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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Homeschooling
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It's certainly true that comprehensive schooling doesn't turn the children of the better off into socialists but staying amongst "your own kind" is poor preparation for life too.
It depends on what you mean by "life", I guess. Ultra-expensive schools like Eton practically exist to make sure the students "stay amongst their own kind", yet a great many of their alumni do very well for themselves in life.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The political spectrum is relative. If the United States and the United Kingdom united country, your views would be on the fringe. Mine would be relatively mainstream. Lib-Dems, Democrat, and some Tories would make up the Left. Moderate Republicans, UKIP, and more conservative Tories would make up the Right. Labor would be the Far Left. The Conservative wing of the Republican Party would be the Far Right.
Keep telling yourself that... my political views are firmly in the mainstream European social democratic tradition. Your views barely make it to mainstream Conservative thought.
And yes, I am an ideologue. But I do let how the world actually is influence what's possible.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by JaneR:
So you are correct in saying that compulsory, (mostly) state-provided education is a relatively recent innovation. But this does not mean that schools themselves are a recent innovation; far from it.
That was her point. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
So you are correct in saying that compulsory, (mostly) state-provided education is a relatively recent innovation. But this does not mean that schools themselves are a recent innovation; far from it. [/QB]
I never said they were. This is what I said:
quote:
People who could pay for education have always had the option of schools or, especially for girls, home-based education with governesses and private tutors. Home education is just another form of private education.
Compulsory education and the mass provision of state funded schools is fairly recent. The original intention was to educate the masses up to an elementary level of competence. It wasn't to ensure every child would 'fulfil their potential' as schools now claim to do. The rhetoric's changed but the underlying principle is the same - process the masses through a regulated system as cheaply as possible.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The political spectrum is relative. If the United States and the United Kingdom united country, your views would be on the fringe. Mine would be relatively mainstream. Lib-Dems, Democrat, and some Tories would make up the Left. Moderate Republicans, UKIP, and more conservative Tories would make up the Right. Labor would be the Far Left. The Conservative wing of the Republican Party would be the Far Right.
Keep telling yourself that... my political views are firmly in the mainstream European social democratic tradition. Your views barely make it to mainstream Conservative thought.
And yes, I am an ideologue. But I do let how the world actually is influence what's possible.
Who cares if your views are in the mainstream of the European Social Democratic tradition? The United States isn't in Europe. Europe isn't the center of the world anymore. Get over it.
As to the second paragraph
I agree completely with your first sentence
The second...? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
justlooking: OK, I see what you're getting at now. But the rhetoric has changed partly because the 'basic level of competence' has changed. Back in 1880 you were considered literate if you could sign your own name and read simple documents, and most illiterates could function effectively in society (being innumerate was more of a handicap). Nowadays you have to be fluent in spoken and written language; able to evaluate the reliability of competing information sources; capable of using tools such as web browsers. The Scottish Government's current definition of literacy is "The ability to read, write and use numeracy, to handle information, to express ideas and opinions, to make decisions and solve problems, as family members, workers, citizens and lifelong learners." (full document here)
[ 20. May 2014, 13:27: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Don't preparatory and fee-paying schools also use a different education system for political ends too?
Mine didn't.
Our politics teacher was firmly on the left wing of the Labour party (as a member of which he had stood for local election). I remember the absolute, unconcealed delight with which he followed the events leading up to Thatcher's resignation.
Because he was an excellent teacher, he also encouraged us to form and express our own opinions, of course, but I'm sure I learned more about socialism, and had a more persuasive case for socialism presented to me, at a fee-paying school than I did from any other source (at least until I started reading ken on the Ship).
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
justlooking: OK, I see what you're getting at now. But the rhetoric has changed partly because the 'basic level of competence' has changed. Back in 1880 you were considered literate if you could sign your own name and read simple documents, and most illiterates could function effectively in society (being innumerate was more of a handicap). Nowadays you have to be fluent in spoken and written language; able to evaluate the reliability of competing information sources; capable of using tools such as web browsers. The Scottish Government's current definition of literacy is "The ability to read, write and use numeracy, to handle information, to express ideas and opinions, to make decisions and solve problems, as family members, workers, citizens and lifelong learners." (full document here)
I'm not sure what your point is. From the document linked it seems the Scottish Government has identified a problem with some of those who've 'benefited' from the school system
quote:
■ considers the scale and nature of
the problem:
– the majority of the population are satisfied
with their skills for the uses they
encounter
– up to 800,000 adults appear to have very
low skills
– 500,000 assess their own skills as poor or
moderate
– the importance of literacy and numeracy as
underpinning skills is invisible to employers
– many unemployed people do not know if
they have the literacy and numeracy skills
for their choice of job
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
how on earth do you measure whether someone is "thinking for themselves"?
GCSE RE allocates at least a third of the marks to this. I requires the student to state various views, evaluate them and then say what they think.
History used to do the same though I am not sure how much it has changed since Gradgrind Gove took over. As he is a tory, I doubt that he wants anyone to think for themself.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
One problem with this thread is that people have different ideas about what homeschooling is like. In fact, there are a huge number of styles of homeschooling, and a huge number of different motives for doing it.
I can't think of a single flat statement about homeschooling which would cover all situations.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Thank you, leo. You've just made my point for me. You've also explained very succinctly why parents who choose to homeschool choose to homeschool.
In context, you are saying that parents have the right to deny children an education in order to stop them growing up into anything other than clones of their parents.
Though I should, perhaps, qualify that - as clones of their parents in whatever current fad they are following. (Since some posting on this thread have changed religious denominations of widely differing positions at least three times before the age of thirty - which makes me wonder whether they are stable enough to pass on anything other than their genes to their children.)
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
justlooking, I'm not sure what your point is either. Historically, equal education for girls is also an innovation, but presumably you are not suggesting we should ditch that.
The point I was trying to make (apparently not very successfully) is that the definition of 'basic competence' has changed considerably in the last 150-odd years.
The document I linked to is about adult education for adults with low literacy, so obviously it is concerned with people who did not do very well in the school system. The first part of the bit you quoted says that quote:
... the majority of the population are satisfied with their skills for the uses they encounter...
I don't see how you get from there to a claim that all schools are bad and the only solution is to yank your child out of the state education system and do it yourself, which is what some people (notably Beeswax Altar) seem to be claiming.
As I said earlier: I myself would consider homeschooling only as a last resort. That doesn't mean I completely approve of the English education system as it is: there is always room for improvement. Reducing the number of ideologically-driven innovations such as the EBacc would be a good start. But sending your child to school doesn't mean abdicating responsibility for her (or his) education and leaving it all up to the school.
I prefer to work against the Powers that Be from inside the system...
[ 20. May 2014, 14:24: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
You are welcome to expose your children to any religion you like.
So does that mean that you don't want your children exposed to anything with which you disagree?
If so, that is exactly why children need to be rescued from families with closed minds and narrow opinions.
No, it means I think that I should be the one to decide what they are and aren't exposed to and in what manner.
Not you.
quote:
originally posted by leo:
Though I should, perhaps, qualify that - as clones of their parents in whatever current fad they are following.
I doubt that will happen. If it does, they are their parents children. Your argument only works if I believe teachers such as yourself are doing anything other than indoctrinating them in their own views or at least those found acceptable by the state.
quote:
originally posted by leo:
Not ridiculous. Sinful in my opinion since that is indoctrination, not education.
Your children don't belong to you. They are human beings in their own right who happen to be on load to you.
This bloke says it better.
Who loaned me my daugher? The state?
And, see this is why I wouldn't want a secular school educating my child in religion. The opinion of Kahlil Gibran (and I know he is beloved by lefties of a certain age)is completely irrelevant in a discussion about the Christian view of sin. Disagree though they may on any number of things, most Roman Catholics and all fundamentalists know that. Anybody teaching otherwise would be teaching their own understanding of Christianity while pretending to be impartial. I worry even more about my daughter being indoctrinated by teachers who arrogantly believe their views really are impartial.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
To your first point...I'll just take your word for it that OFTED is a good judged of impartiality.
As to your second point...yet another reasons why I wouldn't want my daughter taught religion at a secular school.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
what is so ridiculous about parents wanting to teach their views to their own children
Not ridiculous. Sinful in my opinion since that is indoctrination, not education.
I can only assume that if you had children you would deliberately leave Chick Tracts and BNP pamphlets lying around for them in order to make sure they didn't grow up merely parroting your own views?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Beeswax Altar: quote:
Who loaned me my daugher? The state?
Well, as a Christian I would say God if I thought she had been loaned to me. But she is actually a person in her own right.
Children are not the property of their parents.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One problem with this thread is that people have different ideas about what homeschooling is like. In fact, there are a huge number of styles of homeschooling, and a huge number of different motives for doing it.
I can't think of a single flat statement about homeschooling which would cover all situations.
Moo
I would agree, with caveats however.
Yes, there are a potentially huge number of reasons, but three principal ones.
Quality of education, desire to emphasize personal world view and segregation (class/culture as well as race).
And even the best motives do not inherently provide the best results. Given that most here would agree not all teachers can teach well, and the homeschool proponents would seem to think this percentage is high, it directly follows that at least the same percentage of parents would fail as well.
The notion that fulfilling a biological imperative conveys expertise is ridiculous. If this were true, everyone who eats would be a good chef, nutritionist and farmer.
[ 20. May 2014, 15:13: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The notion that fulfilling a biological imperative conveys expertise is ridiculous. If this were true, everyone who eats would be a good chef, nutritionist and farmer.
On the other hand, very few people would argue that the State should have total control over the exact menu that each and every person should follow every day, to the extent that if it decrees sprouts to be the finest food in existence then every person will eat sprerouts at least once every week.
In the analogy, all the homeschoolers are saying is they don't like sprouts, they have no intention of eating them at any time, and the government shouldn't have the right to force them to do so if they don't want to.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Fourth, the Tea Party is primarily concerned with the federal government and not local government.
Hah. I wish that were the case. In my state they have just succeeded in getting all our local libraries' budgets cut in half. Libraries are a tiny, tiny part of any tax structure- they cost way less than schools or public safety- but they always seem to be a target for anti-tax types.
Again, an anecdote, but the only tea partier I've spoken with recently was furious about state-level regulation of liquor licenses. Uncle Sugar this, gubmint-trying-to-steal-more-money-from-us that.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Who cares if your views are in the mainstream of the European Social Democratic tradition? The United States isn't in Europe. Europe isn't the center of the world anymore. Get over it.
This whole tangent developed because you seem to have forgotten there's a mass of land east of the Atlantic, and you're talking to some of the residents there. As a result, your 'mainstream for the US' views come over as Right-wing batshit crazy to some of us, as I was helpfully pointing out...
Of course, it's only old Europe that thinks state education with qualified teachers is a good thing. Oh, wait.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Beeswax Altar and Doc Tor: further posts from either of you along recent lines will be construed as evidence you are trying to spark off a pond war. I strongly advise you (and everyone else) not to attempt to adduce any such evidence.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Beeswax Altar: quote:
Who loaned me my daugher? The state?
Well, as a Christian I would say God if I thought she had been loaned to me. But she is actually a person in her own right.
Children are not the property of their parents.
I would agree. However, nothing in my understanding of Christianity implies that parents must allow the state to educate their children. Absolutely nothing at all. Frankly, I would move to another country before being forced to send my daughter to a state school where somebody who believes Christianity teaches that the state is more responsible than the family for educating children gets to teach as authoritative his or her rather eccentric view of Christianity.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Frankly, I would move to another country before being forced to send my daughter to a state school where somebody who believes Christianity teaches that the state is more responsible than the family for educating children gets to teach as authoritative his or her rather eccentric view of Christianity.
But, state schools wouldn't have someone teaching Christianity, certainly not as an authoritative source of information about Christianity. A good school would provide facts about major religions, because in our multi-cultural and multi-faith society we need to have some basic understanding of what others believe if we're to live together - otherwise you end up with people believing nonsense such as "all muslims want to be suicide bombers and enter paradise". So, you won't have a teacher proclaiming with authority "Christians believe x, y and z and it's absolutely true. If you suggest otherwise you'll fail the test". You should have "some Christians believe x, and this is why, others believe y. Jews believe z" and so on.
It's not the job of a teacher to indoctrinate pupils into a particular religion. That's the role of a pastor, minister or priest and parents.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
On the other hand, very few people would argue that the State should have total control over the exact menu that each and every person should follow every day, to the extent that if it decrees sprouts to be the finest food in existence then every person will eat sprerouts at least once every week.
But no one is arguing this. To continue the analogy, the State is attempting to provide a balanced meal.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
In the analogy, all the homeschoolers are saying is they don't like sprouts, they have no intention of eating them at any time, and the government shouldn't have the right to force them to do so if they don't want to.
I disagree. It is more akin to some saying the meal plan lacks in some desired element. Some think this element is more quality ingredients, some think this means a battenberg only menu.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
My response to that would probably be deemed a personal attack on a particular shipmate. A personal attack wouldn't be my intention. However, the hosts and administrators would probably have to interpret it that way.
So...
Having both taught and sat through presentations on religion, a neutral presentation of facts is very religion. My way of teaching Christianity was threefold. I tried to give a basic history of Christianity, taught the controversies that lead to the development of the Nicene Creed, and then answered the question about where all the denominations came from in the first place. I tried to present it all as impartially as possible. Would every Christian present think I gave their church proper consideration? Probably not
Take the Reformation as an example. I sat through several lectures on the Reformation during my academic career. It was only as an adult that I even considered the possibility that Martin Luther wasn't 100% in the right. Why? Because the way the story was always told from a Protestant prospective. The teacher's doing the teaching probably thought they were teaching the facts and nothing but the facts.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted lilBuddha:
I disagree. It is more akin to some saying the meal plan lacks in some desired element. Some think this element is more quality ingredients, some think this means a battenberg only menu.
For the record, I despise Michael Bloomberg as a politician.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The teacher's doing the teaching probably thought they were teaching the facts and nothing but the facts.
History is particularly problematic and not merely from a religious angle. However, to imply homeschooling would be less likely to be biased is foolish.
[ 20. May 2014, 16:47: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted lilBuddha:
I disagree. It is more akin to some saying the meal plan lacks in some desired element. Some think this element is more quality ingredients, some think this means a battenberg only menu.
For the record, I despise Michael Bloomberg as a politician.
For the record, that is an irrelevant non-sequitur.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I'm not implying that at all. I'm implying that bias being inevitable I can see parents wanting to choose the bias. Once the child becomes an adult, the child will be free to reject all they've been taught as children. So, it behooves parents who homeschool to make an attempt to see that all subjects are presented fairly. Still, I would prefer a school that affirmed not contradicted what I was trying to teach at home. Again, my preference would be a private/parochial school.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
It is not that we completely disagree in concept, but we likely disagree in practice.
I think school is not the place for religion, nor the extremes of ideology.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted lilBuddha:
I disagree. It is more akin to some saying the meal plan lacks in some desired element. Some think this element is more quality ingredients, some think this means a battenberg only menu.
For the record, I despise Michael Bloomberg as a politician.
For the record, that is an irrelevant non-sequitur.
I said it half jokingly. However, given the context, it makes perfect sense. Michael Bloomberg came off as an elitist jerk who wanted to micromanage the life of New Yorkers down to telling them how much soda they could purchase. Same goes with telling parents how they have to educate their children.
States do offer a GED in place of a high school diploma. All the homeschooled students I've met (even the least academically inclined among them) had not problem passing it. And, if homeschoolers don't pass the GED or graduate from an accredited program, how is that any different from the children who drop out of public school every day?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yes, there are a potentially huge number of reasons, but three principal ones.
Quality of education, desire to emphasize personal world view and segregation (class/culture as well as race).
No one I know who has homeschooled has done it for any of those reasons. They have all done it because the local school was not working out well for their particular child. In this post comet gives her reason for homeschooling. quote:
We have a great school, here. There are problems, but our previous school system had much more worrying problems. My child, however, has a severe social phobia that has gotten really crippling since he hit puberty. Therefore, this over achieving brainiac took to skipping school. We tried everything, and even the psych agreed that for now, homeschooling is the best option until we can get his phobia under control.
I don't know what percentage of homeschooling parents do it for one of the reasons lilBuddha cited, or for the reason I have given. I don't think anyone knows. I don't like the assumption that homeschoolers' motives are necessarily bad.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
And, if homeschoolers don't pass the GED or graduate from an accredited program
At least in these parts, if you homeschool, you are the school. You are, in fact, precisely a very small private school. This means that you decide the graduation requirements for your children, and you produce transcripts and grades to accompany your kids' college applications, just like any other school does.
The GED is for people who didn't complete high school. If you are a homeschooled high school student in good standing, you graduate from your (home) high school and get a high school diploma like anyone else.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I don't like the assumption that homeschoolers' motives are necessarily bad.
Moo
Moat of us are not saying this, I am certainly not. I am arguing against the supposition that homeschooling is inherently good.
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
However, given the context, it makes perfect sense. Michael Bloomberg came off as an elitist jerk who wanted to micromanage the life of New Yorkers down to telling them how much soda they could purchase. Same goes with telling parents how they have to educate their children.
Slight difference. Bloomberg is trying to regulate the behaviour of adults. Our societies both accept a degree of regulation* and that it is acceptable to regulate children to a higher degree.
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
States do offer a GED in place of a high school diploma. All the homeschooled students I've met (even the least academically inclined among them) had not problem passing it. And, if homeschoolers don't pass the GED or graduate from an accredited program, how is that any different from the children who drop out of public school every day?
Some universities look more sharply at GED, according to my friend Google. More is needed to gain acceptance. So, it would appear equally poor as compared to a more formal school.
*Though we argue as to the degree.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
Many universities, even the Ivy League, are open to home schoolers.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Your argument only works if I believe teachers such as yourself are doing anything other than indoctrinating them in their own views or at least those found acceptable by the state...... their own understanding of Christianity while pretending to be impartial.
My subject is not regulated by 'thye state'.
Each local authority has a SACRE which decides the syllabus - SACRE has four committees:
Church of England
Other denominations and religions
Teachers
Elected councillors across the 3 main parties
Additionally co-optations from Higher Ed.
Nothing may be taught unless all 4 committees are unanimous.
I have have sat on various SACREs for 35 years and they work very well.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Many universities, even the Ivy League, are open to home schoolers.
Yes, but they require more.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
My way of teaching Christianity was threefold. I tried to give a basic history of Christianity, taught the controversies that lead to the development of the Nicene Creed, and then answered the question about where all the denominations came from in the first place. I tried to present it all as impartially as possible. Would every Christian present think I gave their church proper consideration? Probably not .....
teacher's doing the teaching probably thought they were teaching the facts and nothing but the facts.
The apostrophe in 'teacher's' renders this phrase difficult to understand but I am concerned about any teacher who merely teaches ';facts'. That is information. Education only starts when students can evaluate.
As for the Christianity description - nothing about Jesus. No discussion of theodicy, ethics, do miracles happen.
Woefully inadequate.
Which is why teaching should be done by teachers.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Many universities, even the Ivy League, are open to home schoolers.
Yes, but they require more.
No they don't. That just says there's more weight on standardized tests. We all took loads of SAT subject tests and got extra recommendations to apply to colleges like Yale, it's just as "suggested" for students who go to traditional schools.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by leo:
I have have sat on various SACREs for 35 years and they work very well
Oh, well, that proves it then.
quote:
originally posted by leo:
Woefully inadequate.
Thank you leo. Knowing that you feel I did an inadequate job of teaching makes me feel much better about how I chose to teach the subject. I dare say it's one of the nicest compliments I've ever received.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yes, there are a potentially huge number of reasons, but three principal ones.
Quality of education, desire to emphasize personal world view and segregation (class/culture as well as race).
No one I know who has homeschooled has done it for any of those reasons. They have all done it because the local school was not working out well for their particular child. In this post comet gives her reason for homeschooling. quote:
We have a great school, here. There are problems, but our previous school system had much more worrying problems. My child, however, has a severe social phobia that has gotten really crippling since he hit puberty. Therefore, this over achieving brainiac took to skipping school. We tried everything, and even the psych agreed that for now, homeschooling is the best option until we can get his phobia under control.
I don't know what percentage of homeschooling parents do it for one of the reasons lilBuddha cited, or for the reason I have given. I don't think anyone knows. I don't like the assumption that homeschoolers' motives are necessarily bad.
Moo
My reasons for removing my child from the school system were to do with wanting to ensure that he understood what was important in life and what really mattered about people. I felt the school system with its emphasis on conformity, competitiveness and 'rules for the sake of rules' was diminishing to children and taught them to be judgemental about others. Also, the local schools where we lived at that time were, frankly, absolute shite, which had a strong bearing on our decision.
When it came to secondary school my son was very happy with the idea of home education and joining Education Otherwise. He gained a wider circle of friends than he would have had if he'd gone through the school system and a much broader education, which included experiences of acting and filming. Like many other home educated people he gained all the qualifications he needed to do what he wanted and is now a professional, 'middle-class' family man who goes to work in suits. During his teens he had long hair, ear piercings and dressed in 'heavy metal' clothes - none of which would have been tolerated in school. He set his own timetable and made his own decisions about what he wanted to learn. He's grown up confident and articulate with a strong work ethic and moral values - he's also a Christian.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Many universities, even the Ivy League, are open to home schoolers.
Yes, but they require more.
No they don't. That just says there's more weight on standardized tests. We all took loads of SAT subject tests and got extra recommendations to apply to colleges like Yale, it's just as "suggested" for students who go to traditional schools.
From my link:
quote:
Standardized test scores hold relatively more weight for home-schooled applicants. If you are a home-schooler and you feel confident about your ability to do well on the exams, we advise you to demonstrate your abilities in various areas by taking more than the required two SAT Subject Tests.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Before coming here to Kenya I taught in the UK state sector for 25 years. I remember being appalled during conversations with some acquaintances who were home-schooling but also with others who had started "Christian" schools, basically because of the appalling curriculum they all used.
When I first started teaching Reception (before graduating to key stage 3 SEBD boys ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ) the teaching methods and topics still had a strong child-centred ethos, so different from the old-fashioned prep school education I had received.
I was and remain passionate about teaching that encourages exploration and thinking and harnesses pupils' own interests as well as introducing them to a breadth of new ideas and skills.
Over the years, State education became more and more prescriptive in both its curriculum and approach so I was both sad and glad to leave and would have to be honest and say that I now understand how home-schooling could really work in quite a few situations that I can visualise.
All I hope is that wherever they are the children get the curriculum and the learning environment
that they deserve.
The shortcomings of any educational approach can be easily offset by parents who are committed to broadening their children's horizons.
[ 20. May 2014, 19:15: Message edited by: MrsBeaky ]
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
From my link:
quote:
Standardized test scores hold relatively more weight for home-schooled applicants. If you are a home-schooler and you feel confident about your ability to do well on the exams, we advise you to demonstrate your abilities in various areas by taking more than the required two SAT Subject Tests.
In other words, we don't pay much attention to grades assigned by Mom and Dad - basically because it's difficult for parents to be objective about their child's college application.
In other news, your SAT scores, AP test results and the like are worth more than your high school teacher's opinion.
Similarly, the letters required of home school students are the same as those required of other applicants - there's just an extra indication that Mom and Dad might not be terribly unbiased referees.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Standardized test scores hold relatively more weight for home-schooled applicants. If you are a home-schooler and you feel confident about your ability to do well on the exams, we advise you to demonstrate your abilities in various areas by taking more than the required two SAT Subject Tests.
My bold for emphasis
Homeschool GED =/= highschool diploma.
There are jobs which require a university degree, rather than merely a demonstration of proficiency. Why? In part because it shows one has maintained a level of discipline for at least four years. This is an indication above merely taking a test.
ISTM, the same concept is in place here.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Standardized test scores hold relatively more weight for home-schooled applicants. If you are a home-schooler and you feel confident about your ability to do well on the exams, we advise you to demonstrate your abilities in various areas by taking more than the required two SAT Subject Tests.
My bold for emphasis
Homeschool GED =/= highschool diploma.
There are jobs which require a university degree, rather than merely a demonstration of proficiency. Why? In part because it shows one has maintained a level of discipline for at least four years. This is an indication above merely taking a test.
ISTM, the same concept is in place here.
I suspect it's actually a case of "I can't be bothered to wade through all the applications from every sixth-former with a bit of gumption who could actually do this job so I'll introduce some qualifications that have got to be achieved before I'll bother reading the application form."
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Of course. If applications exceed available spots, requirements will become more rigorous. But notice that these are not applied to everyone, but to homeschoolers.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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