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Source: (consider it) Thread: Doctor Who: The Eleventh Incarnation
Pious Pelican
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# 13120

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quote:
Originally posted by Off Centre View:


Since the Daleks have now been restored to their pre-Time War selves, could the same be done for the Time Lords? Is the Moff trying to undo everything from RTD's era - hence the mentioning of people not remembering stuff like the Daleks and the Cyberking?

I think Moffat has stated in an interview that he always hated episodes with endless Time Lord councils when he was young, so I'm guessing not. I am prepared to be proved wrong when Amy turns out to be the Rani or some such nonsense.

I doubt he is planning to rewrite all of the continuity, as that would mean erasing all of the RTD era, including the companions. I think the deal with the Daleks is that they wanted to bring them back permanently so they don't have to keep having naff plot devices to magic up a few Daleks escaping from the Time War every series.

My hope is that the crack and Amy not remembering stuff are somehow consequences of the Doctor going slightly evil in the Waters of Mars.

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O Lord, thou hast searched me out and known me: thou knowest my down-sitting and mine up-rising, thou understandest my thoughts long before.

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Sparrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
Surprised no-one's mentioned this, but ...

Having rather resigned myself to the idea that Father Octavian would turn out to be serving some evil Magisterium which had sent him to this planet to seize the Angel as a weapon to abuse children with ... [Eek!] ... I was rather pleasantly surprised by the entirely noble and self-sacrificing fate he was given, and his blessing to the Doctor, which was played entirely straight.

"Noble" was exactly what I thought too, especially his last comment to the Doctor - "Sir, I think you see me at my best"

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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
Surprised no-one's mentioned this, but ...

Having rather resigned myself to the idea that Father Octavian would turn out to be serving some evil Magisterium which had sent him to this planet to seize the Angel as a weapon to abuse children with ... [Eek!] ... I was rather pleasantly surprised by the entirely noble and self-sacrificing fate he was given, and his blessing to the Doctor, which was played entirely straight.

"Noble" was exactly what I thought too, especially his last comment to the Doctor - "Sir, I think you see me at my best"
I'd been prewarned of this by Paul Cornell himself - it was indeed magnificent as it played out.

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Forward the New Republic

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Gill H

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# 68

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Ian Glen is a Shakespearean actor, and it showed. And I mean that as a compliment.

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dorothea
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# 4398

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Ken wrote: [QUOTE So no, there are no continuity errors.] [/QUOTE]

but is there a sanity clause??

J?

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Protestant head? Catholic Heart?

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Panda
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I wonder if Amy's non-remembering of the Daleks means that her timeline is one without the Cybermen v. Daleks at Canary Wharf, Titanic, the Master taking over everyone's face etc. This way her timeline can actually be ours, and easier for us to relate to, whereas with the Christmas specials and all the rest of the hoo-ha, that timeline is now so far in the realm of science fiction it's getting difficult to keep up with.

This makes things much easier for all the writers!

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Jahlove
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# 10290

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Keeps returning to my mind that the Ood's continual refrain was *your song is ending* - have they taken syntax lessons from Yoda, I wonder and thus *your ending is Song*?

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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Jahlove
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# 10290

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Venetian Vampiric Dental Fashion, very

Don't Look Nowsferatu

Daylight?? Reflections??? hmm - gonna have to watch that again; didn't catch a lot of it - tho' I think someone's been reading Tim Powers' *The Stress of Her Regard* which has shapeshifting reptile§/stone statue/humanoid vampires who also have Venice as one of their strongholds.

§ tho' these guys' alt.shape looks more like crayfish! [Big Grin]

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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Jay-Emm
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# 11411

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I liked the 'library card', nice to acknowledge Dr Who having a past (while also not going to the other extreme).
Hope they can get the 2 companions working well..please (not a bad start).

Only question really is them being 'much worse than vampires', given he needed to use a 10 story stake (and bad special effects) to kill one in e-space and they were meant to be the Time Lords nightmares. His reaction didn't really fit (but who cares).

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Quinine
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# 1668

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quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
Venetian Vampiric Dental Fashion, very

Don't Look Nowsferatu

You're fired [Big Grin]
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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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That was a very silly ep. But then I can't stand constume dramas. Next week's seems better, dream vs reality. Ah well.

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Dormouse

Glis glis – Ship's rodent
# 5954

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I'm a very uncritical viewer. As usual, I loved it!

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M.
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I'm sure gondolas would have had little cabins on at that date.

SPOILERS

I enjoyed it too - vampires turning into fish people from outer space! What's not to like?

M.

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
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I thought this one was better. Liked Rory, and hope he stays around longer than Amy. But there was an ethical dilemma that seemed not to worry the Doctor at all - save a city and kill a race. Will this come back to ahunt him? (I really hope not, but I suspect it will.) Anyway, I think things are finally looking up.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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fletcher christian

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Don't normally watch Doc Who, but caught this episode. Was a bit hammy... is it always like that?

Bits of Venice looked like they had been designed by William Burgess [Paranoid]

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Paul.
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# 37

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Did anyone else not really believe that kiss?

Rory has spent the whole episode (whole season really) being the stereotypical safe, solid, slightly drippy boyfriend who contrasts with the exciting, intelligent, witty, exotic Doctor - who she leaves to travel with on the night before her wedding, and tries to snog (and probably more).

Then there are jokes about him being a eunuch and more like a brother than a fiance.

Finally we have a slapstick sword-fight in which yes he's defending her, but during which she shouts instructions ("hit him", "bring him this way") and looks exasperated when he uses the wrong end of the broom, and in which she has to save him in the end. At the end of all this she calls him a numpty for making the sign of the cross and then kisses him.

Where did this sudden swell of sexual attraction come from? It's like they want us to believe that they are again a viable couple but I don't see it in what they've actually shown us between the two of them.

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tessaB
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# 8533

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I thought this one was better. Liked Rory, and hope he stays around longer than Amy. But there was an ethical dilemma that seemed not to worry the Doctor at all - save a city and kill a race. Will this come back to ahunt him? (I really hope not, but I suspect it will.) Anyway, I think things are finally looking up.

I think it did worry him, after all he tried to stop 'mother' throwing herself into the water with her perception filter still on. I agree it wasn't spelt out but I think he would have tried to help if there had been any humanity (?) personhood (?) from her. It really bothered the doctor that she didn't even know Isabella's name. That is pure Doctor Who.

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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
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Dafyd
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# 5549

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I agree with TessaB. I think the Doctor would have been more sympathetic if she'd shown a bit more compunction about what she was doing.

By the way, I think Matt Smith's acting is really good. I noticed last week while the Doctor was talking Amy through the forest that his body language was doing a really good job of 'calm and upbeat on the surface (but scared stiff for her underneath)'.

[ 09. May 2010, 15:55: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Paul.
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# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
But there was an ethical dilemma that seemed not to worry the Doctor at all - save a city and kill a race.

He's not "killing" a race though is he? The aliens would presumably live out their lives in the waters of Venice and die out naturally, not being able to reproduce. Sad, but hardly the Doctor's fault and certainly not the same as him killing them.
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Matt Black

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# 2210

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Liked it on balance. 'Venice' was largely Trogir in Croatia, hence the partly unfamiliar look to it.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46

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Overall a fun episode.

Zooming into the keyhole - no cracks this time, I really thought there was going to be a crack in Tardis, or the keyhole would be crack shaped.

Although some clouds were crack shaped I read.

Love the meta-plot.

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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Matt, I actually thought it was
this

At least, the bedroom with its gilded walls and colourful ceiling looked very like it (even if the wiki photo is crap)

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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here's a rather better image of it

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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fluff
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# 12871

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I did enjoy that episode - as I am generally enjoying this series.

I thought I did recognize some of the chickens from "The Shakespeare Code" - so - nice to see a bit continuity there.

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Gill H

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# 68

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Yep, the inside was Castell Coch. I loved those rooms as a child and recognised the decor instantly.

I loved the sumptous look of it. The story was rather run of the mill (or even run of The Mill...) but it was fun.

Not sure about Rory. It felt like we were back with 'Mickey the Tin Dog' again. Doctor and companion being all smug and having fun together, and boyfriend trying to catch up. But Rory has a bit more spark about him than Mickey did at that point, so maybe he will grow on me.

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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.

- Lyda Rose

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Matt, I actually thought it was
this

At least, the bedroom with its gilded walls and colourful ceiling looked very like it (even if the wiki photo is crap)

I think you're right re the interior shot but a lot of the outside scenes, in particular the first view of the waterfront with the woman with the goat, were a combo of Venice and Trogir according to Confidential.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Sparrow
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# 2458

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quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
Rory has a bit more spark about him than Mickey did at that point, so maybe he will grow on me.

I liked the bit where he rounded on the Doctor and accused him of putting his companions' lives in danger . . . "you make them want to not let you down, they want to impress you"

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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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I thoroughly enjoyed Vampires of Venice. Script good, acting good, look great. It wasn't terribly scary, I thought, but then there's only so much vampirism you can get away with at 6 o'clock on a Saturday evening.

I especially liked Helen McCrory as the Signora. Her scenes with Matt Smith were very nicely played, and I liked his comeback when she offered him a "partnership" - "I'm a Time Lord, you're a big fish ... think of the children!"

But what really wanted to know was, what happened to Lucy, left outside the pub in Leadworth in her bikini? I do hope she was all right. (That scene, with the Doctor emerging from the cake, was hilarious!)

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Don't normally watch Doc Who, but caught this episode. Was a bit hammy... is it always like that?

The problem and the wonder of Dr Who is that it deals with the far-out-of-the-ordinary, so neither the acting nor the scripts tend to be low-key or naturalistic. Even the main character, the Doctor, is a 900+ year old alien, currently inhabiting his eleventh body. How is any actor supposed to play that? Tom Baker once said he thought about this for a long time before deciding the best thing to do was to play the Doctor as Tom Baker (which many people would say is quite alien enough!). Matt Smith seems to be following pretty much the same line (judging from Matt's personality as shown in interviews) but adding a few mannerisms that communicate a sort of discomfort with humans and their social conventions.

The companions don't have an easy job, either. I think it was Louise Jameson (Leela) who once said that there are only so many ways an actress can say "What's happening, Doctor?"

So yes, it's often a bit hammy (but watch out for the rare, magnificent moments when it's genuinely moving). It's over-the-top, glitzy, outrageous and enormous fun. Enjoy.

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Hugal
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# 2734

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As mentioned the Doctor did not kill of the race. The mother killing her self meant that they could not reproduce so they would die out. Didn't the alien fish want to take over the whole planet and get rid of the humans? In which case the Doctor was saving one race at the expense of another. A clear choice.
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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Hugal:
Didn't the alien fish want to take over the whole planet and get rid of the humans?

She said she only wanted one city, so not the whole human race.
I suppose it's just about possible that the Doctor would have let her get away with it if she'd bothered to learn the names of everyone she was going to drown (and if it wouldn't have messed up the space-time continuum).

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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I think the fact that she didn't know the name of her victim was an indication - to the doctor at least - that she didn't really care about humans as anything other than a means to reproduction. That meant that letting them continue would probably have resulted in them taking over the world, whatever their initial intentions were.

And while he didn't kill them, he did doom them. I am not sure how different that is really. But it doesn't answer why ( yukiness apart ) the queen could not have mated with some of her own sons to produce more offspring? Why the elaborate metamorphasis had to happen at all? Why the few girls they already had were not enough? OK, it is a long and slow process, but a few girls is all that is needed. In fact, one, but a number would provide failsafes.

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Gill H

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# 68

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think the fact that she didn't know the name of her victim was an indication - to the doctor at least - that she didn't really care about humans as anything other than a means to reproduction.

And an indication to me that the Doctor seems to have got over his God complex to some extent. It was very much a feature of both the 9th and 10th Doctor that he bothered to learn people's names and cared about ordinary people. So when he started blathering on about 'the little people' in Waters of Mars it was an indication of just how dangerous his hubris had become.

He still wasn't quite over it by Tennant's last episode. I remember wincing when he didn't bother remembering the names of the 'cactus people'.

So I think making a point of it now is deliberate.

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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.

- Lyda Rose

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Hugal
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# 2734

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Hugal:
Didn't the alien fish want to take over the whole planet and get rid of the humans?

She said she only wanted one city, so not the whole human race.
Yep you are right DI stand correted. Still though, it starts in with Venice. She didn't strike me as the kind of character who would be happy with just one city when there is a whole world out there to be populated, and of course eaten.

[ 12. May 2010, 11:44: Message edited by: Hugal ]

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I have never done this trick in these trousers before.

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Hugal
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# 2734

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Sorry for the double post. I missed the edit window. It should read Dafyd I not DI.

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I have never done this trick in these trousers before.

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rufiki

Ship's 'shroom
# 11165

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Isn't there a bigger issue than the species vs city choice? The fish-aliens arrived on Earth through a crack in space-time. They weren't supposed to be there. If they'd carried out their plan, it would have altered Earth history. And we all know what the Doctor thinks about changing history.
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Ariel
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# 58

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Interesting, amusing episode, even slightly creepy in places. I liked the metaphysical twist - this was a bit more thought-provoking than other recent episodes. One of the better episodes in this series.

Unfortunately, Amy's still in it, but you can't have everything.

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tessaB
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# 8533

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Very creepy. Particularly when we find out exactly who the Dream Lord is.
I do find anything to do with dreams and reality quite interesting and potentially scary. How do we know what is dream and what is real life, when we dream we sometimes know it is a dream but sometimes it can feel so true that even on waking we can be confused.

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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye

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leo
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# 1458

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Greatly enjoyed it - When is a dream not a dream? AS Level philosophy stuff.

I also think the current doctor is one of the best.

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Wesley J

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# 6075

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Excellent stuff this week. Liked it very much indeed. Next week should be good as well.

I wonder if we'll now see in some of the more decrepit housing estates an increase in attacks on eldery peeps by yobs in Volkswagen camper vans? [Disappointed]

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290

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OTOH it may also inspire the old folks to fight back with lawnmowers and other garden implements.

Liked the Dreamlord very much even tho' he didn't finish the limerick.

Slightly bemused that no-one was sporting the Big Pointy Teef this week - I thought it was a running motif like Bad Wolf.

So glad Rory cut off that ghastly pony-tail [Big Grin]

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

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# 2210

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Very PoMo; loved it.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
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# 5549

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It was always pretty obvious that the future village wasn't real.
Is it me or was the Doctor's dark side not all that dark actually? There wasn't ever any real risk of actual death (well, I suppose they'd have died of thirst eventually...) and the end result was that Amy realises that she loves the man she's marrying really. More of a Jungian dark side bringing out things that people had been keeping in their subconscious than a true evil side.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jahlove
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# 10290

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hmm, well the Dreamlord's idea of a fun joke, albeit his humour was somewhat testy and sarcastic, was that you end up dead if you make the wrong choice if you're not clever - or lucky - enough to figure out the truth while under assault from competing delusions, any of which were fairly plausible. And he didn't seem too bothered about it. Evil? Maybe not, more like callous.

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gill H

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# 68

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
It was always pretty obvious that the future village wasn't real.

The street with the butcher is - my parents live there! [Biased]

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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.

- Lyda Rose

Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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I seem to be going against the trend, I thought it was weak and didn't like it at all.

M.

Edited to add: though I do think Matt Smith is turning out to be a fantastic Doctor.

[ 16. May 2010, 10:19: Message edited by: M. ]

Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gill H

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# 68

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I quite liked it, but didn't think it was as creepy as it should have been. The Dream Lord was great (if a bit too 'Q' perhaps!) but the explanation was a bit meh...

... unless of course, that reflection at the end means there is more to it.

Remember what a good job Moffat did with 'Jekyll' - he could be revisiting that territory perhaps?

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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.

- Lyda Rose

Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
The Dream Lord was great (if a bit too 'Q' perhaps!) but the explanation was a bit meh...

... unless of course, that reflection at the end means there is more to it.

I could be wrong. But wasn't the laugh at the end actually from "off-stage"? Maybe I just read too much into it, but seemed that way to me, with the Doctor looking round quickly, surprised and slightly nervous.

It struck me as a very Peter Davison sort of episode. Like Castrovalva, Enlightenment and a couple of others whose names I can't remember, but where they primarily played with thought-provoking ideas.

I'll be interested to see if in a future episode the Doctor gets stuck in Groundhog Day.

[Biased]

Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Exegesis Fairy
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# 9588

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I LOVED that episode. In the 'Matt Smith really won me over in it' kind of way. It was, I thought, an episode that played to his...essential Doctorness... that's not quite what I mean.

But I thought I saw him inhabiting the role, and he had me believing him in it consistently.

Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that felt so real...what if you were unable to wake from that dream?

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I can only please one person a day.
Today is not your day.
Tomorrow doesn't look good either.

Posts: 500 | From: the clear blue sky | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
hmm, well the Dreamlord's idea of a fun joke, albeit his humour was somewhat testy and sarcastic, was that you end up dead if you make the wrong choice if you're not clever - or lucky - enough to figure out the truth while under assault from competing delusions, any of which were fairly plausible. And he didn't seem too bothered about it. Evil? Maybe not, more like callous.

The bit about actually ending up dead was untrue. The two scenarios in which they were actually in danger were both unreal; they weren't in any real danger in reality.

The Matt Smith Doctor is outwardly more insecure and less convinced of his own cleverness than the David Tennant Doctor was. Even so I'm pretty sure that underneath it all every side of the Doctor thinks that the Doctor is very clever indeed.

I'm not saying that the Dreamlord was nice. Or even not cruel. He was enjoying scaring his victims. But I think when it came down to it, he wasn't actually going to do anything more than that. I suppose: there are some things that the Doctor would never do, and the Dreamlord, being part of the Doctor, would never do them either.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by The Exegesis Fairy:
Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that felt so real...what if you were unable to wake from that dream?

At fist I thought the ending was weak, all they had to do was nothing and they die in both 'realities.'

The danger of choosing one dream over the other is that they get stuck in that dream, so in that way Amy's choice was always going to be the wrong one.

Though Amy is starting to grow on me. I like the subdued way that Karen Gillan acted in Rory's death scene, very quiet and still.

Next week drilling into the Earth. Where have I seen that before? (Two word clue: John and Pertwee.)

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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged



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