|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: The Failed Welsh Outpouring At Cwmbran
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
To be fair to Victory Church, they are involved in various ministries to people with drug-dependency and alcohol-related problems.
I seem to remember AberVicar, who ministers in the next Valley over, commending them for this and he's by no means a raving charismatic. If I remember rightly he cited some nuns in Bristol regularly referring people to their programme.
That said, I've also heard it's quite a controversial programme.
Whatever the case, I do think it's going too far to suggest that outfits which are into the signs-and-wonders and revivalist stuff necessarily neglect the social and practical aspects.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
No Kevin. We're all equally bad.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Gamaliel, Kevin: it's opportunity cost, while we're engaged in vain nonsense we're not doing good.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Gamaliel, Kevin: it's opportunity cost, while we're engaged in vain nonsense we're not doing good.
Well, that's true. Arguing on a messageboard is not the most productive activity...
Oh, you meant that praying for people to be healed or set free from oppression by the demonic is vain nonsense! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
It is when it's not accompanied by other, less spectacular and less overtly 'spiritual' means of engagement.
How many people in the UK have been healed through the prayers of well-meaning Christians over the last 30 or 40 years?
How many people have been healed by doctors, the NHS etc over the same period?
Do the math as the Americans would say.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Hoist with me own petard! Well done Kevin. As I said, we're ALL useless.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
How many people in the UK have been healed through the prayers of well-meaning Christians over the last 30 or 40 years?
How many people have been healed by doctors, the NHS etc over the same period?
How many people who advocate the former also denigrate the latter? Very few, I think - you do the math.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Ha ha. They may not denigrate the latter, but they certainly can't demonstrate anywhere near the same level of results.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ha ha. They may not denigrate the latter, but they certainly can't demonstrate anywhere near the same level of results.
Indeed so. As you like to say, it's 'both... and' rather than 'either... or'.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
No, it's God's provision. And He provides millions of times as much through the NHS. Although zero times a million is still zero. There is comfort and placebo in both admittedly, but the NHS actually facilitates miracles of healing every minute of the day, including psychological. Saying zero and a million or ten are comparable in any way is ... interesting to the point of pathological. And yes I've been healed by God in ways the NHS can't touch.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Sure, South Coast Kevin, I think it is both/and rather than either/or ... but these days I'd think twice before going near any attempts to pray for healing - other than fairly general prayers - or overt attempts to deal with the apparently 'demonic'.
I'm sorry, but there is it is.
Been there, done that.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Gamaliel. How much of both? How both? In Alzheimer's, diabetes, cancer, paranoid schizophrenia, alcoholism, name it?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Or is it, like freewill and determinism in your book, 100% both
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Wot, we extrapolate from Jesus full humanity and full divinity to full determinism and full freewill for ourselves and that God miraculously intervenes miraculously all the time while waiting for us to be His arms and voice and ears and actually live as if we were the Kingdom?!
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
No, that's not what I'm saying.
I was thinking in more general terms.
I think a kind of Chalcedonian both/and model can help us negotiate all manner of issues as well as Christology.
On the freewill/determinism thing and whether we can legitimately expect the miraculous and so on ... on the first I don't get het up about it. On the second, I can't see why not in principle ... but in practice I think the rhetoric overtakes the reality.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
You should be in politics. But I like you.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
You should be in politics. But I like you.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ha ha. They may not denigrate the latter, but they certainly can't demonstrate anywhere near the same level of results.
Indeed so. As you like to say, it's 'both... and' rather than 'either... or'.
Look, if people were being healed by prayer there would be evidence of it and there is none. If the so-called 'healers' could really heal, we'd know about it—and they'd be in hospitals and battlefields. If people had the gift of prophecy they would prophecy and those specific things would come to pass with every prophecy—it doesn't happen. For people with that 'gift' who regularly get it wrong, it's no big deal to their supporters. If someone had the gift of tongues, either to speak 'an angelic language' it would be a language, real or 'angelic'. It doesn't happen. The lies simply must be retold—for them, there is no alternative. It's also curious that the very recent emergence (extremely recent in terms of church history) of these practices as cultural phenomenon doesn't seem to raise an eyebrow with them either.
So much of Christian culture could be more accurately described as a 'religious market'. The language are marketing devices are very similar: emphasis on 'choice' (which in both cases is heavily influenced by controlling and manipulative psychological factors) and then the poor sods are offered what one scholar calls 'salvation goods'. Rational choice plays a very small roll in the Christian marketplace. Just as in the capitalist marketplace, the placation of the group is vital to the success of the system. Those on the inside would never dare inspect the facade because the circular system of beliefs insists that to do so reveals a lack of faith. Lack of faith is an obstacle to salvation—presto!
My namesake made a wonderful allegory of this situation back in 1631:
quote:
Looking at the building of the castle [of wisdom] itself, I saw its gleaming white walls, which they told me were of alabaster. But examining them more carefully and touching them with my hands, I saw that they were made of nothing but paper, the cracks revealing the occasional patch of tow. From this I judged that the walls were partly hollow and filled with stuffing. I was amazed at this deception and laughed aloud.
The Cwmbran story is just one of tens of thousand in the evangelical marketplace. No matter how many diet pills are proven to be frauds, there are always more desperate customers ready to believe the next batch of impossible promises. If you're sick of it—stop participating in it. Stop allowing your church and clergy from conning the congregation.
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Komensky
That's an interesting analogy with capitalism, which I must think about more. Capitalism is not solely fraudulent, of course, as then people would stop buying, but it has an element of fraud in it, so as to maximize profits, I suppose. See for example, built in obsolescence.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Capitalism is not solely fraudulent, of course, as then people would stop buying, but it has an element of fraud in it, so as to maximize profits, I suppose. See for example, built in obsolescence.
I think fraud is a loaded term and may impede the discussion a little.
Fraud aside, there is a clear interest for a perception of obsolescence to be pushed by the makers and marketeers of new products.
When evangelicalism went down the revivalist route it necessarily tapped into the same dynamic.
Book deals and conferences - especially when you have a somewhat captive audience in terms of your own movement - can make quite a lot of money for certain individuals.
The rise of the mega church, with the accompanied rise of the mega church pastor who doesn't actually do any pastoring (there are staff to do visitations, and much of the pastoral work is outsourced onto home groups) excaberates this issue. You basically end up with the heads of these churches not having a whole lot to do within their own churches - so obviously they are going to concentrate on their wider 'ministry'. Not all the people in this position necessarily have something to day beyond recycled business speak with a few motivational verses to make things scriptural.
At the more local end of things the values of entertainment and spirituality make uneasy bedfellows as brilliantly parodied by a number of authors/film makers. [I'd recommend PG Wodehouse's "The Aunt and the Sluggard" and the films "Leap of Faith" and "The Apostle"]
[ 15. July 2014, 10:21: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
|
Posted
Thanks for the recommendations. I'll return the favour with an interesting article (though much less entertaining than Wodehouse) Jörg Stolz, 'Salvation Goods and Religious Markets: Integrating Rational Choice and Weberian Perspectives' Social Compass, 2006.
K.
--------------------
"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Funny thing is G, you seem to be saying no to what I said when you mean yes. But that's just my rampant ego blinding and stupefying me further I'm sure. You ARE extrapolating from the Chalcedonian paradox to make other both/and paradoxes from either/or. The key one being freewill and determinism which you embrace elsewhere and the relevant other here being the material non-intervention of God and the miraculous. Or are you divining between bone and marrow and I'm too thick to see it as usual?
K is as ever all too beguilingly on the money, which I find troubling as I DO wish to be inclusive (oh wretched man that I am) of those who have to believe, like the majority of Christians, truths for them that can never be mine.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Gamaliel is 'work in progress', Martin. Looking for consistency isn't where it's at.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Cuh. Fuh. Huh. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) indeed
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
