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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Being niggardly with language
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
fyi: I don't think what I am describing has anything at all to do with "age groups" or geography, although those may or may not be complicating factors in the mutual give-and-take of good communication. It's all about attitude and characteristics like empathy, kindness, and generosity and how those things (or the lack thereof) shape our language.
Don't think anyone's opposed to empathy and kindness. And, for example, that empathy and kindness may result in one choosing one's words very carefully should it become necessary to raise with an overweight friend/acquaintance/neighbour the subject of his or her weight.
But that shouldn't prevent plain English discussion of obesity as a general issue, or make such discussion subject to fads in the use of language.
As for age and geography, do you really think that as many new usages move westwards as eastwards across the Atlantic ? That the 60-80s coin as many new usages as the 20-40s ? That rural areas change as fast as urban ?
Nothing wrong with vibrant culture. But the fact that a usage becomes well-established in some group of people who are "ahead" in terms of the flow of new ideas, new words, new usages doesn't impose any duty on those "behind" to keep up.
Speaking tabloid English - chav and bling - is no virtue.
Freedom to coin new usages is matched by freedom to reject them. If some community wishes to speak the language of Dickens and Trollope, there's no innate immorality there. And broadcast and blog in that language (although how to refer to the process of blogging in Dickensian English might prove interesting).
Should someone from such a fictitious community encounter and desire to communicate with someone from a New York slum, then clearly some empathy and goodwill may be needed. Equally on both sides.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
QUOTE]Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
fyi: I don't think what I am describing has anything at all to do with "age groups" or geography, although those may or may not be complicating factors in the mutual give-and-take of good communication. It's all about attitude and characteristics like empathy, kindness, and generosity and how those things (or the lack thereof) shape our language.
Don't think anyone's opposed to empathy and kindness. And, for example, that empathy and kindness may result in one choosing one's words very carefully should it become necessary to raise with an overweight friend/acquaintance/neighbour the subject of his or her weight.
But that shouldn't prevent plain English discussion of obesity as a general issue, or make such discussion subject to fads in the use of language.[/QUOTE]
It depends on what you mean by "fads". Obviously you're using it as a pejorative. But what you call "fad" sounds to me what I'm calling kindness and empathy-- simply being attentive to other people's use of language and anticipating possible hurt/offensive. My point about empathy and kindness was not to prevent any discussion of any topic. My point was to do so with kindness and empathy. Which would entail, among other things, avoiding using terms which you know to be offensive. (We have already discussed the obvious problem of unintentional usage of offensive terms, which is a different matter). If that means paying attention to "fads" then so be it.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
fyi: I don't think what I am describing has anything at all to do with "age groups" or geography, although those may or may not be complicating factors in the mutual give-and-take of good communication. It's all about attitude and characteristics like empathy, kindness, and generosity and how those things (or the lack thereof) shape our language.
As for age and geography, do you really think that as many new usages move westwards as eastwards across the Atlantic ? That the 60-80s coin as many new usages as the 20-40s ? That rural areas change as fast as urban ?
You're ripping my quote from the context. In the context, I'd already covered that, as had others.
Yes, obviously there will be huge geographic and generational differences in vocabulary. We see this on the board and on this thread. And yes, people who are geographically or generationally isolated will be less likely to know/anticipate which terms will cause offense. This is where our discussion of innocent errors comes in. One should, as has been said multiple times already, show grace in such a circumstance, the same as you would someone who speaks broken English and makes a grammatical error. That's part of empathy and kindness, of course.
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Nothing wrong with vibrant culture. But the fact that a usage becomes well-established in some group of people who are "ahead" in terms of the flow of new ideas, new words, new usages doesn't impose any duty on those "behind" to keep up.
You don't have a duty, of course. But, again, we're talking about known offense here, not unknown. At the point when a term is known to be offensive, if you continue to use it, you are being a jerk. You are demonstrating that your goal is not good communication, your goal is not understanding, but rather something else entirely.
quote:
Originally posted by Russ: Speaking tabloid English - chav and bling - is no virtue.
This term is unfamiliar cross-pond.
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Freedom to coin new usages is matched by freedom to reject them. If some community wishes to speak the language of Dickens and Trollope, there's no innate immorality there. And broadcast and blog in that language (although how to refer to the process of blogging in Dickensian English might prove interesting).
Should someone from such a fictitious community encounter and desire to communicate with someone from a New York slum, then clearly some empathy and goodwill may be needed. Equally on both sides.
Which is precisely what we have been saying all along.
[ 07. May 2014, 23:46: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
agh, somehow in editing to fix messed up coding I ended up with duplicate post and no time to delete. Sorry.
[duplicate post stuff deleted]
[ 08. May 2014, 05:44: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There are many alternates to the word nigger for currently in use, alternates for all the words or, gasp not using the rhyme at all.
Until threads like this one, I wouldn't have known any alternative word for nigger in that rhyme.
At a family party, where my sister was doing more than her fair share of passing round food and drinks and generally looking after everybody, my mother-in-law (in her 80s at the time) said to my mother "Your eldest daughter is working like a [incredibly long pause, as she doubtless considers and rejects "nigger" and "slave"] Trojan!"
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There are many alternates to the word nigger for currently in use, alternates for all the words or, gasp not using the rhyme at all.
Until threads like this one, I wouldn't have known any alternative word for nigger in that rhyme.
At a family party, where my sister was doing more than her fair share of passing round food and drinks and generally looking after everybody, my mother-in-law (in her 80s at the time) said to my mother "Your eldest daughter is working like a [incredibly long pause, as she doubtless considers and rejects "nigger" and "slave"] Trojan!"
See my story upthread about how my mom's less edited usage of that phrase led me to have to change the Bible translation I use when preaching on the parable of the prodigal son...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
Was it GBS said that the Americans and English are two nations divided by a common language ?
We all go to school, and get our early writings returned to us with red ink where we've got words wrong. Within a community, there is correct and incorrect English. As well as words or phrases that are considered polite and those considered less-polite.
Then we grow up and leave school (or possibly in the other order)and discover that there are whole nations whose English wouldn't quite get full marks at school. And grow older still and find that the younger generation's English isn't quite up to the mark. (and probablybecome old fogeys moaning about declining educational standards).
So we struggle with this strange mix of right or wrong word use within a community or social circle, and yet different but equally valid usage between different parts of the globe, between different communities.
In this hybrid situation, where what we think we know is neither absolute and objective, nor relative and subjective, but something in-between, something community-relative where "community" is not closed and well-defined but open, shifting and permeable.
One of the ways of getting it wrong is to treat the relative politeness of a word within one's own community as an absolute truth that should be heeded by people in other communities.
Nothing wrong with a friendly well-intentioned warning "here in Kansas City if you talk about inner city problems people will tend to think you mean racial problems". That's unobjectionable and could be useful data if one happened to be planning a business trip in that direction.
But rephrase it as "These days anyone who talks about inner city problems is a closet racist; this is accepted usage where I live - if you in the rest of the world don't adjust your usage accordingly then you're a jerk" and you come across as someone with an exaggerated sense of the importance of your own place of residence. It's to do with tact and empathy...
Trying hard here to agree with what's right in what you say, and make it clear to you what's wrong.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
One of the ways of getting it wrong is to treat the relative politeness of a word within one's own community as an absolute truth that should be heeded by people in other communities.
hmmm... and yet that "absolute truth" approach seems to be precisely what you have been arguing for here. What am I missing?
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Nothing wrong with a friendly well-intentioned warning "here in Kansas City if you talk about inner city problems people will tend to think you mean racial problems". That's unobjectionable and could be useful data if one happened to be planning a business trip in that direction.
But rephrase it as "These days anyone who talks about inner city problems is a closet racist; this is accepted usage where I live - if you in the rest of the world don't adjust your usage accordingly then you're a jerk" and you come across as someone with an exaggerated sense of the importance of your own place of residence. It's to do with tact and empathy...
Which is EXACTLY what pretty much everyone on this thread has said-- repeatedly.
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Trying hard here to agree with what's right in what you say, and make it clear to you what's wrong.
Try harder then, because I'm not seeing it. So far, I hear you arguing vehemently that I am wrong, wrong, wrong, and then giving me an impassioned argument for exactly what I and everyone else has said.
[ 08. May 2014, 16:31: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Was it GBS said that the Americans and English are two nations divided by a common language ?
This bloody well annoys me. Neither the UK nor America are homogeneous in language usage. Expressions, slang, pronunciations and overtones all vary within national boundaries as much as between them. And, as has many race related issues raised on SOF, experience is different dependent also on the hue of one's skin or the origin of one's ancestors.
This is not Jolly Olde England vs the Colonies to the degree it is being portrayed.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
I don't think the us of the word "niggardly" in the U.S. is as problematic as it's being portrayed by some on this thread. Anybody who has been through the U.S. school system would've encountered the word a number of times between the 7th and 11th grades through Dickens, or Austen, or Melville or a number of different authors. In this case the solution isn't "be careful with what you say", it's "here's a dictionary and here's a subscription to the Book-of-the-Month Club for you".
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I don't think the us of the word "niggardly" in the U.S. is as problematic as it's being portrayed by some on this thread. Anybody who has been through the U.S. school system would've encountered the word a number of times between the 7th and 11th grades through Dickens, or Austen, or Melville or a number of different authors. In this case the solution isn't "be careful with what you say", it's "here's a dictionary and here's a subscription to the Book-of-the-Month Club for you".
I disagree, for all the reasons we've mentioned upthread.
fwiw, I'm in the US and know the dictionary definition of "niggardly" but would not use it unless in very select situations. Again, the point of language is to communicate, using a term that's going to require a lot of "unpacking" ("be careful with what you say", it's "here's a dictionary and here's a subscription to the Book-of-the-Month Club for you") in any environment other than academia is going to be distraction from whatever you're primary purpose might be.
The other problem is, again (this has all been well covered upthread) is that the offended party can't know what they don't know. If someone hears "niggardly" and thinks it's a variant of the n-word, they don't know to look it up or to ask what it means. They think they know. And the offending party similarly may not realize they've offended, especially if the communication is not face-to-face (e.g. in the media).
Good communication takes these sorts of things into consideration and strives to avoid words that may distract or mislead from the meaning you're attempting to convey. Mistakes are made, of course, but that is the goal.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Was it GBS said that the Americans and English are two nations divided by a common language ?
This bloody well annoys me. Neither the UK nor America are homogeneous in language usage. Expressions, slang, pronunciations and overtones all vary within national boundaries as much as between them.
That's true. I've indicated that there's an age dimension, and suspect there are rural/urban issues also, as well as regional variations.
I'm inclined to give the transatlantic dimension first place only in response to the earlier discussion of the longer N-word. Where it seemed that the resemblance to the shorter N-word was seen as less obvious or significant to Europeans.
Also, national broadcast and print media tend to encourage commonality of usage within nations.
But the point of quoting Shaw was not to blame everything on national variations, but simply reflect that it's the sort of problem that arises when two people think they speak the same language, but don't quite.
If you go around labelling this usage as "acceptable" or that usage as "offensive" without any qualifier as to which people in which places might find it acceptable or offensive, then it can sound awfully like saying that American usage or Guardian-reader usage (sorry - don't know the US equivalent - national left-leaning newspaper) is normative for the rest of the world.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
If you go around labelling this usage as "acceptable" or that usage as "offensive" without any qualifier as to which people in which places might find it acceptable or offensive, then it can sound awfully like saying that American usage or Guardian-reader usage (sorry - don't know the US equivalent - national left-leaning newspaper) is normative for the rest of the world.
True, but a bit off-topic as no one here is doing that.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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