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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: "Secret" evangelical leaders meeting
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm simply suggesting that to all intents and purposes - and I'd say that this is increasingly the case - there are swathes of evangelical Anglicanism that aren't particularly 'Anglican' in feel ...
I think that this is indisputable.
In some cases, it is unconscious. But in some, there is a seemingly deliberate attempt to distance themselves from "Anglicanism".
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I can think of several evangelical Anglican parishes I know that would be less overtly 'Anglican' now than they would have been 15 or 20 years ago.
I wonder if part of this is due to Common Worship! This gave so much freedom to parishes to "do their own thing" that it is very hard to do something that DOESN'T fit into CW in some way or other. Having said that, I still know of parishes where at least some of their services don't actually comply with the minimal requirements of CW.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@SvitlanaV2 - I'm not suggesting that you should feel at home in the CofE - it's not as if I do in some ways for that matter - simply making what may have been a very rude comment.
Firstly, I don't know who would feel at home in an environment they're told they simply don't understand! In this instance I don't think my earlier post really warranted your comment about my ignorance.
If you go back you'll see it wasn't myself but chris stiles - an Anglican - who introduced the notion that sectarianism was something to be discouraged among evangelicals. I was simply responding to what he said. It may be that his comments are completely separate from his background in the CofE. He can clarify that if he wishes to do so.
I take what you say about evangelical Anglican vicars not being worried about sectarianism. But many Christians visit churches of other denominations occasionally, congratulating themselves on being ecumenical as they do so. I don't think it necessarily follows that they're indifferent about sectarianism. These are two different (though perhaps connected) issues, I think.
Having defended myself along this tangential path, I think I should try to bring things back: IMO, one relevant question is whether an ecumenical evangelical meeting for VIPs is a good thing (because ecumenicalism is supposedly good) or a bad thing (because it means the evangelicals are jointly plotting to set the Christian agenda for the nation, etc.). The discussion so far has mostly leant towards the latter sentiment. Someone might want to argue for the former.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
If you go back you'll see it wasn't myself but chris stiles - an Anglican - who introduced the notion that sectarianism was something to be discouraged among evangelicals. I was simply responding to what he said.
No, that's what I said at all.
[Besides in the context that I *was* referring to there are acceptable and unacceptable levels of sectarianism]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
chris stiles
So, putting the unfortunate Salvationists to one side, what particular concerns do CofE evangelicals have about sectarianism? And what types of 'external' evangelical do they get on with best?
Living on the cusp of inner city and suburb as I do, most of the evangelicals I come across or worship with are in majority black or in multicultural congregations. It would be interesting to know how well CofE evangelicalism connects with the black Pentecostal variety, which is extremely diverse - or sectarian.
IME inner city evangelicalism seems not to overlap geographically with the CofE variety. This spares CofE evangelicals from the potentially awkward job of having to pass judgment on the kinds of evangelicals from whom they differ the most, socially and culturally as well as theologically. However, other towns and cities might have a completely different experience.
[ 25. June 2014, 23:43: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sidefall:
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
You forget that is generally those who are closest to us whom we loathe the most. The people the con-evos really don't like are the open evos and especially the charismatic evos, who seem to have so much fun. Catholics and especially the Orthodox are viewed with bemused bafflement.
A truer thing was never said.
Seriously, I have been to the London Music Ministry conferences a few times, organised by ConEvos. It's fascinating, because these churches (such as St Helen's Bishopsgate) now have music groups ("worship bands" to some, but I don't like that phrase) and sing modern songs. I'd guess this is a 21st century development - 20 years ago it would probably have been unthinkable. A clear example of charismatic influence - if you can't beat them, join them!
I was at St Helen's 20 years ago, from 1994 to 1999, and we had worship bands then. I doubt it has changed much since, the ministers did not robe then they wore jeans, the services did not follow traditional worship, we had communion once a term which was passed down the rows by stewards and baptism was by full immersion except for the period when St Helen's was under repair from the 2 IRA bombs which hit it. It is not a 21st century change.
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So, putting the unfortunate Salvationists to one side, what particular concerns do CofE evangelicals have about sectarianism? And what types of 'external' evangelical do they get on with best?
Lets deal with the salvationist issue first - as that's what I was talking about. Generally in evangelical circles, the past (and to some extent present) exclusivity of the SA have tended to mean that they are seen as sectarian and are therefore don't automatically spring to mind as people to invite when one is organising some kind of shindig. The fact that they differ from most evangelicals on something very *visible* also leads to unspoken and unarticulated concerns that they are not completely orthodox.
quote:
Living on the cusp of inner city and suburb as I do, most of the evangelicals I come across or worship with are in majority black or in multicultural congregations. It would be interesting to know how well CofE evangelicalism connects with the black Pentecostal variety, which is extremely diverse - or sectarian.
I've lived in two different inner city areas in the UK, in both areas most of the local evangelical churches (many majority multicultural - some with BME elders/leaders) were in loose association with each other and organised various events together. In both cases overtures were made to the various black Pentecostal groups that were in the area to get involved - most of whom were rather uninterested in getting involved with any churches that were not of their particular theological stripe. The churches that did tend to get involved were ones that were independent and had been started recently - most of the others were affiliated with an overseas denomination (either in Africa or America) and associated exclusively within that denomination (and yes, in many cases there were cultural reasons why they would do this).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The answer to which 'external' evangelicals CofE evangelicals get on with the most would be:
- Those particular types of evangelical who are most similar to themselves.
The same would hold in reverse. The Anglican evangelicals that 'external' evangelicals would most clearly identify with would be those who are most like themselves.
In other words, it would depend which evangelical 'tribe' they belong to - and these tribes tend to transcend denominational boundaries.
So, if you are a New Wine type Anglican charismatic evangelical you are more likely to get on with Vineyard or NFI and certain Baptist evangelicals than you are with the Reform evangelicals within the CofE or with 'cessationist' evangelicals in the Free Churches or the independent churches.
I would agree with you as to the essentially middle-class nature of most Anglican evangelicals and charismatics - and that might inhibit the kind of interaction you are talking about with BME and black-led churches in inner-city areas.
But that needn't necessarily apply. There are areas of London where CofE churches of all theological stripes and churchmanships are largely made up of BME groups and minority communities of one form or other.
I'm not sure there are any hard and fast rules or trends we can indicate here - other than to make the observation that, for the most part, evangelical Anglicanism is a fairly middle class phenomenon.
It used to be less of a case with some of the Anglo-Catholics, who were - and still are - active in inner-city areas but things may have changed there too ... I don't know enough about that end of the Anglican spectrum.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But that needn't necessarily apply. There are areas of London where CofE churches of all theological stripes and churchmanships are largely made up of BME groups and minority communities of one form or other.
I'd like to emphasise this - there are Anglican traditions in other countries, and a lot of immigrants end up finding that a 'middle class' Anglican church is closest to their expectation. For instance - there are evangelical churches in the Thames Valley which have large numbers of Indian IT workers attending (as those churches are the closest to the CSI churches they attend back in their countries of origin). Similarly, there are parts of London where there are lots of Nigerians in conevo churches of all stripes.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Back when I was in a con-evo church, I honestly assumed the SA were much more liberal than they are and viewed them (to my shame now) as hippy do-gooders unlike my church who were more occupied with the more important task of saving people's souls. Caring for the poor and vulnerable without constant overt evangelism was seen as a form of the social gospel. Put it this way - very few in my church supported Christian Aid and preferred the more evangelistic Tearfund. It surprised me recently at a joint SCM-Christian Aid thing that there were so many evangelicals involved in Christian Aid stuff - honestly I assumed they avoided it like people at my past church did.
Clarification - my church was a con-evo Anglican church in con-evo Anglican central East Sussex.
[ 26. June 2014, 15:21: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But that needn't necessarily apply. There are areas of London where CofE churches of all theological stripes and churchmanships are largely made up of BME groups and minority communities of one form or other.
I'd like to emphasise this - there are Anglican traditions in other countries, and a lot of immigrants end up finding that a 'middle class' Anglican church is closest to their expectation. For instance - there are evangelical churches in the Thames Valley which have large numbers of Indian IT workers attending (as those churches are the closest to the CSI churches they attend back in their countries of origin). Similarly, there are parts of London where there are lots of Nigerians in conevo churches of all stripes.
I imagine that London and the South East are fairly exceptional, in this as in so many things.
It would be interesting to know whether most of the attendees at this evangelical event are based in the South.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I imagine that London and the South East are fairly exceptional, in this as in so many things.
The same dynamic occurs in other areas with significant ethnic minorities - that is in those areas the con-evo churches aren't a monoculture either. So the answer to your question remains the same.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
chris stiles
From my own church life and wider interest I'm aware that churches in once white areas naturally become more multicultural as the surrounding areas become multicultural. This is true whether we're talking about evangelicals or not. IME (not yours, I accept), this process mostly involves non-evangelical CofE churches, simply because the non-evangelical ones are present and the evangelical ones are further away.
I'm also aware of the phenomenon of non-white evangelical Christians deliberately choosing to attend majority white evangelical churches rather than the accessible 'ethnic' alternatives. I agree that this is most likely a middle class phenomenon. But the South East probably has a higher percentage of black and brown middle class Christians than elsewhere.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'd say it's definitely more pronounced in London and the South East but that the situation is far from uniform elsewhere. On the whole, though, I suspect that SvitlanaV2's experience would probably hold good for most large UK cities - Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool etc.
I lived in Leeds for many years and there are a small number of genuinely multicultural evangelical and non-evangelical churches there - but they are outnumbered by largely monocultural ones.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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