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Source: (consider it) Thread: Doctor Who: The Doctor is back! (Summer 2012)
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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(don't look, A)

*****
*****


NO! Not the Bethesda Angel!


I'm gonna have to watch "Angles in America" after this to reset my dials.

(and the Lady Liberty scene totally trumped "Cloverfield." Totally. Scared the SHIT out of me.)

[ 30. September 2012, 01:22: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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As a matter of interest, how far behind you are we? We've just had the cubes episode ...

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Really? One week.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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Okay, as a youngster, I walked up the INSIDE of the Statue of Liberty. If it was a Weeping Angel--well, ummm, that's just wrong.

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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art dunce
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# 9258

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I thought it was lovely.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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I'm glad they kept it personal rather than pan-galactic. See, guys? The personal is powerful.

***
***

The music was still killing me though. Seriously! The actors were hitting grand slam after grand slam, they didn't need strings to swell up! (Ahh, don't mind me...)

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Off Centre View
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# 4254

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Apparently Saturday was the festival of Archangels or the Feast of Saint Michael and All Angels (or Michaelmas)!
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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Off Centre View:
The Lady Liberty bit just made me laugh (do the events of this episode means it no longer exists in the Whoniverse?)

Yes and no. The Whoniverse has never been a consistent place. It is whatever the next writer wants it to be.

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Gill H

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# 68

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A few nice touches - Amy calling River 'Melody' when she knew she was unlikely to see her again (unless the plot gods demand it - cf. Bad Wolf Bay...)

Likewise River calling Amy 'Mother'z

And according to the gravestone, both their surnames were Williams, not Pond!

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- Lyda Rose

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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That was an excellent episode. Very poignant, very touching. It was sad to see the Ponds go (OK, the Williams, but to the Doctor, they were Ponds).

It does remind me a little of losing Rose, IIRC, who was also alive, but trapped in a part of the continuum that is inaccessible to the Doctor.

It was interesting that the emphasis on him not being alone was made. There is an interesting sense that the Doctor is, as time goes on, losing his grip a little - going slowly mad, because of all that he has been through.

Matt Smith is doing some interesting things with the Doctor character, making him more alien than any other. But at the same time, with some human emotions that he doesn't really know how to handle, so it is an interesting insight into human emotion.

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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351

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From the last few episodes I've been left with the impression that the writers have been striving (generally successfully) to undo some of the earlier awful writing of Amy. Both in terms of her general character, but with particular reference to her attitude towards/love for Rory vs. her relationship with the Doctor.

Which is nice on a number of levels - not least to see a(n ultimately) positive portrayal of a life-long relationship on a mainstream TV programme.

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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I thought it was a good episode at the time, and I think it's getting better as I think more about it. I think it edges it over Asylum as Moffat's best since he took over. It may even beat Blink on everything except straight scares.
(They should get Hettie MacDonald, who directed Blink, back. There were several occasions last night in which characters were having conversations in front of angels and looking at each other.)

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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Well I thought it was practically perfect in every way. The Angels were used strongly, like they were in Blink; it was well directed, beautifully designed and the acting was brilliant. I'm sure there were lots of plots holes (how could there not be when you get this timey-wimey?), but I don't care - the script was excellent. Good, rather old-fashioned storytelling at its best. The Williams-Ponds were fantastic, and nicely complemented by the ... um ... Song-Doctors. Matt Smith just gets better and better.

And a copper Angel - who'd have thought? [Big Grin]

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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There was nothing that said the statues had to be stone, I guess. And the appearance of Liberty behind people on the roof was stunning.

There are always plot-holes. That is part of the joy of DW, rather than a lot of more "serious" SF, which tries to be consistent, but often has less of a "wow" and "fun" factors. It works, and, in the end, that is what matters.

--------------------
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take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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Warning! Somewhat spoilery

It was a wonderful episode with all the nice touches that others have commented on. The regulars (including River) were strong. I love River pretending that she didn't break her wrist to try to comfort the Doctor. I loved Amy calling her Melody. I loved Rory staying true to his love of Amy--to a man who was willing to protect her for thousands of years, death is a little thing.

There were silly bits, of course. The concept that the Statue of Liberty could cross from its island to peak over a Manhattan rooftop and NOBODY see it is ridiculous. The Revolutionist pointed out back on Sept. 28 that it is not really practical for something as large as Liberty to be moving around when "not observed."

And the concept of the gravestone adding a name after Amy goes back in time is silly. I mean, the stone was happy to show Rory's name BEFORE he went back--so why wouldn't it have already shown Amy's name as well? But appearing/disappearing writing is a standard time-travel trope. It is something visual for the television medium to show. So, yeah, I give it a pass at the same time that I roll my eyes over how silly it is.

But these are minor points. Over all, it was a strong and entertaining episode.

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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Having had time to think about it, I thing this was one of the better episodes. Not that there was anything wrong with the others, but this was particularly strong.

(There are no plot holes, the TARDIS is a paradox engine, which covers everything.)

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
And a copper Angel - who'd have thought?

I'm pretty sure the Doctor said something about the angels taking over statues. That would imply it's not actually an angel, merely possessed or controlled by one.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Paul.
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# 37

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I won't deny it had it's moments. Alex Kingston is always great. But it felt like a return to the worst excesses of the RTD era - sentimentality dialled up to 11.
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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
But it felt like a return to the worst excesses of the RTD era - sentimentality dialled up to 11.

I didn't find it that way. Sentimentality is when false emotion is either plastered onto something or genuine emotion is over milked. And I don't think that happened. The emotion here was earned. I think it's partly that the emotional speeches were folded into characters persuading each other to make or not make choices. The worst excesses of the RTD-era were all speeches in which characters told each other about the significance of choices that were already made, or otherwise were pauses in the story when the story stopped and the emotional bits happened.
The other thing is that actually the symbolic weight is earned. When RTD has the TARDIS is meant to be piloted by six people, that's just a fact he's made up about the TARDIS. When Moffat has the Doctor reading the afterword of a story when he doesn't like endings, that's about coming to terms with the death of loved ones. All the timy-wimy stuff is there because it's about reading stories and because reading stories is about being alive, and if you've managed to say something about being alive you're entitled to some emotional reaction.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Why would River be bothered about breaking the Angel's arm? She's never been notable for subscribing to any Peace Testimony.
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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Warning! Somewhat spoilery
And the concept of the gravestone adding a name after Amy goes back in time is silly. I mean, the stone was happy to show Rory's name BEFORE he went back--so why wouldn't it have already shown Amy's name as well? But appearing/disappearing writing is a standard time-travel trope. It is something visual for the television medium to show. So, yeah, I give it a pass at the same time that I roll my eyes over how silly it is.

The names appear when the death is determined, and a fixed point in that timeline. Rorys death was fixed, but Amys was not until she went back.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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Malin

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# 11769

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I've enjoyed the series and found that an emotional ending. Something quite horrific about Rory being trapped in that awful building alone til the end of his life knowing he would only see Amy again for a moment before he died.

I can understand why jumping off the roof seemed a better plan and why Amy took that risk to go after him at the end. For them being together had come to be everything no matter where in time or space they were. There would be no (more) children, just the two of them always.

Something the Doctor can never have.

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'It's a thing that is,' said Granny sharply. 'Don't go spilling allegory all down your shirt.' Terry Pratchett

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Hugal
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# 2734

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I agree with most of the posts so far. This was a great episode. One of the things I liked most was Amy finally decided who was most important to her. Looking forward to Christmas.

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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But are we ever going to understand why Amy tried the shag the Doctor the night before her wedding?

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Why would River be bothered about breaking the Angel's arm? She's never been notable for subscribing to any Peace Testimony.

And have you ever tried to break a statue before with your bare hands? Not that I've tried, but I can't imagine it'd be easy.

It's nice to be able to read this thread again. Silly America, making me wait a day . . .

But, a few tropes that seem to have been elaborated upon:
1. The Doctor and River really seem to have no problem at all with defacing priceless artifacts (or even just pulp novels and DVDs) to send messages to one another through time. "This Picture is a Fake" was only the beginning, wasn't it?
2. Being alone. Ever since NuHu started, this has been a theme. Even the Doctor realizes what happens when he travels alone—he becomes the distant immortal god of time and space who sees the universe, not with wonder, but as a plaything. Nobody wants a Doctor who does that.
3. Getting older. Amy and Rory have been portrayed as older several times throughout their tenure, and, really, the gravestone may say Rory was 83, but I'm guessing that's leaving out the 2000 years he was plastic. The Ponds were adjusting to getting older, even if it was at a faster rate than their friends; the Doctor, well, just keeps on acting younger, to avoid admitting the fact he's 1200 years old. The Ponds grew into one another, with Amy changing from a two-man lady early on to Rory's companion, and Rory becoming more than just the useless metal dog, a nurse, into a warrior, a person who would perform feats for Amy, and, in the end, both became someone you could see with the other. The Doctor hasn't got a clue about being married to River, does he? This Should Be Interesting.

On a final note, I'm glad they made it all-but-impossible to bring back the Ponds, a la Rose the Immortal. Sure, we might get the occasional special showing other adventures the two of them had with the Doctor that weren't shown, but the closure in this one, the fact that it is made clear that, really, this is the end, and even the Doctor has to deal with that . . .
The plot and characters can't support a change to that. It better not happen. I'm sure the fanfic and novel writers are going to have plenty to work with for the foreseeable future, but Amy and Rory have been written out for good.

Now then, bring on Soufflé Girl!

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
On a final note, I'm glad they made it all-but-impossible to bring back the Ponds, a la Rose the Immortal. Sure, we might get the occasional special showing other adventures the two of them had with the Doctor that weren't shown, but the closure in this one, the fact that it is made clear that, really, this is the end, and even the Doctor has to deal with that . . .

Except that apparently River, riding her motorcycle through traffic, can make it in to see them. And, if she can make it in, then, in theory they could make it out. But I think the suicide scene makes it clear--they have chosen that they prefer to be with each other rather than with the Doctor.

So is the Doctor going to break the news to Brian (a/k/a David) ?

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
On a final note, I'm glad they made it all-but-impossible to bring back the Ponds, a la Rose the Immortal. Sure, we might get the occasional special showing other adventures the two of them had with the Doctor that weren't shown, but the closure in this one, the fact that it is made clear that, really, this is the end, and even the Doctor has to deal with that . . .

Except that apparently River, riding her motorcycle through traffic, can make it in to see them. And, if she can make it in, then, in theory they could make it out. But I think the suicide scene makes it clear--they have chosen that they prefer to be with each other rather than with the Doctor.

So is the Doctor going to break the news to Brian (a/k/a David) ?

Mmmm, two sorts of wibley-wobbly, timey-wimey. One was just "there are so many angels possessing so many statues, sending all these people back in time that it's hard to get there." The other is "you created a paradox. It's not just traffic, it's a wall." Or, it could also be "um, hey writers. Can you cook up a reason why one barely works, but the other doesn't? Thanks!"

And yeah, The Doctor breaking the news would be a great scene. Hopefully he (by whatever name I've rechristened him this time) signs up for more!

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Roseofsharon
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# 9657

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:

The Doctor breaking the news would be a great scene.

Is The Doctor up to the task?

Brian did ask, I think, if any of the previous companions had not come back, so he's probably half expecting A & R to just disappear without an explanation.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

Matt Smith is doing some interesting things with the Doctor character, making him more alien than any other. But at the same time, with some human emotions that he doesn't really know how to handle, so it is an interesting insight into human emotion.

That's what eventually grabbed me about his portrayal; he added this element of the Doctor really yearning to be more human, or at least to figure humans out. His alienness only sets off how cherishable it is when he finds those moments.

Hey, Pyx, if you're reading-- any Incarnation allegories in there anywhere? [Biased]

[ 01. October 2012, 03:03: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
But it felt like a return to the worst excesses of the RTD era - sentimentality dialled up to 11.

I didn't find it that way. Sentimentality is when false emotion is either plastered onto something or genuine emotion is over milked. And I don't think that happened. The emotion here was earned. I think it's partly that the emotional speeches were folded into characters persuading each other to make or not make choices. The worst excesses of the RTD-era were all speeches in which characters told each other about the significance of choices that were already made, or otherwise were pauses in the story when the story stopped and the emotional bits happened.
The other thing is that actually the symbolic weight is earned. When RTD has the TARDIS is meant to be piloted by six people, that's just a fact he's made up about the TARDIS. When Moffat has the Doctor reading the afterword of a story when he doesn't like endings, that's about coming to terms with the death of loved ones. All the timy-wimy stuff is there because it's about reading stories and because reading stories is about being alive, and if you've managed to say something about being alive you're entitled to some emotional reaction.

Fair enough.

I guess I don't see that much of a distinction. "The Doctor doesn't like endings" seems as much a convenient new piece of information shaped to fit this particular episode as "the TARDIS needs six people to operate it" did. I think it's just that less people tend to complain about character stuff than technical stuff - The Doctor suddenly liking Fez's is just a fun new detail, the way the TARDIS works changing is a BIG FAT MISTAKE!

Anyway, I think the thing that makes me feel like it's sentimentality is that in order to get to the point where Amy has to choose Rory over the Doctor (and btw her daughter!) forever you have to really crank out the plot devices - the Angels creating the problems with time-travel, Amy's actions creating "fixed time" that the Doctor can't penetrate (huh?). If that plot works for you then the consequences are emotional and genuinely moving. If you find it a teensy bit contrived as I do, then it all feels like a set up designed to extract the tears.

FWIW I'd much rather be in the "it works for me" camp. I guess I'm just a cynical old sod.

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Paul.
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# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
1. The Doctor and River really seem to have no problem at all with defacing priceless artifacts (or even just pulp novels and DVDs) to send messages to one another through time. "This Picture is a Fake" was only the beginning, wasn't it?

I think I'd probably feel the same way if I travelled in time a lot. The artifact is priceless because it's survived so long and is a rare example of its kind. When you can zip back and see them being knocked out by the dozen (not quite but you get the point) then you start to see that value based on age is somewhat subjective.

Also the Doctor is well known for wreaking all kinds of havoc in people's personal lives just because he wants to go joy-riding around the space-time continuum with some company. Next to that defacing the odd artifact is small potatoes.

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The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

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quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
I guess I don't see that much of a distinction. "The Doctor doesn't like endings" seems as much a convenient new piece of information shaped to fit this particular episode as "the TARDIS needs six people to operate it" did. I think it's just that less people tend to complain about character stuff than technical stuff - The Doctor suddenly liking Fez's is just a fun new detail, the way the TARDIS works changing is a BIG FAT MISTAKE!

I don't think there is a distinction. Everyone writes hugely convenient things in to help the story in the direction they want to go. The only difference is style, like a conjuror with the necessary misdirection and sleight of hand. If there's enough style, it all flows naturally into one movement. If not, it looks clunky and clumsy. We might be able to broadly agree on which are which, but ultimately it's subjective.

This was a pretty good episode, but there were some huge clunkers. Sloppy production led to unwatched but unmoving angels, the angels seemed to methodically shepherd their victims to the roof for no reason when they could and should have blocked the doorway as soon as anyone went in, they're not nearly as scary in large numbers as they were in Blink, and the Statue of Liberty walking unseen through New York? Really?

But the story was an interesting idea, even if it was just a means to the end of Rory and Amy, and I found their final few scenes genuinely touching in an I've-got-something-in-my-eye way, rather than an artificial emotion-turned-up-to-11 way.

The most annoying thing is that this short run has been consistently pretty good (if you overlook the last few minutes of last week's episode), possibly the best sustained run in NuWho, but now we've got to wait 3 whole months for our next fix.

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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Lord Jestocost
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quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
The Doctor suddenly liking Fez's is just a fun new detail, the way the TARDIS works changing is a BIG FAT MISTAKE!

[TANGENT]According to the commentary and notes on the "An Unearthly Child" DVD, it was actually at the back of the set designer's mind - though never stated out loud - to suggest that the TARDIS was built for a crew of six, hence the console's shape and the fact that the Doctor has to run round and round to make it do anything. RTD was giving a nod to the geeks as well as having a purely gratuitous "let's squeeze everyone in" scene. [/TANGENT]
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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
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TGG:
quote:
The most annoying thing is that this short run has been consistently pretty good (if you overlook the last few minutes of last week's episode), possibly the best sustained run in NuWho, but now we've got to wait 3 whole months for our next fix.
Limit that to "best sustained run since Moffatt took over" and I agree with you. The best run, IMHO, was what amounted to a six part finale for the Martha season. Can't remember which season number that was. (And anyone who gives a single figure number should go and sit on the naughty step.)

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Paul.
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
The Doctor suddenly liking Fez's is just a fun new detail, the way the TARDIS works changing is a BIG FAT MISTAKE!

[TANGENT]According to the commentary and notes on the "An Unearthly Child" DVD, it was actually at the back of the set designer's mind - though never stated out loud - to suggest that the TARDIS was built for a crew of six, hence the console's shape and the fact that the Doctor has to run round and round to make it do anything. RTD was giving a nod to the geeks as well as having a purely gratuitous "let's squeeze everyone in" scene. [/TANGENT]
Noted. I wasn't actually referring to that detail specifically, though that's not clear because I didn't provide another particular example. My point was IME fans seem to notice (and care about) the technical inconsistencies more than the character ones.
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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Limit that to "best sustained run since Moffatt took over" and I agree with you. The best run, IMHO, was what amounted to a six part finale for the Martha season.

I gather that fan opinion of the final two episodes is mixed.

quote:
Can't remember which season number that was. (And anyone who gives a single figure number should go and sit on the naughty step.)
I make it season twenty-seven. McCoy was 22-24.(*)

(*) Pedants may disagree with this statement, but a moment's thought will show that I am correct.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
... a moment's thought will show that I am correct.

*Scratches head* Will it? Surely it's

Hartnell 1 - 3 (and a bit)
Troughton (most of) 4 - 6
Pertwee 7 - 11
T Baker 12 - 18
Davison 19 - (most of)21
C Baker (one story of 21 and) 22 - 23
McCoy 24 - 26

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
... a moment's thought will show that I am correct.

*Scratches head* Will it?

C Baker (one story of 21 and) 22 - 23

I rest my case.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
... a moment's thought will show that I am correct.

*Scratches head* Will it?

C Baker (one story of 21 and) 22 - 23

I rest my case.
Ah, if only wishing could make it so ... [Big Grin]

--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Hedgehog

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# 14125

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
... a moment's thought will show that I am correct.

*Scratches head* Will it? Surely it's

Hartnell 1 - 3 (and a bit)
Troughton (most of) 4 - 6
Pertwee 7 - 11
T Baker 12 - 18
Davison 19 - (most of)21
C Baker (one story of 21 and) 22 - 23
McCoy 24 - 26

And then there is McGann for---umm, oh, dear. I can't really call one story a "season" now can I?

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
But are we ever going to understand why Amy tried the shag the Doctor the night before her wedding?

It was the night before her wedding. Bride panic.

The night before my wedding-- I am not kidding- I had this scathingly erotic dream about waltzing into a auto-shop and frantically consorting with a REALLY ugly mechanic. I mean, Oh My God, What Am I Doing? ugly. Amy was just a little more freaked out than most of us get. And at least she had better taste.

Anyway, you think Rory sat home and played whist with his friends on his stag night? [Big Grin]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
And a copper Angel - who'd have thought?

I'm pretty sure the Doctor said something about the angels taking over statues. That would imply it's not actually an angel, merely possessed or controlled by one.
I've just seen an interview with Steven Moffat on the BBC website. He pokes fun at the whole Liberty thing, saying it never occurred to him that there might be tourists inside when she went for a walk. He imagines them saying something like "Well, we thought we were just going for a day out, but hey, we're going to terrorise some people on a rooftop."

I've watched the story again, and I just love it. Rory on the roof is beyond magnificent. Amy is at her very best throughout. And that last bit, harking back to - what story was it? - when little Amelia looks up joyfully at the sound of the TARDIS ... I didn't really see that very clearly, I seemed to have something in my eye.

--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Jay-Emm
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Anyway, you think Rory sat home and played whist with his friends on his stag night? [Big Grin]

No he went fighting vampire like lady fish in Venice IIRC.
[Smile]

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Hedgehog

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Good memory, Jay-Emm! I had forgotten that episode, with the Doctor jumping out of the cake (and the conversation going down hill after that)!

--------------------
"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
The night before my wedding-- I am not kidding- I had this scathingly erotic dream about waltzing into a auto-shop and frantically consorting with a REALLY ugly mechanic. I mean, Oh My God, What Am I Doing? ugly.

And yet, somehow, this didn't make it to the "Dreams Remembered" thread...


[ETA: Apologies for the double post.]

[ 01. October 2012, 21:05: Message edited by: Hedgehog ]

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Trudy Scrumptious

BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647

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Now that I've finally seen it, I'd have to say it ended exactly the way I knew it would from the moment they announced that Amy and Rory's heartbreaking farewell would be in an episode that featured Weeping Angels. It seemed pretty obvious that the Angels would send one of them back to a point in the past where, for some contrived reason, the Doctor would be unable to fetch them, and the other Pond would go back to them to live out life in the past together.

I enjoyed the execution, found the angels pretty scary. Loved all the Doctor-River stuff -- I am really buying them now as an old, if unconventional, married couple.

The ending felt rushed. I wanted at least one glimpse of Amy and Rory in their lives in the past, not just the Afterword from the book.

Leaving them stranded in the past was pretty contrived. It was very much like Rose's last episode when, amidst all the drama and angst, I was thinking "If this were anything other than Billie Piper's last episode, the Doctor would manage to find a way to keep/get her out of the alternate universe -- he's gotten her out of worse jams than this before!" The only reason it was an unsolvable problem was an actor/director/producer reason, not an in-story reason.

Likewise here -- only the holes were even more obvious, because anyone could see how easy it was for the Doctor to save them. So New York, 1938 is time-locked and the Tardis can never get back in there? When does it become unlocked? Can the Doctor give them a couple of years in the past and then get into New York, 1940 and pick them up? Or if it's just New York, can't he tell Amy to go back, get Rory and get back to England and he'll pick them up there in 1938? The possibilities for solving this unsolvable problem are endless, but as the show decrees the Ponds are leaving, we have to accept that they're somehow unsolvably stuck in the past.

None of this stopped me from enjoying it, by the way.

--------------------
Books and things.

I lied. There are no things. Just books.

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
... a moment's thought will show that I am correct.

*Scratches head* Will it?

C Baker (one story of 21 and) 22 - 23

I rest my case.
Ah, if only wishing could make it so ... [Big Grin]
29, therefore, shurely?

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Limit that to "best sustained run since Moffatt took over" and I agree with you. The best run, IMHO, was what amounted to a six part finale for the Martha season.

I gather that fan opinion of the final two episodes is mixed.
Mmm, good call on some pretty decent stories. That series definitely improved from a ropey first half, but Dobby Doctor and Floating Saviour Doctor really ought to result in immediate disqualification from any measure based on quality.

Actually, that's a useful point of comparison with the latest series - RTD tried to create drama and tension by numbers, often literally. It was all about the scale. More Daleks, more Cybermen, more death. In that series, he had a tenth of the Earth's population slaughtered for shiggles, but compassion fatigue sets in, so the next time round the Daleks had to want to destroy the entire universe for some unfathomable reason.

What I appreciate about the latest series is that it's all been more contained, with the Doctor getting into and out of scrapes that are about him, his companions and a few new friends, with the exception of one foiled invasion which was more of a vehicle for character development anyway. There's been no intergalactic catastrophe to avert or foreshadowed death to avoid, so it's been possible to actually care about the situations and personal responses.

I don't mind a sense of scale, or huge overarching purpose, but only if it flows from the story and makes sense, rather than the plot being driven by a need for ever greater spectacle. I've said before that I think the cheap filler episodes have a better-than-average hit-rate, and part of that's because they're forced to be small-scale and to focus on a few people.

If this is a sign that the Doctor's going back to being a cosmic hobo and meddler, without all the messianic baggage, I'll be very happy.

--------------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
The possibilities for solving this unsolvable problem are endless, but as the show decrees the Ponds are leaving, we have to accept that they're somehow unsolvably stuck in the past.

The problem is caused by a temporal paradox. Basically if the Doctor nudges it any further the place blows up. (Remember Father's Day.) I assume the problem is that the paradox is as much attached to Rory as it is to New York.

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Trudy Scrumptious

BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
The possibilities for solving this unsolvable problem are endless, but as the show decrees the Ponds are leaving, we have to accept that they're somehow unsolvably stuck in the past.

The problem is caused by a temporal paradox. Basically if the Doctor nudges it any further the place blows up. (Remember Father's Day.) I assume the problem is that the paradox is as much attached to Rory as it is to New York.
That's a good explanation, I'll buy that. I'll buy almost anything, really, but I'll still maintain that if it wasn't the Ponds' last episode, the Doctor would have found some way to get around the paradox and get Rory back.

--------------------
Books and things.

I lied. There are no things. Just books.

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