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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Homeschooling
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
They more than coped, one is now an airline pilot and the other a nurse, they are very well adjusted happy young men.
Another question that comes to mind is whether something like a career in medicine or aviation can be pursued without any kind formal training (i.e. a completely home-schooled pilot or nurse)? Do state requirements for training in these fields constitute a tyrannical attempt to stifle critical thinking? Or are things like drug interaction training or landing procedures the kind of thing where we want some conformity?
I'm sure the airline pilot and the nurse embarked on their chosen careers with the required training. They wouldn't have started this training until they were adults. Home-schooling doesn't prevent anyone gaining qualifications. My child and AFAIK most of his home educated contemporaries, have good jobs and all the necessary qualifications.People who are educated outside the school system learn how to learn and this helps them them to be successful.
[ 19. May 2014, 21:10: Message edited by: justlooking ]
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Must you cease to responsible for your children's learning simply because they are in a school? Of course not.
Because Canada has more wilderness than civilization, we started camping with our eldest when she was 3 weeks old, tenting. Camping means tent, lighting fires to cook over, staying warm at cool temps (+3°C last night, this Victoria Day long weekend), travelling by canoe, dealing with discomfort like being wet, mosquito bitten etc. There are specific skills that are part of such activities, but more important are the general life skills like problem solving, and coping with adverse conditions.
Aren't there other general life lessons, aside from formal school that you impart to your children? -- I also think that schools impart life lessons, such as how to get along with others, solve conflicts, tolerate others' behaviour etc.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor
The common complaint of those who are homeschooled is the lack of contact with other children.
What percentage of them complain? All the homeschooled children I know are completely satisfied with the arrangement.
They participate in organized sports, choirs and other music groups, drama groups, etc. They also have time to play with the kids in their neighborhood because they don't have to spend time on homework. What's not to like?
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor
The common complaint of those who are homeschooled is the lack of contact with other children.
What percentage of them complain? All the homeschooled children I know are completely satisfied with the arrangement.
I don't know, and it would be impossible to find out. But it is the common complaint with those who became dissatisfied with their homeschooling when adults. Those who were satisfied, I guess, see no reason to complain.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Alan Creswell:
And, for the vast majority of children the best will be the local school. Even a "bad school".
Possibly
Again, the question is who gets to make that decision.
quote:
originally posted by Doc Tor:
But this is errant bollocks. The Tea Party exists because it's bankrolled by big business to destroy the post-war social democratic consensus of business regulation and taxes. They are jackals, pure and simple, and there'll be nothing left of a publicly-funded school system by the time they're done: there won't be a publicly-funded anything.
One, I find the Huffington Post as credible as you do Fox News. Two, the Tea Party isn't a unified organization that can be bankrolled by anybody. It's a broad movement. Three, I think both business regulation and taxes need to be rethought. Fourth, the Tea Party is primarily concerned with the federal government and not local government. I'm obviously not opposed to the federal government getting much smaller. Five, I only said I was somewhat optimistic that the Tea Party could evolve into something better. It likely won't. I don't claim to be a Tea Partier.
quote:
originally posted by Doc Tor:
I don't know, and it would be impossible to find out. But it is the common complaint with those who became dissatisfied with their homeschooling when adults. Those who were satisfied, I guess, see no reason to complain.
You want to hear some of the common complaints of high school graduates about the "socialization" they experienced?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
One, I find the Huffington Post as credible as you do Fox News. Two, the Tea Party isn't a unified organization that can be bankrolled by anybody. It's a broad movement. Three, I think both business regulation and taxes need to be rethought. Fourth, the Tea Party is primarily concerned with the federal government and not local government. I'm obviously not opposed to the federal government getting much smaller. Five, I only said I was somewhat optimistic that the Tea Party could evolve into something better. It likely won't. I don't claim to be a Tea Partier.
Well, then. Tell me which news sources you do trust. It's not exactly secret that the Kochs are throwing money at the Tea Party like it's wedding rice.
As to the other bits? I have a couple of bridges that I need to get rid of, cheap. Interested?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Oh, please, like public schools at any level actually encourage children to think for themselves.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Mine did.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Yeah the Left hates the Kochs. Conservatives don't like George Soros, Hollywood, and Sillocon Valley. I don't like any of them. So, it's all the same to me.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yeah the Left hates the Kochs. Conservatives don't like George Soros, Hollywood, and Sillocon Valley. I don't like any of them. So, it's all the same to me.
You do realise that when you say 'the Left', what you mean is 'the not-extreme Right'?
Most UK Tories are left of the Democrats. God only knows what that makes me.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I don't think I was 'socialised' particularly well by the state secondary schools I attended. I was a bit eccentric then, and I still am now, to my annoyance! It's hardly a guarantee that going to school makes for excellent social skills; and considering that many of our ancestors would have been homeschooled in some way is it really the case that most of them would have had poor social skills?
Moreover, despite having trained as a teacher, I think there's something slightly dated in the notion that 'teacher knows best'. Facilitating learner autonomy is often the ideal in modern education; and more importantly, we live in an age when authority figures are routinely challenged, respect must be earned rather than given automatically, and some young people who've experienced a regimented school environment almost all their lives still find it troublesome to obey rules set and policed by others when they leave. IOW, there are other factors in how children turn out.
I think school is simply the most convenient and cost-effective way to educate a large number of people who might otherwise miss out on some sort of education. But that's not the same as school being the best option for every individual child. It's just what most of us have to make do with.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
. . . considering that many of our ancestors would have been homeschooled in some way is it really the case that most of them would have had poor social skills?
A brief survey of history indicates that most of our ancestors "had issues", as it would be expressed today.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
A brief survey of history indicates that most of our ancestors "had issues", as it would be expressed today.
More than we do today?
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
. . . considering that many of our ancestors would have been homeschooled in some way is it really the case that most of them would have had poor social skills?
A brief survey of history indicates that most of our ancestors "had issues", as it would be expressed today.
And you think those issues were due to inadequate socialisation in childhood? Interesting. I don't think I've ever come across that idea in a history book, but everything is possible!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
. . . considering that many of our ancestors would have been homeschooled in some way is it really the case that most of them would have had poor social skills?
A brief survey of history indicates that most of our ancestors "had issues", as it would be expressed today.
And you think those issues were due to inadequate socialisation in childhood? Interesting. I don't think I've ever come across that idea in a history book, but everything is possible!
Hey, it's your chosen metric.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yeah the Left hates the Kochs. Conservatives don't like George Soros, Hollywood, and Sillocon Valley. I don't like any of them. So, it's all the same to me.
You do realise that when you say 'the Left', what you mean is 'the not-extreme Right'?
Most UK Tories are left of the Democrats. God only knows what that makes me.
I'm not going to get into that pointless debate. Why the British think Americans care how they use the political terms is beyond me? There are 320 million Americans. Suffice to say that if the UK and USA merged most Democrats would still be on the Left. Your views would definitely be far left. But again that's a pointless debate.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Just to add actual experience to a discussion which has veered off into name-calling, I'll offer Homeschoolers Anonymous which, as might be expected, deals with the experience of home-schooling and some of the advantages/pitfalls/disasters.
[ 19. May 2014, 23:48: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
Libby Anne was homeschooled in a fundamentalist community (she's now an atheist) and her blog offers a great deal of insight into the choice as well as many links concerning the practice in the U.S..
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor
The common complaint of those who are homeschooled is the lack of contact with other children.
What percentage of them complain? All the homeschooled children I know are completely satisfied with the arrangement.
They participate in organized sports, choirs and other music groups, drama groups, etc. They also have time to play with the kids in their neighborhood because they don't have to spend time on homework. What's not to like?
Moo
I don't know what percentage of them complain - it would probably be pretty difficult to find out. But at least two people who were homeschooled have complained about the arrangement, on this very thread. Do we count?
I did not participate in organised sports, or choirs or other music groups, or drama groups, or other kind of etcetera. I got to go to church, once a week. I had a music lesson, by myself, with a teacher, once a week. I did have one sibling to play with, but no neighbourhood kids, partly because they were mostly at school, and partly because neighbourhoods are extremely spread out concepts in provincial New Zealand, and if you are not in possession of a car and a driver's license, you don't have much choice about who you hang out with. There were other kids in the locality, but not within reach - it's not like I could have just gone out and played marbles in the street with them when they were done yawning over their homework, or whatever.
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
What's not to like?
I think I pretty much covered that, above. But seeing as you ask, there's also the feeling of being 'different', the odd one out, of not actually being able to converse sensibly with your peers when you do happen to run into them, because you are not privy to whatever's hip at the moment. Then, I missed out on getting into the degree course I was interested in because it was an 'early entry' course, with selection before final high school exams (which I sat), based on marks for coursework from the penultimate school year. What coursework? My sister faced the same situation (with a different course) two years later. Same result.
You know, I do understand and acknowledge that my parents were genuinely trying to do what they thought was best for us, and they put a lot of themselves into the endeavour. Nonetheless, I have to say I wish they had decided otherwise.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Counts as anecdotal evidence that homeschooling isn't the best option for everybody. Nobody is arguing otherwise. My argument is that homeschooling should be an option. People with negative experiences of public high school are legion. I don't want to ban those either. Roman Catholics of a certain age often tell horrible stories about the nuns. Even elite boarding schools have their detractors. All should be options.
[ 20. May 2014, 03:17: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
BA, I'm not sure if you are responding to my post or to Art Dunce and Horseman Bree above me. If to me, thanks for the measured reply, it is appreciated. However - as far as 'nobody is arguing otherwise' goes - I posted what I did because I felt that Moo was indeed arguing otherwise. S/he pretty much stated that s/he could think of no reasons against homeschooling and nothing not to like about it. So I provided some. Of course they are only anecdotes, and those who want to ignore them will do so, or brush them off as exceptions which prove the rule. Which they may indeed be, I suppose - I have walked no road other than my own.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Why the British think Americans care how they use the political terms is beyond me? There are 320 million Americans. Suffice to say that if the UK and USA merged most Democrats would still be on the Left.
You are, of course objectively wrong regarding the Democrats (though I like the cut of Elizabeth Warren's gib). And we care (at least, I do) because language is actually important to us, and painting extremists as moderates and vice versa gets our goat.
Your views from a British perspective are sailing over the eastern horizon. That alone may account to the reaction here to some of your views on schooling.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your views from a British perspective are sailing over the eastern horizon. That alone may account to the reaction here to some of your views on schooling.
BA's making a perfectly reasonable case for parental choice. You are painting this as extremism. Try and get out and about more. It is extremism to want to ban home schooling. It is extremism to think that the state should have a monopoly on education and always knows best.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Counts as anecdotal evidence that homeschooling isn't the best option for everybody.
No more anecdotal than your evidence that public schools fail to teach children to think and otherwise fail their pupils.
quote:
Nobody is arguing otherwise. My argument is that homeschooling should be an option.
What many of us are arguing is that home schooling should be an option. But, it should be an option that is only taken in exceptional cases - geographical isolation, particular educational needs that local schools can not meet. My argument is that for the vast majority of children local schools would be the best option. Yes, local schools could, in many cases, be improved - but I doubt that's contentious.
I would add that in relation to future education (eg: university entrance) or employment then it would be preferable that home schooling follows a recognised curriculum with recognised qualifications obtained - though, for example in England, that wouldn't need to be the National Curriculum and GCSE/A levels; children could follow the Scottish curriculum and sit standard/highers, or International Baccalaureate. I'm aware that argument doesn't hold in the US where nationally recognised curricula and qualifications don't exist at public school.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
If it's an option 'only taken in exceptional cases' then it isn't a genuine option. UK law gives parents the duty to ensure their children are educated - either by attendance at school, or otherwise. It is for parents to decide.
Home-education gives a freedom which isn't possible in most school systems. How people use that freedom will be influenced by their reasons for rejecting school. IME Christian fundamentalist parents saw schools as too liberal and their alternatives were therefore controlled to limit a child's access to anything that might contradict their beliefs. Most of the people I mixed with saw schools as too restrictive and regimented and we organised learning to fit around our children's interests. The most obvious difference was having no need for a rigid timetable with activities limited to one hour at a time like most school lessons. We used to go to the national residential gatherings as well as local group activities and got to know a wide mix of people.
Some families are able to arrange 'flexi-schooling' with the child attending school for some activities - this depends on the school being willing of course. For teenagers there's access to courses at FE colleges and other adult learning centres. It's discretionary access rather than a right but colleges receive the same funding for a 14 year old 'home-schooler' as they would for a post-16 student so they're often very willing to admit them. From the age of 14 my son and several of his contemporaries were learning through a mix of courses at FE college or other centres, home-based study and activities with other 'home-schoolers'. Most of them also had friendships and social activities with school students.
[ 20. May 2014, 08:10: Message edited by: justlooking ]
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
If it's an option 'only taken in exceptional cases' then it isn't a genuine option.
Why not?
I can certainly think of examples where there is a default setting, and scope to depart from the default setting when the need to depart from it is demonstrable.
If you think the word 'option' only applies when there is a completely free, unfettered choice with no hoops to jump through, then the word is going to become redundant in a heck of a lot of situations.
Even your description of UK law is a little misleading, because it isn't the case that parents can just go "I feel like having home schooling". Parents have to show in some way that the home schooling is going to be adequate. Whereas in the school system, parents don't have to show the school is adequate. You can argue as much as you like about whether a given school IS adequate, but the point is that the parent's responsibility to demonstrate adequacy ends at the point of enrolment. With home schooling, the same kind of assumption of adequacy doesn't apply and the parent has the extra hoops to jump through to show that yes, home schooling is actually going to work.
[ 20. May 2014, 08:24: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your views from a British perspective are sailing over the eastern horizon. That alone may account to the reaction here to some of your views on schooling.
BA's making a perfectly reasonable case for parental choice.
Bzzt.
Only a couple of people here have suggested banning homeschooling. I am not one of them.
However, to suggest that BA's case is reasonable is misleading, since they've argued that a teaching degree/diploma is more or less worthless, that parents are better teachers of academic subjects than people who have actually studied those subjects, and that the vast majority of parents know what sort of schooling is best for their children and make those decisions based on high-minded, educated principles.
Since all those things are not just contentious, but in many cases demonstrably false, BA's case is not reasonable, but ideologically driven despite of the facts.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
If it's an option 'only taken in exceptional cases' then it isn't a genuine option.
Why not?
Because it would be a choice only to apply for permission. The real choice would be with whatever authority made the decision. It would be limited to whatever was deemed to be 'exceptional'.
It would be equally wrong to say that home educated children and teenagers have a choice of flexi-schooling and FE courses. There isn't a choice because there isn't a right. It's a discretion and therefore the choice is to apply for access.
Home education is a genuine choice because it is a right enshrined in law. Parents have the right because parents have the responsibility.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
Home education is a genuine choice because it is a right enshrined in law. Parents have the right because parents have the responsibility.
The language of 'rights' is apt to mislead. You yourself have stated that a parent has a duty to ensure proper schooling. If a parent cannot deliver proper home schooling, the supposed 'right' to home schooling disappears.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Arethosemyfeet: quote:
Once again, can we stop talking about the UK when we mean England? The new curriculum in Scotland is pretty much the opposite of what you describe
Sorry. If you check my previous posts on this thread, it's the first time I did it. I am aware that the situation in Scotland is different, and also that you're to blame for the imposition of synthetic phonics... which some people now think is bad for children who can read when they start school. I could have told them that six years ago, whatever the research findings in Clackmannanshire were.
I was being sarcastic earlier, Beeswax Altar. There are plenty of teachers in our state (=public) schools who teach children to think for themselves. It's even in the National Curriculum requirements for spoken language: "articulate and justify answers, arguments and opinions."
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, to suggest that BA's case is reasonable is misleading, since they've argued that a teaching degree/diploma is more or less worthless, that parents are better teachers of academic subjects than people who have actually studied those subjects, and that the vast majority of parents know what sort of schooling is best for their children and make those decisions based on high-minded, educated principles.
Teaching degrees and diplomas do not make a teacher. PGCEs are often pretty worthless. However in-school training, placements and experience sometimes make PGCEs worthwhile. Some parents can teach better than teachers. And the state should not encroach on the territory and choices of families unless absolutely necessary for the welfare of children.
BTW, I'm married to a primary school teacher and I'm a school governor.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Arguments about what does not necessarily make a teacher tend to obscure the more pertinent question about what is more likely to make a teacher.
The fact that some women are taller than some men hardly makes it true that women are on average taller than men. Neither does an observation that some parents are better at teaching than some qualified teachers constitute any kind of proof that the overall odds are in favour of parents being better at teaching than qualified teachers.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
.... If a parent cannot deliver proper home schooling, the supposed 'right' to home schooling disappears.
Yes, but what constitutes 'proper home schooling' isn't defined. Education has to be in accordance with a child's age, aptitude and ability and with regard to the child's own wishes. This applies to schools too. Case law has established that home educated children should be making progress in literacy and numeracy and developing the skills they need to live in modern society. Education authorities have a duty to intervene if they have good reason to suspect that a child is not being educated in accordance with age, aptitude and ability. Very few legal challenges made by education authorities have been upheld.
One in four home educating parents are qualified teachers according to
this TES article quote:
The stereotypical image of the middle-class, university-educated and slightly "alternative" parent contains only an element of truth. A two-year study by Paula Rothermel at the University of Durham in 2002 (see resources) found that around one in six home educators was a non-skilled or manual worker. Fewer than half had been to university. But despite the apparent variety of home educators, one statistic stands out: one in four is a teacher (see case study). "Teachers have confidence in their own ability to educate a child," says Roland Meighan. "But more to the point, they have insider knowledge. They know how bad schools are."
[ 20. May 2014, 08:59: Message edited by: justlooking ]
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Spawn: quote:
Some parents can teach better than teachers.
Once again, for those who didn't get it the first time: Teaching a single child or a small group of highly motivated pupils is A LOT EASIER than teaching a class of 30-35 with varying abilities and attitudes. You are comparing apples and oranges.
And some parents are teachers, as you yourself are obviously aware.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, to suggest that BA's case is reasonable is misleading, since they've argued that a teaching degree/diploma is more or less worthless, that parents are better teachers of academic subjects than people who have actually studied those subjects, and that the vast majority of parents know what sort of schooling is best for their children and make those decisions based on high-minded, educated principles.
Teaching degrees and diplomas do not make a teacher. PGCEs are often pretty worthless. However in-school training, placements and experience sometimes make PGCEs worthwhile. Some parents can teach better than teachers. And the state should not encroach on the territory and choices of families unless absolutely necessary for the welfare of children.
BTW, I'm married to a primary school teacher and I'm a school governor.
And I've taught in a state primary school for 8 years. Is that "out more" enough for you?
I'm well aware of the limitations of PGCEs: however, I've also had the very great pleasure of watching the vast majority of NQTs and teachers in training (designated training school) do an absolutely sterling job.
Again, like BA, your objections are ideologically driven, not based in fact. While I agree in principle that the state shouldn't encroach on the territory and choices of the family, in practice where their poor choices and boundary setting encroach on mine, I'd like the state to intervene rather than me.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
Yes, but what constitutes 'proper home schooling' isn't defined.
Of course it isn't. It's difficult enough to precisely define what 'proper SCHOOL schooling' means in any legally sensible manner.
Nevertheless it's the education authority that has to be satisfied about the home schooling, not the parent. I'm not sure where you're getting a notion of legal challenges BY the authorities from, because section 437 of the Education Act 1996 (as read by me on the official UK legislation site) is pretty clear on this: if the local education authority has suspicions, the onus is on the parent to satisfy them that the education is suitable, and if they are not so satisfied they have the power to issue an order that the child attend school.
Administrative law principles mean that the education authority has to have some legitimate basis for not being satisfied, but when it comes to a difference of opinion, it's the education authority's satisfaction that matters, not the parent's.
[ 20. May 2014, 10:21: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
It is extremism to want to ban home schooling. It is extremism to think that the state should have a monopoly on education and always knows best.
Banning homeschooling isn't giving the state a monopoly on education necessarily. It's giving the state a monopoly on the enforcement of education, which is a bit different.
As I said before, homeschooling is illegal in Germany. Legal challenges to this have failed (right up to the ECHR) partly because it is considered that families still have a variety of educational choices available to them. There are plenty of private schools, cooperatives etc that are available. What they are not allowed to do is educate their children at home.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
What seems to pass many parents by is that schooling outside the home is as much about children socialising as it is about the imparting of knowledge. It is important that they start to build a network of friends and parents unable to see or accept this should ask themselves what they are afraid of.
As has been noted elsewhere, wishing to control the people one's children come into contact with to the extent of denying them a chance to mix with their peers is control freakery and to be resisted.
Looking at the adult life of hyper-bright child who was home-educated can be useful too: once they hit university (usually at least 3 or more years younger than other first years) they frequently go off the rails. Not only do they not make friends with their fellow students - likely to be down to the age gap - but having no group of friends of their own age they can be very susceptible to emotional and psychological problem which may be with them for the rest of their lives.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
Yes, but what constitutes 'proper home schooling' isn't defined.
Of course it isn't. It's difficult enough to precisely define what 'proper SCHOOL schooling' means in any legally sensible manner.
Nevertheless it's the education authority that has to be satisfied about the home schooling, not the parent. I'm not sure where you're getting a notion of legal challenges BY the authorities from, because section 437 of the Education Act 1996 (as read by me on the official UK legislation site) is pretty clear on this: if the local education authority has suspicions, the onus is on the parent to satisfy them that the education is suitable, and if they are not so satisfied they have the power to issue an order that the child attend school.
Administrative law principles mean that the education authority has to have some legitimate basis for not being satisfied, but when it comes to a difference of opinion, it's the education authority's satisfaction that matters, not the parent's.
An education authority can issue a school attendance order but this can be challenged in court. Ultimately if there is such a dispute it for the courts to decide and all the cases I know of have been decided in favour of the parents choice. Such cases have also served to clarify what can be used as evidence of suitable education. The 'Harrison Case' was a landmark ruling. quote:
Twenty five years ago Iris Harrison decided she was sick of being told that three of her children, who are now understood to be dyslexic, were "educationally sub-normal". She took them out of school and began teaching them from home.
The battle through the courts that followed was well publicised. The council threatened to take her children away, people in the street called her an anarchist and, at one point, she considered sending her children abroad to avoid the law. But her battle became a focus point for an increasing number of parents deciding to opt for home-based education for their children. "I believed that the world was changing and that schools were still giving the same kind of jumping-through-hoops education, and not preparing us for the real world, where problem-solving and self confidence matter most," said Mrs Harrison. "The court case meant that we won the right to autonomously educate children, so that the child would be in charge of its education. We, as parents, are the facilitators."
In fact the detailed judgement of the court did set a general principle that parents should take steps to ensure their children were making progress in literacy even if they were dyslexic as in the case of the Harrison children.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
So there are arguments that homeschooling either leads to overeducation or undereducation, but the main fear seems to be that it leads to social abnormality. In societies that supposedly champion individuality this is quite interesting. We're clearly not as free to be different as we'd like to claim. More specifically, the expectation seems to be that we become different from our parents, but we ought to fit in with our peers. This is the cultural norm.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
.....
Looking at the adult life of hyper-bright child who was home-educated can be useful too: once they hit university (usually at least 3 or more years younger than other first years) they frequently go off the rails. Not only do they not make friends with their fellow students - likely to be down to the age gap - but having no group of friends of their own age they can be very susceptible to emotional and psychological problem which may be with them for the rest of their lives.
If you look at the research very few home educated children go to university earlier than their peers - more often they take exams later. The 12 year olds taking A levels may be the ones who get a lot of publicity but they're not the norm.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
An education authority can issue a school attendance order but this can be challenged in court. Ultimately if there is such a dispute it for the courts to decide and all the cases I know of have been decided in favour of the parents choice.
Okay, I'm with you now.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
MY (anecdotal warning, just for BA) experience has been with home-schooled children who came to high school when the curriculum became too much for the parent(s).
The biggest problem was attention-seeking. The children had various abilities and achievements, but they all expected to be served FIRST since they were used to that at home. In large families, they were loud and demanding, presumably because that was how they got mother's attention (the fathers were "out working" and had little input on the school work)
And the standards varied all over the shop. On average, they were weaker in subjects that required connected reasoning - Math, for instance, or Physics.
TBF, despite most of them being HS for religious reasons, they did not attack evolution in Biology class or elsewhere.
On the whole, I would say that HS was of no significantly greater value than the public alternative, and the kids who lived through it had, on the whole, mildly weaker social skills.
But that is only the result of 50 years of public and private school teaching, which doesn't count against an ideological position which can ignore logic.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Spawn: quote:
Some parents can teach better than teachers.
Once again, for those who didn't get it the first time: Teaching a single child or a small group of highly motivated pupils is A LOT EASIER than teaching a class of 30-35 with varying abilities and attitudes. You are comparing apples and oranges.
And some parents are teachers, as you yourself are obviously aware.
I get your point however many times you choose to make it. It tends to reinforce my view that children can be as well taught in the home by their untrained parents as they are in the classroom by a certificated teacher. Not all home schooling will be as good as classroom schooling.
Left wingers tend to argue that all teachers in the state school system should be trained. In my view, most teachers should enter the profession through formal training but some will crossover from private schools and other routes. They should not automatically be barred from teaching in state schools. My mild assertions are hardly rigidly ideological, as Doc Tor claims.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The biggest problem was attention-seeking. The children had various abilities and achievements, but they all expected to be served FIRST since they were used to that at home. In large families, they were loud and demanding, presumably because that was how they got mother's attention (the fathers were "out working" and had little input on the school work)
This goes to the point that many seem to be making - that the point of public schooling is largely socialization as defined by the current powers-that-be. That sort of attention seeking behavior can be very valuable in certain fields of work - sales or in the pit of a financial trading floor, for example. Interesting both are jobs that even these days you can find people who are exceptional at them while lacking in formal education.
So in sum, I'm not convinced that "they don't fit in" is a reasonable argument against home schooling, without discussing what the "fit" is and whether it's actually good for children in the first place.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
Mass state-provided education is a fairly recent development in the UK. It was originally intended to ensure a basic level of literacy, numeracy and work skills for the new industrial age and was organised to achieve this as cheaply as possible with large classes and rote learning. People who could pay for education have always had the option of schools or, especially for girls, home-based education with governesses and private tutors. Home education is just another form of private education.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor
The common complaint of those who are homeschooled is the lack of contact with other children.
What percentage of them complain? All the homeschooled children I know are completely satisfied with the arrangement.
They participate in organized sports, choirs and other music groups, drama groups, etc. They also have time to play with the kids in their neighborhood because they don't have to spend time on homework. What's not to like?
Moo
I don't know what percentage of them complain - it would probably be pretty difficult to find out. But at least two people who were homeschooled have complained about the arrangement, on this very thread. Do we count?
Of course you count. However, my statement was about all the homeschooled children I knew. It was not meant to apply to every homeschooled child.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
This goes to the point that many seem to be making - that the point of public schooling is largely socialization as defined by the current powers-that-be.
Indeed. And that's every bit as much of a "brainwash them into our own way of looking at things" situation as they're accusing homeschooling of being.
Of course, some go even further than that, and advocate for fully comprehensive (in the UK sense) education for all because they reason that if rich kids have to become friends with poor kids then maybe they'll grow up supporting socialist policies that help those poor kids. It's the ultimate in trying to use the education system to further your own political ends, and yet somehow they don't seem to have a problem with it...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Doc Tor:
You are, of course objectively wrong regarding the Democrats (though I like the cut of Elizabeth Warren's gib). And we care (at least, I do) because language is actually important to us, and painting extremists as moderates and vice versa gets our goat.
The political spectrum is relative. If the United States and the United Kingdom united country, your views would be on the fringe. Mine would be relatively mainstream. Lib-Dems, Democrat, and some Tories would make up the Left. Moderate Republicans, UKIP, and more conservative Tories would make up the Right. Labor would be the Far Left. The Conservative wing of the Republican Party would be the Far Right.
I say that for two reasons. Your claims about a objective political spectrum are nonsense. Two, I don't care how my views appear to British Lefties anymore than you care how your views appear to the Tea Party
quote:
originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, to suggest that BA's case is reasonable is misleading, since they've argued that a teaching degree/diploma is more or less worthless, that parents are better teachers of academic subjects than people who have actually studied those subjects, and that the vast majority of parents know what sort of schooling is best for their children and make those decisions based on high-minded, educated principles.
Wow a post consisting entirely of strawmen and begging the question
I know many teachers including an aunt and sister who say education classes are mostly worthless. When I was training to be a teacher and substitute teaching, I took an informal poll of the teachers I met and the results surprised me. That said. Teacher education trains you to be a classroom teacher in a public school or it's private equivalent. I have no problem with public and private schools requiring certification before being put in that environment. Parents who homeschool aren't teaching multiple classes of 20 plus children. By the way, if know of an objective standard of evaluation acceptable to teachers, please let us know. The NEA goes batshit crazy every time the idea is mentioned.
What defines studying a subject? Yes, a parent could know more about a subject area than a teacher who formally studied the subject. That's just a fact. I've seen it.
Yes, I maintain parents are in the best position to make decisions about the education of their children. So far, I haven't seen any evidence to convince me otherwise. The arguments against homeschooling on this thread have seemed at times contradictory.
quote:
originally posted by Doc Tor:
Since all those things are not just contentious, but in many cases demonstrably false, BA's case is not reasonable, but ideologically driven despite of the facts.
I missed the demonstration.
Ideologically driven says the Socialist primary teacher. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Pot meet kettle.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
This goes to the point that many seem to be making - that the point of public schooling is largely socialization as defined by the current powers-that-be.
Indeed. And that's every bit as much of a "brainwash them into our own way of looking at things" situation as they're accusing homeschooling of being.
Of course, some go even further than that, and advocate for fully comprehensive (in the UK sense) education for all because they reason that if rich kids have to become friends with poor kids then maybe they'll grow up supporting socialist policies that help those poor kids. It's the ultimate in trying to use the education system to further your own political ends, and yet somehow they don't seem to have a problem with it...
It's certainly true that comprehensive schooling doesn't turn the children of the better off into socialists but staying amongst "your own kind" is poor preparation for life too. Meeting people from the elite public schools was quite a surprise to me but almost as much for those who had been to minor public schools.
Don't preparatory and fee-paying schools also use a different education system for political ends too?
[ 20. May 2014, 12:44: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
justlooking: quote:
Mass state-provided education is a fairly recent development in the UK.
Mass state-provided education may be recent, but schooling isn't. There's a school just down the road from me that was founded in the 7th century. Grammar schools were originally run by the church; after the dissolution of the monasteries they continued as independent foundations and endowing a grammar school was a popular act of charity in the 16th and 17th century. For poorer people there were dame schools which (if you were lucky) taught the basic 'three Rs'; these were held in the teacher's house and at worst were simply childminding services with no education provided. The Church often ran elementary schools for children of the parish, which is why there are so many faith schools in England; when primary/elementary education was nationalised in the late 19th century the C of E retained influence over schools it had founded.
Public education in Scotland was and is a lot more egalitarian; the Church of Scotland ran most schools until 1872 when it turned its schools over to the state.
So you are correct in saying that compulsory, (mostly) state-provided education is a relatively recent innovation. But this does not mean that schools themselves are a recent innovation; far from it.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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