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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: The Failed Welsh Outpouring At Cwmbran
South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But revivals don't happen in a vacuum and one of the valuable aspects of the 'Rational Enthusiast' biography of Wesley is that it shows the background and the extent of religious observance and practice before the great 18th century 'Awakening'. Most Methodist converts were religious observers of one form or other prior to their conversion.

Oh sure, and this, I'd say, is why it worked for Wesley to go around preaching from town to town and field to field. He was reawakening a faith that was already there, just lying dormant. As the level of background knowledge and experience of Christianity drops, so I think does the effectiveness of the 'travelling preacher' approach.

This is a tangent, so I'll stop there. But once I've got into the book I mentioned upthread, I may well start a new discussion about society-changing Christian movements. (I should be able to keep it from being 'homework' as my dissertation is focused on one particular person's claim and argument, rather than the general question about movements.)

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:


My old charismatic evangelical fellowship up north is now down to around 70 people - having reached - temporarily and in a mushroom sense - around 300 or 400 people at its peak back in the early 1980s.

Yet they are still banging on about revival and so on.

Is this a tragic distraction?

Yes, in some ways I think it is. But as individuals there's some real grit and gravitas there with some of them. They've stuck at it through thick and thin.

What do you think their talk of 'revival' is a distraction from? How is it preventing them from doing more important Christian work, as you would see it?
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Gamaliel
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I think it can be a distraction insofar as it locks people into an endless round of meetings - at least until the heat cools down ...

It also fosters a kind of helter-skelter, roller-coaster kind of faith where people look for the next 'high' instead of giving themselves faithfully to the unexciting tasks.

This isn't purely an evangelical charismatic thing. Tolstoy wrote disapprovingly about people in 19th century Russia who were constantly on pilgrimage going from one monastery to the next seeking particular 'highs' from this or that 'staretz'or this or that icon or relic or whatever it happened to be.

There are equivalent distractions in all Christian traditions.

I would also make a distinction between the kind of Wesleyan style revivals of the 18th century and contemporary revivalism. There are echoes and similarities but by and large we are dealing with different phenomena I think.

As Steve Langton has said, the prostrations, swoonings and fallings and so on that accompanied revivalist preaching in the 18th century - and there were some earlier examples from the 17th century too - were generally in response to preaching about hell and so on. As Henry Rack writes in his biography of Wesley, it didn't take much to 'quicken' or 'awaken' consciences on that score back then as everyone lived with a background idea of hell and damnation and heaven and eternal bliss and so on.

So, you could see these as 'conviction of sin' in the traditional sense.

I'm not sure that applies nowadays - which doesn't in and of itself invalidate the experiences that people have - but there does seem to be more of a 'bless me' element to it.

My own experience of revivalism is that whilst people do come to faith and some progress is made - for the most part all it does is lead to more and more revivalist activity in order to keep the momentum going. And eventually people tire of it and things go back to normal.

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Martin60
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Stejjie - Adeodatus will answer for themself and I look forward to it, but if I may:

It's more Christlike in the sense of WWJD if He were in our shoes. JUST human. No miracles.

What would He have done before He was 30?

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Gamaliel
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Well, if some of the non-canonical Gospels are to be believed he would have made birds out of clay, struck down his teachers and made his play-mates' lives a misery ...

[Big Grin]

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think it can be a distraction insofar as it locks people into an endless round of meetings - at least until the heat cools down ...
[...]
My own experience of revivalism is that whilst people do come to faith and some progress is made - for the most part all it does is lead to more and more revivalist activity in order to keep the momentum going. And eventually people tire of it and things go back to normal.

I suppose some people just really like going to church! At least it's something to do, and you have to remember that not everyone has exciting and important secular activities to be involved in otherwise.

It's also worth saying the obvious: that 'revival' is only possible if there's something to be revived from and into. Of course things have to die down and get back to normal! How else will the next revival be able to take place in ---- years' time??

The idea of highs and lows in communal church life is distasteful to some, but it relieves the boredom, and creates periodical interest. Maybe it's simply psychologically necessary for some religious groups to go through these cycles, just as it's psychologically necessary for some Christians to move on from these groups and into churches that prefer to keep on a more even keel. And there's movement both ways. I believe that a good proportion of former Methodists have moved into more revivalist churches, especially in the developing world.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I suppose some people just really like going to church! At least it's something to do, and you have to remember that not everyone has exciting and important secular activities to be involved in otherwise.

Sure, except this implies that it is merely about entertainment or some kind of psychological comfort. Which is exactly what it's secular detractors claim - and which is exactly what its proponents deny it is.
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deano
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I suppose some people just really like going to church! At least it's something to do, and you have to remember that not everyone has exciting and important secular activities to be involved in otherwise.

Sure, except this implies that it is merely about entertainment or some kind of psychological comfort. Which is exactly what it's secular detractors claim - and which is exactly what its proponents deny it is.
Not all of its detractors are secular! Some of us despise it because it is an embarrassment to Christianity.

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SvitlanaV2
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chris stiles

I accept what you're saying. But it's not necessary to be a 'secular detractor' to see that certain forms of religion appeal to certain kinds of people, and that non-believers are more likely among some categories than others.

Every religious community is different, obviously, but I'm aware that some Pentecostal pastors and theologians are concerned about the difficulties in attracting men/youngsters/white people etc. to church, and whose responses to those difficulties aren't just spiritual (e.g. more prayer), but also involve making sociological and psychological assessments of the situation.

Maybe this a kind of evaluation runs the risk of minimising the work of the Holy Spirit. OTOH, attempting to separate the life of the church completely from the scholarship and understanding of the world can also lead to secularisation, because churchgoers could begin to see their church experience as completely separate from and irrelevant to what they do and experience the rest of the week (assuming they have more to do than just attend church meetings)....

[ 08. July 2014, 17:41: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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SvitlanaV2
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Actually, I remember reading a comment by one black pastor (from the New Testament Church of God, I think) who noted that although the 'revival' meetings churches like his used to hold initially had a strong evangelistic element, they'd become more geared towards strengthening the faith of people who were already church members. He didn't seem to think they were still suitable vehicles for pursuing the church's goals.

I also found it interesting to read elsewhere that revival meetings in indigenous English and Welsh Nonconformity gradually became less spontaneous over time, more formal, held indoors rather than outdoors, and eventually involved the hiring of professionals to conduct the campaigns. Although there were gains to be made, it seems as though the returns produced by these events declined over time. Can I assume that the 'Cwmbran outpouring' was an example of this process of formalisation?

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Green Mario
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Martin - wasn't Jesus in our shoes?
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Can I assume that the 'Cwmbran outpouring' was an example of this process of formalisation?

Perhaps a bit, but I think that as time goes by the temptation to copy what is perceived as a tried and tested model increases.

It's easier to research previous revivals than ever before (there are indeed entire blogs devoted solely to Welsh revivals) and to think, unconsciously or otherwise, "it's about time another one came along", as though they were earthquakes or buses or something.

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Martin60
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Aye Green Mario, even more so before He was 30. And we follow in THOSE footsteps.

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think it can be a distraction insofar as it locks people into an endless round of meetings - at least until the heat cools down ...
[...]
My own experience of revivalism is that whilst people do come to faith and some progress is made - for the most part all it does is lead to more and more revivalist activity in order to keep the momentum going. And eventually people tire of it and things go back to normal.

I suppose some people just really like going to church! At least it's something to do, and you have to remember that not everyone has exciting and important secular activities to be involved in otherwise.
I knew a woman who used to seek out exciting religious activity. The problem with this is that there is much more to being a Christian than having exciting experiences. It was my impression that her religious life suffered because of her approach.

Moo

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I knew a woman who used to seek out exciting religious activity. The problem with this is that there is much more to being a Christian than having exciting experiences. It was my impression that her religious life suffered because of her approach.

Sadly, I have met too many people with such a mindset. I knew one woman who openly admitted that once the Sunday evening service was over, and she had had her weekly "fix" of being slain in the Spirit, the rest of the week was just a boring wait for the next Sunday.

For some people, it really is an addiction.

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Martin60
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Addiction to one's own hyperventilation and endorphin rush, altered states, primal mob psychology: being witlessly involved in theatre more than in communion and probably even less involved with actually Following In The Footsteps than the average pew warmer. Which if I am anything to go by ...

There is probably a positive benefit to all this distraction as there is to all legalism taken to heart: it keeps one on the straight and narrow in poverty.

But I wouldn't be surprised and in fact I'm intuitively sure that charismania reinforces ennui and anomie. All addictions come with a downer, withdrawal.

Those who lead in this are vampires.

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Gamaliel
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I think we have to be careful not to be overly critical of those who rely on some kind of 'rush' or release from some form of worship/church activity - but at the same time we have to be realistic and acknowledge that this is what it is ...

For instance, I remember seeing a documentary series about black-led churches which traced the history from the slave plantations in Jamaica and the USA through to the rise of African indigenous churches in London.

It suggested that if you were working in the sugar plantations or as a maid in one of the estate houses being bossed around all day then the exuberance of the Sunday morning service was inevitably going to provide a welcome release.

The same would be true, I suggest, if you were a coal miner in the South Wales Valleys.

All that said, contemporary middle-class Christians zoning out on endorphins doesn't strike me as a particularly good use of their time.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
chris stiles

I accept what you're saying. But it's not necessary to be a 'secular detractor' to see that certain forms of religion appeal to certain kinds of people, and that non-believers are more likely among some categories than others.

Absolutely, and this is what people have been saying in other threads, whenever people - including you - posit the charismatic movement as something that 'renews' evangelicalism [Smile]
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I knew a woman who used to seek out exciting religious activity. The problem with this is that there is much more to being a Christian than having exciting experiences. It was my impression that her religious life suffered because of her approach.

Sadly, I have met too many people with such a mindset. I knew one woman who openly admitted that once the Sunday evening service was over, and she had had her weekly "fix" of being slain in the Spirit, the rest of the week was just a boring wait for the next Sunday.

For some people, it really is an addiction.

Maybe the rest of their lives really is boring, unsatisfying or arduous in some way? There must be many people like that in the world, and it's unsurprising that this kind of religion inspires them more than the dignified, restrained variety.

Formal religious routines don't necessarily fill the need for spiritual experience. I think this is one reason why a lot of people don't bother with church at all; even revivalistic religion is now fairly tame when compared to the secular opportunities for 'losing oneself'....

Perhaps we need to devise a kind of dignified, quiet Protestant Christianity where it's acceptable to look for or indulge in overwhelming spiritual experiences at certain intervals, once every few years, for example, before returning to the normal church routine. This would give some people something to look forward to, but detractors wouldn't be obliged to participate.

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Martin60
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Balancing as usual Gamaliel.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
chris stiles

I accept what you're saying. But it's not necessary to be a 'secular detractor' to see that certain forms of religion appeal to certain kinds of people, and that non-believers are more likely among some categories than others.

Absolutely, and this is what people have been saying in other threads, whenever people - including you - posit the charismatic movement as something that 'renews' evangelicalism [Smile]
Charismaticism presumably renews those who participate in it! It may renew people from more respectable churches whose true inclination lies in a more charismatic direction. It may offer evangelistic renewal if it borrows aspects from the surrounding culture where it takes place.

But as I implied in my last post, I agree that MOTR Christianity, for example, needs to devise its own special ways of reaching out to people who for whatever cultural/social/etc. reason don't find charismaticism appealing.

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Gamaliel
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[/qb]

Maybe the rest of their lives really is boring, unsatisfying or arduous in some way? There must be many people like that in the world, and it's unsurprising that this kind of religion inspires them more than the dignified, restrained variety.

Formal religious routines don't necessarily fill the need for spiritual experience. I think this is one reason why a lot of people don't bother with church at all; even revivalistic religion is now fairly tame when compared to the secular opportunities for 'losing oneself'....

Perhaps we need to devise a kind of dignified, quiet Protestant Christianity where it's acceptable to look for or indulge in overwhelming spiritual experiences at certain intervals, once every few years, for example, before returning to the normal church routine. This would give some people something to look forward to, but detractors wouldn't be obliged to participate. [/QB][/QUOTE]

This presupposes that we can 'devise' these things according to plan and build them into our collective church lives rather as we might build in special 'treats' and outings into our family lives if we live in families or our single lives if we are single.

I'm not sure it works as neatly as that.

But I take the point you are making.

People are looking for 'authentic' spiritual experience but that comes in various packages and flavours. How we would legislate for that in a dignified Protestant context, I don't know.

Would we have a 'menu' of options?

'Right folks, it's coming up to that time of year where we have a bit of a spiritual blast ... here is a list of the options for this year. You can choose from the following:

- Charismatic Bible Week where you will be 'slain in the Spirit'.

- A week at a monastery where you will enjoy the stillness and quietness and experience a sense of the numinous in he liturgy.

- A week at an Alternative Worship convention ... remember to take your pebbles ...'


[Biased]

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

- A week at an Alternative Worship convention ... remember to take your pebbles ...'

Amusing, and yet .. this is essentially 'technique' (in the Ellulian) sense being applied to worship isn't it.

I heard an anecdote about someone who is big in the tech world recently, commenting that they started to experiment with prayer, but yet they found that they didn't seem to get any immediate benefit from it. This led the speaker into reflecting that perhaps this person was applying the idea of efficiency to prayer (after all, maybe if you could pray efficiency you could get the same benefit in 5 minutes that traditionally people got after 3 hours .. and so on).

This kind of thing is most typified by the lifehacking movement - which attempts to improve productivity/efficiency/output measured in different senses by treating everything - the human body included - as a kind of machine.

.. and yet, this is where the kind of individualised choice driven evangelicalism logically leads to, isn't it? We might all laugh at the joke - but essentially we end up making the same calculation at a much cruder level.

[ 09. July 2014, 13:52: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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Gamaliel
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Yes, I think there is something in that, Chris. It becomes so reductionist that eventually it disappears into a hole ... usually up its own backside.

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SvitlanaV2
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Well, if sensation-hunting religion could be exchanged en masse for reasonable Methodism and MOTR Anglicanism, that would no doubt calm many anxieties. But it's not happening quite like that, all jokes aside.

IMO, if you have nothing better to offer people in exchange for what they have, there's not much point in going on and on about how unwise and unreasonable they're being. I mostly make do with MOTR churches, but I can't see them being any sort of replacement for charismatic forms of religion. Maybe economic improvements around the world will reduce the demand for Pentecostalism and leave the remaining Christians craving quiet reflection and gentle 5-10 minute sermons. I don't think so, but if God grants me a long life maybe I'll live to see it.

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Gamaliel
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I'm not postulating that we seek to replace Pentecostalism or revivalism with MOTR alternatives as such - simply that there has to be somewhere for these people to go when the bottom falls out of the whole thing.

Many casualties of revivalism end up nowhere. It's burn-out.

My brother-in-law grew up in a large Pentecostal family. Now, he's the only one of his siblings - there were six of them in all and one is sadly no longer with us - who is still involved in church in any meaningful way.

I'm not saying that MOTR religion would be any more effective in Cwmbran and the South Wales Valleys than revivalism is. But from what we've heard so far I'm not sure that revivalism is being as effective down there as its supporters would like to think.

We've already heard that it hasn't made any noticeable impression on the council estates that sprawl up the Eastern Valley.

The existing traditional churches aren't doing particularly well down there either.

If I knew what the answer was, I would give it. I'm simply observing that classic revivalism isn't having a great deal of impact either.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

IMO, if you have nothing better to offer people in exchange for what they have, there's not much point in going on and on about how unwise and unreasonable they're being.

Firstly, it wasn't a joke. It was a serious point.

Secondly, a lot of my critique comes from having grown up in a community like this and seen the resulting spiritual and emotional casualties emerge over long periods of time. Which is why it is difficult the laissez faire attitude that at least some need - be it psychological or whatever - is being met.

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SvitlanaV2
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I don't deny the points made above, but sadly, leaving the church is frequently what happens these days, whether it's due to burn-out, or boredom, or whatever. (And be aware that Methodists can crash out too, since able-bodied volunteers are often in very short supply there and hence overworked.)

We seem to have a yearning for revivalistic religion to be better than it is, to compensate for the serious deficiencies elsewhere in Western Christianity but not produce any challenges of its own. Maybe that's too much to ask.

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Gamaliel
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I'm not sure 'we' have a yearning for revivalistic religion to be better than it is, it's more a case that the revivalists put it forward as the ultimate panacea to all ills - hence the resulting casualties when disillusionment sets in.

I well appreciate that the CofE, Methodists and URC etc have lost plenty of people over the last few decades through boredom, apathy and so on ... but roller-coaster religion can also tip people out too.

It can give a semblance of something happening that masks the fact that very little is actually going on at all.

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Rosa Winkel

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"Highs" are a trap that I fell into as well. It is a natural consequence of the fact that our cultures tell us that life is about being cool, better and exciting, it's about working-hard and achieving things. It's about not just being a good singer, but about being the Top Talent. A book I've reading the moment by Arnold Retzer points out that Bowie's maxim that "we can be heroes, just for one day" heightens expectations, when in fact that we have capitalistic societies means that not everyone can be that special person. These capitalistic societies don't value weakness and boredom, and promises occasional highs as pay-back for the shite we have to swallow.

Others escape their boredom (for short periods of time) through alcohol, drugs or consumerism. Like with prayer, these are not bad things in themselves, but when they become the focus...

I myself have witnessed the charistmatic/evangelical abuse of vulnerable people, people promising those highs, promises often made out of desires to help.

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
...fact that we have capitalistic societies means that not everyone can be that special person. These capitalistic societies don't value weakness and boredom...

Are there any societies where everyone can be that special person, and which value weakness and boredome?

Moo

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Rosa Winkel

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Are you disagreeing that capitalistic societies don't value weakness and boredom?

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
...fact that we have capitalistic societies means that not everyone can be that special person. These capitalistic societies don't value weakness and boredom...

Are there any societies where everyone can be that special person, and which value weakness and boredome?

Moo

Possibly, in some ways and at some times, the Church?
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure 'we' have a yearning for revivalistic religion to be better than it is, it's more a case that the revivalists put it forward as the ultimate panacea to all ills - hence the resulting casualties when disillusionment sets in.

I well appreciate that the CofE, Methodists and URC etc have lost plenty of people over the last few decades through boredom, apathy and so on ... but roller-coaster religion can also tip people out too.

It can give a semblance of something happening that masks the fact that very little is actually going on at all.

If your old congregation have declined from 300 to 70 people they can't reasonably be claiming to have the panacea for all ills! But I imagine they might have felt that way in the early days.

I don't know about Wales, but according to Peter Brierley the number of indigenous, self-proclaimed charismatic evangelical churches in England has decreased. If this is because these churches want to disassociate themselves from the Toronto Blessing, as he claims, then triumphalism must be fading.

Churches of all kinds have experienced declining numbers, as you say. But the decline is less in (various types of) evangelical churches. Of those churches that are growing, the great majority will be some sort of evangelical. The question is whether the most effervescent of these churches could lose the 'roller-coaster' part of their heritage without reducing any small growth or speeding up their rate of decline.

Maybe a stronger religious monopoly would reduce the problem of 'vulnerable people' being drawn into unsuitable independent churches, but I suggest that it wouldn't help everyone else.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Mmm ... this isn't easy, especially when you think of the numbers of "semi-itinerant" Christians who only settle in a church for a short time before moving on to the next place where they think that God is acting (or should that be "moving"?)
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Gamaliel
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Believe you me, SvitlanaV2 we certainly did believe that in the early days - and then some!

Some people were still banging on about reaching the city for Christ and having to lay on extra meetings to accommodate the crowds even after several grievous and painful splits and then a more gradual decline in numbers.

I think the reasons for the decrease in the number of indigenous charismatic churches isn't entirely down to reactions against the Toronto Blessing.

I think there was an element of that. Once you'd fallen over, rolled on the ground, laughed uncontrollably or even barked like a dog - there wasn't really anywhere else you could take it. You still had to get up in the morning and go to work, you still had to go to the toilet, you still had to wash your socks.


The triumphalism has faded, but it's not entirely gone away. Since Toronto we've had the Bethel thing and that's still big in some quarters.

All charismatic activity becomes routinised over time. I suspect that with increased global communications and the pace of life these days, the period between the peaks and the troughs has telescoped. What would take a good while to fizzle out in the old days fizzles out a lot more quickly now.

Sociologists say that a 'church' or denomination (in the sociological sense) tends to have a shelf-life of several hundred years. The Methodists have been around for 270 years or so. They may see out their 300th or even 350th anniversary.

Some of the newer groups won't last anywhere near as long.

I don't know why you post as if I am calling for a greater religious monopoly simply because I attend an Anglican church.

I'm not suggesting that a religious monopoly of any kind would be any better or any healthier. There are problems associated with all these things and all ways round.

All churches have problems. The historic Churches simply have a different set of problems to the Pentecostal churches and the new churches and vice-versa.

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Moo

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# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Are you disagreeing that capitalistic societies don't value weakness and boredom?

I don't think they do so more than any other kind of economic system.

Moo

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Rosa Winkel

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A point that would be relevant if we were looking at Toronto blessing-style events in such societies. In such an eventuality, where there was, for example, no missionising from capitalistic countries, it would be interesting to see why that would be the case.

Being speculatory, perhaps there's some Buddhist monastery somewhere in a remote mountain where some get addicted to such highs. There it would be prudent to look at the reasons for that, and whether it was also a form of escapism.

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I don't know why you post as if I am calling for a greater religious monopoly simply because I attend an Anglican church.

I'm not suggesting that a religious monopoly of any kind would be any better or any healthier. There are problems associated with all these things and all ways round.

All churches have problems. The historic Churches simply have a different set of problems to the Pentecostal churches and the new churches and vice-versa.

I'm just trying to uncover the tiniest smidgen of a solution in the problems that you rehearse so abundantly! But you clearly don't find talk of solutions helpful.

It occurs to me that the church-sect sociological theories must lead to certain degree of fatalism. Revivalism is inevitable, as are liberalism and church decline, rigidity as well as tolerance, etc. In which case, what's the point of being censorious about any of it? Disappointed holy-rollers, like the poor, will always be with us. There's nothing new under the sun, and after we've endured a few short decades of life it'll be someone else's problem anyway....

BTW, do any of your revivalist friends ever consider Christ's return? Does the Church need to be revived before he comes back, or isn't that a priority? Some Christians fully expect things to get worse rather than better as a prelude to the Second Coming. Perhaps revivalists tend not to be among their number.

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Oscar the Grouch

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In the circles I used to run with, personal renewal would lead to a restored Church, which would bring in a revival. According to some "prophets" and "apostles", a worldwide revival was an essential precursor of the Second Coming. This, of course, raised the stakes immeasurably. "We're building a restored church, full of renewed believers, so that revival can come and Jesus can return. So if YOU aren't personally renewed and "moving in the Spirit", you're blocking the return of Jesus." Guilt trips a plenty... [Roll Eyes]

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
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Absolutely, Oscar the Grouch, that was pretty much the narrative we were running with so it's no surprise it ended in disillusionment.

@SvitlanaV2. There is the tiniest smidgeon of hope and a 'solution' - if that's the right term - in all of this. Read Ronald Knox's book 'Enthusiasm'. It's dated now but he recounts the various 'enthusiastic' and revivalist movements within both Protestantism (Quakers, Methodists, Irvingites etc) and Catholicism (Jansenists).

He ends with a condundrum. These things are eccentric and sometimes even harmful. But we need 'enthusiasm'.

Meanwhile, I fight shy of hard-cut solutions because I lived for so long in an environment where we thought we had it all taped.

Real life is a lot more messy than that.

I'll admit that I'll sometimes sound censorious about these things but these are internet boards - we can sound off on them and this is the 'Magazine of Christian Unrest' not the 'Magazine of Celebrating Revivalism.'

In real life, I get on pretty well with revivalists. I've just finished proof-reading a PhD thesis by a friend who is in a leadership/teaching position in a restorationist church.

I like your sunnyside-up, let's find some good in all of this approach. It's not that I don't find talk of solutions helpful, it's just that I don't always find your stabs at offering solutions helpful - particularly when I've aleady tried them ...

Yes, the poor will always be with us, but we often forget the rest of that verse as it appears in Mark 14:7 '... and you can help them anytime you want.'

Disillusioned revivalists will always be with us. We can help them too.

Sure, it doesn't always help to rain all over their parade, but it can help to offer a sense of perspective. And that's all I'm trying to do.

Meanwhile, and I don't mean this to sound dismissive, but the very fact that you were asking questions about eschatology and revivalism demonstrates that you don't really have that much experience of it. The early Pentecostals believed in the imminent return of Christ and many saw the 'return' of spiritual gifts like healing, tongues and prophecy as a sign of that.

Revivalism and eschatology tend to be closely linked, although the emphasis does vary according to the underlining theology of whichever group it happens to be.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
A point that would be relevant if we were looking at Toronto blessing-style events in such societies. In such an eventuality, where there was, for example, no missionising from capitalistic countries, it would be interesting to see why that would be the case.

Being speculatory, perhaps there's some Buddhist monastery somewhere in a remote mountain where some get addicted to such highs. There it would be prudent to look at the reasons for that, and whether it was also a form of escapism.

Not in remote places really; I have seen this in Hertfordshire and London! In some branches of Buddhism, there is great wariness of such highs, and quite fierce teachings to bring them down. It is sometimes called 'Satan's cave', in other words, a kind of enjoyable place to hide away. There is also the 'stink of holiness', to which many newcomers are susceptible.

Many stories about it of course - for example, the monk who got so enlightened, that the birds come to sing to him in his hut (some lovely illustrations of this). His teacher remonstrates with him fiercely, and advises several more years meditation, after which the birds have gone. Now what?

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:


I'll admit that I'll sometimes sound censorious about these things but these are internet boards - we can sound off on them and this is the 'Magazine of Christian Unrest' not the 'Magazine of Celebrating Revivalism.'

Very true. But it could be the 'Magazine Celebrating Quiet, Respectable Churches that Won't Let You Get Carried Away'! I'd love to hear that they have a few - any - answers!

quote:

Yes, the poor will always be with us, but we often forget the rest of that verse as it appears in Mark 14:7 '... and you can help them anytime you want.'

Disillusioned revivalists will always be with us. We can help them too.

Yes - send them to the Methodists or the liberal catholic CofE. The more, the merrier! But I admit, after posting my reference to the poor I realised that it would probably be criticised.

quote:


Meanwhile, and I don't mean this to sound dismissive, but the very fact that you were asking questions about eschatology and revivalism demonstrates that you don't really have that much experience of it. The early Pentecostals believed in the imminent return of Christ and many saw the 'return' of spiritual gifts like healing, tongues and prophecy as a sign of that.


Guilty as charged. Interestingly, I've never heard any of my Pentecostal relatives refer to End Times, or anything of that sort. It's the Seventh Day Adventist ones who seem a bit more interested. My elderly Methodist friend talks a lot about Judgment Day.

quote:

In real life, I get on pretty well with revivalists. I've just finished proof-reading a PhD thesis by a friend who is in a leadership/teaching position in a restorationist church.

He's not too disillusioned, I hope? He's lucky to have you, though - I had to make do without that assistance.
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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think we have to be careful not to be overly critical of those who rely on some kind of 'rush' or release from some form of worship/church activity - but at the same time we have to be realistic and acknowledge that this is what it is ...

For instance, I remember seeing a documentary series about black-led churches which traced the history from the slave plantations in Jamaica and the USA through to the rise of African indigenous churches in London.

It suggested that if you were working in the sugar plantations or as a maid in one of the estate houses being bossed around all day then the exuberance of the Sunday morning service was inevitably going to provide a welcome release.

The same would be true, I suggest, if you were a coal miner in the South Wales Valleys.

All that said, contemporary middle-class Christians zoning out on endorphins doesn't strike me as a particularly good use of their time.

IME it's the white middle-class charismatic congregations that get silly and caught up in nonsense. Like you said, it's not a particularly good use of their time, particularly for people who have the time/resources/energy to do so much more.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
IME it's the white middle-class charismatic congregations that get silly and caught up in nonsense. Like you said, it's not a particularly good use of their time, particularly for people who have the time/resources/energy to do so much more.

I have sufficient connections with various ethnic/majority-minority churches of a charismatic and pentecostal churches to say that silliness and getting caught up with nonsense isn't a sole preserve of the white middle class - and they aren't even unusually susceptible to it.

So IME what you say doesn't ring true on a macro level.

[ 12. July 2014, 19:28: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE]IME it's the white middle-class charismatic congregations that get silly and caught up in nonsense. Like you said, it's not a particularly good use of their time, particularly for people who have the time/resources/energy to do so much more.

It's not helpful to generalise in that way - because it simply isn't true.

It does happen in white congregations but its far from unknown in BME ones too. KICC in London is pretty wacky and there are a lot of BME churches who are into the whole deliverance thing around a package of prosperity theology. KICC ISTM runs very close to that line.

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Martin60
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The impoverished get caught up with circuses and that includes the white middle class in a 'subtle', white middle class way. My former congo is typical of that. Buying in to God bringing Angolan Muslims back from the dead, changing people's leg lengths on the streets of Leicester, proclaiming everything eversomuch in 24/7 prayer marathons. Singing a lot. I call that impoverished. Poor. Very poor. When the actual needs of the real poor barely have a little finger lifted to alleviate their burdens.

We are the new Sodomites.

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Love wins

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Lord Pontivillian
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
The impoverished get caught up with circuses and that includes the white middle class in a 'subtle', white middle class way. My former congo is typical of that. Buying in to God bringing Angolan Muslims back from the dead, changing people's leg lengths on the streets of Leicester, proclaiming everything eversomuch in 24/7 prayer marathons. Singing a lot. I call that impoverished. Poor. Very poor. When the actual needs of the real poor barely have a little finger lifted to alleviate their burdens.

We are the new Sodomites.

I would suggest that some research is done. The church where I used to attend before moving to Horsham, has seen the type of miracles you mock. It is running a Debt Centre, that is greatly needed and looking at setting up a food bank.

The church needs always to look at the physical needs of people, as you rightly say, but it also needs to bring people into the presence of god, to tender to their spiritual needs.

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Martin60
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I mock no miracles that occur. There are none. Especially the miracle of us being Christ. The kingdom. If nonsense miracles occurred, like leg length actually miraculously changing when all around are dying, grieving, lonely, poor, lost, unfriended, unloved, unvisited, untended expect in ever such spiritual matters, that would be MUCH worse. But God does not mock the afflicted. Debt advice is a common toe in the water. And looking to do something is too. In another two thousand years maybe.

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Love wins

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South Coast Kevin
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That's getting pretty judgemental, Martin! You seem to be implying that people who believe in the miraculous (healing and stuff) are bound to be doing less of the social, physical meeting of people's needs than those who don't believe in miraculous healing etc. Do you have some evidence for this implied claim, or have I misinterpreted you?

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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