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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Doctor Who: Silence will fall - the Doctor Who thread returns
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
The two Amys were certainly causing the poor old Tardis to have a fit. However, since she can cope with several incarnations of the Doctor at the same time I'm wondering why Amy caused her so much trouble.
Because the TARDIS has taste?
But, yes, New Who seems to have no consistency on whether past and future versions meeting causes any problem. Old miser and young miser-to-be met in the Christmas episode with no problem. Amy and Amelia met during last season's finale with no problem. And Amy and Cranky Amy were interacting just fine in the recent episode until they tried to get into the TARDIS. And then, suddenly, there is a problem.
But consistency has never been listed as a major strong point for Doctor Who, Classic or New.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Chelley
Ship's Old Boot
# 11322
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Posted
And on the note of consistency, if I can go back to the 'Hitler' one when River Song appears...
How is it that she can be shot while regenerating and not only be fine but seem to take strength; whereas when the Doctor is 'shot' while regenerating it kills him? (Which is reiterated at the time - if you're killed while regenerating, then you're killed/dead).
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"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"
Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who
Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
I seem to remember the Dr being pretty clear that Rose should not touch the infant version of herself..."Father's Day" episode I think. Guess it's cause Rose is so special.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
16 minutes to Torchwood - and I think anyone whose private parts looked like that red edifice should be consulting the Embarrassing Bodies medics.
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Well thats over. And I was still unimpressed.
I only watched this series because the premise seemed like a good idea, and I was interested in what they would do with it.
The money they have for this series, the actors are good, but they seem unable to produce anything decent out of it all. Which is a pity.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
The two Amys were certainly causing the poor old Tardis to have a fit. However, since she can cope with several incarnations of the Doctor at the same time I'm wondering why Amy caused her so much trouble.
Because the TARDIS has taste?
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Missed a trick with the South Atlantic Magnetic Anomaly, which is in roughly the right place. But then the sense of geology was just not there, nor the sense of how big the world really is. Or the effect of plate tectonics, the extension of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, and all the interesting stuff going on down in the core and the lower mantle. What they described might perhaps work on Vesta or Ceres, but Earth?
Used the same sort of trick as the nanites with the wartime situation where Jack turned up, trying to find a master template for humanity - but if it was copying Jack, why not copy the healing process?
I do hope they don't make the next series they are hinting at - things get boring when the villains repeat. Though I would like to know exactly how the families a) took over everything in advance and prepared the death camps, b) persuaded the useful idiots to go along with them and be suicide bombers (they couldn't promise paradise). If they could take over the governments so successfully in advance, how come they needed to go through the magic bit? If they could fund all those drugs in advance, why did they need to control the banks? And how could they be certain that the Blessing would work the way it did without testing? This was a very holey plot, and worse than Dr Who things where everything is explained in a very fast gabble in the last five minutes. So much was not explained.
Contradiction with Jack saying the immortality was not in his blood, and then Rex coming back.
I did not like the setting of "The day Thou gavest" and was interested that Rhys and Gwen seemed to pick it up so quickly - I would have had problems with the different note lengths.
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
Watched with subtitles on as late and keeping noise down. Day thou gavest had 'as our mourning hymns ascended' instead of morning!!
As for plot - what plot.
And nicely set up for an American being key immortal alongside the Brit so option to phase out orginalk characters if they want to later?
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
So, Torchwood finally stumbles to a merciful end tonight. Will it be satisfying? Will it explain anything at all? Will it turn out that "The Blessing", aka Enormous Planetary Vagina, just wants Jack to shag it?
And will Torchwood ever recover from the trainwreck that was Miracle Day?
What a waste of ten hours of my life! And it started out so well ..
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chelley:
And on the note of consistency, if I can go back to the 'Hitler' one when River Song appears...
How is it that she can be shot while regenerating and not only be fine but seem to take strength; whereas when the Doctor is 'shot' while regenerating it kills him? (Which is reiterated at the time - if you're killed while regenerating, then you're killed/dead).
That one's fair enough, I think, although it's all based on a classic RTD Made-Up-On-The-Fly Doctrine. When Doctor 9 turned into 10, he was also able (for ludicrous plot reasons) to regrow a hand shortly after regenerating. It was explained at that point that after regenerating (River had clearly finished long before) there's some sort of residual power left in the body for a while (16 hours springs to mind). That's not the same as killing them in mid-regeneration. I don't like it, though, and I wish Moffat had studiously ignored that particular addition to Canon, rather than gratuitously writing that scene because it seemed cool.
As for Torchwood, well, what can you say? The concept was interesting, but beyond that the detail, the plot, the characterisation, the pacing and probably some other things I can't think of right now were all wrong. How can one show lurch from promising (early series) to really quite good (CoE) to this unspeakable waste of airtime?
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I forgot to add that the recruiting suit made me think about a cult. I won't suggest any one in particular.
Since last night, I have been catching up on political opinion pieces in the Guardian, and it has occurred to me that the reason the ostensible plot was so dire was that it wasn't the plot. Carrying over the ideas from the woman who initiated Kitzinger and Kitzinger herself, I couldn't place the articles totally in real life. Polly Toynbee on banks: Children hit by banks
George Monbiot on think tanks: Think tanks unnaccountability
Stuart Hall on the neo-liberals: Neo-liberal hegemony
These suggest a world like the one in Torchwood, in which a few self selected people can choose how the rest of us live and die, and intend to change the world so that it can never be changed back. Could Davies have been trying to sneak his politics under the radar by heavily disguising it behind the glitz of a weak SF series? SF was, back in the 50s and 60s, best when it had political roots - I have to admit that I didn't always know what it was on about, because I did not know about the abuses it was exposing. Destructive mining, exploitation of workers and other races - they weren't relevant to me. I'm not sure that the Tea-Party members will have been watching to see the sort of people they support running the death selection committees, though.
And I would have liked to see how people in the various parts of the world would have dealt with the officials who were so assiduous in enforcing the law of sending the living to be burned. And how the existence of the Families would have been exposed. Too many loose ends.
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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GeordieDownSouth
Shipmate
# 4100
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Posted
On the why are different people from different times ok/not ok are they making this up as they go along thing, is it that with the Two Amy's* and two Roses time had already been mucked up by someone other than the doctor? So there were two realities co-existing. So the miser in the Sharky Christmas episode is ok because the Dr fetched him in the Tardis, so it could cope.
Maybe the Tardis has strong opinions about who is allowed to muck around with reality.
Or maybe they're making it up as they go along.
*Amys? Amies? Amyes? Could a grammar pedant help me out?
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No longer down south.
Posts: 689 | From: Birmingham | Registered: Feb 2003
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Could Davies have been trying to sneak his politics under the radar by heavily disguising it behind the glitz of a weak SF series?
Almost certainly. The problem is that Davies' politics are hardly more sophisticated than 'they're all the same and you can't trust any of them'.
Compare Malcolm Hulke's Silurians. That was a thinly veiled allegory for the Cold War, (it could equally have been an allegory for a lot of other things). It was grounded in an at least plausible sense of how people work, and it didn't succumb to the pleasures of self-righteousness. (The Brigadier isn't made out to be a villain.)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Oh boy, this is not terribly keen on a certain style of religion, is it? "Praise Him"? Terrible loss of faith by the Rapture. Feeding on faith. A representation of a Boschian Satanic demon. (Who turns out to be as much a victim as the others.)
Penny
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
So, the ending - does it take us back to before the Impossible Astronaut? Is it the house they were living in then? At the time, I'd thought it was quite a fancy house for Amy and Rory.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Well I thought that was excellent. I love the surreal stuff, and the recollection of "The Island of Dreams" from Voyage of the Dawntreader.
The ending part was clearly part of the larger story arc. There was something very wrong about the way that Amy was so casual over her River Song. I think it is to get Amy and Rory out of the picture for a while.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Rock Pig
Shipmate
# 14503
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Posted
44 minutes of gratuitious anti-Christian brainwashing followed by a token remark at the end linking it to the story arc. Felt cheated and insulted all at once. It's not a certain style of religion that was being got at, it was using language that everyone "knows" "we" use. And the fact that one person was positively identified as of a recognised religion (Islam) and then seen succumbing to the nasty system characterised bu "Christian" language just rubs it in. Nasty nasty nasty stuff.
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If the neighbours ain't complainin', you ain't playin' it loud enough.
Posts: 148 | From: Old York | Registered: Jan 2009
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I thought it was a superficial use of the language, and I know people who would feel deeply unhappy meeting people using it, because it has been used to victimise them, and drive them from Christianity. I would not be in the least bit surprised to find the writer had met people who patronised him and hid behind their "faith" to do so. Yes, it was nasty - partly why I posted while it was actually running, but I don't think it was more anti-Christian than anti that sort of person, who can probably be found in many walks of life, though the church gives them a particularly nasty channel to do harm. The writer did not use any of the deeper concepts of Christianity as markers of villainy.
I should imagine that the terms "Praise Him" and "worship", or their equivalent in other languages are common to any religion.
I'm wondering where the prison guards are, and what they are going to do next. They are much nastier than the Beast, aren't they? Interfering with the minds of people so they become bait. Vigilantes seem to be a common theme in the arc - the mini-police in the Hitler episode, and the Silence as well as this invisible lot.
Something of a reference to Star Trek and the holodeck episodes, wasn't there?
Penny
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
Having seen the TV tropes page on the French/Italian reputation yesterday the alien's portrayal felt very mean spirited.
The similarity to the Champes Elyses joke was beyond coincidence.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Roseofsharon
Shipmate
# 9657
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
Having seen the TV tropes page on the French/Italian reputation yesterday the alien's portrayal felt very mean spirited.
The similarity to the Champes Elyses joke was beyond coincidence.
What the ...?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Talk about books -any books- on our rejuvenatedforum http://www.bookgrouponline.com/index.php?
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
I assume that's a reference to having tree-lined avenues for the invaders to march down.
Personally I rather enjoyed it.
Obviously Rory and Amy will be back, everything's building to a climax where we see the first episode from the other Doctor's pov.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
Wilson is right.
In all fairness i probably was in the mood to be over sensitive (Especially if on anothers behalf).
But that line (as i said seeing it so close together, and having in my head a space invasion) did seem to make it shift from these aliens are like the cheese eating stereotype to the French are like this.
I suppose it would be like having an alien race go to war for dodgy reasons that make Iraq look innocent and then having them say 'mission accomplished'.
Hmm or maybe its just late.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
It's totally the Overlook Hotel!
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
This was very satisfying to me, and here's why-- I don't think it is a slap at religion in general at all- I think it is just about the Doctor.
Something that was beginning to disturb me about Tennant- Doctor was the way various characters would moonily refer to him as the most important person in the Universe, and how a couple of times he was invoked in fairly religious ways.. Something that was bugging me about Smith--Doctor was how he would just point at the bad guys and sniff "Fear me." I think swinging that pendulum back from the Doctor's omnipotence was very important-- and this episode does it quite roughly.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(Also-- regarding next weeks teaser: Squeee!)
(also-- By "roughly" I think I meant "vigorously.")
[ 18. September 2011, 05:01: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Miss Madrigal
Shipmate
# 15528
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Posted
I thought it interesting that the Minotaur-esque villain could only feed upon a subverted, corrupted faith. If there was a criticism of faith, it was of its abuse rather than faith per se.
That felt like proper Dr. Who: surreal, thought provoking and slightly disturbing - just where it should be. I'd like to have been at the creative meeting that cross-fertilised Fawlty Towers with The Overlook Hotel.
Posts: 79 | From: The Bit In The Middle | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
The little nods to sci-fi canon please me-- the carpet and hall paint were dead on for the Overlook (as well as the closed circuit TV of the Ballroom), and I am still convinced that for the wooden dolly episode, someone got ahold of the incidental music score for "Twilight Zone." Also dead on.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
You see I was thinking Hotel California. Ah well.
I think the references to faith were about a blind faith - it was The Doctor who was described as having a God Complex. I think it was really a knock to faith in a person who does not deserve it - the Doctor.
In truth, I think the Muslim Girl's faith was given a lot of credit, as it was what kept her and supported her in a difficult time. It was only when that true faith was compromised that it caused her problems.
Butthat is just my take on it.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Rock Pig
Shipmate
# 14503
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Posted
I'd agree that maybe there is an opportunity to slap the Doctor's recent messianic portrayal/ tendencies down a bit,and I would wlecome that.
IMO the whole thing was brilliantly written, photographed, acted and edited. Rita and Howie in particular are characters I'd happily see again.
I don't use the episode's brand of religious vocab in my worship or other dealings. It's just not me. But I know perfectly decent ordinary Christian folk who would and do. The writer would have known the generalised associations that the (mostly non-Christian) audience would make. And the director would have known how powerfully the use and repetition of sounds and images can plant or reinforce ideas.
It's how advertising works, and why some films make you cry. They cannot have not known what stereotype they were putting into people's heads. thiswas far more sophisticated than the headless monks, for example.
Posts: 148 | From: Old York | Registered: Jan 2009
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
I think there's a logic error here.
Boil it down you have a monster[*] that feeds off faith. Does that mean that having faith is bad? If you had a story with a vampire - a monster that feeds off blood - would that mean having blood is a bad thing?
No. Of course it's done deliberately so they can tell a particular story about faith - Amy's faith in the Doctor - because for on-going plot reasons they want to separate them right now, but that's hugely different from saying faith is bad. They're certainly not saying all faith is bad, they deliberately show a range of different kinds of faiths - some faith is sincere but unhelpful (Amy's), some misguided (conspiracy guy), some cowardly (alien) and some very positive (Muslim nurse).
ISTM we're in danger of doing the Job's comforters thing - a bad thing happened therefore you must have done something to deserve it. In storytelling you make the characters suffer even when, especially when, they don't deserve it, because it makes better stories and more interesting characters.
[*]Yes I know that they played the "monster" as sad, misunderstood creature simply following its instinct - a very Who approach - but it's still the "bad guy" for all practical purposes.
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sophs
Sardonic Angel
# 2296
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Posted
It was very Curse of Fenric. I didn't think that the Doctor's 'causing Amy to loose faith in him' was anywhere near harsh enough to actually cause Amy to loose faith in him, but when Sylvester McCoy did it to Ace it was very harsh!
I think I'd have written it so that the Doctor told Amy how it was his fault she didn't raise her child, that Melody was taken from her...
Also, I'd create a support group for companions of the Doctor who have been dumped.
Posts: 5407 | From: searching saharas of sorrow | Registered: Feb 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Well I thought it was deep and well written, Not anti faith at all. Anti ill thought out, childish, “make a wish” faith maybe. Anti religious maybe, but sometimes religion should be kicked against. Not sure what if was “for.” But on the whole very thought provoking. Continue to love the series. And the demythologising of the Doctor was well done. Mad old man in a box. The saving of Amy before she dies was important too.
Of course the irony of the “anti-faith” argument is that he did save them but only by killing part of himself. All a bit humble/emptying/ Easter-like. Excellent stuff, good jokes, great script, great acting.
All the best, Pyx_e.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
So that was the real low-budget episode of this season.
My least favourite of the second half so far, though still worth watching. And very much traditional Dr Who. Right down to every set been the same the same two rooms and corridor and staircase seen from different angles, the tedious chases in which the monster runs about as fast as an grumpy old man with gout, and the sudden cuts to different parts of the maze with characters unexpectedly missing. That could have been a Troughton episode.
quote:
Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:
On the why are different people from different times ok/not ok are they making this up as they go along...
Of course they are making it up as they go along. They have been making it up as they go along since 1963. This is Doctor Who not Star Drek.
quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
Obviously Rory and Amy will be back, everything's building to a climax where we see the first episode from the other Doctor's pov.
Yes, obviously. We've not heard the last of them. If only because their daughter's story is still to be wound up.
Also the Iron Laws of Plot demand some reference to what happened at the end of the story with the robots. You can't have a highly emotional scene where a man kills his wife on stage - or at least consciously and deliberately leaves her to die - without some sort of future effect on the story. Even if - particularly if - he is thereby trading her in for a younger prettier version who is crashed out on the couch behind him.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I'm afraid I didn't like it at all. I can see it was good - all the ingredients of acting, script, and directing were there - but somehow I just couldn't engage with it. I think one of the problems was that it's very difficult to do the "meet your worst dreams" scenario effectively pre-watershed. Toby Whithouse's writing strengths, judging from Being Human, are very definitely post-watershed, and I just think this didn't work. Ten minutes in, I was glancing at my watch. Sorry.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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dorothea
Goodwife and low church mystic
# 4398
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Posted
Very trad: monsters, dummies, chases. Not much to add really. My husband enjoyed it. He watched it all they way through with none of his usual snide remarks about K.G's two dimensional acting.
What a very pleasant street for Amy and Rory to live and, presumably, bring up their less spectacular kids.
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Protestant head? Catholic Heart?
http://joansbitsandpieces.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1581 | From: Notlob City Limits | Registered: Apr 2003
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I think you can do worst fears pre-watershed, because children's worst fears are not adults'. My nieces were, when very young, variously terrified by the end of a banana (look at one - it's a little distorted face) and one of those shiny helium balloons in the days when they were not printed with stuff. Look at what they really look like - distortions of reality again.
My childish repeated nightmare was a scene of smooth terrain, like pancake batter, on which appeared a hedge drawn in a scribble, which ran across in front of me, and then turned to have two sides of the field running down to where there was not (couldn't see, but knew) a fourth side. Three heads appeared over the hedge in front, and then started to move along, turn down and move to where they would go out of sight and GET IN THE FIELD WITH ME. Except that this simple thing terrified me so much that I always woke up.
Remember George's terrors in the wardrobe? Winston Smith's rats? The giant scissors in the Voyage of the Dawn Treader? Children understand about different terrors than we do, and don't need horror film stuff. And I suspect that most of us have those sort of terrors, which are simple and might not worry others, or make good TV, but really scare us.
And I now wish I had not written that dream down, because although it has not occurred for over 50 years, and I have thought about it with no ill effects on a number of occasions, I have segued from it to the one where the car brakes won't work, and suspect I will have nightmares tonight, from the feel in my stomach.
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think the references to faith were about a blind faith - it was The Doctor who was described as having a God Complex. I think it was really a knock to faith in a person who does not deserve it - the Doctor.
Bingo.
I gotta admit, I was getting so tired of the Doctor's encroaching hubris that I was actually daydreaming fanfic about him discovering a race superior to the Timelords that ran a sort of "Scared Straight" program for beings that stole TARDIS 's and went on joyrides.
Moffat, if you steal it, you owe me.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
[*]Yes I know that they played the "monster" as sad, misunderstood creature simply following its instinct - a very Who approach - but it's still the "bad guy" for all practical purposes.
But if we take it as an allegory against blind faith-- excellent post as always, Pyx_e-- then this fits well-- what was Jim Jones, for instance, but a damaged, diseased monster reduced to feeding on other people's chi for his own subsistance?
Sorry, been extraordinarily ill lately, feel like I am jumping logic steps.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Probably just a software thing, but the holographic hotel undid itself in the same way as the tesselator shapeshifting vigilantebot did.
Penny
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dorothea:
My husband enjoyed it. He watched it all they way through with none of his usual snide remarks about K.G's two dimensional acting.
She actually tiptoes up to subtlety in this one. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
[*]Yes I know that they played the "monster" as sad, misunderstood creature simply following its instinct - a very Who approach - but it's still the "bad guy" for all practical purposes.
But if we take it as an allegory against blind faith-- excellent post as always, Pyx_e-- then this fits well-- what was Jim Jones, for instance, but a damaged, diseased monster reduced to feeding on other people's chi for his own subsistance?
Yes that fits and I don't have a problem with that interpretation.
My point really was that who the victim is - here people with faith - isn't necessarily a good guide to who the author dislikes.
I think too many people - not you - take their definition of fiction un-ironically from The Importance of Being Earnest, without realising Wilde was joking:
quote:
“The good ended happily, and the bad unhappily. That is what Fiction means.”
On a completely separate topic I happened to want to look up the episode list for this season so I went to IMDB and they've got the titles and cast list up for the next two episodes. Intriguing! Don't look if you don't want any spoilers whatsoever.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I think one of the problems was that it's very difficult to do the "meet your worst dreams" scenario effectively pre-watershed.
I don't think it was actually meet your worst dreams. Amy's worst dream would be to come across Rory really permanently dead. It's meet whatever experience most makes you fall back on your faith. That's why Amy's room just contained her waiting for the Doctor - not because that's particularly scary, but because that would make her think 'no, he didn't desert me and he never will'.
That said, I don't think it's consistent with the way Karen Gillan's played the character, or the character's been written: Amy's not ever been someone who has unquestioning faith in the Doctor, at least not since she hit him round the head with a cricket bat and handcuffed him to the radiator.
For that matter, Rory's remark that he couldn't help thinking Rita was doomed when he saw the Doctor befriending her was much more Tennant era than Smith era. Eleven has pretty much always saved the people he's actually got close to. Ten failed all the time.
According to the internal logic of the story the Doctor must have faith in something, because there was a room in the hotel for him. (Unlike Rory.) We know from Curse of Fenric that the Doctor's faith is in his companions.
It adds an extra poignancy to his dispelling the faith of Ace or Amy in him to realise he still has faith in them.
Speculation about the contents of the Doctor's room: according to the above logic, it contains whatever fear would make him most trust in his companions. So the logic is that it contains Ten in his mad god phase or similar.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
My point really was that who the victim is - here people with faith - isn't necessarily a good guide to who the author dislikes.
Oh, absolutely. In fact I think it was very clear that the author wanted us to like and respect Rita, and to respect those aspects of her faith that were not "Praise Him" based.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
Whatever it was, the Cloister Bell was tolling....
I thought it was good. A pity Rita didn't make it to be a Companion - but then the Doctor needs to be alone for a while now.
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
So is the Curse of Fenric worth watching?
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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sophs
Sardonic Angel
# 2296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
So is the Curse of Fenric worth watching?
Yes. It's darker than NuWho but is very worth watching.
Posts: 5407 | From: searching saharas of sorrow | Registered: Feb 2002
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
So is the Curse of Fenric worth watching?
Oh yes. Although its approach to plot structure and exposition can be described by saying that it sets a precedent for Day of the Moon.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eigon:
but then the Doctor needs to be alone for a while now.
He may need to be, but I expect to see Rory and Amy in the next episode (and the next series).
As for this week's episode, even more underwhelming than last week. The premise of the rooms that contain the thing that makes you fall back on what you have trust in had the potential for a really scary episode. It still has that potential if they wish to reuse the idea, but this time it wasn't realised.
And now on to my notoriously inaccurate prediction bit. Cupboards.
Hitler in the cupboard.
Night Terror boy putting his fears in a cupboard.
Camp-scaredey-alien hiding from the weeping angels in the cupboard.
Put together with the eyeball-in-the-dolls-house-drawer and the eyeballs-on-the-flesh-castle-wall, and we have eyeballs and cupboards in the last episode. But I have been wrong before. Most years.
We have seen Mel regenerate into River song, and I think we are supposed to assume that space-suit-girl regenerated into Mel. It is in the nature of Whovian plot twists for this to be a red herring.
I think this is a typical plot hoax, but have no idea who the girl became.
But then Doctor who plots are closer to conspiracy theories than they have to logic - that's part of the fun.
Anyway, a poor Doctor Who episode is still better than most things on the TV. (Big Bang Theory excepted.)
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
So is the Curse of Fenric worth watching?
Oh yes. Although its approach to plot structure and exposition can be described by saying that it sets a precedent for Day of the Moon.
Well worth watching. Though even better if you also see the one (or two) previous stories and the one after. Battlefield, Ghostlight, Fenric, and then Survival make up one of the best sequences of Who ever broadcast. Ghostlight is one of my personal favourite stories from the entire history of the programme.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
I loved the fact that we had a Muslim character who took her faith seriously and wasn't a loony. That is pretty rare on telly (even rarer than Christians!)
I wasn't as bothered as some by the 'Praise Him' imagery, even though it might be seen as bashing my sort of church. Doctor Who has always had a "science trumps religion" thread running through it (apart from a short period in the Davidson era where they went all mystical). Usually, people who worship something/someone are seen as misguided people who need to be educated (cf Leela).
Faith itself wasn't seen as a bad thing - only faith in things which apparently didn't deserve it. So I guess you could say idolatry? (Although that would mean placing Rita's faith in the same category as believing in conspiracy theories or luck, which would be a big stretch.)
The idea of Amy having this sort of faith in the Doctor was a bit surprising to be honest. She certainly wasn't like that when she first met him as an adult. Admittedly Rory was always more clear-eyed (remember his big rant in Venice about what the Doctor does to those who travel with him).
But I was rather put out by the idea that Rory 'doesn't believe in anything'. Really? More like the writer couldn't find time to think up a room for him. I guess his worst fear would be Amy choosing the Doctor over him.
However, the 'worst fears' thing was already covered with the Dreamlord episode (which makes me think the Doctor saw himself in his room - after all, it was Room 11). So I'm glad that wasn't the main focus.
So what's with the 'Rory using the past tense' thing then? More muddled time-streams?
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
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