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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Being niggardly with language
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Ignorant misunderstandings are one thing, but lilBuddha doesn't need education to dispel her misunderstanding - she knows perfectly well what the word means, there is no misunderstanding, but she still feels visceral pain. And if this kind of feeling is widespread, rather than being a personal idiosyncrasy, it suggests that one should try to avoid the word, even with an audience that understands its meaning.
Oh, that's what you meant. Sorry.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
American audience
I would expand the audience reference beyond America. In my experience anyway.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
American audience
I would expand the audience reference beyond America. In my experience anyway.
Your experience is that outside America, people who understand the meaning of the word "niggardly" and understand that it does not share the same origins as "nigger" nevertheless feel visceral pain when they encounter it?
Or just the bit about "niggardly" being unfamiliar to an uneducated audience?
(My instinct is that in the UK, "niggardly" is more common, and would be familiar to people a little further down the educational spectrum (even if they think of it as a word their granny would use), and also that people who don't know the word are less likely to connect it with "nigger".)
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
This seem to trump the other issues of the city where this tragedy occurred. It was founded so that congressmen could bring their slaves with them when Congress was in session without risking them being freed as they were in Philadelphia.
Can you give a source for this?
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Leorning Cniht:
I meant nigger is used more broadly outside America than some appear to think. So, yes, the possibility for others to react as I do is broader as well.
IME, niggardly is used slightly more in the UK, but not to the degree comments on this thread would make it appear.
Again, I suspect a colour divide as well as an educational one.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
This seem to trump the other issues of the city where this tragedy occurred. It was founded so that congressmen could bring their slaves with them when Congress was in session without risking them being freed as they were in Philadelphia.
Can you give a source for this?
Moo
From what I found, he is not correct. However, slavery was part of the changing of the shape of the district.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
However, slavery was part of the changing of the shape of the district.
Actually I doubt that. I grew up in Arlington County, which was the part of the District that was returned to Virginia in 1846.
I was in junior high school in 1946 when the centennial was celebrated, and we studied the history of the transaction.
At that time, Washington had 100 square miles and a small population. The population density in what became Arlington County was unusually low.
The city did not see the point of providing roads, etc. for this widely-scattered population, so they gave the land back to Virginia.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
I'm British, I know what niggardly means and would understand it when I encounter it in writing or speech but it's not such a familiar word that I would be likely to use it myself. I would be more likely to use the word "stingy" in its place.
However to me niggardly would not evoke a connection with the N word. Probably because the N word is not particularly one I encounter in real life. Sure I know what it means and how offensive it is, I've seen it written about and I've heard it on films. But I don't think I have ever heard someone use it in real life. That probably says plenty about my own upbringing and social circles or something....
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Here, this sort of whispering campaign is predominantly used amongst the left in inter-factional wars. I thought that was clear in my post. The example from Fox News is of something very different.
I find it sad that even knowing the proper meaning of the word, lilBuddha finds such pain in its use. I doubt if those around when I use it would not understand the word itself, or if they did not, that they would associate it with the N word. The context alone would make that clear. The N word is not in very common use here - heaven knows, we have more than enough other racist words to contend with.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Response to Moo
It is mentioned as a factor in this account of the retrocession.
[ 29. April 2014, 22:16: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Response to Moo
It is mentioned as a factor in this account of the retrocession.
That may or may not be accurate. The problem with Wikipedia is you never can tell. I would be interested in an article by a recognized historian.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Response to Moo
It is mentioned as a factor in this account of the retrocession.
That may or may not be accurate. The problem with Wikipedia is you never can tell. I would be interested in an article by a recognized historian.
Moo
What I have learned from speaking with historians is that, when studying history, ware the edges of the axes as they are being ground.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I meant nigger is used more broadly outside America than some appear to think. So, yes, the possibility for others to react as I do is broader as well.
IME, niggardly is used slightly more in the UK, but not to the degree comments on this thread would make it appear.
Again, I suspect a colour divide as well as an educational one.
And a transatlantic divide, and an age-related one.
I thought "nigger" was an American cultural export (amongst many others, good and bad), and is still probably more common in the States than elsewhere.
I can see that to use "niggardly" to an audience that hears "nigger" hundreds of times more often than "niggardly" might risk misunderstanding. But there are contexts (combinations of age, colour, nationality, education) where "niggardly" would be the more common of the two words, and in many contexts the risk of confusion would be minimal.
Although the sort of reaction you describe is a different sort of confusion from the paedophile/paediatrician thing, which seems to be no more than ignorance.
I guess these days if a word isn't used on TV then it will gradually drop out of use...
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Although the sort of reaction you describe is a different sort of confusion from the paedophile/paediatrician thing, which seems to be no more than ignorance.
As well as mythical, according to a link provided earlier.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
But I don't think I have ever heard someone use it in real life. That probably says plenty about my own upbringing and social circles or something....
When I was a child (in the UK), the rhyme to determine who was "it" went "eenie, meenie, minie, mo; catch a nigger by the toe". None of us, aged five or so, had ever heard the word, and most thought that it was actually a "nicker" - ie. someone who nicks stuff - a thief.
The rhyme was passed down the unbroken chain of small children at play, and I gather we have Rudyard Kipling to blame for its ubiquity on the 20th century English playground.
I certainly encountered it again reading Mark Twain, but I don't think it occurred to me that the word might be in any more current use that "injun".
I was probably a teenager before I understood that the word was in current use. Like Lucia, I don't think I have ever heard it used "live" about a black person - other than the children's rhyme, I've heard it by reference a lot, and in books, but the only other time I've heard it was as a child's attempt to pronounce the name of the country to the north of Nigeria.
In my experience, racists talk about "blacks" or "coloureds", or occasionally "darkies". Or "Pakis", of course (the preferred term of abuse for anyone with origins in the Indian subcontinent).
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
But there are contexts (combinations of age, colour, nationality, education) where "niggardly" would be the more common of the two words, and in many contexts the risk of confusion would be minimal.
Yes, but, as you say, lilBuddha's issue isn't one of confusion. She knows what niggardly means, isn't confused about anyone's racist intent, but nevertheless experiences painful feelings when she hears it. Her suspicion is that other people, both in the US and the UK, will share her reaction.
And that's what makes it difficult to manage. It's easy enough to only use the word with an audience of people who will mostly know what it means, or won't get it confused with the other word.
But if there are people randomly scattered through the population who feel pain at that pair of syllables, there is nothing for a speaker to do except choose an inferior word.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Marginally inferior, I would suggest. As has been noted, the word is rarely used in the US. And yet we still manage to convey all the same range of meanings that have been described on this thread.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Although the sort of reaction you describe is a different sort of confusion from the paedophile/paediatrician thing, which seems to be no more than ignorance.
As well as mythical, according to a link provided earlier.
That's not right either. The truth is that mythological colour was added to a real event.
Here is what happened, plus some account of the myth growth around the actual incident.
The real event was unpleasant enough to persuade Dr Yvette Cloete to move out of the neighbourhood, but basically it was an act of hate-vandalism perpetrated by a small gang of adolescents.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Although the sort of reaction you describe is a different sort of confusion from the paedophile/paediatrician thing, which seems to be no more than ignorance.
As well as mythical, according to a link provided earlier.
That's not right either. The truth is that mythological colour was added to a real event.
Here is what happened, plus some account of the myth growth around the actual incident.
The real event was unpleasant enough to persuade Dr Yvette Cloete to move out of the neighbourhood, but basically it was an act of hate-vandalism perpetrated by a small gang of adolescents.
She moved. The article does not indicate whether or not the incident was a factor in the decision. The article also says the speculation (of which there is much) is that the spray painting was done by a group of adolescents, but that in fact, no one knows who did it or why.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Fair enough. I stated cause and effect as inferred in the article. My point was that there was an unpleasant real event behind the myth. It wasn't all newspaper hype.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
This seem to trump the other issues of the city where this tragedy occurred. It was founded so that congressmen could bring their slaves with them when Congress was in session without risking them being freed as they were in Philadelphia.
Can you give a source for this?
Moo
I read about in a book about Jefferson which is not to hand. The 1780 Pennsylvania
An Act for the Gradual ABOLITION of Slavery That law does have an exemption for domestic slaves of congressman. I don't know if that exemption applies to the future children of slaves, which the law freed. (It didn't actually free existing slaves, that happened in the law of 1847)
Here's a reference to Pennsylvania Emancipation It refers to the change from slavery to a long term indenture (which was not dissimilar to slavery)
quote:
By the early 1790s, the market had soaked up the local population of former slaves and Philadelphians were importing indentured blacks from other states and even overseas. The labor force got a big boost in 1791 when rebellion erupted in the French slave-owning colony of St. Dominique. Refugees began arriving in Philadelphia by the shipload in 1792, and they found that the state would not extend the clause that allowed non-resident slave owners to dwell no longer than six months in Pennsylvania with their human property.
Congress decided to move out of Philadelphia into a federal district after a riot which the Governor of Pennsylvania did not stop.
The actual decision to pick D.C. wad the Residence Act It was a compromise which accepted a southerly location rather than one in Susquehanna, Pennsylvania in exchange for the South agreeing to help pay the War Debts.
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
When I was a child (in the UK), the rhyme to determine who was "it" went "eenie, meenie, minie, mo; catch a nigger by the toe". None of us, aged five or so, had ever heard the word, and most thought that it was actually a "nicker" - ie. someone who nicks stuff - a thief.
Yes that rhyme with the word "nicker" was certainly around during my childhood. But as you say it had no connotation to me of the original meaning. It just sounded like a nonsense poem to me. If you'd actually asked me what it meant I don't think I would have had a clue. Only as an adult did I realise the implication and have taught a new, inoffensive version to my own children. (Thanks CBeebies for the rhyme!)
[ 30. April 2014, 07:39: Message edited by: Lucia ]
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
When I was a child (in the UK), the rhyme to determine who was "it" went "eenie, meenie, minie, mo; catch a nigger by the toe".
That rhyme was commonly used when I was a small child in Australia in the Fifties, as was the expression "work like a nigger", and Nigger Boy was a brand of licorice into the early Sixties.
I don't think I have heard anyone use the word during the last forty or fifty years.
Another wrongheaded piece of linguistic confusion, almost as bizarre as the nigger/niggardly example, appeared in a conservative Christian newspaper some years ago, when someone proposed a ban on the use of any cognate of the word abortion, as in an aeroplane's aborted take-off or landing.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
As a not so small boy in the fifties, I knew that n.... was not to be used, save in the context of licorice, or soap pads, The then proper term was Negro, but that is acceptable no longer.
Once the brand names went, use of n.... vanished here. As I said above, there are enough racist terms floating here that we need to eradicate.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
@ lilBuddha
I'm not defending the continued use of niggardly on the grounds that it is in some way 'superior'. Actually, I'm not defending its use at all if there is any risk of inadvertent offence. I've read what Eliab wrote and get that now, but before this thread it had never occurred to me that the word was problematic, potentially offensive.
Maybe I'm deaf to homophonics? That might indeed be the case. By nature I'm more into semantics. I appreciate we're not all the same in the way we relate to words.
Thanks for explaining so clearly your own responses to the word and this discussion.
[ 01. May 2014, 09:07: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
As far as slavery in Pennsylvania is concerned, here is a site that deals with it.
The site discusses the actual effects of the law in these words. quote:
The act that abolished slavery in Pennsylvania freed no slaves outright, and relics of slavery may have lingered in the state almost until the Civil War. There were 795 slaves in Pennsylvania in 1810, 211 in 1820, 403 or 386 (the count was disputed) in 1830, and 64 in 1840, the last year census worksheets in the northern states included a line for "slaves." The definition of slavery seems to have blurred in the later counts. The two "slaves" counted in 1840 in Lancaster County turned out to have been freed years before, though they were still living on the properties of their former masters.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
In other news, Rep. Paul Ryan is being called out for his racist dog-whistle about "inner city" culture. His explanation is that when he says "inner city", he means everyone, not just black people. Anyone really believe that?
quote:
“We have to be cognizant of how people hear things,” Ryan said. “For instance, when I think of ‘inner city,’ I think of everyone. I don’t just think of one race. It doesn’t even occur to me that it could come across as a racial statement, but that’s not the case, apparently … What I learned is that there’s a whole language and history that people are very sensitive to, understandably so. We just have to better understand. You know, we’ll be a little clumsy, but it’s with the right intentions behind it.”
Really? A former vice-presidential candidate didn't know about "language and history"? Anyone really believe that?
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/paul-ryan-meet-black-lawmakers
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
... I was in junior high school in 1946 when the centennial was celebrated, and we studied the history of the transaction. ...
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
That may or may not be accurate. The problem with Wikipedia is you never can tell. I would be interested in an article by a recognized historian.
So one person's memories of a high school class over half a century ago are more historically accurate than a current Wikipedia article with citations. That must have been some high school.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Another wrongheaded piece of linguistic confusion, almost as bizarre as the nigger/niggardly example, appeared in a conservative Christian newspaper some years ago, when someone proposed a ban on the use of any cognate of the word abortion, as in an aeroplane's aborted take-off or landing.
But again, it's just another illustration of the emotive connotations that surround even benign word choices. As per your example, when I was admitted to a US hospital for a D&C following a miscarriage, I was similarly dismayed to see that the diagnostic category for my procedure was "incomplete abortion". Of course, I understood in this sense the word "abortion" was used in a clinical sense to mean "termination of pregnancy" regardless of whether the termination was voluntary/induced or whether it was involuntary/natural. Yet, given the circumstances (and no doubt a fragile emotional state), I found the term distressing.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
There are some small licorice and menthol pellets used for clearing mucus for clear voice, which have, at last, removed embarrassment from asking for them by changing their name from Nigroids to Vigroids. I'm not sure how unembarrassing the new name is, but at least it's not offensive. I used to be surprised that chemists would stock the N ones rather than the alternative, slightly different formula, of Mighty Imps.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Vigroids is very good. Maybe a blend of steroids and viagra - be careful.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
As far as slavery in Pennsylvania is concerned, here is a site that deals with it.
The site discusses the actual effects of the law in these words. quote:
The act that abolished slavery in Pennsylvania freed no slaves outright, and relics of slavery may have lingered in the state almost until the Civil War. There were 795 slaves in Pennsylvania in 1810, 211 in 1820, 403 or 386 (the count was disputed) in 1830, and 64 in 1840, the last year census worksheets in the northern states included a line for "slaves." The definition of slavery seems to have blurred in the later counts. The two "slaves" counted in 1840 in Lancaster County turned out to have been freed years before, though they were still living on the properties of their former masters.
Moo
That's the same link I referred to earlier in the thread. As I mentioned, the law did prevent enslavement of the children of slaves, and with the exception of Congressman, didn't allow visitors to keep slaves for more than six months.
The impetus to move from a state to a federal district came from governor of Pennsylvania refusing to protect Congress from the war veterans marches. The choice of Federal district was primarily between a Northern site in Pennsylvania and a Southern site.
It's notable that shortly after the slavery law was passed, the Southern states were now willing to assuming the sates war debt as a federal debt, even though the Northern states had most of the remaining unpaid debt. In exchange they, notably Washington got the Federal District located in the South.
[ 30. April 2014, 19:12: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
In other news, Rep. Paul Ryan is being called out for his racist dog-whistle about "inner city" culture. His explanation is that when he says "inner city", he means everyone, not just black people. Anyone really believe that?
quote:
“We have to be cognizant of how people hear things,” Ryan said. “For instance, when I think of ‘inner city,’ I think of everyone. I don’t just think of one race. It doesn’t even occur to me that it could come across as a racial statement, but that’s not the case, apparently … What I learned is that there’s a whole language and history that people are very sensitive to, understandably so. We just have to better understand. You know, we’ll be a little clumsy, but it’s with the right intentions behind it.”
Really? A former vice-presidential candidate didn't know about "language and history"? Anyone really believe that?
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/paul-ryan-meet-black-lawmakers
I'm willing to believe he wants to slash the budget for spending that helps the poor and cut taxes for the wealthy of all races.
"Inner city" is a slightly dated dog-whistle since places like Harlem are being gentrified as city real estate gets more expensive. The current euphemism for non-white minorities is "urban". ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
So for the benefit of this poor confused Brit, how in the US do I refer to the urban poor when what I mean are people who are poor, and live in cities next to other poor people?
Because you're telling me that all the obvious words actually mean "black people". So which words just mean "poor people"?
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That's odd, since nobody said it was wrong to call "poor people" "poor people". The phrase "inner city" has long been a synonym for "ghetto," and therefore has the kind of stereotypical associations that you would expect from that word.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
Sorry, I wasn't clear. The issues that affect the poor in rural areas are often significantly different from the issues that affect the poor in cities. "Poor people" is both kinds. "Rural poor" is presumably OK for one kind. What set of words describes the other kind without carrying racial, or racist, connotations?
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
So one person's memories of a high school class over half a century ago are more historically accurate than a current Wikipedia article with citations. That must have been some high school.
I looked at the site again, and it's definitely incorrect. It says quote:
If Alexandria were returned to the state of Virginia, the move would have added two additional pro-slavery representatives to the Virginia General Assembly.
Alexandria was never part of the District of Columbia. Arlington County was the only territory returned to Virginia.
Citations are not always correct.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Sorry, I wasn't clear. The issues that affect the poor in rural areas are often significantly different from the issues that affect the poor in cities. "Poor people" is both kinds. "Rural poor" is presumably OK for one kind. What set of words describes the other kind without carrying racial, or racist, connotations?
"Urban poor"? It has the double benefit of being a direct echo of the phrase you used above-- and therefore logical-- and not having history as being a replacement term for "ghetto."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The impetus to move from a state to a federal district came from governor of Pennsylvania refusing to protect Congress from the war veterans marches. The choice of Federal district was primarily between a Northern site in Pennsylvania and a Southern site.
Even if the governor of Pennsylvania was willing to have Philadelphia as the national capital, many of the Constitutional Convention delegates were not. They did not want the capital located in one state because that would give that state an advantage over all the rest. The only way they would have accepted Philadelphia as capital was if Pennsylvania had ceded it, which they certainly wouldn't have done.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
"Urban poor"? It has the double benefit of being a direct echo of the phrase you used above-- and therefore logical-- and not having history as being a replacement term for "ghetto."
Except that Palimpsest says that's a euphemism.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
That's odd, since nobody said it was wrong to call "poor people" "poor people". The phrase "inner city" has long been a synonym for "ghetto," and therefore has the kind of stereotypical associations that you would expect from that word.
But not here. The newspapers here extol the virtues of living in the inner city as being smart etc. Why, I can't understand, but they do, and some people seem to believe them.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Again confused-- where was Paul Ryan taken up for his comments, regionally?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
"Urban poor"? It has the double benefit of being a direct echo of the phrase you used above-- and therefore logical-- and not having history as being a replacement term for "ghetto."
Except that Palimpsest says that's a euphemism.
Does "replacement term" not work as well as "euphemism"? because I will state for the record that I agree that "inner city" can be a euphemism for "ghetto."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Does "replacement term" not work as well as "euphemism"? because I will state for the record that I agree that "inner city" can be a euphemism for "ghetto."
No, Palimpsest said that "urban" was also a euphemism.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I thought he was being flip (note smilie), but I think the point of his flip-ness was that that word is much less fraught."Urban gardening, urban hiking, urban environment" -- all terms used with not much attachment to race. Hence the word is less loaded.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Urban is more complicated. It is used as a euphemism/replacement/proxy for Black. It's need not be derogatory.
It has a history of being used by Black people to describe Black people, e.g. the Urban League. There are also more traditional uses meaning metropolitan, as in the clothing chain Urban Outfitters.
It's getting use as an advertising category; sites self describe as "urban" meaning Black.
I'm not sure if it's meant to be a broader description than Black; any city non-white minorities might be part of a loose description.
"Inner City" has a problem when the rents go up and the poor are forced out of the city. To quote the guards in the show "Vampire Lesbians of Sodom"
Do you live in Sodom?
No, I can't afford the rents; I have an apartment in Gomorrah.
[ 30. April 2014, 23:13: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Wow, I have discovered a gap in my doublespeak, because my reaction to the phrase "urban city" is exactly as described in the article--"What do you mean, 'city-ish city'"?
Maybe there is still a chance to nip this one in the bud.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Urban is more complicated. It is used as a euphemism/replacement/proxy for Black. It's need not be derogatory.
Derogatory isn't really my issue - I'm looking for a set of words that an American would understand to mean low income urban communities, without carrying any extra implication of race.
It sounds like "urban poor" is a better bet than "inner-city poor", but still not free of racial colour.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The impetus to move from a state to a federal district came from governor of Pennsylvania refusing to protect Congress from the war veterans marches. The choice of Federal district was primarily between a Northern site in Pennsylvania and a Southern site.
Even if the governor of Pennsylvania was willing to have Philadelphia as the national capital, many of the Constitutional Convention delegates were not. They did not want the capital located in one state because that would give that state an advantage over all the rest. The only way they would have accepted Philadelphia as capital was if Pennsylvania had ceded it, which they certainly wouldn't have done.
Moo
As the link I cited earlier on the Residence Act said;
quote:
Two sites were favored by members of Congress: one site on the Potomac River near Georgetown; and another site on the Susquehanna River near Wrights Ferry (now Columbia, Pennsylvania). The Susquehanna River site was approved by the House in September 1789, while the Senate bill specified a site on the Delaware River near Germantown, Pennsylvania. Congress did not reach an agreement at the time.[
So Pennsylvania was willing to give the land for the capital district from the state of Pennsylvania.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
So Pennsylvania was willing to give the land for the capital district from the state of Pennsylvania.
But they were not willing to give Philadelphia.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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