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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Doctor Who: Silence will fall - the Doctor Who thread returns
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
Huh. Seemed like a return to the worst of the RTD era, with the whole thing based around being "family" and love saving the world, tedious modern-day Earth setting, desperate attempt to crowbar a marketable baddie in to gloss over the gaps, and then the ludicrous, overblown sentimental stuff with the kids, before we even got to the tacked-on "oh yeah, remember that thing that happened ages ago, which we've been more or less ignoring for the last few months, well...". Some good lines, quite fun, and it wasn't exactly bad, but generally a wasted opportunity, and the era-specific pop culture references are really grating in a (sort of) socially inept time traveller. Which reminds me:
He's got a day to live, apparently. He knows this - fine. He knows where he dies and when, and even (maybe) his age at the time, but why the precise day in his timeline when he must die? Is it his birthday in two days? In fact, the whole suggestion that he's going to Lake Silencio and sending the blue envelopes because he knows he did in the past/future looks like another one of those very shaky causality paradoxes. Not as bad as being rescued from the Pandorica by his future self, but still...
And where did those 200 years go? Apart from between AGMGTW and LKH, and now before this episode, he's been travelling with Amy and Rory, who aren't 200 years older. Did he spend his last 200 years searching for a baby, or just bumming around sightseeing on a farewell tour, or is there something else going on? I hope it'll be explained, but I'm starting to worry that it's just going to be ignored or handwaved away.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
I've been scratching my head and wondering what has gone wrong with the last couple of series of Doctor Who. Moffat wrote the best episodes in RTD's series so why isn't it better? In my view he's a more talented writer than RTD but not as good at producing. He's adopted RTD's approach lock, stock and barrel and it's just not working for him. Too much self-referential stuff, too much messiah-complex and way too much contradictory timey-wimey stuff. I really hope they return to traditional Doctor Who format - more cliff hangers and squarely aimed at scaring and thrilling children.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Moffat wrote the best episodes in RTD's series so why isn't it better?
Trying to do too much at once, perhaps. Wasn't he supposed to be working on the new series of "Sherlock" as well?
[ 26. September 2011, 11:14: Message edited by: Ariel ]
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
more cliff hangers and squarely aimed at scaring and thrilling children.
It was the Twanglets first Cyberman episode so that worked well for them!! (6 & 8 repectivley)
The "where have the other 200 yrs gone?" question is a very good one!
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JJ
SDG
blog
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
In fact, the whole suggestion that he's going to Lake Silencio and sending the blue envelopes because he knows he did in the past/future looks like another one of those very shaky causality paradoxes.
Like you I'm not expecting much in the way of solid explanations but I admit I'm quite looking forward to seeing how they get around it at all. They've gone out of their way to present this death as inevitable and the only real possible escape hatches we've been presented with are the Gangers (looking increasingly implausible but you never know) and Amy's unexplained ability to do impossible (did you see what I did there?) and self-contradictory things.
I once read in an interview somebody's claim that the difference between science fiction and fantasy was the degree to which you would tolerate plot-solving elements of magic in the broad sense. That is, a hero surrounded by bad guys will survive due to a clever plot twist in the one, but in the other he will snap his fingers and pluck a magic sword out of thin air. There's a dark side of me that would rather see the Doctor actually die and the series end, than have another magic sword like Goddess Rose or Floaty Doctor but I'm still hoping for a clever plot twist instead.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
And the whole thing is too much a repeat of the Pandorica idea except with a totally new lot of people trying to get him out of the way. People about whom we know very, very little, apart from their peculiar sort of religious bent. I assumed it was the military priests with the Silents, rather than good old Americans from Area 52. (Somehow, I don't find 52 as negative sounding as 51 - I wonder why. Possibly because it ends with a vowel sound, and hence an openness, which the n sound ending 1 is closed.) Even though the miniaturised hellraisers seemed to be down on River Song for killing the Dr, and they seemed to have some sort of religious set-up. The bunch at the Byzantium didn't seem particularly anti-Dr, did they?
Has Kovarian somehow persuaded a later version of the clerics of the Dr's evil nature in order to use them to kill him? Is she the Master? We don't know anything about her at all. And persuading people wouldn't be a problem,if she can mess with River's mind.
And why block off the dominant eye?
Penny
[ 26. September 2011, 12:58: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
In fact, the whole suggestion that he's going to Lake Silencio and sending the blue envelopes because he knows he did in the past/future looks like another one of those very shaky causality paradoxes.
Like you I'm not expecting much in the way of solid explanations but I admit I'm quite looking forward to seeing how they get around it at all. They've gone out of their way to present this death as inevitable and the only real possible escape hatches we've been presented with are the Gangers (looking increasingly implausible but you never know) and Amy's unexplained ability to do impossible (did you see what I did there?) and self-contradictory things.
There are plenty of ways it could be tied up, especially if you're going to take liberties with timelines, and after the Pandorica business, we know Moffat isn't worried about that. Without resorting to doubles, gangers or split timelines, one obvious option is to do something subtle as part of the process of being killed in order to create a paradox, causing a temporal loop/rift until the paradox is resolved by not killing him. Swapping places with 900-y-o Doctor, so that 200 years of important historical world-saving stuff never happened, might be a way of doing that.
I said the Gangers were way too obvious at the time, and I stick by that (I think), but I repeatedly said the same about River Song being the astronaut, and while I'd love it if there was a final twist, it looks like I need to admit defeat on that one. I think the broad themes of identity, parallel worlds and changes with time have been running through this series, and I'll be very surprised if they don't play a part, but with only 45 minutes of screentime to sort it out, I'll be very impressed if we get a proper solution without it feeling rather rushed.
There are lots of loose ends and strange events that would benefit from a few answers, but the first thing we need from any reveal is an explanation of where those 200 years went.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
Moffat claims to have worked it all out, so I've still got faith it'll make some kind of sense in the end, even if there are lots of loose ends at the moment.
Are we still taking bets on this? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[For those who are wondering, the snip comes from a posting back on July 6...]
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
One thing I wonder about...Riversong & stranger tell them that the Dr won't regenerate.
Is that an opportunity for her to remember younger her seeing/doing something after, but only because they left?
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
What bothered me about the last episode was the way they got rid of the woman again, so the blokes could go off together and have the adventure.
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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doubtingthomas
Shipmate
# 14498
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Posted
Disjointed ramblings, days after the fact...
quote:
quote:
The baby was a star.
Most convincing child actor they've had this series
Well, he had no lines, which is an unfair advantage ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by swllwmzn:
Matt Smith is now definitely my favourite Doctor since Patrick Troughton (revealing my age).
No need to admit to your age He's my favourite after Pertwee, but I didn't encounter the third Doctor till long after the actor's death..
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I like the fact that Matt Smith is playing up the non-human aspect of the Doctor, and his social ineptness. That is funny, and gives him that sense of strangeness that some of the doctors have not had.
I like his alienness, too, and also how he can be funny (as you say, even though I think he sometimes overdoes it) and quite dark more or less at the same time.
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
I've been scratching my head and wondering what has gone wrong with the last couple of series of Doctor Who. Moffat wrote the best episodes in RTD's series so why isn't it better?
I think you've answered your own question - he is not actually *writing* all thatmuch of it, and show-running is a very different skill.
Having said that, I quite like having my mind messed with, and have enjoyed these last two seasons despite their shortcomings.
quote:
Penny S wroteOne more plot solved by Dad/son bonding, and without even any change in outcome is getting a bit, well, repetitive.
Yes, that bothered me too. I think it might not have been as bad (or perhaps even provided some balance) if the previous one had been in the first half-season, where I think it was originally planned to be. Having said that - that would of course have bunched the crashed space-craft together.
quote:
The Great Gumby wrote:...but the first thing we need from any reveal is an explanation of where those 200 years went.
yep...
As for things being too obvious, I suuppose that may be necessary for a family show, since even smaller kids need to be able to follow (that said, kids can be quite canny that way). I think that aspect of the Ganger story was quite well-done. But I do agree that it would be brilliant if it wasn't River after all.
Posts: 266 | From: A Small Island | Registered: Jan 2009
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
One thing I wonder about...Riversong & stranger tell them that the Dr won't regenerate.
The Doctor's said to have 12 regenerations and his 13th body is supposed to be the last. Matt Smith is the 11th Doctor, so I don't think the series can really end just yet.
(Unless you count Paul McGann and Peter Cushing, of course, in which case the Doctor has probably had it.)
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
]The Doctor's said to have 12 regenerations and his 13th body is supposed to be the last.
One of the vital points to get straight about Dr Who is that [b]Time Lords lie about themselves[b]. All the time. Especially about their (real or imaginary) superior powers and galaxy-changing technology. The only safe thing to say about how many regenerations any of them get is that no-one knows! After all we still don't know whether being a "Time Lord" is a matter of species, status, rank, role, or job description. We're reasonably convinced that all Time Lords are Gallifreyan (or were until River Song started regenerating) but we have no evidence at all as to whether or not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords (I suspect not, personally, but we really don't know).
Also, over the decades, we've seen Time Lords remove the ability to regenerate from people they don't like, grant extra regenerations to people they do like, steal regenerations from another and use them themselves, and force a premature regeneration on someone who wasn't ready yet. So it seems that it is at least partly a matter of Time Lord technology rather than basic Gallifreyan biology.
And the Doctor broke the rules and ran away, so they might not all apply to him in practice..
And who is in charge of the Time Lord's system these days anyway? Or enforcing the rules? Where is the main current repository of Time Lord technology? That's right - the Tardis. As long as she wants to keep the Doctor alive I suspect she'll be rewriting the rules as she goes along.
So I think its fair to say that the business of 10 - or was it 11 or 12? - regenerations, having served The Force, sorry The Plot, when it was first mooted, is now utterly null and void and to be forgotten - unless of course it is of use to The Plot once more.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
quote:
Ken posted: And who is in charge of the Time Lord's system these days anyway? Or enforcing the rules? Where is the main current repository of Time Lord technology? That's right - the Tardis. As long as she wants to keep the Doctor alive I suspect she'll be rewriting the rules as she goes along.
What a lovely thought.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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doubtingthomas
Shipmate
# 14498
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
]The Doctor's said to have 12 regenerations and his 13th body is supposed to be the last.
So I think its fair to say that the business of 10 - or was it 11 or 12? - regenerations, having served The Force, sorry The Plot, when it was first mooted, is now utterly null and void and to be forgotten - unless of course it is of use to The Plot once more.
The issue is far from forgotten and was brought up in a recent(ish) Sarah Jane adenture, where one of the kids (having seen a regenerated Doctor for the first time) asks how many times he can do it, and Matt Smith cites a random-looking number (507, I think) in reply. My personal take on this is that he isn't really lying outright, but covering up for the fact that he does not actually know. The 12 regenerations were nearly true for the Master at some point, but managed to get round it. The Doctor is now so far outside Timelord Society, that it is quite likely he has no idea what is going to happen.
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'We are star-stuff. We are the Universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out'
Delenn (Babylon 5)
Posts: 266 | From: A Small Island | Registered: Jan 2009
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eigon:
What bothered me about the last episode was the way they got rid of the woman again, so the blokes could go off together and have the adventure.
Puzzled by this comment as getting rid of the woman has not been a problem of Nu-Who. Agreed, it is a staple failing of classic adventure stories, but ever since Eccleston we've been drowning in romance and girly mush. I wasn't impressed by the two blokes in this episode, but would love to get back to something like the Second Doctor and Jamie - mates who can have fun saving the world, without falling in love with each other.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by doubtingthomas:
Disjointed ramblings, days after the fact...
quote:
quote:
The baby was a star.
Most convincing child actor they've had this series
Well, he had no lines, which is an unfair advantage
Remove the word "child" from the central quote here, and the sentence remains perfectly correct!
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
Not quite true, he said 'Doctor'!
I just loved the bromance, can Craig be a companion please? They work so well together.
So, a father's love for their child saves the day again. Oh Rory, I think this is your cue...
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The Doctor's said to have 12 regenerations and his 13th body is supposed to be the last. Matt Smith is the 11th Doctor, so I don't think the series can really end just yet.
(Unless you count Paul McGann and Peter Cushing, of course, in which case the Doctor has probably had it.)
11 includes Paul McGann, who was officially number 8 between McCoy and Eccleston, even though he wasn't actually in any television adventures. If he had been in anything he would have been very good despite the atrocious script.
Nobody counts Peter Cushing, except in trick questions in pub quizzes.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
But Cushing didn't play The Doctor, he plated a human called Doctor Who who invented a time machine.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
quote:
Originally posted by doubtingthomas:
Disjointed ramblings, days after the fact...
quote:
quote:
The baby was a star.
Most convincing child actor they've had this series
Well, he had no lines, which is an unfair advantage
Remove the word "child" from the central quote here, and the sentence remains perfectly correct!
The baby absolutely nailed the part. Now I simply can't imagine any other actor playing the part of Stormageddon.
I am clearly in the minority about the 200 years. I have no problem with the thought that the Doctor left Rory and What'sername after the last episode and just wandered the Universe for 200 years putting off his predestined end (running away, as he said back in Impossible Astronaut) but now has decided that it is time to see it through. I need no explanation as to what happened during those years.
Otherwise, yes, getting bored with love saving the day yet again, although (as Dafyd pointed out) at least Gareth Roberts did try to send it up a bit at the end. That's Proper Who.
I also like Kelly's catch that the Doctor shouts "I believe in you! I believe in you all!" as it does tie in with the legend from "Curse of Fenric" that what the Doctor truly believes in is his companions. And I suspect that, next episode, it is that firm belief that saves him. Rather like it did last season when he trusted entirely that Amy would magically restore him by remembering him.
[Tangent: I say "legend" because, while the novelization states very clearly that the Doctor was reciting his companions names as a sign if his faith, the actual show is not as clear. He might very well be doing that, but we can't hear what he is saying and it is never expressly stated that that is what he is doing.]
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
quote:
Eigon posted:
What bothered me about the last episode was the way they got rid of the woman again, so the blokes could go off together and have the adventure.
Especially after the same thing was just done in "Night Terrors". Mothers have been given short shrift this season. Amy has apparently forgotten her child and in NT and CT the mother wanders in the front door at the end of the episode oblivious and confused having no part in the adventure with a *wink* what she don't know won't hurt her nod.
[ 27. September 2011, 03:40: Message edited by: art dunce ]
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Ego is not your amigo.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
I just loved the bromance, can Craig be a companion please? They work so well together.
Oh, good lord, that idea just reduced me to a squealing five- year- old at a Wiggles concert.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
On the number of regenerations problem - possibly when River revived the Doctor at the end of Let's Kill Hitler, we are told she gave him all her regenerations, so if she had 12 like the other Time Lords, maybe the Doctor now has all of those>
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
I've enjoyed the last 3 stand-alone episodes (and the last one was more or less stand-alone, despite the tagged on end bit and the various doomy comments and looks that Matt Smith does so well).
I've discovered that while I really want to know how this ends (and, frankly, want it to be over), I don't like River Song much any more. It was Let's Kill Hitler and the unconvincing Mels thing that put me off, despite Alex Kingston. We haven't heard about this essential third friend to Amy & Rory and she didn't go to her best friends'/parents wedding because she 'doesn't do weddings'? Really? Though I suppose Amy has lots of different streams to her life (one by herself young, one with aunt but no stars, one with parents, one growing old abandoned by herself...) so Mels could be in one stream but not others, perhaps?
And I want to know how, in Impossible Astronaut, did the older Canton Wotsit Wotsit the Third know that this was undoubtedly the Doctor and that the Doctor was undoubtedly dead? What did his invitation say - 'Come to a picnic, bring bottle and paraffin'?
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
and the era-specific pop culture references are really grating in a (sort of) socially inept time traveller. Which reminds me:
Oh, by the way, if that damn Pop Idol contestant winds up a key player in the finale, I'm gonna be fighting River for the use of that gun. The way the camera lingered on the front page of that newspaper made me nervous.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
RE: the baby. Confidential revealed there were a number of them, not all very alike, and two were dummies. More multiples!
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
And I agree with the problem with the elimination of the mother/child relationship. (And I have had intermittent worries about Amy's health during her non-experienced pregnancy, during which she seems to have spent all the time lying down.) I suppose her failure to feel particularly maternal about her lost baby may be due to her not having experinced the normal precursors to birth. But taken with all the father/child relationships having been in the absence of the mother, it seems even more odd.
There was one mother/child relationship, previously, where the mother killed the Silurian. Excess of Kipling perhaps.
Penny
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Mrs Shrew
Ship's Mother
# 8635
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Posted
I spotted the different babies during the episode. Mr shrew was quite confused by the fact I saw differences, i think they all just looked like babies to him...
I want to put it down to ease of filming, though it is possible it could be some kind of crazy plot -but i really hope not.
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"The goal of life is not to make other people in your own image, it is to understand that they, too, are in God's image" (Orfeo)
Was "mummyfrances".
Posts: 703 | From: York, England | Registered: Oct 2004
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
quote:
Penny S posted:
I suppose her failure to feel particularly maternal about her lost baby may be due to her not having experinced the normal precursors to birth.
Except the scenes on Demon's Run show us an Amy who is completely devoted and when the baby turns to liquid flesh she is completely heartbroken and despondent over the loss. Then you have the voicemail promo where she tells the doctor she cannot bear the thought of not raising Melody. We get to LKH and there's the contrived back story about Mels and she seems to say, oh well, she was kidnapped, brainwashed, pretended to be my friend and now is a weapon; guess that'll do. It just doesn't follow. The father in NT battles for his son even though he's an alien cuckoo in the nest and Craig destroys the cybermen (with much talk about the power of parental love) while Amy in the GTW asks at the end of her life to see earth and seems to have no thought of her child out there somewhere.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I also like Kelly's catch that the Doctor shouts "I believe in you! I believe in you all!" as it does tie in with the legend from "Curse of Fenric" that what the Doctor truly believes in is his companions. And I suspect that, next episode, it is that firm belief that saves him. Rather like it did last season when he trusted entirely that Amy would magically restore him by remembering him.
Oh God, no! Not again, please! I've still got the scars from Last of the Time Lords, with the little Pixie-Tennant becoming all-powerful because Everyone Believes in Fairies. But there's a definite whiff of Fenric about, isn't there?
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
And I want to know how, in Impossible Astronaut, did the older Canton Wotsit Wotsit the Third know that this was undoubtedly the Doctor and that the Doctor was undoubtedly dead? What did his invitation say - 'Come to a picnic, bring bottle and paraffin'?
You mean Canton Everett Delaware III? Another thing that really needs to be resolved, I think. And if it's not too much trouble, I'd also like to know what happened to the 3 months at the start of the series, and it would be nice to see how all the timelines fit together, because I'm not sure how long was meant to have elapsed between dropping Amy and Rory off and seeing them in the shop, for instance. I don't ask for much.
I hope Moffat knows what he's doing, because there's a lot riding on a decent resolution to this arc. If it falls flat, it's going to end up looking like hype, hot air and little substance.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The perfume name - I am sure that I have seen that name elsewhere.
You mean, elsewhere than The Doctor's Wife?
I don't know. Something niggles in my brain*. It may just be The Doctors Wife, but something suggests somewhere else.
* Its probably the earwigs.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Ceannaideach
Shipmate
# 12007
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
RE: the baby. Confidential revealed there were a number of them, not all very alike, and two were dummies. More multiples!
Penny
So could this mean that River's a ganger? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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"I dream of the day when I will learn to stop asking questions for which I will regret learning the answers." - Roy Greenhilt OOTS
Posts: 199 | From: Shakespeare's County | Registered: Nov 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I've still got the scars from Last of the Time Lords, with the little Pixie-Tennant becoming all-powerful because Everyone Believes in Fairies. .
Preach it. That's exactly the sort of thing I was bitching about earlier.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
RE: the baby. Confidential revealed there were a number of them, not all very alike, and two were dummies. More multiples!
Oh, i thought those were just stunt babies--you don't want to risk the star doing some tricky stunt, like spitting up on demand....
There were a couple of times when I suspected there was just a dummy wrapped up in the blanket, just from the way the "baby" was being handled.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I've been thinking about the problem of resolving everything in 45 minutes, and it may not be so much of a problem as it seems. I think we think it is one because we are so used to everything being resolved in the last five minutes atsuchapaceofdialoguethatsubtitlesarerequired and even they don't help because they miss stuff out (and it's really difficult to write without gaps, thank goodness the Irish monks invented them).
Based on my experience with school playlets, when I was told they had to be no more than 10 mins but always arrived at 15, when the children did not gabble, I think it is possible to get quite a lot of plot into a short span. And that's including setting the whole thing up in order to get to the resolution.
However, as Moffat seems to be about to introduce some totally new characters (or possibly old characters drawn on again.), it may be a little more difficult.
Radio Times said it should be satisfying. It had jolly well better be.
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That would be a refreshing switch-- a plot device where the characters had to resolve the problem very, very slowly, with every step of the process being crucial.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
It would but it would then be too interlectual. Children's telly is supposed to go at a frantic pace. (I don't know why.)
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Spoiler Alert, but from stuff now freely available.
The cast list has been published. On different sites, Mark Gatiss is listed under two names. One refers back to a time when I did not have a TV, when the companion was Ace. The plot of that four parter (on Wikipedia) would be relevant to part of the current situation. The Wiki article had a reference to a Sarah Jane episode, which would also be relevant. Parental stuff, time loops, and so on.
None of it really helps with the Dr dying or not. Or Kovarian.
Anagrams for Madame Kovarian - I didn't read all the way down the list, but picked out a few.
Naiad karma move
Karma aimed nova
Karma maiden ova
Karma via daemon
karma avoid amen
a drama vein amok
a dark mania move
a karma omen diva
a karma vain demo
a mama ova kinder
a diva make roman
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Make Romana avid?
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
There were a couple of times when I suspected there was just a dummy wrapped up in the blanket, just from the way the "baby" was being handled.
He has a name you know. There was a bit of dialogue in the house where Craig held Stormageddon in such a way that the lamp shade obscured Stormy's head from the camera. When I saw that scene I suspected a doll.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
As tempting as it is to continue with silly jokes about Stormageddon and the actor(s) that played him, time to move on. I have been going through all the posts on this thread and trying to compile a list of dangling plot lines that I'd like to have answers for. Feel free to add or subtract:
(1) Why did the TARDIS explode last season, and why at that particular time and place (you know, "Amy's Time" just prior to her wedding)?
(2) What was the Doctor up to for 200 years prior to his apparently fated Death Day? I put that in for those of you who expressed concern about it. As I wrote above, it doesn't really bother me.
(3) There was also some concern back at the start of the season about the gaps in the first 2 episodes. IIRC, jumps of 3 months and 6 months. Which, of course, add up to 9 months. Possibly that was the point. Real Amy was snatched early on/prior to Episode 1, so maybe they wanted to make sure there was a 9 month gap to explain why she was giving birth a few episodes later. Except, of course, this is a show about time travel and we could have jumped forward 9 months in a blink of an eye. Still, because they didn't make a big point about the 9 month gaps, it may have just been a gentle hint that the Amy we were seeing was not the real pregnant Amy. So I consider this a non-issue now, but YMMV.
(4) Who did River kill? Okay, it is set up for her to be in the spacesuit to kill the Doctor at the commands of Madame K and her religious military. But if that is right, then why does the religious military then arrest her and lock her in prison for having killed him? Are there 2 religious militaries wandering around (and, really, why not)? Or does River actually kill somebody else (perhaps in addition to apparently killing the Doctor)? If so, who could she kill that would be described as A Good Man that the religious military would feel it merited imprisonment? Or maybe the Doctor is the Good Man she killed (but not fatally, presumably) but she is imprisoned because she also killed an Evil Woman (Madame K, take a bow!)
(5) If River is in the spacesuit, shouldn't she have known it all along--even when, in the first episode, she was shooting at the astronaut? Of course, she would also know that that wouldn't kill her, but if all that is true, all of River's distress at the apparent death of the Doctor and all the emoting she did about it was just play-acting. Feasible, but kind of cheating to the viewer isn't it?
(6) While we are at, why was the Little Girl in the spacesuit anyway? It was theorized at the time that it was a life support suit, but why? What happened to her to require the suit? This is before Amy shoots her, after all. And why was she there then anyway? Was she escaping from Madame K and, if so, how? And how did she get out of the suit? Remember, it was torn open--did she have the strength to do that? How? River hasn't shown any particular signs of superhuman strength (assuming that it was young Mels in the suit).
(7) While we are still on the first two stories, the solution was that the Doctor put a video feed of a Silence telling people to kill them all on sight onto the video feed of the Moon Landing. This wasn't just to condition the then-living humans. He very clearly states that that tape will be played over and over throughout time and, as humans spread across the galaxy they will all have seen it and be conditioned to kill the Silence on sight. Okay, so why didn't Amy & Rory do that? They grew up and presumably saw the moon landing tape before they ever started traveling with the Doctor. They had the conditioning. So, when they first saw the Silence, why did they not make any particular attempt to kill them? Amy sees one in the bathroom and, rather than kill it, engages it in conversation. (Okay, it was Ganger Amy, so maybe some of the conditioning was lost in translation, but the point still stands. )
(8) Who is Madame K and why does she have such a hatred for the Doctor? I kind of like the idea of her being the older, bitter Amy from the 2 Amys episode, but that theory raises questions of how that would even be possible since Current Amy did NOT spend her life in the hospital zone. (I won't re-raise the point of how Old Bitter Amy could touch Current Amy because it has been established that Amy can cheerful touch other incarnations of herself without destroying the time stream, even though Rose could not.)
(9) Why was the Silence spacecraft Amy was held captive in in Episode 2 the same type of craft as was marooned in The Lodger?
(10) What is it about Rory? There is the "past tense" bit in the episode where (allegedly) fears were staying in the hotel rooms. Back in the Flesh storyline, there was a bit where a ganger apparently heard Rory calling her before we saw him leave to search for her. At the end of the Flesh episode, the Doctor melts the Ganger Amy (after spending all episode explaining how the gangers are real people and should be allowed to live) and Rory doesn't react at all. Almost like he knew she was a ganger or knew what was going on. Is there a time-displaced Rory who has been wandering through all these stories?
(11) If Mels was the child seen in the 1960s in IA, then how was she able to grow up with Amy & Rory in more contemporary times (you know, "Amy's Time")? Sure, we don't know how she ages with her Time Lordish abilities, but she grew older with them in what appeared to be a human-appropriate way.
There are more plotlines/open questions, but I got tired after identifying all of these. Feel free to add your own. But it still strikes me as an awful lot of things to resolve in one episode.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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dorothea
Goodwife and low church mystic
# 4398
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Posted
Well, maybe I was just in the wrong mood but I found last Saturday's episode very irritating. Matt Smith's antics got on my nerves and I ended up reading a magazine for half the episode.
J
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Protestant head? Catholic Heart?
http://joansbitsandpieces.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1581 | From: Notlob City Limits | Registered: Apr 2003
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
I recall Mels in regeneration saying needed to concentrate because last time this happened ended up as a toddler. So was that a shift from opening child to a toddler Mels - but as for travel to Amy's time and place we may have to invoke the Madame and team.
Ageing with them would be fine - when not travelling a day for the doctor is a day for the humans too.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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rufiki
Ship's 'shroom
# 11165
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
(1) Why did the TARDIS explode last season...
Maybe the impossible astronaut is an older Doctor, and the paradox of him killing his younger self explodes the Tardis.
quote:
(5) If River is in the spacesuit, shouldn't she have known it all along--even when, in the first episode, she was shooting at the astronaut? Of course, she would also know that that wouldn't kill her, but if all that is true, all of River's distress at the apparent death of the Doctor and all the emoting she did about it was just play-acting. Feasible, but kind of cheating to the viewer isn't it?
We already know that the Silence are good at wiping people's memories.
quote:
(6) While we are at, why was the Little Girl in the spacesuit anyway? It was theorized at the time that it was a life support suit, but why? What happened to her to require the suit? This is before Amy shoots her, after all. And why was she there then anyway? Was she escaping from Madame K and, if so, how? And how did she get out of the suit? Remember, it was torn open--did she have the strength to do that? How? River hasn't shown any particular signs of superhuman strength (assuming that it was young Mels in the suit).
Perhaps the spacesuit is a means to control her, rather than keep her alive. If she regenerated after Amy shot her, that could bust open the suit.
Posts: 1562 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rufiki:
Maybe the impossible astronaut is an older Doctor, and the paradox of him killing his younger self explodes the Tardis.
It is going to take some doing to convince me of this. The Doctor who got shot WAS the 200-year-older Doctor, so you have to have an EVEN OLDER Doctor to make this work.
quote:
We already know that the Silence are good at wiping people's memories.
Okay, I'll buy that. There was a Silence present on the hilside at the time, wasn't there?
quote:
Perhaps the spacesuit is a means to control her, rather than keep her alive. If she regenerated after Amy shot her, that could bust open the suit.
I'll buy that the suit was meant to control her, but she busted out before she regenerated because we saw her walking around before the regeneration. Still not sure why she was there at all. To kill the Doctor? She didn't try all that hard to do so. Of course, neither did Mels. It was only after she regenerated into the Woman-We-Recognize-As-River that she then started trying to kill him repeatedly. But I guess we do know that Mels did shoot a gun in the TARDIS, so maybe she tried much harder to kill the Doctor than we were allowed to see.
Anyway, as I said, a clear plot thread that really needs to be tied up in the final episode.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
It would but it would then be too interlectual. Children's telly is supposed to go at a frantic pace. (I don't know why.)
I thought about it, and realized "Twilight" kind of fits that description.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I have just caught up with episode 3 - clever Freudian stuff with dreams about rooms in houses
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I just caught Closing Time and I'm afraid I didn't much like it at all. It seemed like just another excuse for Moffat to bang on about how fantastic it is being a dad, and about how Love Conquers All. Yadda, yadda, yadda ... (Yes I know Moffat didn't write it, but he commissioned it.) The constant wisecracking sank to new levels, the sonic screwdriver seemed hardly ever out of the Doctor's hand, and the Cybermen seemed tangential to whatever the plot was rather than central to it. (That's a point, now I think of it - did the Cybermen actually get less screen time than the sonic screwdriver? Hmm ...) The "let's make a joke about the Doctor and Craig being gay" thing was laboured and heavy-handed, and Amy and Rory's cameo was pointless. The last couple of minutes were pretty good, though. Result - I'm afraid I don't have very high hopes for this weekend's episode. I really hope I'm pleasantly surprised.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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