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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Doctor Who: Silence will fall - the Doctor Who thread returns
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
I also dislike the Celebritification of the Doctor, making him into some universally-recognised figure.
But one of the things that I liked about this story is that it calls that into question, and shows the Doctor getting into problems because of it - River Song in particular takes him to task for it at the end.
We also now know that she was created as a weapon against the Doctor. I reckon he might have a big wake-up call in the offing.
What, like last series? And pretty much the whole of Tennant's run, especially towards the end - Waters of Mars, anyone? That's apparently the way this is heading, but it's been done to death. Now, if it's handled in such a way that you actually see the Doctor as the bad guy, and maybe realise that Kovarian's basically good...
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
It was the how Madam K left part, rather than the baby, that was exercising me. After all, she's kidnapped someone earlier than expected before. I do think it's a bit of a cheat to have had Amy taken before the series started, though.
Penny
Madame K went cos they marched everyone off the ... rock... and sent them away, didn't they? Hence being left with an empty planet/asteroid to not register life signs on.
But I don't believe the Dr knew Amy was missing much before the last couple of episodes, or how can he justify buggering about and having fun on random planets and not searching for her with a bit more focus?
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
If the Doctor is seen as the Big Bad, a dark legend, how come the people opposing him do so using bad methods? To be convincing they'd have to look good, wouldn't they? Like a bunch of Franciscan friars, or non-violent protestors.
What do we want? No Doctor. When don't we want him? Now. Or then, either.
Passive resistance to the Doctor. Wouldn't lead to very dramatic plots, though. Less frenetic, more time to explain. Wouldn't suit Moffat.
Interesting point he made about rules, though. The good don't need them. He has many, so he is not good. But wouldn't seeing the need for self restraint, and applying it against strong urges to abandon it be the action of someone good?
(Doesn't fit with the Cyber elimination, though. Which doesn't fit with the previous behaviour.)
Penny
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Wayfaring Stranger
Apprentice
# 15081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
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Originally posted by wilson:
Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)
Do you mean the one about Amy and Rory spending their wedding night on the Tardis?
I meant the scene where the Victorian Silurian and her maid/lover are in the control room and she says something about all mammals looking alike. Then she says, "Oh was I being insensitive again? I don't know why you put up with me." At which point her very long, agile lizard tongue flicks out to stop the soldiers escaping. The women exchange a brief meaningful glance.
OK, so I have a filthy mind...
I have to say, that one went right over my head.
The Stevie Wonder joke made me laugh out loud though.
Posts: 11 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Interesting point he made about rules, though. The good don't need them. He has many, so he is not good. But wouldn't seeing the need for self restraint, and applying it against strong urges to abandon it be the action of someone good?
I think Davies brought in that aspect of the Doctor's character, but I'm not convinced it's quite consistent with the classic Doctor. To some extent I think the Doctor never saw a rule that he wasn't prepared to at least bend when human life or happiness was at stake.
The Doctor should be a poster boy for the old-fashioned liberal humanism that was supposedly destroyed by the Twentieth Century: he should believe that everyone is good at heart, that evil results from fear, and that fear is dispelled by knowledge and understanding. Therefore, he shouldn't believe that people need to be kept in check by rules.
That's one reason why the daleks and cybermen are such good villains: not only are they the antithesis of the Doctor's values, they also bring those values into question. Daleks were designed by Davros to not be good at heart.
I don't mind (mild) hostility to organised religion in Doctor Who, because organised religion is one of the things that the liberal humanist tradition has traditionally been hostile too. (Although I think Barbara and Ian must have been practicing Christians: they don't think it would be out of character for them to claim to have been missionaries for two years.)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I assumed the many rules are for himself, not those he applies to others.
Penny
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
Loved the Silurian, she should work with Sherlock Homes sometime.
Disliked the 'full company onstage' aspect as it's been done to death. It's like a little boy getting all his toys out at once.
Re the celebrity Doctor - have we forgotten Martha's John the Baptist act and Floaty Tinkerbell Jesus Doctor? (I know I've tried to...)
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
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Originally posted by wilson:
Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)
Do you mean the one about Amy and Rory spending their wedding night on the Tardis?
I meant the scene where the Victorian Silurian and her maid/lover are in the control room and she says something about all mammals looking alike. Then she says, "Oh was I being insensitive again? I don't know why you put up with me." At which point her very long, agile lizard tongue flicks out to stop the soldiers escaping. The women exchange a brief meaningful glance.
OK, so I have a filthy mind...
I have to say, that one went right over my head.
And when her 'maid' gets mistaken for a boy, she says "Oh, no, she's all woman".
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
If the Doctor is seen as the Big Bad, a dark legend, how come the people opposing him do so using bad methods? To be convincing they'd have to look good, wouldn't they? Like a bunch of Franciscan friars, or non-violent protestors.
Would they? The Moff's said that everyone thinks of themselves as good, but consider the next episode, whenever it's due to air: Let's Kill Hitler. That's a staple of rewriting history plots, and the standard example to show that however distasteful war may be, sometimes it's the best thing to do. You'd have to be seriously pacifist to oppose that war. In fact, I strongly suspect that the thrust of the episode will only be tangential to Hitler, and may not feature him at all (I deliberately avoid trailers and spoilers, so the trailers may have already debunked this theory, making me look really stupid). I think the story will either be about rewriting history (or attempting to), particularly in relation to River's history and the Doctor's future-history, or else it'll start to paint the Doctor as the Bad Guy who must be stopped. It might even be about people trying to kill the Doctor or change history to prevent him turning bad/existing.
Much of what's been going on could be seen very differently from the other side of the fence. The exceptions, I think, are the Headless Monks (who might just seem sinister because they're mysterious and alien) and the whole kidnapping thing, but again, we were prepared to do some pretty nasty things in WWII, and I'm sure we would have kidnapped one pregnant woman to take her baby if it would have won the war. After all, the "good guys" bombed Dresden and nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
quote:
Interesting point he made about rules, though. The good don't need them. He has many, so he is not good. But wouldn't seeing the need for self restraint, and applying it against strong urges to abandon it be the action of someone good?
(Doesn't fit with the Cyber elimination, though. Which doesn't fit with the previous behaviour.)
The "rules" thing is new. Or at least if the Doctor had rules before, they were informal, and applied on the level of Star Trek's Prime Directive, being dragged out occasionally when the plot required it, and cheerfully ignored the rest of the time because they just get in the way. And having rules is one thing, but sticking to them is quite another, as the Cyberfleet would attest. If you need so many rules, and don't always stick to them even then, I'd say that makes you pretty dangerous. Substitute Doctor for knife/gun/bomb and see how safe you feel.
There's been lots about him losing control when he's angry - I wonder if (wild speculation alert) there's a strange timey-wimey thing going on, and he's dangerous because of what he's going to do, but only because he's angry at the things Madame K et al have done to try to stop him. After all, he's zipping about all over time and space, so he may well end up doing Bad Things in our past in his future. Knowing this, he planned the picnic and his death so that Rory, Amy and River would try to rewrite history to prevent it, and in doing so, by a sort of timey-wimey butterfly effect, break the self-perpetuating cycle of aggression, which in itself is quite a neat metaphor for war in general.
That's probably complete bollocks, but I like the idea, so I'll leave it there on the off-chance that some part of it ends up being close to what happens. Apologies for loser-length post.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
If the Doctor is seen as the Big Bad, a dark legend, how come the people opposing him do so using bad methods? To be convincing they'd have to look good, wouldn't they? Like a bunch of Franciscan friars, or non-violent protestors.
What do we want? No Doctor. When don't we want him? Now. Or then, either.
Passive resistance to the Doctor. Wouldn't lead to very dramatic plots, though. Less frenetic, more time to explain. Wouldn't suit Moffat.
Now that would be an interesting story! The Doctor, hell-bent on the destruction of some alien menace, finds himself at odds with a passive-resistance protest group.
I don't think it's been done before, at least on tv, though there are parallels. The very first Dalek story saw the Doctor and Ian talking the Thals out of their pacifism. Then there was Professor Jones's commune in The Green Death protesting against the chemicals factory that UNIT had been ordered to protect.
I wonder how the story would work out?
I wonder, also, if the Doctor's "death" (I assume I should be putting "death" in quotes!) in The Impossible Astronaut is his attempt to make the universe at large believe he's dead and, as it were, reset his reputation to zero?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I wonder, also, if the Doctor's "death" (I assume I should be putting "death" in quotes!) in The Impossible Astronaut is his attempt to make the universe at large believe he's dead and, as it were, reset his reputation to zero?
Nice theory. However, if he were arranging his death in that fashion I'd assume he'd have it witnessed by more than three / four trusted companions.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I wonder, also, if the Doctor's "death" (I assume I should be putting "death" in quotes!) in The Impossible Astronaut is his attempt to make the universe at large believe he's dead and, as it were, reset his reputation to zero?
Nice theory. However, if he were arranging his death in that fashion I'd assume he'd have it witnessed by more than three / four trusted companions.
If he's that (in)famous, I'd expect word to get around. And The Silence were watching as well, remember? But I think he wanted those people there for a particular reason, and the reason was presumably to make something happen/not happen. (Actually, does the fact that he thought Amy had been replaced before America have any bearing on this, or is it just coincidence?)
But having said that, I'm also wondering whether this series is building up to some sort of reboot, where the Doctor can stop being an Intergalactic Superstar and get back to pottering around and having crazy adventures - more like Doctor Who ought to be, as discussed above. Not sure how it would work, but it feels plausible, and Moffat's certainly not shy of recreating the universe/rewriting history (there's that theme again) the way he thinks it should be.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
I wonder if Moffat's going to try to play with the idea that rewriting history is actually difficult, and that's why a war against the Doctor involves quite a bit more than just shooting him in the head until he runs out of regenerations. If he's already famous throughout space and time, then killing him directly could do anything from rebooting the universe to having the Reapers eat everything again, unless you had your own Time Lord to do it according to protocol.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
Re: the motivation of the church 'baddies'. They are quite clearly the Church Militant and go about serving God as ordered. But what if they encounter tales of someone else so powerful that he could be a god: a man able to alter time itself, even to live outside time in some way: a man who clearly wasn't the God they believed in.
Wouldn't it then be not only important but necessary to try to rid the universe of this man? 'Good man' or not, they would want him out of the way, by whatever means necessary (as long as they were approved by the Papal mainframe herself - does that mean the future is Anglo-Papalist?)
Only question is that, if River Song is kidnapped by the Anglican Army in order to kill the Doctor, why is she then locked up by them for 'killing a good man'? (It was the Clerics who released her - and took her back - in the last series)
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Changing the subject a bit, I've been wondering why River couldn't go and help Rory etc. until the very end. I suppose it was so she didn't meet herself-as-Melody (or at least pretend-Melody), which you can't do without exploding the universe (except when it's necessary for the plot, of course).
OK, so it's taken me a long while to get there.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Changing the subject a bit, I've been wondering why River couldn't go and help Rory etc. until the very end. I suppose it was so she didn't meet herself-as-Melody (or at least pretend-Melody), which you can't do without exploding the universe (except when it's necessary for the plot, of course).
Moffat doesn't seem to worry about that, as seen by old & young miser interacting in the Christmas show and Amy and Amelia interacting during the whole Pandorica thing.
...Unless Amy was already substituted by then! Maybe they snatched her from the Pandorica during the couple-thousand years she was in there, and subbed Flesh Amy. Flesh Amy could then pat Amelia to her heart's content, which the Doctor would notice as odd and be suspicious that she had been switched! After which, he quietly let Flesh Amy marry Rory without any concern and...no, no, there are too many holes in that theory.
We are probably way overthinking this. With all the bits about River killing a good man, we are meant to think she was in the spacesuit and the Doctor was killed, but the "surprise" will be that she kills some other good man (of which Rory is the only current candidate) and the spacesuit person will turn out to be somebody quite different, like the Doctor himself. Then it will turn out that Spacesuit Doctor is the one that arranged for his little group to all gather there and it was a Flesh Doctor who was killed after spending two centuries acting as a distraction for others while the real Doctor secretly worked on some bogus way to erase knowledge of his existence from the Universe, which is why many (such as the tree lady back in Season 1 of the new series) view him as a legend only.
Plotting is easy if you don't care about making sense. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
Some good stuff here.
What no-one seems to have mentioned yet is that at some point (presumably series finale) the tardis has to explode. The last series ended with the enigmatic implication that this would be delved into further... that has to fit somewhere.
Those that fear the doctor don't have to be good to see him as bad. They can be just as bad as they think he is, just want to defeat him.
I Did enjoy the episode very much. One lingering fear that it won't all hang together in the end, but I think it will...
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
What no-one seems to have mentioned yet is that at some point (presumably series finale) the tardis has to explode. The last series ended with the enigmatic implication that this would be delved into further... that has to fit somewhere.
Er... the TARDIS did explode at the end of The Pandorica Opens. They sorted that out. The question is who exactly it was who made the TARDIS explode. What did the Silence have to do with it? How was it done? Were the Silence involved for their own reasons, or were they working for someone else? What is the connection between them and the lady with the eyepatch? And what happens when the Silence fall?
[ 07. June 2011, 21:41: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
Only question is that, if River Song is kidnapped by the Anglican Army in order to kill the Doctor, why is she then locked up by them for 'killing a good man'? (It was the Clerics who released her - and took her back - in the last series)
Hang on a minute, I thought that Rory was the 'good man'. He certainly went to war (all costumed up and everything ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) ) and the Doctor made it very clear that he wasn't a good man with his line about good men not needing rules and him having so many.
No...River is totally not allowed to kill her own dad. I won't let her! Rory is the best person in the current series and has been killed enough.
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
*News just in*
It's on the BBC website that the next series has been commissioned, and Matt Smith will be in it. They're saying fourteen episodes, so that's presumably a Christmas special plus a season of thirteen in 2012. No news yet as to whether that season will be spring, autumn, or split.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
Yay! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Arthur Darvill - Rory - is spending the summer at the Globe, playing Mephistopheles in Marlowe's Doctor Faustus, which we're seeing in July. He can't get away from a Doctor...
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Glad I'm not the only one to think of Arthur Darvill as best actor in the series (so far).
Other awards, Marshall Lancaster as Buzzer in the Flesh stories for commanding screen presence, he was noticeable even when he had no dialogue.
Best comedic performance award goes to the Sontaran nurse.
And the Alex Kingston award for being Alex Kingston goes to Alex Kingston. (I'm a fan,can't you tell?)
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
Other awards, Marshall Lancaster as Buzzer in the Flesh stories for commanding screen presence, he was noticeable even when he had no dialogue.
Erm. YMMV: I had no idea he was in it until I saw the credits.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
Wouldn't it then be not only important but necessary to try to rid the universe of this man? 'Good man' or not, they would want him out of the way, by whatever means necessary (as long as they were approved by the Papal mainframe herself - does that mean the future is Anglo-Papalist?)
Yes, that's interesting. I was wondering about the Fat-Thin-Gay-Married-Anglicans being in an army under the command of the Papal Mainframe. The fact that they were Anglican seemed to be distinctive from the context, though. Does that mean the head-donation thing was because they didn't fit in some way? Of course, it could just be lazy writing, but this army seemed to have different badges from the ones in the Forest last series. Is that deliberate? I also feel sure that we'll meet Lorna Bucket again in her past in the Doctor's future. There was too much attention on her character for her just to be discarded in a single episode. But will the Doctor tell her to run, or will he do something else and rewrite history?
Hedgehog, I think it's fair to say that Moffat loves misleading us, so on reflection, I agree that it probably won't be River in the spacesuit because that would be Too Obvious. The trouble is coming up with a satisfying alternative. I like the idea of the Doctor being in there, but I have a nasty feeling that there's going to be a bit more Flesh before the end of the series. I'm still not entirely ruling out the possibility that the Dead Doctor was a more advanced form of the Flesh (which he knew was a very early stage of the technology in the Monastery), but it would have to be done very well to avoid looking like a cop-out.
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Those that fear the doctor don't have to be good to see him as bad. They can be just as bad as they think he is, just want to defeat him
Quite so. But nor do they have to be entirely evil to oppose him. At the very least, I suspect there are going to be lots of shades of grey involved.
Incidentally, has anyone looked at the front page of the Doctor Who site recently? (Possible spoiler) One of these people is not like the others, One of these people just doesn't belong. Some more curious things in there if you look. Does this mean something, or does the Moff's red herring factory extend to the website?
(I can't believe I'm this interested after an episode that was so disappointing. Looks like I'm hooked.)
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Hedgehog, I think it's fair to say that Moffat loves misleading us, so on reflection, I agree that it probably won't be River in the spacesuit because that would be Too Obvious.
I'm not sure he does love misleading people. I mean, you could probably hear the shout of 'I knew it' from the UK in outer space when River Song was revealed to be Amy's baby. Someone told him that their eight-year old got it, and Moffat responded that eight-year olds were meant to get it. He's included a few red herrings or incidental details that people have built theories around, but usually the right theory has turned out to be something obvious (and if anything less imaginative than some of the fan theories).
quote:
Incidentally, has anyone looked at the front page of the Doctor Who site recently? One of these people is not like the others, One of these people just doesn't belong.
You mean the Doctor, Amy, Rory, and... Jenny? I was just about to post that.
Yes, it needs explaining. Why Jenny and not Vashta for example. Perhaps the website designer got confused by the Cast List Red Herring and thought it was Jenny, 'the Doctor's daughter' back. Or perhaps it means Jenny actually is the Doctor's daughter back.
quote:
Some more curious things in there if you look. Does this mean something, or does the Moff's red herring factory extend to the website?
Ooh.. such as? I haven't noticed anything else...
[ 08. June 2011, 15:06: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Hedgehog, I think it's fair to say that Moffat loves misleading us, so on reflection, I agree that it probably won't be River in the spacesuit because that would be Too Obvious.
I'm not sure he does love misleading people. I mean, you could probably hear the shout of 'I knew it' from the UK in outer space when River Song was revealed to be Amy's baby.
True, but on the other hand, he's spent the whole series trying to make you think that Amy's got a crush on the Doctor / Amy shagged the Doctor / the baby's the Doctor's. I'm sure there are other examples I can't remember just now.
quote:
quote:
Incidentally, has anyone looked at the front page of the Doctor Who site recently? One of these people is not like the others, One of these people just doesn't belong.
You mean the Doctor, Amy, Rory, and... Jenny? I was just about to post that. Yes, it needs explaining. Why Jenny and not Vashta for example. Perhaps the website designer got confused by the Cast List Red Herring and thought it was Jenny, 'the Doctor's daughter' back. Or perhaps it means Jenny actually is the Doctor's daughter back.
She's the second "Jenny" we've had this series, not counting the Gangers. That in itself is unusual. Of course, she's not Georgia Moffett (shame!), but if she is the Doctor's daughter, albeit by unorthodox means, would that mean she can regenerate? At the very least, it appears that she's going to stick around for a while.
quote:
quote:
Some more curious things in there if you look. Does this mean something, or does the Moff's red herring factory extend to the website?
Ooh.. such as? I haven't noticed anything else...
Have a look at the Doctor's profile. I'm pretty sure that used to be more informative.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Have a look at the Doctor's profile. I'm pretty sure that used to be more informative.
I can't remember the earlier version to compare it to, but giving the answers to Planet of Origin and First Appearance as Unknown is indeed an eyebrow-raiser. That would certainly count in favour of the possibility of more than one Doctor in existence.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
I think there was a line or two about how the Anglican Marines didn't usually work with the Headless Monks - it was just for this special occasion.
(Totally unrelated - I just got a UNIT cap badge to sew onto my beret. I am Very Happy).
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
Joining in the Arthur Darvill appreciation. There was a lovely moment when the Doctor reveals the cradle was his - he blurted out "It's mine" and you could practically see the thought cross Rory's mind that he was talking about the baby.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
Joining in the Arthur Darvill appreciation. There was a lovely moment when the Doctor reveals the cradle was his - he blurted out "It's mine" and you could practically see the thought cross Rory's mind that he was talking about the baby.
Yes, one of many moments thrown in to send you briefly down the wrong track, and it was very well done. The significant details and clues, though, have generally been hidden in plain sight in apparently inconsequential dialogue, such as "Time head" and "My old man". More on that in a moment.
I rewatched AGMGTW last night, and it was much better without heightened expectations. It still didn't make much sense as a plot, and seemed to have been thrown together to include lots of things that will be Important in the rest of the series, with a big reveal at the end to paper over the cracks where they joined up, but it was fun enough, and the lack of coherence might be the price we pay for a thrilling second half.
On second viewing, several things leapt out at me as possibly significant. Make of them what you will. When he goes to fetch River, Rory says she's been with the Doctor from a different time, "unless there's more than one". Quickly glossed over with the "whole other birthday" line, but a very strange thing to say. Also, when Rory was rescuing Amy, a sonic screwdriver could be heard outside the door, but only Rory came in, and the Doctor didn't appear until some time later. Both of these could support the Two Doctors Theory.
Madame K, speaking to the Doctor after her escape, said the baby gave them "hope", a sentiment you wouldn't normally associate with a cartoon villain caricature. Admittedly, the hope was of destroying the Doctor, but it still suggests to me that they're not the pure evil they're being portrayed as.
Part of the poem was "Friendship dies and true love lies when a good man goes to war". I don't think we've clearly seen that yet, but I wouldn't completely trust anything that was said towards the end of the episode. Finally, there's definitely a theme of a healer-warrior. The Doctor is seen as a warrior, Rory the Nurse is becoming one, and the Sontaran was bizarrely and amusingly a nurse, albeit one who defined his existence by the defeat he would eventually inflict on his patients in battle. No idea what that means, though.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Jenny (Dr's daughter) did regenerate at the end of her episode, didn't she?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
In rather sadder news, Roy Skelton died yesterday, aged 79. He was principally a voice artist, and "appeared" in seventeen Doctor Who stories, most often as a Dalek voice. But he was also the first Cybermen voice - that weird, sing-song voice they had in The Tenth Planet - the voice of the Krotons, and also had a couple of on-screen acting credits (his Marshal Chedaki in The Android Invasion was, IMO, one of the best things about that rather dull story).
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
In noticed the proliferation of Jennies - but then, in real life, you do get clusters of people with the same name, and Moffat could just have been playing with random, for a joke.
Or, of course, not.
My name does not occur as frequently as Jennifer, but there were three of us in a class of about 14 when I was 7!
Red herring production - presumably the listing of Sydney's parts as the little girl and the named part was one.
Penny
[ 09. June 2011, 10:21: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Jenny (Dr's daughter) did regenerate at the end of her episode, didn't she?
If I remember correctly she didn't regenerate as such (no change in appearance) but recovered because her second heart kicked in. I may be wrong.
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
]If I remember correctly she didn't regenerate as such (no change in appearance) but recovered because her second heart kicked in. I may be wrong.
She didn't change appearance. I can't remember how the episode handwaved it.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
What episodes are running now? Anything anywhere? What are we supposed to watch on Saturday evenings...
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
What episodes are running now? Anything anywhere? What are we supposed to watch on Saturday evenings...
Seems to be nothing, no Dr, no sherlock, no Merlin, no nothing.
I did get prepared but Battlefield got watched on Thursday.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Not entirely no Merlin, there's Camelot starting on Channel 4, with Joseph Fiennes as Merlin. No idea how good this will be though.
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
Jenny was within 24 hours of her creation when she died, so was able to regenerate in the same body - rather like David Tennant was able to regrow a hand rather quickly when fighting the Sycorax at the beginning of his regeneration. There was definitely the golden breath thing when she woke up.
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
Finally seen the last episode. A few thoughts. Firstly, I don't see how Rory can be the 'good man' that River is supposed to have killed. Surely he would not be important enough for the Anglican army to care about; certainly not enough to lock River in the Storm Cage for however many years. Unless, of course, he subsequently does something that makes him important to them, but I can't see that happening.
Secondly, nothing said implied that the Headless Monks were Christian, for those concerned about Moffatt's anti-church bias. They seemed to be just a stock-standard horror villain, it seems to me. I was much more interested in the Anglican general, tbh. A much more interesting and complex character.
Loved the Sontaran nurse, though.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I'd like to know how the Headless Monks managed their battle chant. Or indeed how they were powered at all. Proper science fiction would have an explanation for the force driving them.
In Moffat's confidential, there was a definite implication that the headlessness was the logical end of religion and that the religion he had in mind was the one he knew best.
The Dean of King's College London has on the wall of his office a small poster reading "Jesus came to take away your sins, not your brain". The existence of this poster suggests that there are those within Christianity have noted the same tendency that Moffat has.
Penny
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
Fair enough, Penny - We only get about 10 minutes of Confidential, and this one contained no interview with Moffat, so I was just going on the episode itself. I still rather like the Colonel (I think his rank was), as he came across as rather more interesting - his immediate response to the disappearing doctor was to tell people not to shoot, which I thought was interesting.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I thought the not shooting was mostly because of a) the lighting, and b) the chance of shooting the actual Headless Monks, who were their allies, and hosts on the asteroid. Or, indeed, each other.
Like the end of Blake's Seven, with the circular firing squad.
That he needed to tell his people not to fire in a confusing situation, now that was interesting, and suggests a lack of training.
Penny
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I thought the not shooting was mostly because of a) the lighting, and b) the chance of shooting the actual Headless Monks, who were their allies, and hosts on the asteroid. Or, indeed, each other.
Like the end of Blake's Seven, with the circular firing squad.
That he needed to tell his people not to fire in a confusing situation, now that was interesting, and suggests a lack of training.
Penny
Didn't the soldiers shoot the wrong monk before that?
I got the distinct impression that the monks and soldiers were one shot/strike away from forgetting their enemy and slaughtering each other.
I am tempted to wonder if that was a deliberate commentary on religouslike behaviour.
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I'd like to know how the Headless Monks managed their battle chant.
The "attack prayer"! I think we could do with that at ours.
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Not entirely no Merlin, there's Camelot starting on Channel 4, with Joseph Fiennes as Merlin. No idea how good this will be though.
Unlike the programmes mentioned, Camelot is definitely NOT family viewing. But it could be, the gratuitous nudity, gore and swearing detracted from the story.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Thanks for that review, Balaam. I had read something in another place which had given me the idea that removing it from the hard drive unwatched might be a good idea. You've confirmed that into a decision.
Penny
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
It was quite an interesting version and worth watching for a Morgan who steals the show - charismatic, ruthless, beautiful; Joseph Fiennes plays an intriguingly enigmatic and manipulative Merlin; and Arthur is lacking in self-confidence and comes across as quite a ditherer. It's an interesting take on a familiar story.
Having said that I felt two episodes were simply too long. I lost interest at the end of the first, so am not sure what happened after that. I don't remember a lot of swearing, other than Lot saying "**** it" and walking out of Camelot in disgust.
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