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Source: (consider it) Thread: Doctor Who: The Eleventh Incarnation
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Well tonight's episode doesn't sound riveting. The Radio Times describes it as, "Doctor Who does humour," which fails to thrill me. Still, the end of the season is now in sight. Let's hope something comes together by then.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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tessaB
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# 8533

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I really enjoyed tonight's episode. James Cordon was very good, not as laddish as I was expecting and really believable as the wanna-be boyfriend who couldn't bring himself to declare his love.
Football of course had to figure in there somewhere [Biased]

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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
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fluff
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# 12871

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I really did enjoy that episode so much - lots of interesting ideas in it, I thought, and Matt Smith, really fantastic in the role.
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Roseofsharon
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# 9657

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Random thought:
The Tenth Doctor's problem was that deep down part of him thought he was God.
The Eleventh Doctor's problem is that deep down part of him thinks that he's only a madman with a box.

Or an ancient amateur. [Biased]

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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Well tonight's episode doesn't sound riveting. The Radio Times describes it as, "Doctor Who does humour," which fails to thrill me.

It was played for laughs, which didn't disguise a weak plotline, just padded out the episode. Matt Smith still hasn't quite got there yet.

Looking forward to next week - River Song is back!

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Pheonix

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# 2782

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I thought it was quite good generally... I noticed that this incarnation of the doctor, or at least in this series, seems to be a case of very much showing us how he isn't human in terms of how he reacts to humans and their emotions/customs.

I don't see there is much build up to the end of season finale though other than another shot of the crack at the end...

Also going back to Silence in the Library and the mention of the Byzantine by River makes me wonder if the episodes to this series or at least the theme/majority of the outline weren't all worked out long ago by RTD and Moffat has had to just follow it to some extent. He's better at writing episodes than I've seen this series. It has gone from a must see when it's on to a I can watch the recording later.

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Well, I did find that very dull. All of it, but especially Matt Smith playing football. Maybe everything will change when the final revelations get made but it felt like an episode that could have happened anywhere, any time, and still been a bore.

Mind you, I liked the idea of headbutting knowledge into people. Maybe I should try it on some of my students....

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Paul.
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# 37

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I liked it - but then I also like Love and Monsters.
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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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Hated it. The aspect of The Doctor trying to be human was funny, but I really didn't like the conclusion. I wanted the alien upstairs to be eating or torturing the humans, not just be a stupid version of the Doctor from Voyager.

And a perception filter that makes everyone see a second floor of the house, makes everyone remember that it was always there, and making stairs appear that people can climb up, is going a bit too far.

And what happened to the ship? I can sort of understand that the perception filter disappeared and the top story vanished and you saw the ship, but then why did the ship vanish in the same way?

Good and interesting idea, poorly executed. IMO.

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Avila
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# 15541

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The ship was supposed to be implodding which is why they left it in a hurry - so that's where that went but S's Cat has a point about the stairs - how can people walk up an illusion?

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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Presumably the stairs were physically part of the ship.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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I liked it, although some of it was a bit padded out. The thing that I found most unsatisfactory was the Doctor not knowing how to behave normally - he has been around humans, particularly late 20th/early 21st UK humans for a long time. I wonder if that's going somewhere? Last week, he didn't know how time passed normally, which also struck me as odd.

And I hate, hate, hate these stupid gizmos he keeps building out of buckets and brooms and stuff.

But it was an entertaining episode and I enjoyed it. Matt Smith makes a great doctor. I'm looking forward to next week!

M.

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St Everild
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# 3626

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I liked the reference to Van Gogh on the fridge door!
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rufiki

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# 11165

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quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I liked it, although some of it was a bit padded out. The thing that I found most unsatisfactory was the Doctor not knowing how to behave normally - he has been around humans, particularly late 20th/early 21st UK humans for a long time. I wonder if that's going somewhere? Last week, he didn't know how time passed normally, which also struck me as odd.

He also didn't know why he was called the Doctor, when introducing himself to Craig.
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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
The ship was supposed to be implodding which is why they left it in a hurry - so that's where that went but S's Cat has a point about the stairs - how can people walk up an illusion?

So it should have imploded, not disappeared like the upper story.

I guess that the stairs were part of the ship, but then is the perception filter making people think they are climbing stairs, when it is a part of the ship? And did it actually break through the roof? And if that is the case how did the alien operate the front door?

Now I know that trying to make everything make sense in DW is a bad idea, but these are ( for me ) glaring problems that spoil the story completely.

On a side note, I always struggle with the abbreviation DW. I had a friend whose family used to call farts Windies, and the more "solid" version Dirty Windies, or DW's. So I am not sure it is a positive connection.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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WNG: Looking at the Next Time credits, the Pandorica is supposed to contain 'a goblin, a trickster, a warrior, soaked in the blood of a billion galaxies, the most feared thing in the universe'.

I wonder if it's just me: if you omit the 'soaked in the blood of a billion galaxies' bit, who in the Doctor Who universe would you think that referred to?

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Pheonix

Twisted fire starter
# 2782

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the doctor gone bad?
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Gill H

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# 68

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The Master? (Please not again. I loved SaxonMaster but HoodieMaster was a bit too much.)

Or - duh - The Trickster?

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- Lyda Rose

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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Hm. The Lodger was all right. Bits of it were brilliant - mostly Matt Smith's bits (not a reference to the shower scene, but I loved the part where he popped up from behind the sofa to ask where the screwdriver's on-switch was). Other bits were dull. The resolution - such as it was - was pretty bad, but I think we expect that from Gareth Roberts (The Unicorn and the Wasp, The Shakespeare Code).

I'm afraid I'm starting to become one of those curmudgeons who think there's something a bit lacklustre about this season. For me, there have been only three really good stories - Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, Amy's Choice and Vincent and the Doctor. And the first 15 minutes of The Eleventh Hour was pure genius. Apart from that, it's all turning out a bit ... well, you remember the first half of season three? Me neither.

My worry about the finale - judging purely from Saturday's "Next Time" trailer - is that it'll be a hotch-potch, over-full of trying to tie up loose ends.

--------------------
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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm afraid I'm starting to become one of those curmudgeons who think there's something a bit lacklustre about this season.

Hello there.

I want to like this series. It's Doctor Who, after all, a great British tradition that spans the generations, unites families, enables people to make friends across the globe, brings world peace, etc. But this series has been a disappointment. Maybe now that they're recycling old plotlines (I'm sure we had The Alien in the Attic with Perception Filters before) it's just run out of steam, and time to call it a day?

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Sparrow
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# 2458

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm afraid I'm starting to become one of those curmudgeons who think there's something a bit lacklustre about this season.

Hello there.

I want to like this series. It's Doctor Who, after all, a great British tradition that spans the generations, unites families, enables people to make friends across the globe, brings world peace, etc. But this series has been a disappointment. Maybe now that they're recycling old plotlines (I'm sure we had The Alien in the Attic with Perception Filters before) it's just run out of steam, and time to call it a day?

I tend to agree. I don't think it's anything to do with Matt Smith, I think he's been brilliant. It's the writing.

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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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Matt Smith's acting has been excellent. I've just been watching some of the Tom Baker episodes and I'm slightly surprised that Tom Baker doesn't act like Matt Smith rather than the other way round. The only criticism of Matt Smith is that he's a bit young. (Forget the policemen being younger than I am; the Doctor's be younger than I am! Is wrong.)

I think I would agree that the series so far has lacked any absolutely essential episodes. They haven't had Paul Cornell or one of the Moffatt episodes from the first three seasons. On the other hand, they haven't had a Planet of the Ood yet. There haven't been any episodes that I've regretted watching or thought unmitigated rubbish.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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I don't think it's time to call it a day, and I do think Matt Smith is brilliant - the show is very lucky to have him. And I agree with Dafyd, we haven't had anything really bad this year (the nearest, imho, was Victory of the Daleks, but even that had its moments).

It's a pity, I think, that Russell T Davies broke his ties with the show so completely. I've been a fan of his since Queer as Folk and I think he's one of the best tv writers currently working. I'd have liked to see one story this year by him, if only to see how RTD overseen by Moffat compared to Moffat overseen by RTD!

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Pheonix:
I thought it was quite good generally...

Brilliant I thought. One of the better ones.

quote:

I don't see there is much build up to the end of season finale though other than another shot of the crack at the end...

I'm fed up with that crack altogether. This series would have been better if they had just forgotten the whole thing. Too much like the previous ones.

Maybe whats in the crack is Russell TD "Surprised you!!!!!!!"

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
It's the writing.

If anybody knows the Moff, you can let him know I'm available...

...my rates are very reasonable, too. [Big Grin]

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Forward the New Republic

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The Revolutionist
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# 4578

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I enjoyed The Lodger - a good character-led episode for the second week running. In this series, there seems to be less reliance on putting the entire world in epic peril each week, which makes a refreshing change.

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm afraid I'm starting to become one of those curmudgeons who think there's something a bit lacklustre about this season. For me, there have been only three really good stories - Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, Amy's Choice and Vincent and the Doctor. And the first 15 minutes of The Eleventh Hour was pure genius.

I'd agree with you that those three are the stand-out stories. I wouldn't describe this series as "lacklustre", but I would say it hasn't quite met my expectations for how the show would do under Steven Moffat. Given how good his contributions were to previous seasons, I expected a bit more from his vision of the show. It's been good, but it hasn't done anything quite as new or as brave as I hoped.

Even if the finale turns out to be mind-bendingly clever and timey-wimey, I'd rather that Moffat spent his time making sure that each individual episode made good sense, rather than leaving plot logic as a luxury to be saved for the finale. (Arguably the opposite of RTD, where logic would fly out the window in the finales [Biased] )

RTD was brilliant at characters and big emotional moments, but less good at carefully worked-out plot logic. I'd hoped that Steven Moffat would add clever plotting to what had gone before, but instead we seem to have lost some of the depth of characterisation and emotion, with the story logic remaining just as wobbly as before. Victory of the Daleks was the worst offender in this respect - but it was still great fun.

quote:
Apart from that, it's all turning out a bit ... well, you remember the first half of season three?
That run of really good episodes from Smith and Jones on, including all-time classic Gridlock? I remember them very well! [Smile]
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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
RTD was brilliant at characters and big emotional moments, but less good at carefully worked-out plot logic.

Characters, maybe, and small emotional moments. It did seem to me that RTD couldn't let a big emotional moment go past without hitting us with a narm brick.
YMMV obviously. I speak as a member of the 'RTD's best episode was Midnight' club.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Esmeralda

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# 582

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
The ship was supposed to be implodding which is why they left it in a hurry - so that's where that went but S's Cat has a point about the stairs - how can people walk up an illusion?

So it should have imploded, not disappeared like the upper story.

I guess that the stairs were part of the ship, but then is the perception filter making people think they are climbing stairs, when it is a part of the ship? And did it actually break through the roof? And if that is the case how did the alien operate the front door?

Now I know that trying to make everything make sense in DW is a bad idea, but these are ( for me ) glaring problems that spoil the story completely.

NO, the really unbelievable thing was that that type of Edwardian terraced house would ever have been built with only one story. I should know, I live in Muswell Hill where every house is an Edwardian terrace.

[ 14. June 2010, 22:07: Message edited by: Esmeralda ]

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http://reversedstandard.wordpress.com/

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Paul.
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# 37

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What do you all make of the fact that apparently Eccleston didn't enjoy his experience on Who?
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Carys

Ship's Celticist
# 78

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quote:
Originally posted by Esmeralda:
NO, the really unbelievable thing was that that type of Edwardian terraced house would ever have been built with only one story. I should know, I live in Muswell Hill where every house is an Edwardian terrace.

I thought that too, though they did manage to make it look just about ok after the top storey disappeared but a terrace with one build of one storey?

Carys

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

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The Rogue
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# 2275

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Ecclestone didn't say he didn't enjoy it at all, just that the culture of the work didn't agree with him. He was (quite rightly) proud of bringing the Doctor back and saw that as more important than him leaving after one season.

As it turns out I think his Doctor was the right way to bring the series back; Tennant's Doctor built on that and he would not have worked nearly as well if Ecclestone hadn't broken the ground.

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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?

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Sparrow
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# 2458

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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by Esmeralda:
NO, the really unbelievable thing was that that type of Edwardian terraced house would ever have been built with only one story. I should know, I live in Muswell Hill where every house is an Edwardian terrace.

I thought that too, though they did manage to make it look just about ok after the top storey disappeared but a terrace with one build of one storey?

Carys

Wasn't it the end of terrace house? Maybe they made people think it had been seriously bomb damaged in the war and only rebuilt with one storey.

--------------------
For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Robin
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# 71

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Diane Duane (author of the Young Wizards series and other fantasy works) tweeted as follows about The Lodger

quote:
Ok. This evening's Dr. Who... has broken the fourth wall in ways it's never been broken before. METAbroken it. I am astounded.

I am confused. What am I missing here? Can anyone suggest how this episode "broke the fourth wall"?

Robin

P.S. Thanks to the Powers that Be who have confirmed that it's OK to quote tweets on the boards.

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Paul.
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# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
Ecclestone didn't say he didn't enjoy it at all, just that the culture of the work didn't agree with him.

Meaning what though? Sounds like a polite way of saying he didn't get on with either RTD or one or other of the producers.
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Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by Robin:
Diane Duane (author of the Young Wizards series and other fantasy works) tweeted as follows about The Lodger

quote:
Ok. This evening's Dr. Who... has broken the fourth wall in ways it's never been broken before. METAbroken it. I am astounded.

I am confused. What am I missing here? Can anyone suggest how this episode "broke the fourth wall"?

Robin

P.S. Thanks to the Powers that Be who have confirmed that it's OK to quote tweets on the boards.

I didn't see any 'talking to the viewers' either [Confused]

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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Broke the fourth wall? There has been at least one Dr Who episodes where the program itself came on the telly and the characters only just left the room in time to miss it.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Roseofsharon
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# 9657

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quote:
Originally posted by Robin:
Can anyone suggest how this episode "broke the fourth wall"?

Perhaps she meant the part when the Doctor transferred his history into Craig's head?
It was obvious that the information was confirmation of things that Craig already had some awareness of - as though he had heard, or seen, it all before in the form of legend, myth, or TV programme. [Biased]

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Posts: 3060 | From: Sussex By The Sea | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Paul.
Shipmate
# 37

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Having skimmed through it again, the closest thing I could find to breaking the fourth wall was a couple of times when the Doctor tells us what's going on - "so you have two sets of keys for a house you don't live in, you must like it here" - but that's not really breaking the fourth wall.

Perhaps there's something in the fact that the wall was "METAbroken". Not sure what she means by that.

Maybe saying to the audience "you think you've avoided watching football but you'll be sucked into it anyway".

Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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okay

Metaphysics - beyond physics
Metabroken - beyond broken

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Diane Duane has written many very pleasant, exceedingly light weight books. They are an entertaining way of passing time if you are bored or depressed, but do not bear the weight of thought as they are riddled with inconsictencies and contradictions. To find that her Twitter is as deep as her novels is no great surprise.

(And, before anyone asks, I'm not going to supply examples. I've read a lot of her stuff, but it's on the basis of: "read once and give copy to charity shop". Feel free to dismiss me as arrogant and posturing therefore; I recognise the description.)

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
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# 4992

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There was no breaking of the fourth wall in The Lodger, only a slightly dodgy ceiling.

The most interesting breaking of the wall in recent Who was, I think, in Blink. We were told the Angels couldn't move when they were being looked at - what we actually got was the Angels being unable to move when the tv viewer was looking at them. It was the fourth wall breaking inwards, not outwards. That changed, of course, in Flesh and Stone when we did see the Angels moving.

On Christopher Eccleston: I think it's long been assumed that he left the show because he was well and truly cheesed of with something, but the quotations from the Radio Times interview don't give us much of an idea what that something was. He mentions the conditions that the cast and crew were working under, which suggests that something might have gone wrong with the BBC Powers That Be. I don't think he's criticising RTD - Eccleston knew RTD when they'd worked on Second Coming together. I think Eccleston had even been approached for a role in Queer as Folk, so I think the blame for his cheesed-offness must lie elsewhere.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Paul.
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# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Metaphysics - beyond physics
Metabroken - beyond broken

Sure - but I'm never sure when people use the prefix meta- that they're using it correctly.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992

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What's the betting that either during tonight's episode or next week's, every single one of us is going to see something that makes us go, "Oh, that's what that meant, n weeks ago!"? (Obviously we won't say "n". Well I suppose some of us with a taste for abstraction might.)

So let's 'fess up, when we're talking about the season finale. What are those lightbulb moments?

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411

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Riverdance definately expect the killing, there seemed to be a secret conversation with Amy so I suspect something she knows about Amy will turn up*, and when does she get the screwdriver?)

Rory, I don't want him to just be a conveniently removed obstacle to Amy and her Dr, and we'll find out whether the writers respect him.

Amy relation to crack, the "I'm running and I want you" scene (Even granted her actions being normal and me being the special with ignoreme fields, the running comment still is a bit strange)

*my crazy theory is identity

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andythehat

Ship's Flying Monk
# 10399

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And if the thing inside the pandorica - the destroyer of worlds or whatever - isn't the Doctor, I'll eat my hat.

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Get your warm fuzzy feeling here!

Posts: 302 | From: Cambridge, but now Malmesbury, Wiltshire | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533

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quote:
Originally posted by andythehat:
And if the thing inside the pandorica - the destroyer of worlds or whatever - isn't the Doctor, I'll eat my hat.

No hat eating necessary andy, the doctor is now firmly in the pandorica!

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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye

Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

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I believe the fan consensus on the Autons is that they are silly one note bad guys. All they can do is burst through shop windows and shoot people. When they try to get beyond that, we get evil wheelie bins and blatantly plastic Mickey.

Make that 'the fan consensus was...'

I was thinking there was a continuity error since most of those aliens didn't have time travel. Nope.

I thought for a moment it was all going to be in Amy's head. Apparently not (for now anyway). Just the autons/daleks/cybermen et al raiding Amy's room for ideas.
Questions still to be answered:
1) Why did the Tardis take off to 2010 and then explode? (I would like there to be an explanation for this beyond the plot requires it.)
2) What in particular about Amy's life just doesn't make sense? (That is, apart from her not having parents and the Doctor apparently being even worse at jumping five minutes into the future than usual.) And does the duck pond have anything to do with it?
3) How are they going to get out of that then?

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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I do have this horrible feeling it's going to be all in Amy's head. Apart from River, of course.

Hmmm. There is a worrying tendency to get bigger and bigger, isn't there?

Enjoyed it, though. Was ridiculously excited at the beginning, though I'm not sure the alliance is such a good idea. But nothing exists anymore and never has, so it doesn't matter, does it? Perhaps next week, there will just be a blank screen for 40 minutes?

M.

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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I do have this horrible feeling it's going to be all in Amy's head. Apart from River, of course.

Suddenly in this episode Amy has remembered the Daleks, which she didn't in an earlier episode. I expect when the Tardis blows up, taking River with it, it'll have timey-wimey implications that will catapult them all back into a parallel universe where Rory never died, Amy hasn't been killed, the Doctor isn't in the Pandoricon, and the Tardis is still intact. Somehow the resulting energy - or the sonic screwdriver - will close the crack in the wall.

(The Tardis will have to be still intact if there are to be any more episodes. They can't leave the Doctor stuck in the Pandoricon for the rest of eternity, and it's not going to be much of a series if he's earthbound.)

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tessaB
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# 8533

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I do have this horrible feeling it's going to be all in Amy's head. Apart from River, of course.

Suddenly in this episode Amy has remembered the Daleks, which she didn't in an earlier episode.
Although Amy did meet the daleks after not remembering them. So it is not a continuity error, as she didn't have to remember any of the previous outings.

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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye

Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged



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