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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The Failed Welsh Outpouring At Cwmbran
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
Lying brings no glory to God. Why do it? I am against claiming miracles falsely as anyone.
Excellent, now we've ruled you out, so was it the doctor, the radiologist or your friend who was doing God a disservice over the case of the mended tendon?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
Lying brings no glory to God. Why do it? I am against claiming miracles falsely as anyone.
Excellent, now we've ruled you out, so was it the doctor, the radiologist or your friend who was doing God a disservice over the case of the mended tendon?
You've simply begged the question here - in your worldview there is no scope for miraculous healing, so someone has to be either lying or deceived. Whereas it's clear that Lord Pontivillian does accept the possibility of miraculous healing.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
Lying brings no glory to God. Why do it? I am against claiming miracles falsely as anyone.
Excellent, now we've ruled you out, so was it the doctor, the radiologist or your friend who was doing God a disservice over the case of the mended tendon?
You've simply begged the question here - in your worldview there is no scope for miraculous healing, so someone has to be either lying or deceived. Whereas it's clear that Lord Pontivillian does accept the possibility of miraculous healing.
Then he's either a foolish naif or a dissingenous charlatan.
The only miracles that have ever occurred in the last two thousand years were the ones Christ himself performed between his baptism in the Jordan, and his ascension into Heaven. Any others are fake and you're either taken in by them or part of them.
Any other worldview is again taken care of by modern medicine... psychiatry.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
Lying brings no glory to God. Why do it? I am against claiming miracles falsely as anyone.
Excellent, now we've ruled you out, so was it the doctor, the radiologist or your friend who was doing God a disservice over the case of the mended tendon?
While I sympathise with your tenacity, is it actually important whether it was a misdiagnosis, a natural healing or a miraculous healing?
It's just a tendon. I could point to my local specialist hospital where they probably do a dozen repairs a day. We don't line up outside the consultant's office singing hymns and praising God (though they deserve the kudos). We certainly shouldn't be beating a path to such a paltry 'healing' ministry.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And if there were an incontrovertible miracle (I LOVE the one in The Second Coming with Ecclestone at the Man City ground: all materialists instantly believe) then what?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
Thanks, South Coast Kevin - the topic seems to have got away from whether the events at Cwmbran were real or no to whether miracles happen. Personally, I would say that God is the same, yesterday, today and forever - and He still works miracles, sometimes very dramatically - like the old friend of mine who had a car accident which left him practically unable to walk - after prayer he ran up and down a flight of stairs and around the church building, and he is still able to walk 30years on. As he had been in hospital for a significant period before hand, I assume there are medical records.
Not everyone in Christ's time was healed, I haven't yet been healed of my MS, but I stil believe in a God who does heal.
Going back to the various "revivals" - the proof will always be in the results - there will be some people who get carried along with the hype, and some who have a real experience - that has always been the case - again, I have seen it for myself - we were involved in a very lively church which had a very active youth group. The church split, some held on to their faith, others didn't and were casualties, possibly because their "faith", their foundation, wss actually the peer pressure of being in that particular group - a second hand faith, if you like.
But, and it is a big but, there are a lot of people from that group who still have a deep faith and experienced changed lives.
Yes, you have to check out the claims, but you can't "throw the baby out with the bathwater" either.
(And incidentally, I also know the gentleman with the injured tendon - he was prayed for at the end of a fairly ordinary Anglican service - not a hyped up Revival service - and had an immediate improvement in his walking - his physiotherapist (NHS) couldn't believe the amount of improvement in such a short time.)
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It reminds me mildly of the Lance Armstrong debacle, probably cos I have tour on the brain.
(The revival phenomenal, not your friend.)
[ 06. July 2014, 21:08: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The only miracles that have ever occurred in the last two thousand years were the ones Christ himself performed between his baptism in the Jordan, and his ascension into Heaven. Any others are fake and you're either taken in by them or part of them.
Any other worldview is again taken care of by modern medicine... psychiatry.
Ah - so the book of Acts is non-canonic?
Bless ... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I do think a lot of healing stories discount how both chronic pain and conversion disorders work.
Pain is massively cognitively mediated. Plus placebo effect is a real thing, it causes the body to produce not just painkilling chemicals, but also kicks up anti-inflammatory response.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Were you there St. Gwladys? If your friend could publish his records and there was anything inexplicable we could praise God for more than His provision. And then what?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Anyway, aren't so-called miracles late nags, or has this particular equine had a miraculous healing as well?
It certainly feels a short step (even with a dodgy tendon) from healing miracles to other pedigree chum areas that choose to ignore science in favour of "oh say can you seeeeee...." Or whatever the song of the ignorant is in the valleys these days.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The only miracles that have ever occurred in the last two thousand years were the ones Christ himself performed between his baptism in the Jordan, and his ascension into Heaven. Any others are fake and you're either taken in by them or part of them.
Any other worldview is again taken care of by modern medicine... psychiatry.
Ah - so the book of Acts is non-canonic?
Bless ...
Okay, fair point. The RCC and the Eastern Orthodox may well have some claims over miracles leading to sainthood. But I'm willing to bet that most folks looking for divine intervention over toothache, bad posture or tendonitis have no interest in anything approaching Papal approval for such acts, and I speak as a CofE member, not a Catholic or Orthodox apologist.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
(And incidentally, I also know the gentleman with the injured tendon - he was prayed for at the end of a fairly ordinary Anglican service - not a hyped up Revival service - and had an immediate improvement in his walking - his physiotherapist (NHS) couldn't believe the amount of improvement in such a short time.)
This is very important, IMO. I think the hype and sensationalism that seems to accompany much so-called revivalism is a dangerous and often profoundly ungodly thing. The Holy Spirit does not need hyping up.
Yes, I know some people have a strong aesthetic sense and benefit from an environment in which there is a lot of sensory input. But I think we have to be very careful - ISTM that it's so easy for this drive to create worshipful spaces (be it through the use of music, visuals, fragrances etc.) to become a manipulative thing, inadvertantly seeking to mimic the effect of God's work in our spirits.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Divide and conquer eh Darllenwr?
Yeah, ay, deano, Peter and Paul didn't do no apostolic miracles then and the disciples didn't when Jesus sent them on tour?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I think well-heeled, well-educated Western Christians should probably leave miracles to one side and seek for God to manifest himself in some other way. Asking for medical miracles when you've already got the NHS doesn't seem quite right somehow.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Divide and conquer eh Darllenwr?
Yeah, ay, deano, Peter and Paul didn't do no apostolic miracles then and the disciples didn't when Jesus sent them on tour?
Like I said, I have conceded that point, but somebody wanting their rheumatism fixed up is not St Peter in the upper room, and anyone who says they can fix someone's rheumatism through divine intervention is doing it for the money and is a liar, a cheat and a thief, and not St Paul driving out some spirits in Malta.
I want to see way more proof of divine favour than a simple claim. I want MRI scans and I want to see the person claiming to do the healing being bitten by a few serpents of my choosing, starting with a couple of king cobras, then being all hunky-dorey in a short time afterwards.
In fact, lets make "physician heal thyself" the gold standard for faith-healers. Before you can claim to be able to heal someone though the laying on of hands, you have to have a piano dropped on your head first, then fix yourself up.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I think well-heeled, well-educated Western Christians should probably leave miracles to one side and seek for God to manifest himself in some other way. Asking for medical miracles when you've already got the NHS doesn't seem quite right somehow.
And we have a winner.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Engages cynic hat:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
- like the old friend of mine who had a car accident which left him practically unable to walk
So (a) he had a non-degenerative condition that his body would be trying to fix and (b) "practically unable" means he could both stand and walk, though with difficulty.
quote:
- after prayer he ran up and down a flight of stairs and around the church building,
Perhaps prayer gave him the confidence to overcome twinges of pain, and the fear of falling and go for it. That in itself is a blessing, why do we need it to be more than that ?
How much pain you feel is strongly effected by expectation. In hospital when they hook a patients to a morphine driver they can press for a dose, it has been experimentally demonstrated that although not every button press delivers morphine (or they might overdose) they experience pain relief from the button press even when morphine is not delivered.
quote:
he is still able to walk 30years on.
That is great and I am I am happy for him, I would think walking regularly would allow his legs, joints, tendons etc to gain strength, flexibility and range of motion.
quote:
As he had been in hospital for a significant period before hand, I assume there are medical records.
But you haven't seen them - so you do not have definite information about his condition at the time.
Also, you are describing events thirty years ago. There is strong research evidence about what happens with human memory over time - one of the best known trackbacks is Richard Wiseman's research into eye witness accounts of the Indian rope trick - essentially unusual events get elaborated over time in accordance with the recallers expectations.
None of which is about deliberate deceit, or a lack of God's grace. Your friend really got better, and prayer helped him do that, I just doubt the mechanism was supernatural and that the run was as dramatic as you remember. And my doubts are based not on my view of your integrity, but on how people's minds usually work. Essentially I think my version is likelier than yours.
I could be wrong.
[ 06. July 2014, 21:34: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think the adrenalin and placebo effect thing accounts for a lot of this. I've been in meetings where I've seen people cajoled out of wheelchairs and encouraged to push them round and round the meeting hall while everybody whoops and hollers and praises the Lord.
By the end of these same meetings these same people are back in their wheelchairs.
What we'd been seeing was simply an adrenalin rush, peer-pressure and a lamentable lack of fellow-feeling and even basic humanity on the part of the organisers.
I've seen terrible, terrible things like that.
I've told this story before, but my brother once drove a group of young people to a 'healing meeting' at a small conservative evangelical - and not particularly charismatic - church in Gloucestershire. One of the girls in the party had a pronounced squint or cast in her eye.
During the service the evangelist (and I won't name him but he is well-known) said that he'd had a word-of-knowledge about there being a girl in the gathering with a cast in her eye and that God wanted to heal it.
So his friend went forward for prayer. There was no hype or jiggery-pokery and all was calm and without pressure. And to everyone's amazement, as the evangelist prayed the girl's eye began to flicker and visibly 'moved' into a more regular or rightful position. Much rejoicing, both in the gathering and in the car on the way home.
The next day, the girl got up and looked in the mirror. Lo and behold, the cast had returned. She still had her squint.
What's going on here? Does God mess people about like that?
No, I don't believe he does.
What I think happened was that there was a nervous muscle reaction which gave the appearance that something was happening. A physiotherapist has explained to me how these things work - muscle spasms and so on.
Although it wasn't a hyped-up meeting there was still a sense of tension and heightened expectation.
If I remember rightly, there was a first hand - or perhaps second-hand - account from someone who had visited the meetings in Cwmbran. An lady with some kind of pain - rheumatic or similar - had felt instant relief in the meeting itself but the pain returned as soon as she'd left the building.
I'm left wondering why a lot of these claims are orthopaedic or muscular in nature. I suspect it's because such conditions can give a semblance of immediate response.
Unlike Deano, I do believe that it is possible for people to be healed and for their conditions to improve in response to prayer. I can't prove that, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to suppose that such a thing is possible if we do believe in an interventionist God.
However, other than one or two instances where I remain open to the possibility that prayer and the supernatural - or supranatural - were involved, I have to be honest and acknowledge that in my 30+ years as a Christian I have seen very, very little evidence of any of these so-called healings lasting very long.
If Gwladys has an example that has, then that's great. But at the same time I can give loads of examples from my own experience where the opposite has been the case - inclusing, sadly, people with MS where healings have been claimed when the condition had simply gone into remission.
My Christian physio friend (who doesn't dismiss the possibility of divine healing either) can cite plenty of examples of spontaneous remissions and even quite spectacular recoveries from musculo-skeletal disorders where prayer, faith or any belief in God weren't involved at all.
She believes that this is the nature of these conditions. That's what happens with them.
Which is why, I believe, the vast majority of apparent healing stories concern people with muscular or orthopaedic problems - or damaged tendons and the like.
We don't hear anywhere near as many about deafness, blindness, broken bones, conditions like Aids and so on.
Heck, in the charismatic church I belonged to for 18 years we had a bloke who was our 'poster-boy' testimony ... a former miner who suffered with emphysema.
He was up and about, out of his wheelchair, not on oxygen etc ... and he lived a good while before the emphysema finally killed him.
He hadn't been healed at all, but he acted as if he was. It was a mind over matter thing and impressive though that was to a certain extent, it certainly wasn't the miracle many of us took it be.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I think well-heeled, well-educated Western Christians should probably leave miracles to one side and seek for God to manifest himself in some other way. Asking for medical miracles when you've already got the NHS doesn't seem quite right somehow.
And we have a winner.
I'm glad you're happy!
I'm not anti-miracles, though. I just don't think that the quality of faith in our particular Christian culture is likely to generate spiritual blessings of that type. And faith healing as a form of evangelism (which I presume was the idea in Cwmbran) doesn't seem to be suitable for our culture in general. In other cultures,though, I think faith healing makes more sense.
(We should remember, though, that the NHS doesn't bring satisfaction and peace of mind to everyone.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
Keeping out of the miracles issue, back a bit more to this kind of 'revivalism' in general;
I don't have the reference to hand, but I once read an account of Wesley's reaction to finding people in his audience doing the 'holy-roller/slain-in-the-Lord/Toronto-blessing kind of thing. At first it seems he was quite impressed; but in the end he realised that it was a reaction he seemed able to produce himself, by how he preached and exhorted, and stop it happening by different style preaching.
In addition he felt that the people doing the 'holy rolling' didn't seem to be noticeably better Christians in shall-we-say more important kinds of holiness than those who didn't respond so dramatically, and indeed the holy rollers often showed pride and other spiritual problems. He therefore consciously stopped the kind of preaching which produced such results....
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
With respect to healing miracles, I think it is significant that there are still, as far as I know, NO documented cases of healings. Lots and lots of claims but nothing that has ever stood up to investigation. I'm not asking for much - just one case where someone has a clear ailment, with supporting medical evidence, and then, after prayer, clear independent medical evidence that the ailment has completely gone. The blind seeing, the deaf hearing or the lame walking would be fantastic. But I would accept a case where a documented tumor disappears immediately and for good.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
Going back to the various "revivals" - the proof will always be in the results
The really important question is proof of what?
The argument about whether anything spiritually authentic, miracles or otherwise, happened at Cwmbran is an entirely separate question to that of the integrity and honesty of the leadership and the soundness (in ethical rather than theological terms) of the framework in which it takes place.
As I've said before, God is fortunately big enough to bestow grace in the most corrupt environments. The fact that he does in no way validates the credentials or modus operandi of those responsible for those environments.
I have heard the defence "but look at the fruit" too many times in situations which can be proven to be deceitful. It's a bait and switch in which sovereign work of God in some individuals' lives is used in an attempt to endorse the integrity of completely separate individuals (usually the leaders or organisers).
In fact I seem to remember Jesus referring to those who performed miracles, prophesied and cast out demons in his name, that he never knew.
[ 07. July 2014, 05:47: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm reading what many regard as the definitive biography of Wesley at the moment, Steve Langton (although I'm sure that there are other biographies which others would regard in a similar way ...) -
And what that author concludes on the holy-rollering thing is similar to what you've written here - only with the caveat that Wesley never dismissed these things entirely.
It is significant, perhaps, that these 'manifestations' apparently only happened in Whitefield's meetings when Wesley was present - as he was on some occasions despite their theological disagreements and differences.
On those occasions it's not clear whether Wesley always preached, but it would appear that the mere fact of his presence was sufficient to induce this kind of behaviour - perhaps among the more susceptible.
This leads me to believe that we are talking about 'learned behaviour' and psychosomatic responses to a certain extent.
Nigel Wright, former President of the Baptist Union, noticed a similar thing during the Toronto-Blessing. He found that he could induce these kind of experiences very easily and so he pulled back from doing so after a while.
My own experience echoes this. For a while during the Toronto thing I found that when I prayed for people or laid hands on or near them, they would fall over or else jerk backwards as if hit by an electric charge.
I felt very proud of myself. Look at me, I had the 'anointing' at last ...
But I quickly realised how easy it was to create conditions where this sort of thing could happen - there was a kind of Toronto-liturgy which built up a sense of expectation. Also, once it had happened to people once or twice it was easy to repeat the performance with a small number of cues - some of them quite subtle and barely discernible to the uninitiated.
So, like Wright, I too stepped back from it all. I was concerned that I might fall into spiritual pride and hubris.
I don't say that to suggest that I'm any more wise or saintly than anyone else - far from it. But in this instance I recognised the dangers. I could see that these things were largely psychologically induced.
What would I do if Toronto-style holy rolling were to kick-off all over again?
Well, this time round I would steer well clear. It's not where it's at.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
I don't have the reference to hand, but I once read an account of Wesley's reaction to finding people in his audience doing the 'holy-roller/slain-in-the-Lord/Toronto-blessing kind of thing. At first it seems he was quite impressed; but in the end he realised that it was a reaction he seemed able to produce himself, by how he preached and exhorted, and stop it happening by different style preaching.
In addition he felt that the people doing the 'holy rolling' didn't seem to be noticeably better Christians in shall-we-say more important kinds of holiness than those who didn't respond so dramatically, and indeed the holy rollers often showed pride and other spiritual problems. He therefore consciously stopped the kind of preaching which produced such results....
Thanks for this, Steve! My respect for John Wesley and admiration for what he did has just increased a bit (it was already pretty high, I should add). I'm about to buy a book all about remarkable Christian movements and one chapter is about early Methodism. I shall read with interest!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Your best bet for a biography of Wesley, SCK is Henry D Rack's 'Reasonable Enthusiast'. Although it might help if you've read his Journals and other biographies before you come to this one.
I'm part way through it and I have to say it strikes me as the most balanced account I've come across and it puts the whole thing into a very clear historical, social and theological context.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I would add that it doesn't portray Wesley as a 'plaster saint' either. The guy had his faults, as we all do.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Your best bet for a biography of Wesley, SCK is Henry D Rack's 'Reasonable Enthusiast'. Although it might help if you've read his Journals and other biographies before you come to this one.
I'm part way through it and I have to say it strikes me as the most balanced account I've come across and it puts the whole thing into a very clear historical, social and theological context.
Cheers for this, Mr G. For now, I'll see how I get on with the book I've just ordered as I simply must focus my reading on this bloomin' dissertation I'm writing. But I am keen to explore the roots of Methodism further when time permits, so I might well come back to your recommendations.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
Lying brings no glory to God. Why do it? I am against claiming miracles falsely as anyone.
One suspects that God isn't the one to whom they're trying to bring glory.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Gamaliel, it's as reasonable as any other theoretical possibility of God overruling SOME of the laws of physics because He's capable of doing so despite the fact that none of us has ever encountered that or knows anybody who has.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, which is why I don't seek out revivalist meetings and such like these days, Martin.
But neither am I claiming that it is impossible for these things to happen.
It's a tricky one. The liberals get out of the dilemmas by having a non-interventionist God in the first place. God isn't capricious, they say, why would he chose to heal one person and not another? Surely it's far better to have no concept of answered prayers for healing at all ...
I can see what they're getting at but can't see how this is true to the thrust and tenor of the NT.
So I'm something of a cleft stick. I've not seen anything that could count and pass all scientific muster as a 'miracle' - yet I remain open to the possibility that such things can and do happen.
Coming back to the Cwmbran thing though. It's pretty obvious that what we are dealing with is the standard forms of Pentecostal revivalism and enthusiasm that have temporarily 'boiled over' from their home environment - in this case Victory Church, Cwmbran - and attracted wider attention.
It's not the first time this has happened - nor will it be the last. Is it worth going to check out and investigate? No, I don't believe it is.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I think the thrust and tenor, the arc, the trajectory are beyond mere physical miracles in to the relational, the social.
Until we behave as if we were God's arms He can't come.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
The reason why this issue raises such passion, of course, is that to mislead someone about what they can expect God to do for them is a unique kind of wickedness. (Not a unique degree, but a unique kind.)
People who are sick are usually desperate to get better - and the sicker they are, the more desperate they get. And people who expect their illness to be terminal will often go to the most extraordinary and (to an uninvolved third party) apparently irrational lengths just to make it to that birthday, that wedding, that graduation....
In these circumstances, to murmur to someone, "I know a God who can fix that for you" puts you in a position of incredible influence with that person. You gain tremendous power, and they become very vulnerable. From that moment on, the temptation to abuse that power is enormous - the more so if you can justify it to yourself by saying it'll "bring others to God", or whatever.
The disappointment, when it comes, and it nearly always does, is crushing - not only to the sick person but to their friends, their family, even their whole community. I can't possibly believe in a God who would want us to behave in that way towards people just on the off-chance of gaining another disciple or two.
Far harder than saying "I know a God who can fix that" is saying, "I'll walk with you every step of the way." Far harder, but in my opinion far more Christ-like.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
By a country mile.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I'm about to buy a book all about remarkable Christian movements and one chapter is about early Methodism. I shall read with interest!
Hi
Which book is that? I would probably be interested in reading it as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Your best bet for a biography of Wesley, SCK is Henry D Rack's 'Reasonable Enthusiast'.
Thanks for this recommendation. I might check it out.
(My pile of books to read is beginning to get out of hand again.... )
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
I'm always amazed/thankful that anyone comes to Church in this secular and post-Christian society (I speak of the urban UK).
All this hype about healings and stuff (whether substantiated, or ISTM more often, unsubstantiated) looks to be just froth - none of it appears to have any relevance to the un-churched, hungry, deprived, poorly-educated, low-income, low life-expectancy, young single-parent families which form the majority of the population of the parish in which I work!
Am I missing something here? (And don't tell me the Holy Spirit doesn't work in such places, cos She does - only very quietly.....).
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Divide and conquer eh Darllenwr?
Dunno about that - but if you are going to claim that there were no miracles after Jesus' ascension, then you have to accept that Luke told a few porky ones. If that is the case, how can you be sure that he told the truth about Jesus' miracles? And if you concede that Luke may have been economical with the truth where Jesus was concerned, you have to say the same about the other synoptic Gospel writers, since they reported the same miracles. And if you do that, why bother reading the New Testament at all, given that it is obviously a tissue of lies from beginning to end?
Alternatively, if you accept that Luke wasn't playing games in his reportage, then it is difficult to see how miracles ceased with Jesus' ascension. I can understand how one might then draw a line with the death of the last of the Apostles, but as the Early Church Fathers also cite the miraculous, even that might be tricky.
Probably safer to keep an open mind on such issues and concede that, "I'll believe it when I see it." Or, if you prefer, don't dismiss it just because you, personally, haven't seen it.
My problem with the cessationist perspective is that it requires that somebody maintain a careful record to show that there have been no miracles, of any sort, since the chosen year. Since none of us lives for that sort of time, this is a bit of a problem.
As a scientist, I am required to acknowledge the data, even when I don't like it. It seems to me that the Cessationist, inevitably, has to reject data that doesn't fit his world-view.
YMMV
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
by Gamaliel;
quote:
And what that author concludes on the holy-rollering thing is similar to what you've written here - only with the caveat that Wesley never dismissed these things entirely.
I wouldn't entirely dismiss them myself; I believe they can be a genuine and spontaneous reaction of a person confronted by his sinfulness before God - the problem is when there's a temptation to repeat them and 'make them happen'. I think Wesley rightly made an effort to avoid that pitfall without writing off the experience altogether.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I wouldn't dream of making any sort of claim Darllenwr. I repeat as a fact I have never seen a suspension of the laws of physics and in 30 years of fellowship with thousands and thousands of believers in congregations, home groups, in festivals, I don't know anybody who has. Including you.
It's a distraction. From the responsibilities of Christian maturity. Even if every claim were true, so what? Revival would happen? If only we'd believe more? Revival of what?
I'm grateful that the miracles DON'T happen. It would be far, far worse if they did.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Your best bet for a biography of Wesley, SCK is Henry D Rack's 'Reasonable Enthusiast'. Although it might help if you've read his Journals and other biographies before you come to this one.
I'm part way through it and I have to say it strikes me as the most balanced account I've come across and it puts the whole thing into a very clear historical, social and theological context.
This particular biography is on my list, so I'm glad you can recommend it. Did you enjoy reading the journals? I have a project in mind that requires that I read them, but the thought is a bit overwhelming.
Wesley should probably have more detractors nowadays than he does. Those who fear or otherwise disapprove of the irrationality of Pentecostalism should bemoan the Wesleyan influence on that massive and still growing movement. And the liberalism of modern Methodism is not entirely disconnected from his teachings either, so I understand. Fortunately for Wesley's memory, though, it's his boundless energy and utter devotion to spreading the gospel that charms all-comers!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I'm about to buy a book all about remarkable Christian movements and one chapter is about early Methodism. I shall read with interest!
Which book is that? I would probably be interested in reading it as well.
It's called Movements that Change the World. Not a neutral, non-partisan source, I suspect; but I'm buying it as material for my dissertation, which is about whether institutional church (i.e. clergy, lines of authority, structure, buildings etc.) is an inherent barrier to whole-hearted, whole-life commitment to Christ.
I find it interesting how (apparently) all the Christian movements that have had a genuine, long-lasting impact on a nation, culture or empire have been informal and grassroots in nature...
[ 07. July 2014, 22:37: Message edited by: South Coast Kevin ]
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
The Wesley sub-thread is more interesting, methinks.
The 'miracle' con is one of the major factors that drove me from the church—certainly from the evangelical wing of it. There is ample evidence of the resulting cognitive dissonance right here in this thread. People become very worked up when faced with the clear-as-day fact that the miracles that they are told are happening, are not actually happening. Worse, they even see what they believe to be miracles—in cultural terms (for evangelical Christianity is a sub-culture of its own) they have no choice. We're already at a point in Cwmbran story where—just like every similar such story before it—it's clear it was a con. Worse, the 'event' obsession of evangelicals made the con even worse ('everyone needs to know about us!')—there is always a 'show'. The plagiarism issue was serious, not minor.
The deceitful, selfish and narcissistic aspects of the charismatic evangelical movement knows no bounds. So long as you accept everything, it feels fine. However, in truth, the whole culture is like a soap bubble; it appears beautiful and miraculous to behold, but upon closer inspection with even the slightest of touches, one is left only with slightly damp nothingness.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@South Coast Kevin - on the 'informal and grass-roots thing' - I'm not entirely sure that's true. The way that Christianity spread in the so-called Dark Ages wasn't 'informal and grass-roots' in that the missionary monks tended to start in the courts of the kings and chiefs.
How could they have done otherwise in those sort of societies?
Of course, there was then a more grass-roots aspect once Christianity had gained a foot-hold.
But I take the point you are making.
But revivals don't happen in a vacuum and one of the valuable aspects of the 'Rational Enthusiast' biography of Wesley is that it shows the background and the extent of religious observance and practice before the great 18th century 'Awakening'. Most Methodist converts were religious observers of one form or other prior to their conversion.
@SvitlanaV2. I've read Wesley's Journals and fascinating they are too.
I think his enduring appeal does derive from the factors you've indicated but also the combination of 'rationalism' and 'enthusiasm' that Henry Rack cites.
He's also capable of appealing to people from all kinds of traditions and backgrounds - Catholics and Orthodox admire him (and his hymn-writer brother) as well as Protestants - both liberals and evangelicals.
He's a bit like C S Lewis in that respect, only much more of an activist.
I'm sure Charles was the more likeable of the Wesley brothers but it's impossible not to be moved reading Wesley's Journals, even though you have to take him with a rather large pinch of salt at times ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
The 'conversion experience' (or 'experiences') is very easy to replicate.
This Derren Brown one is a personal favourite. Derren says the same kinds of things that all the 'event-based' evangelicals said in my HTB days. They prime their audience ('you're not going to get hurt', 'I'm going to catch you', to plant in their mind not only that something will happen, but that something specific will happen. When that something specific happens, it appears miraculous). Also note that a big part of Derren's show (across many topics) relies on testimonials—he needs to show to the audience that what he does 'works'—that's part of how he convinces people to do whatever it is he tells them or suggests to them.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Komensky - to offset against that - and yes, I believe that the shiny sub-culture is fragile and ephemeral - there are however, many, many gritty, determined and quite rugged individuals within the charismatic evangelical scene.
I take my hat off to the raw determination of many of those I know, even though I may these days part company with them over their expectations and elements of their theology.
These people are in it for the long haul and yes, some of them do have blind-spots and some of them do carry unhealthy layers of cognitive-dissonance around with them.
My old charismatic evangelical fellowship up north is now down to around 70 people - having reached - temporarily and in a mushroom sense - around 300 or 400 people at its peak back in the early 1980s.
Yet they are still banging on about revival and so on.
Is this a tragic distraction?
Yes, in some ways I think it is. But as individuals there's some real grit and gravitas there with some of them. They've stuck at it through thick and thin.
I'm glad I'm not there with them, but I wouldn't want to take anything away from them in terms of the reality of their faith - however misguided or misplaced it may ultimately prove to be.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, I'm with you on the Derren Brown thing, Komensky. That's why I said it's relatively easy to induce revivalist phenomena.
Heck, I've done it myself.
I probably still could. Given the right atmosphere and circumstances I'm sure I could have loads of people laid out on the floor and others shaking and laughing and so on.
You simply need to know the cues and to deploy them properly.
Or else ... as was more the case with me ... step into a situation like that which was already up and running and then people's susceptibility and sense of expectation would do the rest ...
All that said, there conversions that don't take place in a meeting context and plenty of charismatic evangelicals who quietly get on with things.
The problem is that the whole thing has become a 'scene'.
I do have a lot of sympathy with South Coast Kevin's call for a more simple, direct and grass-roots approach as that takes the 'scene' aspect out of it and pares things back.
However, I think such an approach would simply defer the 'scene' aspects until later on in the process or development.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Gam, my gripe is less so about individuals, but about the cultish aspects of the culture. Sure, some of them are doing utterly fantastic work on a global scale that is changing and improving our world; but that is not a get-out-of-jail card for the other crap. By the way, that is the refrain about things like Cwmbran: 'aw shucks, ya know humans are fallible and, gosh, we get things all mucked up, but the Lord is still able to work his special magic through it all'. If someone wants to stop the spread of the destructive and deceptive aspects of that culture the answer is very easy—stop participating in it and stop promoting it. Instead it is accepted as 'we don't always get things right', when in fact 'getting it wrong' is an essential part of their ministry—if it wasn't an essential part of it, they wouldn't do it.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Far harder than saying "I know a God who can fix that" is saying, "I'll walk with you every step of the way." Far harder, but in my opinion far more Christ-like.
(Emphasis added)
I don't necessarily disagree with your post - in fact I think you're right about what you say of the dangers of power that saying "I know a God who can fix that" brings to the person who says it and the person to whom it's said.
But could you clarify the bit I've italicised in your quote? Because it strikes me from the NT records that when Jesus encountered the sick etc., he did heal them - he did "fix" them and then moved on. So what do you mean when you say it's more Christ-like to walk with them every step of the way, instead (genuine question)?
[ 08. July 2014, 09:11: Message edited by: Stejjie ]
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Komensky I very much agree with you here, but with time and experience I've come to a realisation that not everybody is wired to see the big picture. It's a question of personality.
Not everyone thinks about long-term impact or structural or organisational issues, or has the critical distance to consider leaving a church environment, and not everybody has the constitution to be a whistleblower. Those people who do speak out often do so vituperatively and with recourse to poorly substantiated arguments.
I think it was you upthread who mentioned bitterness. Plenty of us have excellent reasons to be bitter, and I don't believe that's a sin in and of itself, but we do need to be self-aware in this respect and try and achieve some detachment in order to speak out constructively.
So I think there needs to be a measure of compassion, sympathy and even recognition for the rank and file and, as I always say on these occasisons, to rejoice à la Paul in the gospel being preached whatever the circumstances.
At the same time I think there's a definite need to go after perpetrators in influential leadership positions and, in true Purgatory style, to attack the issues and not the people.
More courage on the part of the Christian media would be great, and I think the Ship has a role to play here.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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