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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Doctor Who: Silence will fall - the Doctor Who thread returns
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Result - I'm afraid I don't have very high hopes for this weekend's episode. I really hope I'm pleasantly surprised.
Agreed and agreed. (Or should that be Amen and Amen? I was told this was a Christian website....)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
(2) What was the Doctor up to for 200 years prior to his apparently fated Death Day? I put that in for those of you who expressed concern about it. As I wrote above, it doesn't really bother me.
It bothers me because there's no plot-driven need for it. He could have been a year older, or 6 months, or something. 200 years is a lot of time to be spent "backstage" without further explanation. There may be no explanation beyond emphasising that it was in the future, but that seems clunky to me, and I can't easily believe that he'd spend 200 years travelling on his own, doing nothing of any significance. YMMV.
quote:
(3) There was also some concern back at the start of the season about the gaps in the first 2 episodes. IIRC, jumps of 3 months and 6 months. Which, of course, add up to 9 months. Possibly that was the point. Real Amy was snatched early on/prior to Episode 1, so maybe they wanted to make sure there was a 9 month gap to explain why she was giving birth a few episodes later. Except, of course, this is a show about time travel and we could have jumped forward 9 months in a blink of an eye. Still, because they didn't make a big point about the 9 month gaps, it may have just been a gentle hint that the Amy we were seeing was not the real pregnant Amy. So I consider this a non-issue now, but YMMV.
This is a fair point, but the gap before the series started could have been emphasised to be 9 months or whatever - I think the Doctor said Amy was switched before America? Again, the 3-month gap between eps 1 and 2 may be just to move the story on, but it would be very unsatisfying because it leaves so many unanswered questions, such as what happened after the gunshot, what happened to Rory and River in the tunnel, whether they knew Canton was still on their side and how. That makes me think it should be important, but again, YMMV.
quote:
(7) While we are still on the first two stories, the solution was that the Doctor put a video feed of a Silence telling people to kill them all on sight onto the video feed of the Moon Landing. This wasn't just to condition the then-living humans. He very clearly states that that tape will be played over and over throughout time and, as humans spread across the galaxy they will all have seen it and be conditioned to kill the Silence on sight. Okay, so why didn't Amy & Rory do that? They grew up and presumably saw the moon landing tape before they ever started traveling with the Doctor. They had the conditioning. So, when they first saw the Silence, why did they not make any particular attempt to kill them? Amy sees one in the bathroom and, rather than kill it, engages it in conversation. (Okay, it was Ganger Amy, so maybe some of the conditioning was lost in translation, but the point still stands. )
That's a damn good point, and probably just a plothole, but you could at a stretch explain it by reference to timelines, saying that Amy and Rory hadn't made that happen yet in their timeline, so in that timeline they hadn't seen the message and therefore hadn't been conditioned like that. Messy, but I could live with it.
quote:
(9) Why was the Silence spacecraft Amy was held captive in in Episode 2 the same type of craft as was marooned in The Lodger?
I was hoping we'd get a hint at that last week, but I'm starting to worry that it will never be explained, except possibly as a way of saving money by reusing a set.
quote:
(10) What is it about Rory? There is the "past tense" bit in the episode where (allegedly) fears were staying in the hotel rooms. Back in the Flesh storyline, there was a bit where a ganger apparently heard Rory calling her before we saw him leave to search for her. At the end of the Flesh episode, the Doctor melts the Ganger Amy (after spending all episode explaining how the gangers are real people and should be allowed to live) and Rory doesn't react at all. Almost like he knew she was a ganger or knew what was going on. Is there a time-displaced Rory who has been wandering through all these stories?
Ooh, I'd forgotten the bit about Rory in the ganger episodes, despite mentioning it at the time. I think time displacement nicely explains the anomalies, but how and why?
quote:
(11) If Mels was the child seen in the 1960s in IA, then how was she able to grow up with Amy & Rory in more contemporary times (you know, "Amy's Time")? Sure, we don't know how she ages with her Time Lordish abilities, but she grew older with them in what appeared to be a human-appropriate way.
Yes, we don't know how Time Lords grow up, or how regenerations are affected by their age, and there's a big "if" at the beginning, but I don't think she could have ended up with Amy and Rory by chance, and she wouldn't have known who they were without being told. Considering her actions since then, I'm assuming she was conditioned by the Silence, but if she was the girl in the spacesuit and escaped, that makes no sense because that would appear to mean they couldn't make her fulfil the original plan, but could somehow influence her to try again once she'd escaped. So maybe she was put there at an appropriate age by someone (Silence? Doctor?) with time travel capability, either as a sleeper or for protection.
There's also 12) the question of why they're so hung up on River doing the deed - is it because it has to happen like that, or it did happen like that in a different timeline, or what? If there isn't a very particular reason for needing her to do it, it seems unnecessarily complicated to create a flesh avatar, kidnap Amy and then the baby, bring the baby up, wait around for an opportunity, all the time risking an unfortunate accident which might blow her cover, and then when that fails go after her again long in the future. And 13) why wasn't Mels at the wedding? I know she said she "doesn't do weddings", but really???
One possibility is that Amy shooting the astronaut created a paradox in some way, and everything we've seen since then, especially the small, unexplained anomalies, has basically been strands of time flapping around and trying to reattach into a consistent, coherent pattern. Hence Mels wasn't at the wedding because she didn't exist at that point (or at least not in that timestream). I quite like that as an idea, but that probably means it's complete drivel.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
Apologies for loser-length post. One more thing:
14) What is the oldest question, hidden in plain sight? Is "Doctor Who?" too obvious?
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Considering her actions since then, I'm assuming she was conditioned by the Silence, but if she was the girl in the spacesuit and escaped, that makes no sense because that would appear to mean they couldn't make her fulfil the original plan, but could somehow influence her to try again once she'd escaped. So maybe she was put there at an appropriate age by someone (Silence? Doctor?) with time travel capability, either as a sleeper or for protection.
Yes, I have been struggling with that whole bit, too. If she was escaping from them in her spacesuit, then why was she doing their bidding later; but if she was under their control the whole time, why was she there at that time in the first place?
quote:
There's also 12) the question of why they're so hung up on River doing the deed - is it because it has to happen like that, or it did happen like that in a different timeline, or what? If there isn't a very particular reason for needing her to do it, it seems unnecessarily complicated to create a flesh avatar, kidnap Amy and then the baby, bring the baby up, wait around for an opportunity, all the time risking an unfortunate accident which might blow her cover, and then when that fails go after her again long in the future.
Yes, it is a horribly complicated and inefficient plan. But all that might prove is that Madame K and crew are part of the government.
quote:
And 13) why wasn't Mels at the wedding? I know she said she "doesn't do weddings", but really???
Agreed. Although River was there (albeit just walking past the windows). In a sense, the reveals of this season have sort of explained what she was doing there back then. I admit when I first saw the episode, I was wondering why River was there at the wedding, especially if the memory of the Doctor was allegedly wiped from everybody's mind when he went through the crack. But she might go just to see her parents get married.
Minor side quibble: If memory of the Doctor was wiped when he went through the crack, I can see where Amy & Rory had their memories revived when he came back and they saw him--but why did that restore the memories of all the other beings in the Universe? That could of wound up this season's plot quickly--these virtual unknown people who have a big hate on for the Doctor would no longer be a threat because they forgot that he exists, which restores him to being the unknown wanderer through time and space that he started out being. I wonder if that is still the plan to wind up this season--universal forgetfulness kicks in.
quote:
One possibility is that Amy shooting the astronaut created a paradox in some way, and everything we've seen since then, especially the small, unexplained anomalies, has basically been strands of time flapping around and trying to reattach into a consistent, coherent pattern. Hence Mels wasn't at the wedding because she didn't exist at that point (or at least not in that timestream). I quite like that as an idea, but that probably means it's complete drivel.
Oooh. I quite like that! The reason we did not see the results of the shot is that Amy actually did kill the little girl (in such a way that she could not regenerate), such that River could never have existed and she is a living temporal paradox.
quote:
14) What is the oldest question, hidden in plain sight? Is "Doctor Who?" too obvious?
I am really hoping that it isn't, although it certainly is the "oldest question" in the life of the series. But it is just too self-referential for me to stomach. The characters really shouldn't know the name of the show.
Besides, it is a question that I don't want answered. The classic series lost a large chunk of its charm when it de-mystified the Doctor's origins.
Irrelevant aside: in case anybody was wondering, it was a complete fluke that my list of points stopped at eleven and we are at the Eleventh Doctor. I didn't realize that I had done that until well after I posted. The awkward thing about coincidences is that they happen.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
Well, we shall see, it's nearly time.
One of two things will happen;
Either the final conclusion of the show will be an excellent plot and it will be very enjoyable
or they tying-up of loose ends will be badly done and very unsatisfying....
I find myself very excited and a little nervous... I hope it is as good it needs to be.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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doubtingthomas
Shipmate
# 14498
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I just caught Closing Time and I'm afraid I didn't much like it at all.... (Yes I know Moffat didn't write it, but he commissioned it.)
The difference being that had he written it himself, he might have been able to pull it off ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:
alienfromzog pointed out
One of two things will happen;
Either the final conclusion of the show will be an excellent plot and it will be very enjoyable
or they tying-up of loose ends will be badly done and very unsatisfying....
yes...
Although I am now avoiding all the clever speculation by The Great Gumby and others in case they are getting it right to a spoilery extent.
Under 24 h to go
[ 30. September 2011, 20:26: Message edited by: doubtingthomas ]
Posts: 266 | From: A Small Island | Registered: Jan 2009
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The Revolutionist
Shipmate
# 4578
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Posted
I'm nervously awaiting the finale tonight. I've enjoyed the series generally, but it has seemed rather convoluted with various plot holes and loose ends. But I'll be able to forgive Steven Moffat a lot if he gives it a satisfying ending.
Over at Impossible Podcasts, I've rounded up some of the theories and speculation doing the rounds about how the Doctor survives, from "he's a Ganger!" through to "time can be rewritten" and "The Power of Love™". I doubt that any of my guesses are close enough to spoil anything!
Posts: 1296 | From: London | Registered: May 2003
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
With only minutes left to go let me risk making a fool of myself by saying that the Doctor who dies isn't going to be a Ganger, as that would be too simple. If Gangers appear at all there'll be several of them - perhaps a room full of "Doctors" at some point?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
It kept it's mood quite well.
A few funny bits (Amy, Rory, Area 52) fairly subtle.
The framing narrative thing helped mask many of the issues, and seemed to work quite well.
Solution marginally weak if by itself but tied into the story relatively well*.
How many ways were you right Revolutionist?
*As well as any timey whimey thing more complex in terminator can be.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
That wasn't a great episode, but it was satisfying. Seven or eight out of ten? The incidental society with everything happening at once allowed for some nice surreal visuals of the sort that Doctor Who does better than any other sf series. And the get-out clause worked in an, I should have seen that coming way. (I see it was one of the options in Revolutionist's get-out list.)
(Oh, and Karen Gillan's flicker of expression just when Amy is leaving Captain Williams/Rory to hold off the Silence is perhaps the finest half-second of acting in the series so far.)
[ 01. October 2011, 19:43: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
That wasn't a great episode, but it was satisfying.
Yeah, I think that's a good summary.
7.5/10.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Pacing worked well, the twist of using Silent technology backfiring was good. I was initially satisfied. But the use of the Tesselator was a big plot problem, which has left a whopping great hole.
Earth after Dr dies will have time flowing normally. As we see through most of the episode. But the Dr does not die. So the impression of his death is enough? How can that be?
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Earth after Dr dies will have time flowing normally. As we see through most of the episode. But the Dr does not die. So the impression of his death is enough?
The events that we saw in the first episode (the astronaut shooting the Doctor) had to happen. But what actually happened didn't have to be what everybody thought they were.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Chelley
Ship's Old Boot
# 11322
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Posted
And presumably the Silent/ce being there to observe those happenings by the lake was sufficient as it was part of their plan.
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"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"
Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who
Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Chelley
Ship's Old Boot
# 11322
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Posted
What happened to the ganger Doctor?
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"I love old things, they make me feel sad."
"What's good about sad?"
"It's happy for deep people!"
Sally Sparrow to Kathy - Doctor Who
Posts: 2870 | From: Wonderland, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Looked GREAT. Otherwise, rather vacuous.
If the Doctor had to die, or even appear to, why drag some of his closest friends along and make them suffer for months to no purpose? Why are the Silence trying to kill the Doctor, especially if the appearance of his death is all that is needed? Who are the Silence? Is there something terrible about the Doctor's name? And so forth.
Still, if the Doctor is married, and if we see more of River in the future, maybe we can start having companions who don't fall in love with him.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
Really enjoyed that.
Loved the marriage. River totally convincing in her refusal to let the doctor die.
The next series will have to have the doctor being a little more low-key in terms of the rest of the universe so as not to give away that he didn't die. Hmmm. Wonder how that'll work. Maybe more historical stuff like Dickens or Shakespeare?
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
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Posted
Much more low-key than the usual series finale, and all the better for that (though we had all the fireworks in A Good Man Goes to War). I love it when it leaves me feeling thoughtful rather than just exhausted. River was fantastic (and I never thought I'd say that, I was getting a bit fed up with her), and some lovely moments with Amy and Rory. And an actual chuckle from my hubby for 'Pond. Amy Pond.'
Lots to process and think about, but I must just say this: When Matt Smith was announced as the new Doctor, I remember saying something like 'poor kid, he's got a mountain to climb'. He has well and truly conquered that mountain - as far as I'm concerned, he IS the Doctor. He is 900 plus years old, and has seen the furthest reaches of space and time. (Needs a haircut more than ever, though.)
(ETA - what a joy to see Dickens on Breakfast talking about his new 'Christmas special'!)
[ 01. October 2011, 22:01: Message edited by: Stumbling Pilgrim ]
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Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
The next series will have to have the doctor being a little more low-key in terms of the rest of the universe so as not to give away that he didn't die.
(Off the cuff remark while wondering if producers of show are lurkers)
Makes you wonder how many timelords are out there pretending they didn't die, doesn't it?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Great, loved the whole year, can't wait til Christmas. Only thing on TV I watch every week and have not been dissapointed once.
All the best, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Many thoughts, but #1: am I the only one who thinks that #11 with long hair looks like the oh-too-very-short-lived #8? In a way, I thought the shot of him on the train was a chance at giving 8 a new lease on life, if only for a short while.
#2: Rory makes about the greatest easily flustered badass ever. "Let's get drinks." "Alright." "Let's get married." "Sure"
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I quite enjoyed it, and I thought that it did tie up the problems quite well. I did wonder whether he was going to use the tesselator - which was a good move.
I think the requirements was that The Doctor had to be there, and River had to shoot the Doctor. The necessity for the Doctor dying seems to have been evaded somehow.
I was disapointed by The Question - Doctor Who? But it might have some interesting developments.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I liked it very much. On another sire, I rated it 9/10. That's 9/10 for Doctor Who - which translates to about 27/10 for any other tv show.
It was all very stylishly done, but I think what I liked most was the ultimate resolution. Does this signal a change of direction from here on in? I hope so. Matt Smith was awesome, and the reference to the Brigadier was beautiful.
I think any dissatisfaction I have wasn't with this episode but with the whole story arc. I think the arc was so up-front and complex that some of the arc-lite episodes (such as last week's) were very obviously "filler" episodes and a bit dull as a result.
But I'm now very, very much looking forward to what happens next.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
A good episode, all the better for being lower key than other recent finals. Sure there were plot holes, but who cares, it is, after all, fantasy.
And just enough loose ends to keep you wanting more.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
and the reference to the Brigadier was beautiful.
Oh yes, that was stylish.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Alisdair
Shipmate
# 15837
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Posted
Re yawning plot holes:
1. it's just a silly TV show, where the writers can do whatever they like;
2. who IS 'The Doctor'?; perhaps what he reveals is simply what he wants people to see, and behind that off-hand front there is a much deeper story being played out.
Take your pick, or draw your own conclusions; after all, there's more to life than meets the eye.
Posts: 334 | From: Washed up in England | Registered: Aug 2010
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Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
](Off the cuff remark while wondering if producers of show are lurkers)
Makes you wonder how many timelords are out there pretending they didn't die, doesn't it?
oooooh, now there's a thought ...
One thing I forgot to say - dunno about anyone else, but I think the pit of skulls devouring that poor guy (yes, I know he was about to kill the Doctor, but still) was one of the creepiest things I've ever seen on TV. I've never quite had a can't-bear-to-look moment with Doctor Who, but that was about the closest I've been. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
And yes, a lovely salute to the Brigadier. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
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Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
(Off the cuff remark while wondering if producers of show are lurkers)
Makes you wonder how many timelords are out there pretending they didn't die, doesn't it?
oooooh, now there's a thought ...
One thing I forgot to say - dunno about anyone else, but I think the pit of skulls devouring that poor guy (yes, I know he was about to kill the Doctor, but still) was one of the creepiest things I've ever seen on TV. I've never quite had a can't-bear-to-look moment with Doctor Who, but that was about the closest I've been. What with that and the Silents hanging from the ceiling, I've had to write a note reminding myself never to eat while watching this programme again.
And yes, a lovely salute to the Brigadier. [/QB]
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Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
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Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
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Posted
gah, sorry, rubbish coding AND hit reply instead of edit in the same post! ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
Lots to process and think about, but I must just say this: When Matt Smith was announced as the new Doctor, I remember saying something like 'poor kid, he's got a mountain to climb'. He has well and truly conquered that mountain - as far as I'm concerned, he IS the Doctor. He is 900 plus years old, and has seen the furthest reaches of space and time. (Needs a haircut more than ever, though.)
Oh, I totally agree. Matt Smith really has the "old soul" thing going on. I've only really been through Tennant and Smith; Tennant was a hell of a lot of fun, but Smith just breaks my heart. In a good way.
For those who are interested, Television Without Pity has the recap of "Closing Time" up, and it's hilarious. Among other things, JoeR points out that Craig took a rather long time to tell the Doctor he was "spoken for", and wishes that a Doctor/ Cyberman assimilation would involve steel men with drapey hair.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I too was moved by the reference to Nicholas Courtney and liked the episode generally - loose ends more or less tied up, Amy and Rory more coming into their own, excellent performance by Alex Kingston and Matt Smith.
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Malin
Shipmate
# 11769
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Posted
Well that was great fun, full of colour and moments. When's it back again?
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'Is it a true bird or is it something that exists within a-'
'It's a thing that is,' said Granny sharply. 'Don't go spilling allegory all down your shirt.' Terry Pratchett
Posts: 1901 | From: Norwich | Registered: Aug 2006
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Next will be the Christmas special unless there are any mini episodes for Children in Need.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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dorothea
Goodwife and low church mystic
# 4398
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Posted
After a slightly too trisky start, settled down well. Like a few others, 'satisfying' was went through my head as the end credits and music came on.
J
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Protestant head? Catholic Heart?
http://joansbitsandpieces.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1581 | From: Notlob City Limits | Registered: Apr 2003
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
Enjoyable in parts, but complete nonsense and massively inconsistent. It's good that we appear to be moving towards the Doctor being rather low-key instead of taking on everyone in sight like a drunk chav on a Friday night, and the opening sequence was awesome, even if it was nonsense, but that's about it.
The Doctor apparently had to die at that time on that place, so this is achieved by, er, pretending to die. And this had to happen because the Silence want to make sure he doesn't do various things in his future - so bearing in mind that they have time travel capability and can tell that those things still happen, how exactly is this lame subterfuge meant to work?
Why didn't he just explain his plan to River much earlier, to save all the danger? How could Canton have been so sure it was him and he was dead, when everyone else wasn't? Why are even the Silence noticing that Rory keeps dying? Aren't we tired of Amy somehow remembering things that haven't happened yet? Why were the tesselector crew so happy to help, even making the offer themselves, when the Doctor had chewed them up and destroyed their machine the last time they met? Bearing in mind that the Doctor was wearing the stetson throughout, this all happened after Closing Time, so what happened to "I die tomorrow"? That looked like a lot more than one day's work, even with a TARDIS. Did he really bum around touring the universe for 200 years, then spend his last 24 hours trying to sort it out like a student cramming for an exam he'd forgotten about?
Like the whole series in microcosm - lots of spectacle, some nice lines, but basically completely nonsensical and empty underneath it all, and especially too much River Song. There may eventually be explanations forthcoming for some of the huge mass of unexplained events, but I'm not confident. It's beginning to remind me of Lost.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
I'm probably too big a fan of disc world but it would seem that Mr Moff could at least be consistent in this universe he has created. I gave up hope for continuity after the flimsy back story about Mel in LKH but honestly he's just taken another mulligan. Even my kids thought it was a cheat and one called Moff a stupid liar. My young son commented that if Moff, the doctor and River were all liars why should he watch their show? This is from a guy who sleeps in a K-9 t-shirt and who has watched almost all of old who.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
I am pretty much in accord with everything the Great Gumby said. Including:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
There may eventually be explanations forthcoming for some of the huge mass of unexplained events, but I'm not confident.
No, I have no confidence in that either.
Is my memory totally wrong? In the last episode of the last season, didn't the Doctor himself say "we still need to find out why the TARDIS blew up"? And here we are, a whole season later and nothing has been done about that. It seems to me that addressing it next season is too late.
So, yeah, in the last episode this season, we are given this teaser about the Plains (or planes? ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ) of Whatzits when the Doctor will tell somebody his name which somehow brings the Universe to an end or something. But I have no hope that that will actually be followed up on. And probably just as well.
But I agree with others that the nod to the Brigadier was wonderful and unexpected. I'm willing to forgive a lot for that.
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
(Oh, and Karen Gillan's flicker of expression just when Amy is leaving Captain Williams/Rory to hold off the Silence is perhaps the finest half-second of acting in the series so far.)
I quite disagree. I even went back to look and felt the same way I did the first time I saw it. IMHO, KG fails to convey any sincerity in her acting. She strike me as very mechanical in her reactions. But I guess one's reactions to another's acting is very subjective. In other words, YMMV.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Great Gumby: quote:
Like the whole series in microcosm - lots of spectacle, some nice lines, but basically completely nonsensical and empty underneath it all
Agree completely. And with Art Dunce and hedgehog. Lovely moments, crap overall.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
OK - I haven't given the previous three episodes 100% concentration and (thanks to a headache) I dozed off partway through the last one. I woke up bemused and thinking that it isn't easy for someone coming into the series without previous background to pick up what's going on. I'm afraid I have no idea what happened, except the Doctor married River and saved the universe (as he always does).
It did seem pretty much that monsters from the previous episodes were being brought in for a Grand Finale - which has come to be a defining note of final episodes now. I found the whole thing too fast-paced and convoluted to make much sense of. I don't think that's due to the headache as I've felt that way for the past three episodes, but this does seem to have been a series that requires complete concentration to follow (otherwise you miss lots of details) and I haven't put that in.
The normally wonderful Alex Kingston seemed to be over-acting at times, while Karen Gillan was in her usual unemotional mode. The start of the new series of "Merlin" which followed immediately after came as something of a relief and something I altogether enjoyed much more, and would definitely stay in to watch.
Things change, we move on. I don't like the way the Doctor has become so messianic, or his companions. It was better when it was simpler. YMMV.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Roseofsharon
Shipmate
# 9657
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
this does seem to have been a series that requires complete concentration to follow
Probably best not to, judging by the amount of over-thinking and complaining that has been going on here throughout the current run.
Still, at least that was better than being confused by the Torchwood tangents.
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Talk about books -any books- on our rejuvenatedforum http://www.bookgrouponline.com/index.php?
Posts: 3060 | From: Sussex By The Sea | Registered: Jun 2005
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Apparently Mr Moffat has said in interviews that next season he's going to "throw the lever the other way", away from big-scale stuff with complex story arcs. So that's good news for some of us, especially those whose brains go all fuzzy at the complicated stuff.
I think there's absolutely no chance whatsoever that we'll ever actually find out the Doctor's name. There might be revelations about why we won't find it out, but I don't think any showrunner would dare take it further than that. Apart from anything else, they'd have to change the name of the show, wouldn't they?
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Did he really bum around touring the universe for 200 years, then spend his last 24 hours trying to sort it out like a student cramming for an exam he'd forgotten about?
The Doctor's turning point came with the phone call to the Brigadier. After Closing Time, he had been on a "farewell tour", but being a bit like Ten in Waters of Mars - "The laws of time are mine!" and all that - forever cheating death by putting off going to Lake Silencio.
Then he has his rant at Dorium, about how Time "has never laid a glove on me!" - only to be told a moment later that one of his oldest friends had died. (On another site, someone commented that "the Brigadier put the Doctor in his place one last time".) That's when it came home to him that the Silencio moment was inevitable, and he submitted to it.
I think you've got to bend things a bit to make the get-out plan actually work, though, and I think that was a weakness. You have to believe that the plan made things "close enough" to satisfy Time, while also achieving the main objective which was to convince the Silence and the rest of the universe that he had really died.
I think he resisted telling River about his plan earlier because initially he didn't want anyone to know, not even her. He wanted his removal from the universe to be complete. It was only when it became obvious that River was willing to sacrifice the universe rather than kill him that he let her in on the plan.
Finally for now, on something that Stumbling Pilgrim said - yes, the bit with the skulls was seriously scary - another of those "I can't believe they're showing this at 7pm" moment. I wonder if Mark Gatiss (who was under all that Viking make-up) had some input there? - that sort of scene is very like him.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I think there's absolutely no chance whatsoever that we'll ever actually find out the Doctor's name. There might be revelations about why we won't find it out, but I don't think any showrunner would dare take it further than that. Apart from anything else, they'd have to change the name of the show, wouldn't they?
Yes - depending on what it turned out to be, the show might well end up being renamed "Doctor WHAT???"
(I don't imagine we'll ever know - and am happy not to know - but hope it isn't something like Endeavour!)
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
(I don't imagine we'll ever know - and am happy not to know - but hope it isn't something like Endeavour!)
It's probably Trevor.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Did he really bum around touring the universe for 200 years, then spend his last 24 hours trying to sort it out like a student cramming for an exam he'd forgotten about?
The Doctor's turning point came with the phone call to the Brigadier. After Closing Time, he had been on a "farewell tour", but being a bit like Ten in Waters of Mars - "The laws of time are mine!" and all that - forever cheating death by putting off going to Lake Silencio.
Then he has his rant at Dorium, about how Time "has never laid a glove on me!" - only to be told a moment later that one of his oldest friends had died. (On another site, someone commented that "the Brigadier put the Doctor in his place one last time".) That's when it came home to him that the Silencio moment was inevitable, and he submitted to it.
He said at the end of Closing Time that he was "going to die tomorrow". He knew when it was going to happen, and apparently he just felt like spending his last 200 years prior to that sightseeing. He knew it was inevitable, because he was already going there willingly, before the Brigadier bit. It could have made sense with a bit of care, but it seems Moffat had his hands full writing some more tedious flirting dialogue and working out whether Romans in spitfires or steam trains in space would be cooler.
quote:
I think you've got to bend things a bit to make the get-out plan actually work, though, and I think that was a weakness. You have to believe that the plan made things "close enough" to satisfy Time, while also achieving the main objective which was to convince the Silence and the rest of the universe that he had really died.
I could live with the time-bending if the rest had been worth it. Just say that what everyone saw was a "fixed point" (although that recent innovation is really starting to get on my tits now), but they didn't see what they thought they saw. It's slightly handwavy, but fair enough. In fact, it's one of the most sensible aspects of the whole business.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Forget about the supposedly missing 200 years. There are no missing 200 years and even if there were so what?
The real thing that needs to be worked out is how brutal Amy has become. At this rate it would be no surprise to find that Kovarian is in fact Amy grown up, so that she did get to look after Melody/River when she was little and she has now murdered herself twice.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Alisdair
Shipmate
# 15837
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Posted
Anyone feel there may be misogynistic/domination undertones leaking out? Everyone causing the Doctor significant grief at the moment is female.
Posts: 334 | From: Washed up in England | Registered: Aug 2010
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Forget about the supposedly missing 200 years. There are no missing 200 years and even if there were so what?
The real thing that needs to be worked out is how brutal Amy has become. At this rate it would be no surprise to find that Kovarian is in fact Amy grown up, so that she did get to look after Melody/River when she was little and she has now murdered herself twice.
Well all of the stuff he has been doing may have taken him 200 years...
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
People have been complaining, though, that Amy didn't seem to be bothered about losing the baby in the last few episodes - so her revenge on Madam Kovarian showed that she actually was very bothered indeed.
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I have heard froma Whovian friend that Moffat is known to have misogynistic opinions. I don't know if it is true, but it sure wouuldn't surprise me from this last season.
Are these people who are prepared to overlook the companions' mothers and the treatment of Martha in Davies' run?
Based on River Song and Amy, I might say that Moffat has a limited range of women characters he can write, but then Sally Sparrow didn't fit into that mould. Some of the other complaints boil down to either, Amy is assertive and not a carer-type and that's really unfeminine, how negative of Moffat to depict a woman like that; or are basically stalking horses for I want Davies and Tennant back (because they're overlooking equally if not more troubling aspects of Davies' attitude to women).
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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