term).
I beg to differ. It is Zionism and it is not anti-Semitic. The state of Israel clearly gets special treatment, though quite why it has any more right to exist than any other country, I'll never know. States come and go. So what? It's not our problem. Quite why we should put our (the West's) security at risk for it I don't know. Let the Jews and Arabs sort it out. We shouldn't get involved.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
What?
The US has defense agreements with nations all over the world. Why are you singling out Israel? The South Koreans get special treatment. Japan gets special treatment. How many US soldiers died in European wars last century?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
And please stop calling the US government Zionist. I don't think you are Anti-Semitic, but calling someone "Zionist" just because they are a political and military ally of Israel is associated with Anti-Semitism (and as I explained earlier, it isn't accurate or particularly useful as a term).
I beg to differ. It is Zionism and it is not anti-Semitic. The state of Israel clearly gets special treatment, though quite why it has any more right to exist than any other country, I'll never know. States come and go. So what? It's not our problem. Quite why we should put our (the West's) security at risk for it I don't know. Let the Jews and Arabs sort it out. We shouldn't get involved.
You can call it being pro-Israel. You can call it supporting "Israeli exceptionalism." But there really is no good reason to call the policy of the US government Zionism. According to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary, Zionism is "political support for the creation and development of a Jewish homeland in Israel." That means that Zionism as a matter of foreign policy ceased to be a useful term once Israel was recognized by the vase majority of the international community. Now foreign policy in relation to Israel is not about Zionism but about the same issues that govern foreign relations with any other state. US policy towards Israel might seem unfair or unwise but to call it Zionist is to says more about whoever is calling it Zionist and their attitudes than it does about the policies themselves.
Calling the US Zionist implies that it is still a question whether or not Israel has a right to exist as a homeland in the Middle East for the Jewish people, regardless of its borders. France was allied with the rebelling colonies of the US during the American Revolution, and it is allied with the US now in NATO. Does it make any sense to call France a supporter of American independence from Britain now?
Furthermore, many states recognize Israel diplomatically and talk about Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people, but are not military or political allies of Israel. Since they support the aims of the Zionist movement (the establishment and development of a homeland for the Jewish people in the Middle East), are they Zionist? It's just not a useful term in international relations anymore. Zionism only has relevance in Israeli politics (how does Israel live up to its founding ideals?) and in the politics of communities of the Jewish diaspora. It also has relevance in the Jewish religion. It does not have relevance in the international relations of countries with Israel that have recognized Israel for decades.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Beeswax Altar.
No it isn't.
Realpolitik and Zionism are of Christendom and so is Neoconservatism AKA Liberalism mugged by 'reality'=Realism.
Well argued stonespring, but I agree with Ad Orientem. US foreign policy is inevitably Zionist due to the Christian Zionism of the Religious Right, a diminishing but still horribly powerful force in US politics.
At least Ronnie Reagan - a raving fundamentalist - kept a picture of an injured Palestinian girl on his desk when talking to Bibi Netanyahu.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Yes it is. I rely on actual facts not shit I make up as I go along. You should try it.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No it isn't. And yes you do. It's in black and white above. Incontrovertible. I'll leave it to you to find out EXACTLY where.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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