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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Doctor Who: Silence will fall - the Doctor Who thread returns
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I was reading this thread while the Goons was on Radio 4 Extra. Apart from wanting to moan that they are dirty rotten swine, and River Song has fallen in the water, the disjointed narrative does seem to echo that. Without the jazz passages.
I find the nested flashbacks irritating. Very.
It seems an extraordinary mixture of far too detailed planning (I can imagine charts of each characters' time line) with "making it up as they go along", leading to the incoherence within each episode. And I couldn't understand what the alien said which was broadcast - too garbled.
The old children's home reminded me of something, which I can't quite recall. There's Amy's old home and its invisible alien which has been rewritten out of her life, I suppose. But it seems to be from something totally different. The nearest I can get is a film based on what happened to Dorothy after Oz, which involved a mental hospital.
Penny
[ 01. May 2011, 07:45: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Dormouse
Glis glis – Ship's rodent
# 5954
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Posted
Now, I willingly admit that I'm the first to miss vital points, BUT from the beginning I was confused... Amy running for her life was "6 months later" - so what had happened in the intervening 6 months? Why were all four in different places? Did they know that Canton Thing was a goody or a baddy? Did they pretend to die when he shot them or not? Were the other Men In Suits with Canton goodies or baddies? When River Song fell out of the high rise did she know the Tardis was going to pick her up? If she didn't why was she calmly drying her hair instead of gabbling like a surprised monkey when we next saw her? Why WAS she in a half constructed high rise building in an evening dress? etc etc.
I was so full of questions that I sort of lost the plot at the beginning!
I enjoyed the episode, but I do seem to find myself being more critical...Or maybe there's more to be critical about?
We watched Confidential afterwards which I felt was a bit self congratulatory. And I find Karen Gillan just as irritating as Amy Pond. There seems to be little to choose between them.
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What are you doing for Lent?
40 days, 40 reflections, 40 acts of generosity. Join the #40acts challenge for #Lent and let's start a movement. www.40acts.org.uk
Posts: 3042 | From: 'twixt les Bois Noirs & Les Monts de la Madeleine | Registered: May 2004
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
I am glad that when Nixon made an appearance and said "I am President Nixon" nobody said "I know who you are"
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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mrs whibley
Shipmate
# 4798
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Currently thinking about getting two kittens and calling them William and Patrick.
My first thought was that you were so upset you were going to name them after Messrs Shatner and Stewart!
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I long for a faith that is gloriously treacherous - Mike Yaconelli
Posts: 942 | From: North Lincolnshire | Registered: Aug 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dormouse:
When River Song fell out of the high rise did she know the Tardis was going to pick her up? If she didn't why was she calmly drying her hair instead of gabbling like a surprised monkey when we next saw her? Why WAS she in a half constructed high rise building in an evening dress? etc etc.
River Song is carrying on the grand tradition of Servalan (for those of us who remember Blake's Seven). Servalan was always very elegantly dressed - quite inappropriately so most of the time, some may remember her tottering around the sand dunes in a billowing evening frock, high heels and dangly earrings while trying to shoot Avon and Tarrant.
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrs whibley:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Currently thinking about getting two kittens and calling them William and Patrick.
My first thought was that you were so upset you were going to name them after Messrs Shatner and Stewart!
Please. They are rather late in the day for my tastes.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Yes, there were too many questions,not enough answers for me. It makes it unsatisfying and far from making me feel intrigued to watch the next one, I am starting to have stray thoughts of can I be bothered?* Oh for a companion who wasn't the centre point of the universe!
And I'm getting sick of 'story arcs' that last over whole series.
M.
*Actually, I'm sure I can but - I don't want to have thoughts like that! I remember watching the very first Doctor Who, I don't want to give up now!
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
quote:
Originally posted by mrs whibley:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Currently thinking about getting two kittens and calling them William and Patrick.
My first thought was that you were so upset you were going to name them after Messrs Shatner and Stewart!
Please. They are rather late in the day for my tastes.
I thought you meant the captains, too - and wondered about the tenuous sci-fi link...
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
I also got confused by the start.
(Probably a side effect of watching when rather tired) but I did find something stuck in my head, not nightmares, but definitely something.
Didn't mind Riversong and the Doctor, after all there's a very S.F. conceit behind it, her realisation that she's near the end was emotional, (relatively) subtle and fitting.
Not so keen on the Amy plot-line. It seems rather gratuitous, and I'm not quite sure (perhaps had they spread the elements over 3 assistants).
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
What a fickle bunch. I realy enjoyed both episodes very much. The Doctor reacting to the kiss with River was a perfect bit of acting, among many other highlights.
Wasn't the machine Amy was strapped into very similar to the one from "The Lodger" ?
All the best, Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
I've just watched it again and enjoyed it more this time, I think. What did the Doctor mean when he said to Amy at the end, 'You only live once'? I mean, I know what most people would mean but the Doctor is in his eleventh regeneration...
I think we will see Clanton Delaware the wotsit again, as there has been nothing (at least that we've seen) about him turning up in 2011.
I still think it was odd that the Doctor seemed so complacent about River killing all those Silents (or Silence?).
So, lots of questions. I still find that annoying, even though I want to find out.
And I thought Alex Kingston's acting after the kiss was great, when she realised that it was the last time she would kiss him.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
I saw the similarity and it was confirmed on Confidential that the spaceship was the same as the one in The Lodger. They didn't really explain it and perhaps it was just the ancient Who tradition of re-using sets.
I don't think River Song jumped off the skyscraper expecting rescue in any particular way but she saw it as the only way to go to escape. She did do something similar in a previous story when she jumped off a space ship to be picked up by the Tardis. I laughed when the Doctor gave the order to open the doors to the swimming pool. Then she appeared coolly drying her hair rather than gabbling like a monkey because she is cool.
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I rewatched it - and didn't gain much from the exercise, except that the Dr had a brief flash of memory of Amelia's house with the snakey monster which kept from sight. (Which would not have been seen by anyone who blinked at that moment.)
And I suspect the Lodger reference is not just re-use of sets.
Now was the Silence in existence at all in the previous run of the universe, or is it a new creation in this version?
Penny
[ 02. May 2011, 09:35: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
The snakey things (and other big-tooth types from that series) were all manifestations of some inmate from a pan-galactic prison, iirc. We know River has been/will be imprisoned but unsure of her crime so I guess it may have to do with that.
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
Posts: 6477 | From: Alice's Restaurant (UK Franchise) | Registered: Sep 2005
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
I liked it. The Silents are the scariest monsters since my childhood. I wasn't quite hiding behind the sofa, but I was cuddling a cushion and nearly hiding behind it. The fact that at times we didn't see Silents, just that Amy had marked herself for each encounter made it more real. Though I'm still confused by the whole 3 months later 6 months later thing at the beginning.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I rewatched it - and didn't gain much from the exercise, except that the Dr had a brief flash of memory of Amelia's house with the snakey monster which kept from sight. (Which would not have been seen by anyone who blinked at that moment.)
And I suspect the Lodger reference is not just re-use of sets.
Now was the Silence in existence at all in the previous run of the universe, or is it a new creation in this version?
Penny
The Silence would have to have been in existence in the previous universe run because
1- The universe was recreated as it was on the eve of Amy's wedding, so if they were not already in the atoms in the Pandorica they could not have been in the new universe
2- The spaceship was the same as in the lodger episode as previously stated and the Doctor recognised it. He seemed to know where he had seen it before and wondered how it had got to the other house.
The girl - I thought at first she was Amy's child, but if she is a Time Lord as well I don't want to watch. I like Rory and would hate Amy to cheat on him with the Doctor.
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
The snakey things (and other big-tooth types from that series) were all manifestations of some inmate from a pan-galactic prison, iirc. We know River has been/will be imprisoned but unsure of her crime so I guess it may have to do with that.
Nooooo - I don't want River to turn out to be the snakey thing in human form!!
Re the little girl, it occurred to me she might be Captain Jack's. He got an overdose of Time Lord power through Rose and the Eye of Harmony so maybe this is a possibility? Or maybe she's something to do with The Master.
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The Revolutionist
Shipmate
# 4578
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Posted
I'm pretty sure that the child is either:
1) Amy and Rory's, and being conceived while travelling through time and space has given her regenerative abilities
2) The Doctor and River's, and has inherited the ability to regenerate from the Doctor.
3) Created by the Silence, perhaps from DNA from one or more of the TARDIS crew, or perhaps simply experimenting on an orphan, in an attempt to engineer someone capable of piloting the TARDIS-like ship they're building.
There's no way they would have Amy cheat with the Doctor.
Posts: 1296 | From: London | Registered: May 2003
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Re the little girl, it occurred to me she might be Captain Jack's. He got an overdose of Time Lord power through Rose and the Eye of Harmony so maybe this is a possibility? Or maybe she's something to do with The Master.
Or something to do with the Doctor's daughter who presumably is still wandering the Universe.
Or something to do with the mysterious Time Lady who was helping during the Return of Gallifrey story line.
Or it could all be a huge coincidence.
I am rather hoping that the reason River is in jail is because she killed Amy--in which case, it is understandable why the prison authorities are being so easy on her. The only problem is that I think it has already been established that she killed a male.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
I like Rory and would hate Amy to cheat on him with the Doctor.
So would I. It's possible that Amy conceived a child with the Doctor while Rory didn't exist. And now Rory exists again, it both didn't happen and did happen.
But I'd rather there was another explanation too. (For one thing, Rory might not ever have existed for Amy, but the Doctor remembered him.)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
The snakey things (and other big-tooth types from that series) were all manifestations of some inmate from a pan-galactic prison, iirc. We know River has been/will be imprisoned but unsure of her crime so I guess it may have to do with that.
Oh SHIT! Big teeth! You were right!
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Or something to do with the Doctor's daughter who presumably is still wandering the Universe.
She's a clone, isn't she? Will there ever be a time, do you think, when we shall hear about the Doctor's *original* family, ie his granddaughter Susan and whoever her parents were? Susan stayed on earth, but I don't remember anything about her parents.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Funny clone though. Double X instead of XY. Unless Time Lords have a different set up.
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Gosh. What a conclusion to the story! The fact that I didn't like it quite as much as part 1 is entirely due to my personal taste on story arcs, no reflection on the incredibly skilful scripting, acting and directing. Doctor Who has grown up a bit, I think - and it certainly expects you to pay attention if you're not going to come away from the episode thinking, "Hang on, why did they...?"
The Silents were pretty creepy, but some of the scenes in the orphanage were downright scary. And what the heck was that bit with the woman in the eyepatch looking out through the door panel? - the seed of another future story arc?
The final shock of the little girl nearly made me fall off my sofa! And next week it's pirates! Arrrr ...
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
Is it just me, or does anyone else think The Silents are distantly related to the Dementors?
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
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Pangolin
Shipmate
# 7728
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Posted
I loved it.
Maybe being really thick with this question - how did the Doctor, Amy et al. remember the Silence after they'd looked away for long enough to set up everythign they needed such as the red palm light, the marks on their arms etc? I suppose it's implied that they see the photo on Amy's phone but wouldnt they forget about that as soon as they looked away?
Exhilarated but confused.
P
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www.iaskforwonder.com
Posts: 235 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jun 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
...maybe the series needs a 3 year hiatus...
You think anyone in the BBC is going to let them miss the 50th anniversary of the show in only thirty months time? Really?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
The old children's home reminded me of something, which I can't quite recall. There's Amy's old home and its invisible alien which has been rewritten out of her life, I suppose. But it seems to be from something totally different. The nearest I can get is a film based on what happened to Dorothy after Oz, which involved a mental hospital.
There was the Doctor Who story in which Ace returns to Perivale: Ghost Light. Most of that was set in a very, very, scary old house.
Ace is of course "Dorothy Gale" and based loosely on Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz!
The last three episodes of the McCoy period (& therefore the last three of the original-format series) were all about rediscovering Ace's past - a concetration on the private life & personal history of the companion that was also something new to the series. In many ways the RTD Who carried on from exactly where the regular broadcasts had left off in 1989.
quote:
Funny clone though. Double X instead of XY. Unless Time Lords have a different set up.
Well, yes. A very different set-up. They aren't human! They are no more closely related to us than we are to mushrooms or oak trees! They are shapeshifting aliens who can look like anything they want. Why do they choose to look human? That's the interesting question.
[ 03. May 2011, 16:36: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Story arcs were rarely used in the old show - the Key to Time being the main exception, with shorter arcs being a bit more common, such as the E-space stories and the crew's separation from the TARDIS between Ark in Space and Revenge of the Cybermen.
There was also The Daleks Cunning Plan or whatever that lost glorious season was really called. And The Chase though as that's six 25-minuters it might get counted as one story and not an "arc" (which we used to call a "plot" in the old days)
And the last few Baker (T) stories and the first Davison stories fit together in a way, with a plot arc that leads up to Castrovalva. They also have a common sort of touch-and-feel to them - all that Escher-topological stuff, and psuedomediaeval high-tech, and wibbling about entropy and decay.
Of course the real long-term plot-arc goes well beyond any one series. The "Dalek Civil War" stories from the 1980s: Destiny/Resurrection/Revelation/Remembrance of the Daleks make a coherent story when watched in order, even though each has a different Doctor. They are also a direct (if unplanned) sequel to Genesis of the Daleks which retconned Davros into the history of Skaro.
But there is yet more - Remembrance, which is one of the all-time great Who stories, is also in indirect sequel to (or tribute to) An Unearthly Child, the first ever Dr Who, broadcast twenty-five years earlier, and has some aspects in common with or reference to The Evil of the Daleks, now lost but often thought of as the greatest ever Who story. (Just as an aside The Evil of the Daleks is part of its own mini-arc because it partly takes place at the same time and in a nearby place to The Faceless Ones and The War Machines)
And to bring it up to date, Remembrance is even more also famously part of the Time War which was so much a feature of the Ecclestone stories.
So, its all, like, really complex, man....
[ 03. May 2011, 16:39: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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itokro
Shipmate
# 16135
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
I saw the similarity and it was confirmed on Confidential that the spaceship was the same as the one in The Lodger. They didn't really explain it and perhaps it was just the ancient Who tradition of re-using sets.
The Doctor did mention having seen one before, and wondering how it came to be abandoned. I assume that we'll find out more about how it came to be abandoned in a later episode - meaning we're not yet done with the Silence (eek)!
quote:
I don't think River Song jumped off the skyscraper expecting rescue in any particular way but she saw it as the only way to go to escape. She did do something similar in a previous story when she jumped off a space ship to be picked up by the Tardis.
I get the feeling she does that sort of thing a lot, knowing the Doctor will always be there to pick her up. And while I like River generally, this reliance on the Doctor to get her out of trouble grates a little.
Posts: 74 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2011
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
I was just checking on upcoming TV on my media centre's EPG when I spotted a couple of interesting things:
- BBC4 are showing The Hand of Fear on the 9th&10th May - presumably a tribute to Elisabeth Sladen.
- The episode after next (no 4 of the current series) has an intriguing title, which I won't give away, and is written by Neil Gaiman.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
I can't remember any of the old doctors indulging in snogging!!
What days did they used to show it on? I've a feeling we used to have to watch McCoy era midweek (the only program we even bothered to try to watch when our ariel got broken in the great hurrican that Ian McKaskil missed) or am I just making it up?
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JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itokro:
I get the feeling she does that sort of thing a lot, knowing the Doctor will always be there to pick her up. And while I like River generally, this reliance on the Doctor to get her out of trouble grates a little.
Strictly speaking, because she thinks that she is meeting the Doctor in reverse chronological order, she knows that, until the Doctor meets her for the first time, she must survive. Now, we know that the Doctor first meets her in "The Silence in the Library"--which explains why River looked desperately afraid when she realized that the Doctor did not know who she was. Only then did she know that there was a chance that she would die. And die she did. Sort of.
So she might not know for sure that the Doctor would rescue her if she jumped off the building, but she knew for certain that she would not die. Something would save her.
Of course, the flip side is true, too. The Doctor cannot die until she has met him for the first time. Which hasn't happened in the series yet. Unless she is the little girl.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Ace and McCoy was in my no TV period - couldn't afford one, so only saw things broadcast while I was visiting my parents, or on weekdays after school so I could use the school TV before the caretaker came round.
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Strictly speaking, because she thinks that she is meeting the Doctor in reverse chronological order, she knows that, until the Doctor meets her for the first time, she must survive.
In universe, of course, time can be changed.
Out of universe, I don't think Moffat has got straight in his head how River and the Doctor are interacting. River has said at least once now that they're going in reverse directions. If they were just going in reverse directions, there would be no need for their diaries because they'd just know that anything they remembered hadn't happened to the other person. Also, River Song would have realised she was dealing with future Doctor, and therefore something was wrong, when the future Doctor shared some of the same memories.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Strictly speaking, because she thinks that she is meeting the Doctor in reverse chronological order, she knows that, until the Doctor meets her for the first time, she must survive.
In universe, of course, time can be changed.
Out of universe, I don't think Moffat has got straight in his head how River and the Doctor are interacting. River has said at least once now that they're going in reverse directions. If they were just going in reverse directions, there would be no need for their diaries because they'd just know that anything they remembered hadn't happened to the other person. Also, River Song would have realised she was dealing with future Doctor, and therefore something was wrong, when the future Doctor shared some of the same memories.
I'm hoping (really, really hoping) that the "opposite directions" thing was intended as a simplification for the younger audience, to explain why the relationship's so asymmetrical and generally screwed up. My reaction when she said it was the same as you, but on rewatching it, I could see that it might be a crude generalisation. I don't think Moffat has a strong grasp of how this is all meant to fit together, but I'm not sure that this proves it.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
Ken, I bow to your awesome knowledge ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) - see? But then I am a mere whippersnapper who only goes back to Pertwee and 'The Three Doctors'.
I think that I remember the series moving to midweek (twice a week) when Davison took over, but his final season - and the following (delayed) season of Baker the Lesser - was back on Saturday evenings. McCoy's series were then on in midweek about 7.00 pm (dragging the depths of my memory for my student days with a B&W portable TV).
There is only one canonical time for Doctor Who, and that is on Saturday evenings right after Grandstand. Sadly, having cancelled Grandstand, it now follows something inane like Total Wipeout...
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
In universe, of course, time can be changed.
Except,of course, for those times when it can't.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Obviously there always has to be - and always has been - an element of story arc in DW. Even if you go back to the very first series, we were led to believe that every story from An Unearthly Child and at least up to The Sensorites followed on from each other. They were all also bound by the narrative thread of the Doctor trying to return Ian and Barbara to 1963 London.
Later, from (say) Baker Minor onwards, a criticism sometimes levelled at the show was that it became too self-referential and obsessed with its own internal continuity, to the extent that the actual story-telling suffered. The prime example, I think, would be the abysmal Attack of the Cybermen. Remembrance of the Daleks is so good because it's a rare example of getting the balance right.
I've a friend who writes for a Well Known Soap Opera. He says that even in a programme that's broadcast several times a week, a surprising number of episodes will be "continuity-light", and almost self-contained, so as to provide plenty of stepping-on points for new viewers. I wonder about the wisdom of starting a new season of DW with a story that drew heavily on the previous season and which sets up a number of things that'll need to be resolved over the coming year (or more).
Though I enjoyed this story, one thing that is starting to irritate me a bit is that the TARDIS has become the new "get out of jail free" card - it can now be programmed to the nearest fraction of a second, the nearest few centimetres, so as to rescue someone falling from a building. If you can do that with it, what can't you do? One of the key principles of the old show was to make the TARDIS at least a bit unpredictable, precisely so that it wouldn't become the solution to every problem. One thing you'll notice about the first two episodes of this series is that virtually every turn of the plot was enabled by the pinpoint accuracy of the TARDIS.
As to the Doctor snogging - no, he never did in the classic series. But he was engaged once, to a lovely Aztec woman called Cameca.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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The Exegesis Fairy
Shipmate
# 9588
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Posted
I think 'opposite directions' was meant to be a simplification. A general principle rather than in every case. Otherwise somebody's brain would implode.
Man, the awesomeness of the first two new episodes. And do you know what's really brilliant?
I HATE River Song.
Hate her.
The new Doctor has pretty well grown on me. (Tennant's still my favourite, but Time Marches On).
Rory, having become a little more developed and slightly less useless (though I find the uselessness rather endearing considering all the Mary Sues he hangs out with) makes me happy.
Amy Pond has grown on me. Because even though she's a Black Hole Sue, she's somehow less annoying when compared to the nails-on-a-blackboard perfection of River Song.
I don't mind that River Song is beautiful and brave and completely kick-ass. That is fine. I'm all for that. I mind that she's Mary-Suiel of the Rings, and that she's Steven Moffatt's author avatar.
She scares Daleks. She never gets dirty, or messed up, she's never cowardly, she doesn't have to pretend to get shot (which was actually really awesome, but that's my point; she's never not awesome, and unless she's a Time Lady in disguise, honestly...argh.)
Plus, she knows everything. She can fly the TARDIS better than the Doctor (how? HE has to be the one who taught her...argh, stable time loop again...brain...imploding...)
*deep breaths*
And yet, in spite of the fact that I find her immensely irritating about 50% of the time, I loved these episodes. I loved pretty much everything about them, from the creepiness to the confusion to the unanswered questions.
And that's Doctor Who magic.
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I can only please one person a day.
Today is not your day.
Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
Posts: 500 | From: the clear blue sky | Registered: Jun 2005
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wilson:
I was just checking on upcoming TV on my media centre's EPG when I spotted a couple of interesting things:
- BBC4 are showing The Hand of Fear on the 9th&10th May - presumably a tribute to Elisabeth Sladen.
- The episode after next (no 4 of the current series) has an intriguing title, which I won't give away, and is written by Neil Gaiman.
Ooooooh....
I was just thinking I'd need to find that on i-player because I missed it, and I'd really like to watch that.... and then realised we haven't had May 9th and 10 th yet.
I'd better go and lie down.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Exegesis Fairy:
Amy Pond has grown on me. Because even though she's a Black Hole Sue she's somehow less annoying when compared to the nails-on-a-blackboard perfection of River Song.
OK, I've started a poll in the Circus for anyone who wants to vote on the character they find most annoying. Let's see whether Amy or River gets the most votes.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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The Exegesis Fairy
Shipmate
# 9588
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Posted
Hooray, Ariel! Being opinionated on the Interwebs is fun!
Though everyone else seems to find Amy the most annoying. She is in every episode of this season and the last one, so it's not so surprising.
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I can only please one person a day.
Today is not your day.
Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
Posts: 500 | From: the clear blue sky | Registered: Jun 2005
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Exegesis Fairy:
Hooray, Ariel! Being opinionated on the Interwebs is fun!
Though everyone else seems to find Amy the most annoying. She is in every episode of this season and the last one, so it's not so surprising.
That's a fair point (as was Pyx_e's miles back on me whining), the Daleks have magically back in force to be magically exinctified,pretty near the limit (though they currently are both alive and quiet).
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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The Exegesis Fairy
Shipmate
# 9588
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Posted
Jay-Emm, I don't mind alive and quiet. New Who has hit the reset button so many times my head spins, but if they're not on the screen, (or in the finale) I'll be happy.
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I can only please one person a day.
Today is not your day.
Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
Posts: 500 | From: the clear blue sky | Registered: Jun 2005
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Originally posted by Ken:
quote:
But there is yet more - Remembrance, which is one of the all-time great Who stories, is also in indirect sequel to (or tribute to) An Unearthly Child, the first ever Dr Who, broadcast twenty-five years earlier,
This made me & Macarius go back and watch Remembrance, which I agree is great. But I'd forgotten that I find Ace even more annoying than Amy!
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
Oh, come on - how can Amy or River be the most annoying when we have Adric and Mel in the show's past?
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
They're the most annoying in the present series - well, Amy is IMO, I like River.
If we're broadening the field, I'm throwing in Peri, the Fourth and Seventh Doctors and Gwen Cooper from Torchwood.
[ 07. May 2011, 11:11: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Originally posted by Ken:
quote:
But there is yet more - Remembrance, which is one of the all-time great Who stories, is also in indirect sequel to (or tribute to) An Unearthly Child, the first ever Dr Who, broadcast twenty-five years earlier,
This made me & Macarius go back and watch Remembrance, which I agree is great. But I'd forgotten that I find Ace even more annoying than Amy!
M.
I was so intrigued by good things said of 'Remembrance' that I ordered it off Amazon for about a fiver - it plopped through the letterbox this morning ![[Smile]](smile.gif) !
I don't recall disliking Ace much at the time, but Peri - ! She can be tied to Amy and drowned in the same pond, and good riddance.
eta: I like River a lot. Alex seems a lovely person in real life, whereas Karen Gillan (in Confidential, anyway) is as irritating as her screen self.
[ 07. May 2011, 11:20: Message edited by: Pine Marten ]
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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