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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: "Secret" evangelical leaders meeting
chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The fact that none of the extant tweets and Facebook posts reveal who the organisers are.

Well, it may well not be a single group or organisation and therefore not particularly lend itself to being described pithily. Especially true if the attendees themselves have more name recognition than the organisation(s) concerned.

I've attended a fairly large number of meetings that fell into that category. It doesn't necessarily have to be sinister. I mean, these people have to find some way of filling their time.

Besides, by the very nature of evangelicalism this meeting will either lead to fairly public actions, or it won't. In either case I can't see the problem. It's not like a government meeting a secret lobby group where supporting laws can be buried fairly deeply inside some entirely different piece of legislation.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by sidefall:
Even though Oasis is out of the EA, Chalke is very much a senior evangelical leader, and possibly still an EA personal member, so it would be quite a slur not to invite him. Unless, of course, they've concluded he's no longer an evangelical.

A lot of people wouldn't see Steve Chalke as an evangelical however much he uses the word of himself and his beliefs.

IF it is the EA running it then I wouldn't be surprised if Chalke isn't there.

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Doc Tor
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Gavin Calver is there, according to his tweet.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by sidefall:
Whilst I don't agree with everything Wright says, I regard him as the greatest new testament scholar of recent years. I think his rejection by some is a sad sign of the anti-intellectualism that exists in parts of the church.

Wright greater than F F Bruce? They're not even on the same playing field - Bruce is way ahead.

Mind you - he won't be there. First of all, he's Brethren; then rather more problematic, he died a few years ago.

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Schroedinger's cat

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On evangelical diversity, I think the evangelical wing has always had diversity - there have been those who would consider themselves evangelical from the open end and the more fundamentalist end. Over the years, this diversity has tended to be celebrated, as an indication of the willingness of evangelicals to be open-minded, to learn from others and to accept differing positions.

Incidentally, the diversity is also present in other streams of Christianity - the traditionalists and the liberals, however, they tend not to celebrate it as much.

What I have noticed in the last decade or so is a change. Instead of diversity, there is division. The issue of homosexuality is a touchstone for this, but the division is actually far greater. It is between the open, tolerant, accepting evangelicals, and the more strident, literalist, fundamentals, and as these groups have stretched further apart, they have lost their tolerance of each other.

And, I should point out that I believe this is also the case in other streams.

It may be that there has been someone, or some group, with a real desire to stop this division, who wants to seek for a degree of unity, and so has called for as many of those they consider to be leaders and influencers to find a solution.

Or it may be that one side of this division or other wants to make a declaration on what evangelicalism is. To exclude those who cannot accept it.

But I do think that there has been a change in the theological model (and I have a started blog on this, in the works, because I think it is far more significant that some people believe).

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by sidefall:
Whilst I don't agree with everything Wright says, I regard him as the greatest new testament scholar of recent years. I think his rejection by some is a sad sign of the anti-intellectualism that exists in parts of the church.

Wright greater than F F Bruce? They're not even on the same playing field - Bruce is way ahead.

Mind you - he won't be there. First of all, he's Brethren; then rather more problematic, he died a few years ago.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Is the Salvation Army leader there, I wonder?

Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist :
quote:
I think his best chance of being at the Norton Park Hotel during this meeting, is to apply for one of the vacancies they've advertised. Has he any experience as a sous-chef....or as a cleaner?
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Is it 'cos he is black?


No - it's because he is the leader of the Salvation Army.

Oh, I just wondered why, in your mind, the leader of an evangelical church in the UK would be there merely as a chef or a cleaner and not as a church leader...

[ 17. June 2014, 16:04: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

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Gamaliel
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I think the key phrase there was 'recent years, ExclamationMark. FF Bruce wasn't so 'recent'.

He died in 1990 but was publishing during the 1980s. Hardly recent. Wright's published ouevre begins about 1991 I think.

So perhaps he's 'channelling' Bruce ... [Biased]

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Oh, I just wondered why, in your mind, the leader of an evangelical church in the UK would be there merely as a chef or a cleaner and not as a church leader...

Maybe because they don't consider that what they mean by 'evangelical' is what he means by 'evangelical' ?
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Pyx_e

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I'm not there.

Pyx_e

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Gamaliel
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D'you know, this thread has made me realise how post-evangelical I've become because a lot of the names don't mean anything to me and also because I find myself not giving a monkey's what, if anything, they come out of their conclave having decided ...

If indeed they do decide anything ...

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Pyx_e

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You are just grumpy because they did not invite you, at least I turned them down.

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
D'you know, this thread has made me realise how post-evangelical I've become because a lot of the names don't mean anything to me and also because I find myself not giving a monkey's what, if anything, they come out of their conclave having decided ...

If indeed they do decide anything ...

Ditto.

With the exception that I do care about whether they will decide on a strategy that they intend to try and enforce on others.

But on the whole, it just seems like en exercise in mutual puffing up of egos: "we're at a secret meeting, with Chatham House Rules and stuff. We're soooo important." Bleagh!

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The Rhythm Methodist
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Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:
Is it 'cos he is black?



Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
quote:
No - it's because he is the leader of the Salvation Army.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:

Oh, I just wondered why, in your mind, the leader of an evangelical church in the UK would be there merely as a chef or a cleaner and not as a church leader...

You are entitled to wonder....though I don't much care for the insinuation that my comment was racially motivated. In point of fact, I wasn't even aware of your leader's ethnicity (strangely, SA leadership is not quite as significant to me, as it is to you). Furthermore, I am at a loss to know why a person's skin-tone should ever be significant, or why you felt the need to bring that up.

I am quite interested that you proclaim him 'leader of an evangelical church', as I wasn't aware that the SA had formally adopted this title, or that it had been generally accepted. I seem to remember a recent thread on that subject (where you appeared to be trying to muster support for that concept) but I didn't realise it was a 'done deal'.

Going back to the attendance (or otherwise) of your leader - I stand by what I said. If it transpires that he is indeed a guest at this meeting, I shall admit that I was wrong. It will then be obvious that his best chance of being in that hotel during the meeting was not to get a job there. Do let me know if a retraction is appropriate.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
merely as a chef or a cleaner and not as a church leader...

Met him at an ecumenical event a couple of months back. Really good chap

[code]

[ 17. June 2014, 17:16: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think the key phrase there was 'recent years, ExclamationMark. FF Bruce wasn't so 'recent'.

He died in 1990 but was publishing during the 1980s. Hardly recent. Wright's published ouevre begins about 1991 I think.

So perhaps he's 'channelling' Bruce ... [Biased]

1990 is recent to some of us, old bean
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

With the exception that I do care about whether they will decide on a strategy that they intend to try and enforce on others.

Well, the ones who are likely to do so would have done this anyway, the ones who wouldn't won't, and in any case any dissenters can set up their own splinter of evangelicalism.

As for the rest, see above, I don't consider this a threat in terms of some kind of secret agenda. Actually reflecting on it a little, it seems more like a further Americanisation of evangelicalism (these kinds of meetings are quite common across the pond).

In any case, in the given context it seems like an evangelical version of this (language warning): http://www.oblomovka.com/wp/2003/10/13/the-register/

[ 17. June 2014, 16:52: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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Gamaliel
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1990 is recent to me too, ExclamationMark. 1991 is just that wee bit more recent ... and that's when Wright appears to have started publishing things.

Wright's still publishing things now. Which is even more recent again.

[Biased] [Razz]

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Sipech
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Wright's still publishing things now. Which is even more recent again.

[Biased] [Razz]

That's a bit of an understatment. I think he's published 2 books since I started reading Paul and the Faithfulness of God (just 35 pages to go though). [Ultra confused]

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sidefall
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
D'you know, this thread has made me realise how post-evangelical I've become because a lot of the names don't mean anything to me and also because I find myself not giving a monkey's what, if anything, they come out of their conclave having decided ...

If indeed they do decide anything ...

I've only heard of a few of them as well.

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Gavin Calver is there, according to his tweet.

Thanks Doc, I think that's the 12th name. Only 88 to go [Smile]

Fellow shipmates, can I ask you to press the flesh, work your sources, check the blogs, tweets, and facebook updates, and let's see if we can sniff out a few more names.

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mousethief

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Is this the equivalent of an Evangelical ecumenical council? If they decide something will it be binding, or merely of historical footnote interest? (Or...?) Will they declare new doctrine? Chastise some American Evangelicals for worshiping Ayn Rand? Declare the Reformation over and ask for re-integration into the Catholic Church?

The world awaits their deliberations with attenuated aspiration.

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Is this the equivalent of an Evangelical ecumenical council? If they decide something will it be binding, or merely of historical footnote interest? (Or...?) Will they declare new doctrine? Chastise some American Evangelicals for worshiping Ayn Rand? Declare the Reformation over and ask for re-integration into the Catholic Church?

The world awaits their deliberations with attenuated aspiration.

More likely declare the Reformation unfinished. I don't like this. When Evangelical leaders meet, there's usually someone they want to beat up. And it's usually folks like me.

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Pyx_e

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Is this the equivalent of an Evangelical ecumenical council? If they decide something will it be binding, or merely of historical footnote interest? (Or...?) Will they declare new doctrine? Chastise some American Evangelicals for worshiping Ayn Rand? Declare the Reformation over and ask for re-integration into the Catholic Church?

The world awaits their deliberations with attenuated aspiration.

More likely declare the Reformation unfinished. I don't like this. When Evangelical leaders meet, there's usually someone they want to beat up. And it's usually folks like me.
I hear you but I think they know they are in the poo. I read this as a "what can we agree on and still self describe as evangelical?" meeting. Or "Why can't we all just get along because all this in fighting is killing us" meeting.

Of course they may just end up getting more reactionary, thereby proving the need for the meeting and their know inability to compromise. At which point I would go on holiday for a bit if I were you.

Love Pyx_e

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Higgs Bosun
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
When Evangelical leaders meet, there's usually someone they want to beat up. And it's usually folks like me.

You forget that is generally those who are closest to us whom we loathe the most. The people the con-evos really don't like are the open evos and especially the charismatic evos, who seem to have so much fun. Catholics and especially the Orthodox are viewed with bemused bafflement.
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sidefall
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
More likely declare the Reformation unfinished. I don't like this.

ecclesia reformata semper reformanda est

[ 17. June 2014, 19:11: Message edited by: sidefall ]

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I don't like this. When Evangelical leaders meet, there's usually someone they want to beat up. And it's usually folks like me.

But these people don't have magical powers! They've lost more battles than they've won in our culture. All you have to do is avoid them and their churches if you feel you have little in common with them. Other options are (usually) available.
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sidefall
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quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
You forget that is generally those who are closest to us whom we loathe the most. The people the con-evos really don't like are the open evos and especially the charismatic evos, who seem to have so much fun. Catholics and especially the Orthodox are viewed with bemused bafflement.

A truer thing was never said.

Seriously, I have been to the London Music Ministry conferences a few times, organised by ConEvos. It's fascinating, because these churches (such as St Helen's Bishopsgate) now have music groups ("worship bands" to some, but I don't like that phrase) and sing modern songs. I'd guess this is a 21st century development - 20 years ago it would probably have been unthinkable. A clear example of charismatic influence - if you can't beat them, join them!

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Steve Langton
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by sidefall;

quote:
Fellow shipmates, can I ask you to press the flesh, work your sources, check the blogs, tweets, and facebook updates, and let's see if we can sniff out a few more names.
I just checked the 'recent visitors' bit and there are an unusually large number of 'lurkers' - a number in the sort of bracket that I'm wondering; if you could trace the lurkers would that answer your call here....
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I don't like this. When Evangelical leaders meet, there's usually someone they want to beat up. And it's usually folks like me.

But these people don't have magical powers! They've lost more battles than they've won in our culture. All you have to do is avoid them and their churches if you feel you have little in common with them. Other options are (usually) available.
I would agree if they weren't busy rewriting our laws to criminalize building Mosques and making spontaneous miscarriage a felony and creating for-profit prisons.

Oh btw, they may look upon the Catholics with bemused indifference (or whatever the term was), but they're also busy adopting Catholic attitudes toward contraception, albeit without the philosophical underpinnings to back it up.

[ 17. June 2014, 20:02: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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SvitlanaV2
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mousethief

But these are British evangelicals we're talking about here. They don't have as much power as all that. Contraception isn't an issue - the British middle classes can't afford big families anyway. Muslims are just a fact of life in the cities, and have been for decades. Evangelicals and others who don't like that just go and live in less diverse parts of the country (unless they have to stay in London, in which case there really is no point in complaining).

I imagine that these church leaders are discussing the same kinds of things that all British church leaders are concerned about these days because British evangelicalism faces the same challenges as the other forms of Christianity. And just like in MOTR congregations, there's no guarantee that what happens in some meeting far away is going to set the grassroots on fire. OTOH, maybe the meeting in the OP will provide material for someone's book - it's hard to imagine that evangelicals won't want to comment on the event if it turns out to be really thought-provoking.

(BTW, I was assuming that Adeodatus was in the UK; I apologise if this isn't the case.)

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sidefall
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...if it turns out to be really thought-provoking.

That would be a first [Big Grin]

[ 17. June 2014, 21:46: Message edited by: sidefall ]

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
(BTW, I was assuming that Adeodatus was in the UK; I apologise if this isn't the case.)

I am, but when I said "folks like me" I didn't mean Catholic, Anglo- or otherwise; I meant the gays.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Of course they may just end up getting more reactionary, thereby proving the need for the meeting and their know inability to compromise. At which point I would go on holiday for a bit if I were you.

Already booked.

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sidefall
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OK, Rachel Jordan tweeted this afternoon

Great to catch up with @philpotter1 and talk @freshexpression : )

https://twitter.com/DrRachelJ/status/479015519287513088

Phil Potter is Fresh Expressions team leader. His twitter feed also references Rachel Jordan last week in connection with a Missioners Conference but given the timing of Rachel's tweet I reckon he's also in Winchester. I'm virtually certain he's charismatic evangelical - I think he might have originally been at St Michael le Belfry in David Watson's time (that would be over 30 years ago for the young ones).

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
I just checked the 'recent visitors' bit and there are an unusually large number of 'lurkers' - a number in the sort of bracket that I'm wondering; if you could trace the lurkers would that answer your call here....

Fascinating! 96 lurkers just now.
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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by sidefall:
OK, Rachel Jordan tweeted this afternoon

Great to catch up with @philpotter1 and talk @freshexpression : )

You see, the problem I have with all this is that I ask myself the question "what is the point of this drivel?" Who cares who she is talking to? It's a meaningless waste of time. But than I have that problem with 99.9% of Twatter (sic).

(BTW - unless he has changed significantly over the years, Phil Potter would certainly count as charismatic evangelical.)

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
(BTW, I was assuming that Adeodatus was in the UK; I apologise if this isn't the case.)

I am, but when I said "folks like me" I didn't mean Catholic, Anglo- or otherwise; I meant the gays.

I know that. It was mousethief who mentioned Catholics, so I responded to that.

The British churches that lobbied against SSM (and wasn't that more of a CofE and a RC struggle than a specifically evangelical one?) lost the fight, and I don't know why they'd waste any more time on the legalities. The issue now is surely theological and pastoral. I.e., it's an internal matter.

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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Lurkers include any shipmate who does not want his/her name in Recent Visitors. I know several.

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Even more so than I was before

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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

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All this song and dance about the meeting is rather an unintended compliment to evangelicalism.

There are a handful of controlling, secretive and cultish groups within evangelicalism, but in the main it boasts a relatively open, participatory and democratic ecclesiology, so that meetings such as thi one are quite the exception.

It is difficult to imagine the same orgy of speculation and paranoia over a conclave of Roman Catholic, Orthodox or liberal Protestant leaders.

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I suspect that, on average, the latter would be less likely to have among their number persons inclined to tell the world via their Facebook and Twitter accounts.

The inability of many evangelicals to exercise appropriate discretion is one of my ongoing frustrations with my brethren.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But these are British evangelicals we're talking about here.

You're right; I keep forgetting your evangelicals are a very different breed from ours.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Evangeline
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# 7002

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
All this song and dance about the meeting is rather an unintended compliment to evangelicalism.

There are a handful of controlling, secretive and cultish groups within evangelicalism, but in the main it boasts a relatively open, participatory and democratic ecclesiology, so that meetings such as thi one are quite the exception.

It is difficult to imagine the same orgy of speculation and paranoia over a conclave of Roman Catholic, Orthodox or liberal Protestant leaders.

Ha ha, some truth but I think a secret conclave of Roman Catholic leaders would arouse an enormous amount of interest and conspiracy theories.

Speaking of controlling and cultish groups, maybe the meeting has been secretly organised by the Sydney Anglicans who are coming to set the Church of England back on the one true path. Mwahahaha
[Paranoid] [Big Grin]

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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by sidefall:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...if it turns out to be really thought-provoking.

That would be a first [Big Grin]
On occasion, evangelical discourse and calls to action have changed things - Wilberforce springs to mind.

Why dismiss a possibility out of hand? If any good comes out of something we're assuming is an important meeting (even if it exists - and the big players I know well and personally, don't have a clue), then surely we should be prepared to listen. Once you start rejecting something out of hand just because it comes from a different stable than that you're in then there's real problems.

The voice of God might - just - be being heard. Even though part of that stable, I don't go with much of what these "leaders" say and do - but I do listen to filter the rubbish and find the gold.

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Tulfes
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# 18000

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I work at the Norton Park, front of house. There are a lot of guys here this week, one has a big hat on and his pals call him Justin. He asked me the other night about whether we took book I GS for wedding receptions and I told him about the lovely do we had at the weekend for Tom and Dave. He didn't want to hear any more. Shame, as I would have told him of the nice guy who talked about Christ and conducted the wedding....Chalks was his name. He's not at the meeting this week, but I did hear a few of the delegates saying he wasn't a "proper" Christian. Bit confusing that, because he talked a lot about Christ at the wedding. Better go and get on with serving breakfast to Justin and his pals. They do eat a lot for people who claim to be co cerned about world hunger.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Well, I hope the lurkers enjoyed that bit of fun. ++Justin was at the National Parliamentary Prayer Breakfast yesterday, so you can cross him off any speculative list. Here's a quote from the A of C website.

quote:
Speaking at the National Parliamentary Prayer Breakfast today, the Archbishop of Canterbury said the global 21st century church loves the poor and the victim and stands for human dignity.
A good friend of mine was there, think I'll ask him what they had for breakfast at that event.

[ 18. June 2014, 08:03: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

The inability of many evangelicals to exercise appropriate discretion is one of my ongoing frustrations with my brethren.

But then, perhaps those particular tweets weren't necessarily meant for the public sphere.

I mean reading a lot of feeds, it's fairly obvious that a lot of people switch from public/private in their own tweets. You can accuse them of naivety in this respect, but not much more.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

The inability of many evangelicals to exercise appropriate discretion is one of my ongoing frustrations with my brethren.

But then, perhaps those particular tweets weren't necessarily meant for the public sphere.
"I am going to a Super Sekrit Evangelical Leaders' Meeting. I must not tell anyone but my 6,800* followers on twitter."

Naivety does not equal stupidity which is, I think, the word you were looking for.


*Andrew Wilson's twitter account.

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Forward the New Republic

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PDA
Apprentice
# 16531

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Apparently the AA (cars not alcohol) have taken up most of the hotel over the past couple of days and also Blake Lapthorn solicitors but no Christian related bookings.
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PDA
Apprentice
# 16531

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Blake Lapthorn have a number of solicitors who specialise in charity law.
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Paul.
Shipmate
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I really don't think it's worth getting exercised over the "secrecy" of the meeting. First I don't think it's supposed to be secret so much as private. That seems to be the point of the Chatham House rule. When the CEO of the company I work for meets with the Board it's not an open meeting and I don't get to hear who said what but that doesn't mean that it's a "secret" meeting in some suspicious sense. It just means that if they briefly discuss the idea of firing the whole of Marketing and replacing them with trained monkeys, but ultimately decide against it then none of the fine upstanding members of that department need to get their noses out of joint.

Equally if said CEO happened to mention that he was having a meeting with the Board that wouldn't make him "indiscreet".

Finally whatever they're discussing will come out in the course of time if it has any real relevance. Speculating about who's there and why is fun but I'll wait until someone makes an actual statement about an actual issue before taking it any more seriously than an idle distraction.

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PDA
Apprentice
# 16531

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Simon Stokes who is a Partner at Blake Lapthorn is also non-stipendiary minister in the Church of England
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Late Paul: your CEO having a private board meeting is not quite the same as gathering 100 evangelical leaders from across the board. Even if the specifics of the content is private, I think more thought could have gone into the PR. Having such a broad gathering apparently anonymously is bound to fuel speculation and suspicion.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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