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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Doctor Who: (again) Winter 2012
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I've just watched The Tenth Planet a couple of days ago. And by far the most striking and chilling part of the story is the 2nd episode, where the Cybermen truly behave in a logical, uncaring Cyberman fashion that is completely different to the behaviour of Daleks, the previous iconic villains. The Cybermen aren't a threat to humanity because they want to destroy us all, they're a threat to humanity because logic dictates that being a Cyberman is a better option and they're not interested in whether it FEELS like a GOOD option.
I'm yet to see the extent to which the Patrick Troughton Cybermen stories will live up to this or completely trash it.
The Tenth Planet is a very good story, apart from perhaps the rather low-key send-off for William Hartnell. I think there are plans to do an animated version of the lost final episode for DVD release.
As to the Troughton Cybermen stories - hm. I only know The Moonbase from the novelisation and the two existing episodes. I'd probably describe it as "okay, I guess". The Tomb of the Cybermen was, for a long time, one of the missing stories that was supposed to be a classic. Then a copy turned up and we all discovered that not only was it pretty mediocre (except for Troguhton's performance, which was excellent), it was also shockingly racist. I don't think anyone has ever claimed that The Wheel in Space was a classic. So that leaves The Invasion as the one to watch out for. The two missing episodes were animated for the DVD a few years ago, and that's when I first saw it. I think it's absolutely superb. Troughton's brilliant performance as the Doctor is matched by Kevin Stoney's as Tobias Vaughn. The story maintains a taut pace throught its eight episodes and also happens to be the first UNIT story, featuring the newly promoted Brigadier Lethbridge Stewart. The only problem is, the Cybermen are very much in an also-starring role. They lurch around in the sewers a bit but only come above ground in the last couple of episodes. Nevertheless, I think it's the one unmissable Troughton Cyber-story.
Arguably, though, the Cybermen were never again as horrifying as they were in The Tenth Planet.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I'll be watching 'em all regardless. Although some of those Loose Cannon reconstructions are harder to track down than others, I'll be relentless!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'll be watching 'em all regardless. Although some of those Loose Cannon reconstructions are harder to track down than others, I'll be relentless!
We want reviews!
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
You might have said that before I got partway through Season 4... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You might have said that before I got partway through Season 4...
Well I was just thinking of reviews for the Troughton Cyberstories. But if you're offering ... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Ceannaideach
Shipmate
# 12007
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Posted
And just to bump the thread it looksss like the Ice Warriors are coming back!
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"I dream of the day when I will learn to stop asking questions for which I will regret learning the answers." - Roy Greenhilt OOTS
Posts: 199 | From: Shakespeare's County | Registered: Nov 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Only a few days ago I was reading a blog post about how there's only a point to bringing back iconic Doctor Who creatures if you have some idea what to do with them, and what makes them different from other Doctor Who creatures.
Here's hoping. Although if it involves Mark Gatiss I'm worried on the basis of what he did to the Daleks...
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Only a few days ago I was reading a blog post about how there's only a point to bringing back iconic Doctor Who creatures if you have some idea what to do with them, and what makes them different from other Doctor Who creatures.
I've come across two recent ice warrior stories in the past two months. (*) Both are good stories, but have the problem that the ice warriors act like generic monsters who oughtn't to be generic monsters. The sontarans have more individuality.
I read a recent blog post that accused Gatiss of uncritically recycling sixties sf tropes for nostalgia value. That makes him unlikely to do anything other than make the ice warriors generic villains again.
(*) the novel The Dying Days over Christmas, and the Big Finish audio Deimos/ Resurrection of Mars last month.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You might have said that before I got partway through Season 4...
Well I was just thinking of reviews for the Troughton Cyberstories. But if you're offering ...
The Tomb of the Cybermen on the weekend. Completely unimpressed. Maybe it's just because they were moving rather than being reconstructed, but some of the acting was TERRIBLE. It was also rather racist and the overall plot was lacking sense. One of the worst stories in a while.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
PS Having said that, the Cybermen did at least continue to show some signs of thinking specifically like Cybermen. Which is what started this tangent.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Only a few days ago I was reading a blog post about how there's only a point to bringing back iconic Doctor Who creatures if you have some idea what to do with them, and what makes them different from other Doctor Who creatures.
Here's hoping. Although if it involves Mark Gatiss I'm worried on the basis of what he did to the Daleks...
There's a difference between Daleks and Ice Warriors, though: people actually care about the Daleks. Ice Warriors? He can mess 'em up as much as he wants, won't nobody really notice. They just get another 40 year hiatus.
Then again, I think Victory of the Daleks has been so completely ignored by subsequent episodes, other than introducing a few human characters, that I think we can safely ignore it as well.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
But that begs the question. Why bring them back if 'nobody cares' about them? What's cool about bringing them back, then?
It becomes utterly vacuous name-dropping. And while I don't mind the occasional random mention of a creature from the Doctor's past adventures (it can be quite entertaining spotting them, especially now that I've gone back to watch the 1960s stuff), actually depicting those creatures on screen requires more effort than that.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Why bring them back if 'nobody cares' about them? What's cool about bringing them back, then? It becomes utterly vacuous name-dropping. And while I don't mind the occasional random mention of a creature from the Doctor's past adventures (it can be quite entertaining spotting them, especially now that I've gone back to watch the 1960s stuff), actually depicting those creatures on screen requires more effort than that.
Not disputing any of that. From what I can understand, the Ice Warriors were always kind of "meh" monsters anyway (seriously, "Ice Warrior?" What kind of shit name is that? You couldn't even call them by, say, their species name, or, I don't know, whatever they call themselves? It's like coming across human soldiers in space and deciding that they should be called "Space Soldiers," rather than humans), so you get two options: continue in the tradition of mediocrity (WHY?), or completely reinvent the mythos so that they're actually something. If you do the latter, though (starting with giving them a proper name), are they still Ice Warriors? Will you hack off the rabid fanboys who want them to be the Big Dumb Monsters they remember? Do we really have the right writer in charge of making them into Distinct Things? I know there were hints in Waters of Mars that the IW's might have something to do with the pathogen that does nasty things to people, but do we really want that one to be explained to death? Really, is there anything we gain, besides nostalgia, over introducing a new monster, one that might fit our modern ethos and fears?
Come to think of it, where's our era's monster, the one that symbolizes every terror of our time? Of all the new monsters, only the Judoon and Angels stand out—and the former's not really all that scary, just a shockingly literal and single-minded interstellar UN peacekeeping force. Perhaps the angels at their best are symbolic of our contemporary fear of the terrorist among us, the invisible, deadly enemy who can never be destroyed by even the strongest of armies, that we think we defend against by constant surveillance and vigilance, but that misses the point, I think; it may be that our constant watching is never enough to defeat those who wish us harm, and, indeed, may be itself harmful.
So maybe there could be something cool to be done with the IW's. Hey, that unknown, intelligent pathogen from Waters makes a great enemy in our age of AIDS and drug-resistent staph and TB. Probably makes a better antagonist than the IW's themselves. I'm not that optimistic, but it could happen. Still, there's any number of classic monsters they could have dug up (the Mara, anyone? What's more perennially terrifying than the evil that lurks and hides in the back corners of even the purest mind?) that don't have the baggage of being pretty lousy the last four times they got used.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You might have said that before I got partway through Season 4...
Well I was just thinking of reviews for the Troughton Cyberstories. But if you're offering ...
The Tomb of the Cybermen on the weekend. Completely unimpressed. Maybe it's just because they were moving rather than being reconstructed, but some of the acting was TERRIBLE. It was also rather racist and the overall plot was lacking sense. One of the worst stories in a while.
Tell it like it is, orfeo! It's far from being one of my favourites - I think Troughton is the only thing worth watching in it. I really think the show had a big problem with the Cybermen after The Tenth Planet, and to an extent they just became generic villains. Their only unique points were their desire to convert rather than destroy, and occasionally their struggle to survive when faced with extinction. I don't think either of these points has been played as strongly as it could be.
As to the Ice Warriors, they too were in danger of becoming generic villains until The Curse of Peladon, where the twist was that they were good guys. But they're a complex race, with a strong class structure, a warrior ethic, and a sense of honour. Not unlike the Sontarans in some ways, although I think Robert Holmes always intended the Sontarans to be a satire on that sort of mentality. I hope Mark Gatiss honours the Ice Warriors' history.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The Tomb of the Cybermen on the weekend. Completely unimpressed.
Tell it like it is, orfeo! It's far from being one of my favourites - I think Troughton is the only thing
worth watching in it.
Both Victoria and Jamie have good moments in it. And Troughton is good enough to almost carry the whole thing. (And Matt Smith based his characterisation of the Doctor off it, so what more do you need?)
The script gets off to a bad start when it has the Doctor let the archaeologists into the tomb. Why? The obvious explanation is that the Doctor wants to find out himself, but the script writers want to present that as misguided yet don't want to depict the Doctor as flawed himself. This basically leaves the archaeologists with no meaningful goals and nothing to do except to get themselves killed, and the general pointlessness infects everybody else including the cybermen.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I enjoyed the Doctor, I enjoyed Victoria, in terms of scripted one-liners. I don't really see Frazer Hines/Jamie as very good entertainment much of the time (I probably dislike him for displacing the far cuter Ben, for starters). I didn't think his delivery was very good in Tomb.
It was some of the guest cast that I really hoped would be killed off, though. The over-hysterical bloke was thankfully dispatched, but alas, the rocket pilot survived through the entire story, delivering his lines with all the grace of a spray can.
The Moonbase might not be an out-and-out classic, either, but I thought it was considerably better than this one.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
While I'm living so far in the past, I think it's worth saying that I thought the script of The Power of the Daleks was wonderful and it went to the top of the list of lost stories that I would really love to see being recovered.
Sadly, I also believe it's considered one of the ones least likely to be recovered, due to a lack of overseas sales and hence fewer circulating copies to begin with.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
While I'm living so far in the past, I think it's worth saying that I thought the script of The Power of the Daleks was wonderful and it went to the top of the list of lost stories that I would really love to see being recovered.
Even as a reconstruction it makes Victory of the Daleks seem pointless.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
As to the Ice Warriors, they too were in danger of becoming generic villains until The Curse of Peladon, where the twist was that they were good guys. But they're a complex race, with a strong class structure, a warrior ethic, and a sense of honour.
Speaking of complex race with class structure, warrior ethic and sense of honour, there are the Draconians. Allegedly at one point in history they control half the galaxy (with Earth controlling the other half). Yet we have only seen them once, IIRC. You'd think a race that powerful would show up a bit more frequently.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
While I'm living so far in the past, I think it's worth saying that I thought the script of The Power of the Daleks was wonderful and it went to the top of the list of lost stories that I would really love to see being recovered.
Even as a reconstruction it makes Victory of the Daleks seem pointless.
Absolutely. It (Victory, that is) was bad enough as a clumsy execution of a potentially interesting basic idea, overstuffed with childish gimmicks. To discover that it's first half is also a ripoff of a much better executed version of the same basic idea from 40 years earlier just makes it worse.
Which scarcely seems possible given I already thought it was one of the worst episodes of the new series. But yes, it turns out that they took one of the best stories, in my opinion, of the early seasons of the show as inspiration, and transformed it into crud.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
especially now that I've gone back to watch the 1960s stuff
How far have you got?
I'm on season two of the First Doctor, currently on the Web Planet. Unfortunately. I'm enjoying the early episodes, but this one is heavy going.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Just into season 5, now.
Delayed by my reluctance to watch the Loose Cannon reconstruction of The Abominable Snowmen on Youtube, I want it on my television...
The Web Planet is strange. But I've seen it argued that it's supposed to be.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
The Web Planet is totally bonkers. I think I'm right in saying it was the first story in which the TARDIS crew were the only human-looking characters in the story. (I know the Menoptera have two arms and two legs, but they also have wings and compound eyes!) Even apart from that, there's tons of experimental stuff in it which breaks a lot of science fiction conventions at the time, such as the tendency to have recognisable environments and sympathetic characters. The only convention really allowed in the story is that the Optera and Menoptera speak English. It's notable that the Zarbi don't, and that therefore the audience haven't a clue what they may or may not be saying. (It's a pity that they're made so stupid, which allows us to suspect that we're not missing much in not being able to understand them.)
In many ways, too, it has the feel of fantasy rather than science fiction. Its surreal look and stylised language are unique in Doctor Who up to that point.
Obviously, it over-reaches itself massively. There's no way you could do what the writer wanted to do in the mid 60s, on television, with a tiny budget. This, and its ponderously slow pace, are what contribute (rightly, I think) to its poor reputation. But I'd still watch it, just for the sheer quantity of ideas.
As for The Abominable Snowmen, I only know Terrance Dicks's novelisation, which was one of my favourites when I was a kid. It's a great pity that out of this story and its sequel, only a single episode remains.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
The one with the zarbi was the first monsters/aliens Dr Who story I managed to watch all of without hiding behind the sofa!
I must have been an easily frightened child as I was about eight at the time.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
The wifeonspace blog mentions that vaseline was added to the tape to add to the effects. There is also someone billed in the credits as "Insect movement". I saw a scene yesterday where the ants were running after Ian together with that Dougal thing. Farce, and I know that Doctor Who can do farse, but I am not sure that that was deliberate.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Have you seen the notorious moment where an overenthusiastic Zarbi bumps into the tv camera and nearly knocks it over?
I saw an interview once with John Scott Martin, who appeared many times as a Dalek, but was also a Zarbi in this story. Apparently the actors could barely see out of the "costume", and he described the experience as being like walking around bent double with a small wardrobe on your back. The sacrifices those actors make for their art!
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Adventures With the Wife in Space is an entertaining read, but the other blog I'd recommend reading as you go through the stories is TARDIS Eruditorum: A Psychochronography in Blue. Don't always agree, but I like his entry on The Web Planet a lot.
Also, for somewhat drier information about what was going on behind the scenes, I find this site very useful.
I think I read that the Vaseline bit is a myth, by the way, but different sources have different views...
...also, I was under the distinct impression that the only thing the Zarbi say is the alien equivalent of "moooo".
[ 22. February 2013, 04:50: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
With regard to the Ice Warriors, ISTR hearing that one of the "lost" stories of the cancelled season 27 would have them, but in a context of a sub-polar environment which would allow them to move at speed - the explanation for the slow movement of the Troughton era being that the temperatures they were operating in was too high for them.
Maybe a bit of overthinking but a good explanation.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
The TARDIS Eruditorum is an excellent commentary, though sometimes it gets a bit weird. I think the original concept was to look at each story in its original social context, and to try and look at it as viewers would have looked at it first time round. So, for instance, he makes the point forcefully that Hartnell wasn't "the first Doctor" - he was the Doctor, because until The Tenth Planet, what viewer would ever have suspected that changing the lead actor might not only be possible, but would become one of the show's most distinctive features?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
Thanks for the links.
I have also now heard that the vaseline story isn't true.
I finished that episode last night. It was good in terms of the direction and effects, but was let down by the script. That, and I can't work out what role those armadillo-moving-like-they-were-wearing-sleeping-bags things played in the plot, other than to enable Ian to get out of that hole he fell down. It's not as if Ian came up after all that tunneling, climbing and death of that armadillo thing towards that spider thing to go "Dan ah!" and kill it. No, he came up, made his appearance to the others known, and started to fall down and played no further role.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Thanks for the links.
I have also now heard that the vaseline story isn't true.
I finished that episode last night. It was good in terms of the direction and effects, but was let down by the script. That, and I can't work out what role those armadillo-moving-like-they-were-wearing-sleeping-bags things played in the plot, other than to enable Ian to get out of that hole he fell down. It's not as if Ian came up after all that tunneling, climbing and death of that armadillo thing towards that spider thing to go "Dan ah!" and kill it. No, he came up, made his appearance to the others known, and started to fall down and played no further role.
It's a long time since I read it, but I think the novelisation handles this better than the tv version (and the special effects are better ). IIRC, Strutton's idea was that the Optera (called "pygmy Menoptera" in the book) were Menoptera who had taken to living underground when the Animus invaded Vortis. They'd lost their wings and almost reverted to a larval form. Part of the denoument of the book is the reconciliation of all the species on Vortis - Optera, Menoptera, Zarbi and venom grubs - who will all have a part in the rebuilding of their planet.
Still, you're through it! The next story, The Crusade, is widely regarded as a classic. Two episodes still exist, the other two can be got as reconstructions. The excellent Julian Glover plays King Richard, and it's written by David Whitaker, who was also respnsible for both of Troughton's Dalek stories.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
Thanks for that. That makes sense.
I'm watching all the episodes online. So far I've managed with all of them, apart from half of an episode of Dalek invasion of earth. Well I say all, I watched Marco Polo with photos (though there's an animation version of the first episode online), as I did with part of "The reign of terror".
Unlike the wifeinspace reviewers, I liked "The edge of destruction", by the way. For me it brought a nice psychological aspect and dark element to it, and the directions were good. It seemed more like the Doctor Who I remembered of the 1980s.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Still, you're through it! The next story, The Crusade, is widely regarded as a classic. Two episodes still exist, the other two can be got as reconstructions. The excellent Julian Glover plays King Richard, and it's written by David Whitaker, who was also respnsible for both of Troughton's Dalek stories.
The Crusade was the first Target novelisation I had as a kid, though I'd never seen William Hartnell except in The Three Doctors. I was always keen on Robin Hood and Richard I stories, so it was ideal - and its sympathetic view of Saladin was ahead of anything I had read before. I can't imagine the original TV version.
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Be prepared, Rosa, that once you get to Season 3 you're going to hit lots of missing episodes and entire missing stories. Seasons 4 and 5 are especially badly affected.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Meanhile, back in the world of NuWho. Jenna-Louise Coleman, on last Friday's The Last Leg on Channel 4 revealed that the new series (or second part of the series) is getting well on the way to finished.
Two click rule observed, but not work safe due to strong language.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
I finished "Space museum" yesterday.
Here is my analysis (just a bit of fun*):
The Moroks have taken over the planet of the Xerons and have made the latter slaves. The Moroks are dressed in white while the Xerons are dressed in black. This is obviously a before-its-time critique of slavery started by Europeans.
However, there's more to it than that. The black people (let's call them that) can only liberate themselves through the inspiration of people not like them. Note how the key instigator of the revolution, Vicky is wearing light colours.
Note also that the Xerons only found the Tardis team (for want of a better phrase) through finding the black thread. Barbara had to shed her "blackness" (her cardigan) in order to enable the team to progress. Same as Ian, who lost his black/dark button.
Barbara and Ian, to the needed degree had to embrace their whiteness and therefore lack of common humanity with the Xerons in order to help them. Bear in mind that Malcolm X had been assassinated just a few months before these episodes were made.
The Space Museum episodes therefore lampoon white people who have suddenly become anti-racist, but really hold unconscious deep racist beliefs that blacks are objects, objects who need the help of white people. (Only the Doctor wears both white and black, and largely preoccupies himself with the slave-holders.)
Another matter. There's a question that the Tardis team don't ask. In fact, it's such an obvious question that, that it wasn't asked means that the writer of the episodes leave the asking of the question to the viewers: Where are the female Moroks and Xerons?
Bear in mind that the Moroks are bored. This presumes they are missing women. That presumes that they are heterosexual. By leaving the question unasked, the writers leave the viewers in these pre-decriminalisation of homosexuality days to the following conclusion: It would be better for the Moroks if they were to be gay. Note how the head Morok said that he would be "just as bored" back on his home planet. He's totally in the closet, and even in a more safer environment away from home, he can't come out.
This shows that the Doctor Who series, even then was not about a science-fiction programme, rather an instrument of the Leftist Lobby™.
That many of the writers were from Wales and BBC Wales now does the programme shows that us Welsh are intrinsically out for Leftist domination!
Bwahahahaha!
* Or maybe not so much fun.
[ 28. February 2013, 12:55: Message edited by: Rosa Winkel ]
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo: [in hell]
...
And in 1967 it was still apparently perfectly acceptable to air a story (Tomb of the Cybermen) where it's rather obvious that all the nasty characters have coloured skin and all the good characters are white. This is the same show that in some other stories (The War Machines from 1966 stands out) was tremendously keen to show how hip and aligned with youth culture it was.
Are they?
That explains the comments upthread, which seemed odd referring only to Toberman*.
Ah ok, Mr Silly is Cyprian and in colour does look different to how I imagined.
I can't see anything about Mrs Silly (Shirley Cooklin)
*not that that alone isn't disappointingly indicative of racist attitudes.
[ 28. February 2013, 17:34: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Rosa Winkel: I don't think I've ever seen such a quantity of sustained positivity towards The Space Museum. Brilliant! Thank you. (I might even watch it now - I never even finished the novelisation.)
Jay-Emm: Yes, The Tomb of the Cybermen is appallingly racist, and in that casual "so what? We know foreigners are all bad eggs" kind of way that was shockingly common in the 60s and even the 70s. What's perhaps especially shocking is that there isn't anything in the plot that requires Kaftan and Klieg to be "foreign". If they'd had pale skins and Birmingham accents the plot would not have been affected one jot. It is blatantly obvious that, when they're revealed as the bad guys, the audience are meant to say, "Well didn't I say so? Foreigners!" It's stomach-turning.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Kaftan and Klieg to be "foreign". If they'd had pale skins and Birmingham accents.
That's what I'd missed (that and the qb tag). As far as I could tell in B&W they do have pale skin. Even knowing, it's quite hard to see.
Though once on the secret, you can start to see how what I saw as 'waspy social darwinist with nazi overtones' was actually (the racist) 'inscrutable oriental' theme.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Kaftan and Klieg to be "foreign". If they'd had pale skins and Birmingham accents.
That's what I'd missed (that and the qb tag). As far as I could tell in B&W they do have pale skin. Even knowing, it's quite hard to see.
Though once on the secret, you can start to see how what I saw as 'waspy social darwinist with nazi overtones' was actually (the racist) 'inscrutable oriental' theme.
I'm pretty sure the woman who plays Kaftan is wearing dark makeup - it is difficult to tell from a B&W picture - but I'm not sure about the man playing Klieg. Similarly, it sounds like she's affecting something like a South Asian accent, whereas his sounds more Eastern European and genuine. I'll do some checking when I have a moment.
The character Toberman, of course, doesn't speak, is characterised by an unthinking outlook and by great physical strength - and is black. Even in 1967, I honestly don't know how the BBC got away with it.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Rosa Winkel: I don't think I've ever seen such a quantity of sustained positivity towards The Space Museum. Brilliant! Thank you. (I might even watch it now - I never even finished the novelisation.)
I too had never heard or read an analysis of The Space Museum quite like that. It is an interesting perspective, Rosa Winkel. Thanks!
Personally, I always viewed Museum as something of a logical follow-up to The Aztecs. In Aztecs we are told repeatedly that they cannot change history--that what was done is done and traveling through history just means that they personally have knowledge to be able to avoid being caught up in it. The natural follow-up question is: what if the "history" that they know is their own?
Hence the first episode of Museum sets it up so that they learn what will happen to themselves personally and the rest of the story is them trying to change that.
Of course, in the modern series we know that it is firmly established that they can change history except of course when they can't and sometimes when they can't, they can (except, of course, when they can't). I rather miss the simplicity of Aztecs' approach: "You can't change history. Tough. Suck it up and get used to it."
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The TARDIS Eruditorum blog proposes that The Space Museum is basically young trendy mods against old stodgy middle-aged folk. Which seems quite plausible.
I can't say it makes for a terribly inspiring story, though, mainly because both sides of the 'war' are pretty pathetic.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Meanhile, back in the world of NuWho. Jenna-Louise Coleman, on last Friday's The Last Leg on Channel 4 revealed that the new series (or second part of the series) is getting well on the way to finished.
Two click rule observed, but not work safe due to strong language.
New Who, a good deed in a naughty world. Looking forward much more to that than the results of the next conclave..
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
That's what I'd missed (that and the qb tag). As far as I could tell in B&W they do have pale skin. Even knowing, it's quite hard to see.
...
I'm pretty sure the woman who plays Kaftan is wearing dark makeup - it is difficult to tell from a B&W picture - but I'm not sure about the man playing Klieg. Similarly, it sounds like she's affecting something like a South Asian accent, whereas his sounds more Eastern European and genuine. I'll do some checking when I have a moment.
The character Toberman, of course, doesn't speak, is characterised by an unthinking outlook and by great physical strength - and is black. Even in 1967, I honestly don't know how the BBC got away with it.
I looked it up yesterday, he's Cyprian and in colour he's a very bright brown.
Further he's often played the 'dodgy foreigner', which with Toberman* seems unlikely to be coincidence.
Kaftan was the producer's wife and I can't find any details.
*granted there's no reason why he couldn't have just been the best actor**. And of course he doesn't say much, but in many ways is the hero.
But he is also far to close to stereotype to not be suspicious.
**and indeed if they'd discriminated against the actor on that basis that would have been dodgy too. But it looks rather bad.
[ 01. March 2013, 19:22: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
I see 'Wife in Space' are up to a guilty pleasure of mine, The Happiness Patrol.
I'm glad she's happy.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
I'm happy you're glad, Gill H.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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