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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Catholic and Orthodox soteriology
Matt Black

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OK, I've trawled through the Catechism of the Catholic Church and I'm none the wiser. Maybe I'm looking at the question far far too much through an evangelical lens but how, in Catholic and indeed Orthodox soteriology, does one 'get saved'/ receive salvation/ get to Heaven etc? My supplemental question to this is, how do you know that you are saved? This question encompasses not just the issue of assurance (or lack therof) of salvation but also (for lack of a better way of expressing it) the question, when does one have 'enough' faith, sacraments, etc to be able to say that one is going to Heaven were one to die at that moment?

[ 27. December 2014, 18:01: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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Myrrh
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For the RCC salvation is 'getting to Heaven' and is guaranteed for all baptised not dying in mortal sin, although there is Purgatory for those dying in venial sins which although forgiven are still subject to punishment. This idea of 'getting to Heaven after death' was the common view of the majority of Christians in the West from the RCC, don't know if that still applies.

For the Orthodox salvation isn't predicated on this dichotomy of earthly life v heavenly life in spirit, salvation is in becoming God through one's own experience, to become fully human, ie. in earth. It's a heresy to say there is final judgement after death because the final judgement is when Christ returns as well as presuming to speak for the father who is the only one who knows when this is, which is a rather slippery construct, and it applies as much in the here and now for individuals as it does for the earth for the Orthodox already walk in eternity. Salvation for the Orthodox is viewed in cosmic terms since Christ has already conquered death by death and bestowed life on all by taking all from the grave with him... God is God of the living and all that.

Advent has some pages on the RCC view, for the Orthodox, <shrug>.

Myrrh

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Matt Black

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But how do you, as Orthodox, know when you've sufficiently theosised (if that is a word!)/ 'become' God?

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Myrrh
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God only knows..

..I'm waiting for the last judgement to check.

[Cool]

Myrrh

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Matt Black

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What if you don't quite 'make it'? And if you're 'not good enough' in that way, what was the point of Jesus' sacrifice?

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
This question encompasses not just the issue of assurance (or lack therof) of salvation but also (for lack of a better way of expressing it) the question, when does one have 'enough' faith, sacraments, etc to be able to say that one is going to Heaven were one to die at that moment?

I am not Roman Catholic or Orthodox, but I believe the answer is that they don't regard it as something that's easy to know. If you're worried about it you're probably ok. If you're complacent about it you might not be.

The problem with 'how do you know you are saved' for both Roman Catholics and Calvinists is that anything can be copied by self-deception. Calvinists say that you know because you have assurance. But it seems that some people think they have assurance when they aren't saved. So how do you know that you really have assurance rather than just thinking you have assurance? Any answer only throws the question back a stage.

Salvation in RC theology or Orthodox theology as I understand it isn't based on quantities of faith or sacraments. If you're a member of the church then Christ died for you. You lose salvation if you've committed mortal sins and you're unrepentant.

But really the question for RC and Orthodox isn't 'am I saved?' 'Am I saved?' is not a practical question. The practical question is 'am I doing what God wants of me now?' If you try to respond to that question then the 'am I saved' question has already sorted itself out. If you worry about the 'am I saved' question and don't worry about asking what God wants of you then the answer is probably 'no'.

It's much the same in the moral life. If you spend too much time worrying about whether you're a good person, you're probably not going about being a good person. What you want to ask is what would a good person do, and then do it.

[ 08. July 2010, 14:12: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

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Myrrh
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I "don't make it" all the time. The instruction from Christ is to become perfect as God is perfect. I'm a work in progress.

You're looking at salvation as an either/or and that's it, this is irrelevant in Orthodox thinking, we don't have a God who condemns, except as explanation for the difference between actually following Christ's instructions which is all about how we act in the world.(*) We're all already created in the image and likeness of God, and hey, we've become like God knowing the difference between good and evil..

.. or have we?

The point of Jesus's sacrifice is already achieved - to conquer death by death and on all in the tombs bestowing life. Life, from Christ's teachings, is in bringing the good out of ourselves, to perfection. It is to be that, here and now, Christianity is the practice.

Myrrh

(*)For example:

Matthew 22:31-33 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Salvation is not to be like that. Salvation is life, that is death.


M

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Gamaliel
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I'm not sure I understand the Orthodox view on this one, Matt, and I can't speak for the RCs either ... but from what I can gather from discussions with the Orthodox the question you're posing, like the whole Arminian/Calvinism thing only makes sense from a Protestant point-of-view.

From my observations, Orthodox don't seem to worry too much about who is in/who is out, who is saved and who isn't. They just get on with being Orthodox as best they can.

I've always been intrigued by a comment Andrew Walker made about a sermon given by the late Metropolitan Anthony Bloom. He once exhorted his congregation not to get all worked up about being Orthodox but to concentrate on being 'fully human.'

There's a lot in that. And I'm sure it's something non-Orthodox could learn from too.

If we use salvation as some kind of reductionist badge, 'Look at me, I'm saved ...' then I suspect we've got problems.

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New Yorker
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quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
It's a heresy to say there is final judgement after death because the final judgement is when Christ returns ...

The Orthodox do not believe in a judgment at death? If not, do they believe that the soul sleeps til the final judgment?

As an RC I believe that an individual undergoes a particular judgment upon death. That is where one's eternal destiny is established. The final judgment at the end of time is for all who have ever lived to see the final justice (and mercy) of God.

As an RC (and not a very good one most of the time) I have always thought that Catholics and Orthodox believed pretty much the same thing (with a very few exceptions) but expressed this common belief different.

For example, a Catholic might view Confession as a legal proceeding whereas an Orthodox might view it as a spiritual hospital.

As for the initial question, as a Catholic I will not know my eternal destination - sulpher or frankencense - until I am judged. By looking closely and obectively at my life I might have a reasonable or even fairly certain expectation of beholding the Beatific Vision, but to state categorically that "I am saved" as some Protestans do would be the sin of presumption. On the other hand to state categorically that "I am lost" would be the sin of dispair.

For Catholics, salvation is a life long process of cooperating with God's grace to transform our lives into conformity with Christ. To become smaller so that He might become larger. Often we fail at this. I certainly do. But we must pick ourselves up and start over. Sometimes that's hard. (I believe that the Orthodox speak of this life long process as "divinisation.")

It seems to me that many Protestants who go about asking "are you saved" seem to think that once one is saved (in their theology) that's it - nothing more is expected or, indeed, required. You can be saved at 20; become an adulterer at 25 without repentance; a murderer at 30 without repentance; etc, etc. and still go to heaven.

That does not make sense to me nor, as a Catholic, do I find that view supported by scripture or tradition.

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New Yorker
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Sorry for the double post, but the Catholic Encyclopedia at the New Advent site has a good basic summary of the Catholic view of individual salvation. You can read it here. (Scroll down to the individual salvation section.)
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Forthview
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Matt -in one way it is astonishingly simple - we are saved through the merits of the blood of Jesus Christ,poured out in sacrifice for our sins.

Jesus asks us to follow Him ,to trust in Him and to 'love God and love our neighbour as we love ourselves
Knowing that is the easy part - carrying this out,given our innate selfishness and propensity to 'sinfulness' makes it difficult.

If we believe in Jesus,trust in Him and not worry too much about things,Jesus will not let us down.

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Myrrh
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
It's a heresy to say there is final judgement after death because the final judgement is when Christ returns ...

The Orthodox do not believe in a judgment at death? If not, do they believe that the soul sleeps til the final judgment?
The concept of a judgement at death at which it is decided whether a soul gets to heaven or hell for eternity is very much a western concept. This point is called a heresy because death is not the final judgement, which is when Christ returns etc. which time only the father knows. This is why Orthodox see RCC doctrine here as a heresy. For the Orthodox Christ has already conquered death so it's not something we're particularly concerned about.


So, all the dramas about who is saved or not so loved in the West don't really have any meaning for us.

'Soul sleep until final judgement' as a doctrine isn't a concept familiar to us either, the soul is conscious and we continue to interact to some extent or other with 'the dead'... This tends to freak out a lot of western Christians, but as an RC you won't have a problem with it in principle. For us 'the dead' are still active members in our liturgy which is at each place and time one and the same, this gets complicated, but simply the liturgy isn't an expression of individual events in linear space and time, but the act of the whole Church in eternity in every individual event in linear space and time; and 'the dead' are alive in this with us.



quote:
As an RC I believe that an individual undergoes a particular judgment upon death. That is where one's eternal destiny is established. The final judgment at the end of time is for all who have ever lived to see the final justice (and mercy) of God.
Oops, I should have included that in the first reply, but since I'm here. That is exactly why it is considered a heresy. One's eternal destiny isn't decided until the final judgement according to Orthodox.


quote:
As an RC (and not a very good one most of the time) I have always thought that Catholics and Orthodox believed pretty much the same thing (with a very few exceptions) but expressed this common belief different.

For example, a Catholic might view Confession as a legal proceeding whereas an Orthodox might view it as a spiritual hospital.

There's a world of difference between the juridical theology of the RCC and the Protestants from that, and us. It's complicated, but one reason I quit such discussions was a growing irritation of being told by Orthodox that 'Catholics and Orthodox believed pretty much the same thing'. I'm not going there again.


quote:
As for the initial question, as a Catholic I will not know my eternal destination - sulpher or frankencense - until I am judged. By looking closely and obectively at my life I might have a reasonable or even fairly certain expectation of beholding the Beatific Vision, but to state categorically that "I am saved" as some Protestans do would be the sin of presumption. On the other hand to state categorically that "I am lost" would be the sin of dispair.
This Beatific Vision isn't something familiar to us either, we concentrate on becoming God here and now. The RCC has ruled this a heresy. (It makes all RCC doctrine about baptism, being free from mortal sin at death to get into heaven, etc. etc. irrelevant.)

quote:
For Catholics, salvation is a life long process of cooperating with God's grace to transform our lives into conformity with Christ. To become smaller so that He might become larger. Often we fail at this. I certainly do. But we must pick ourselves up and start over. Sometimes that's hard. (I believe that the Orthodox speak of this life long process as "divinisation.")
Again we're going into complicated waters here as you've mentioned grace.., but generally speaking the process and practice is to become God through knowing God in personal experience (being), that's the only concern Orthodox have.

quote:
It seems to me that many Protestants who go about asking "are you saved" seem to think that once one is saved (in their theology) that's it - nothing more is expected or, indeed, required. You can be saved at 20; become an adulterer at 25 without repentance; a murderer at 30 without repentance; etc, etc. and still go to heaven.
Well, I've found that much Protestant theology is so peculiar as to defy sense, as I'm about to post on another thread, but as this comes initially from RCC doctrine about God I'd have to include RCC in that, sorry, and I've had my fill of Augustine arguments so that's somewhere else I'm not going. The standard view is that RCC and Protestanism are two sides of the same coin. Neither side makes any real sense to us as the differences which appear so great between the members of the two sides and between the various denominations on one side appear to us as mere nuances on the same theme.


quote:
That does not make sense to me nor, as a Catholic, do I find that view supported by scripture or tradition.
The arguments really are irrelevant to us as we don't begin with the same premises, (which you have in common), but I have to say I do find them fascinating when they get going!


Myrrh

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Triple Tiara

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quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
I've had my fill of Augustine arguments so that's somewhere else I'm not going.

Phew! Thanks be to God and his Blessed Mother, and all the holy saints of God for that relief! [Yipee]

A simple Catholic definition would be "I am saved, I am being saved, I hope to be saved".

So it is past, present and future. Christ by his life, death and resurrection has saved us. By our co-operation with his Grace and desire to lead lives in accordance with his will, we are being saved. In the end, we hope to be saved.

It's an Anglican I read (can't remember who - may have been Geoffrey Rowell) who put it rather well in illustrative form: I am in the sea drowning. I see a lifeguard dive into the water to rescue me. So I can say "I am saved". But clearly that's not the full picture. The lifeguard reaches me and puts his arms around me and begins to swim me to the shore. Again I can say "I am saved". But in fact it's only when I finally reach the shore that I can fully say "I am saved".

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Sarah G
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I was researching this very issue last night for a sermon. Can I run my understanding past those more knowledgeable to see if it's good enough for public consumption?

From the split in 1054 onwards, the Western church developed its thinking on “salvation”, whereas the Eastern developed its thinking on “transformation”. That whereas people in the Western want to “get saved” so they can be with Christ forever, the Orthodox want to “be transformed” into the image of God to be proper stewards of the world with God forever.

Where the Western church sees things in terms of an individual perspective, the Eastern has a more universal, cosmic vision of our place in the universe. The Protestant tradition pushes “I know I'm saved by Jesus”, unlike the Orthodox, “Let God alone be the Judge”.

Now if I understand correctly, I would suggest that these perspectives are complementary rather than opposing, apart from the last part.

I found this helpful.

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Starlight
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Matt Black,

As a protestant, perhaps I can answer your questions in a way a protestant would understand. Although, bear in mind that this is my opinion of what the RCC and EOC seem to teach.

The basic paradigm, shared by both, is:
a) The convert repents of their past sins and is forgiven.
b) The convert then works toward sanctification, an ongoing process throughout which God aids them.

The widespread view is that anyone who has done 'a' and is trying for 'b' is "saved" in a Protestant sense. It is fairly similar to how most protestants would take for granted that everyone in their own church was saved. However people are discouraged from being cocky and over confident about their salvation as that could lead them to stop working toward sanctification, and is seen as presumptuous. But it is usually agreed that if anyone is worried they might not 'make it', then that very worry is proof that they will make it - that they are a person who cares enough about God and what God thinks and who is trying for sanctification. I see their position on this as somewhat analogous to how I think of "stress" itself: Too much stress is bad cos you get stressed out, but not enough stress and you're not motivated to do things.

One difference I've noticed between Orthodox and Catholics is that Orthodox often have a much stronger tendency to universalism, which seems correlated with their much stronger emphasis on the love of God toward all. Thus, if you ask an Orthodox person what their assurance of salvation is, you are quite likely to receive an answer that focuses on the love of God - ie God's desire to save them is their assurance that they will be saved.

One of the most helpful articles I've ever found on the web on Orthodox soteriology is The River of Fire. It goes much farther than official Orthodox teachings, expounding in detail a concept of salvation that is widely popular among Orthodox theologians, without being the teachings of their church per se.

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Myrrh
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Sarah G - 1054 is an artificial contruct of division, it was around the 8th Century that Orthodox began realising that RCC doctrines and Orthodox were incompatible, see Photios (Photius) and later St Mark of Ephesus. And see the River of Fire which is bog standard Orthodox - and the reason Starlight is cagey about claiming it is, is because of this artificial contruct of division, created in the 20th Century by the mutual masturbation of Constantinople and the Vatican..


Myrrh

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Starlight
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quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
And see the River of Fire which is bog standard Orthodox - and the reason Starlight is cagey about claiming it is, is because of this artificial contruct of division

Actually, no, I am cagey because the Orthodox don't tend to have an "official" definition of their soteriology in the same way that other Christian groups do, and allow for a bit more speculation within their own theologians. Whereas the RCC, by contrast, has defined all their doctrines to the nth degree in their various councils. The River of Fire article exemplifies a common viewpoint and way of thinking among many theologians (probably the majority) within Orthodoxy. However not everything it says (especially the polemic) has reached the status of "official" Orthodox dogma - it's more the status of "widely held viewpoint".
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Matt Black

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

From my observations, Orthodox don't seem to worry too much about who is in/who is out, who is saved and who isn't. They just get on with being Orthodox as best they can.

If we use salvation as some kind of reductionist badge, 'Look at me, I'm saved ...' then I suspect we've got problems.

I suppose it's more in the context of "if you were to fall under a bus today, do you know or are you comforted by where you are going?" Can me a Prot or an evo or anything you like, but I for one am not satisfied with "I don't know" as an answer; it didn't reassure me or give me comfort when I was a Catholic (and is one of the reasons I'm not now) and it doesn't now - I don't want to live my life in fear.

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Matt Black

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[Missed edit window] I find Forthview's and TT's posts more comforting...

quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
Matt Black,

As a protestant, perhaps I can answer your questions in a way a protestant would understand. Although, bear in mind that this is my opinion of what the RCC and EOC seem to teach.

The basic paradigm, shared by both, is:
a) The convert repents of their past sins and is forgiven.
b) The convert then works toward sanctification, an ongoing process throughout which God aids them.


I think there's more to it than that; infant baptism would perhaps for example fall outside that paradigm.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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3rdFooter
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Caveat: I am not Roman Catholic or Orthodox, but pretty catholic and orthodox with it.

Matt - I think you may be making something out of a terminological distinction. You, in your self professed protestantism would go under the Number 37 confident that you had been saved in your faith in the redemptive power of the crucifixion. No problem.

I think those with a more catholic view are less concerned about their individual position. When the bus comes, they go in their confidence in the all-embracing and infinite redeeming love of God. Their sustaining hope is that that love will do anything possible to redeem their situation. Text would be Romans 8:38-39. If it is possible that I have been 'saved' as in more protestant terminology, then that will have been accomplished.

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Starlight
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
The basic paradigm, shared by both, is:
a) The convert repents of their past sins and is forgiven.
b) The convert then works toward sanctification, an ongoing process throughout which God aids them.

I think there's more to it than that; infant baptism would perhaps for example fall outside that paradigm.
I believe that the sacraments are generally seen as facilitating 'a' and 'b', as part of God's supernatural aid to the believer. Baptism, communion etc contribute to 'b' above - they are part of the way God aids the convert in sanctification/deification. Roman Catholics also conceive of infant baptism as being part of 'a' as well (forgiveness of Original Sin) - the Orthodox are unwilling to say that a newborn is sinful and therefore in their system it cannot perform 'a' (but for an adult it can and does). Catholics talk about their sacraments "imparting grace" IIRC, and by 'grace' they mean the supernatural power of God working inside the believer toward sanctification.

[ 09. July 2010, 09:53: Message edited by: Starlight ]

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Gamaliel
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Matt, I know exactly where you're coming from and have a lot of sympathy but I think 3rd Footer has answered this one more eloquently than I can.

I am not complacent but neither am I cocky. If I am to be saved at all it is through the grace and love of God and not my own works or deserts.

Consequently, if the number 37 crushes me this afternoon it ain't going to be my theology which saves me - be it Protestant, RC or Orthodox - but the infinite love and mercy of Almighty God revealed in Christ Jesus.

This may not make sense but I can honestly say that just as the whole Arminian/Calvinistic debate seems increasingly irrelevant to me, so does worrying about my own state of grace and whether I'm 'in' or 'out'. That doesn't mean that I'm no longer interested in 'working out my salvation with fear and trembling' but it does mean that I can live with ambiguity.

Sadly, and I don't mean this to sound patronising or critical, ambiguity is something I find many evangelicals find it hard to handle. Hence this constant need to formalise everything, to pin it all down to definite events or experiences (my conversion, my 'baptism in the Holy Spirit', my conviction of sin or my sense of 'assurance') or to doctrines - the 'final perseverance or preservation of the saints' etc.

By extension, I would observe that this is what I find most exasperating about the posts of Enders Shadow, Johnny S, Jamat and Call Me Numpty. As much as there are nuances and differences between them they all share, it seems to me, this very 'westernised', very Protestant tendency (imbibed through juridical and very legalistic Roman models) to try and codify the guts out of everything and to pin them all down into a neat formulary.

I may be doing our RC friends a disservice there, but it strikes me that there's a very legal Latin mindset which has persisted into Reformed Christianity (of whatever stripe) and which, although providing useful tools, can lead to a certain rigidity and inflexibility.

Am I making sense?

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Myrrh
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Matt - I think Gamaliel is making sense. It's the mindset created out of the juridical relationship with God as taught from the RCC on in the West which permeates the majority spiritual view of savation here. If we feel we're constantly on trial and at any moment of lapse on our part consigned to the judgement of eternal damnation we're living in real fear. We may tweak out theology to change that to a guarantee of salvation as some Protestants have, New Yorker's gripe, but that's just creating a get out clause - the fact that it's still based on the juridical relationship with an uncompromising God remains intact.

But this isn't Christ's teaching.

None of these western theologies fit into Christ's actual teaching on the subject because of this.

If your fear comes from looking for certainty while still not having given up this idea of a juridical God, then give up this God. Christ didn't teach him.

Myrrh

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I don't want to live my life in fear.

Then don't. Trust God to keep His promises.

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mousethief

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God is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet 3:9). He gave his Son that any who trust in him will not perish (John 3:16).

What more do you need to pin down? Fear comes from overthinking salvation into a juridical system in which unless the i's are dotted just right, and the t's crossed perfectly, you go to Hell. But Jesus dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's himself. Worrying that you might have left something undone is works righteousness. Worry that you might have been predestined from eternity to perish is pointless -- if you were, then no amount of worry is going to change that, and there's nothing you can do. But then that understanding of predestination is not a universal in Christianity, and I have not encountered it in Orthodoxy at all.

What I worry about is not this, but that our Lord will say to me not, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant," but, "You suck. Good thing I died for you." Am I building with stone, or with straw? (1 Cor 3:13)

The Orthodox I know do not worry about whether they are saved. They don't "know" they are saved, in the Protestant sense of that concept, but they trust God to save them.

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Gamaliel
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Hey, Mousethief's said it better than I could, Matt Black.

Does that mean I'm headed across the Bosphorus? [Ultra confused] [Help]

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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mousethief

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Come on in, the water's fine! [Two face]

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3rdFooter
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Hey, Mousethief's said it better than I could, Matt Black.

Does that mean I'm headed across the Bosphorus? [Ultra confused] [Help]

Let's start an Anglo-Orthodox wing of the CofE.we could do with another faction.

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Lyda*Rose

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That would be soooo cool!

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Josephine

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# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I suppose it's more in the context of "if you were to fall under a bus today, do you know or are you comforted by where you are going?" Can me a Prot or an evo or anything you like, but I for one am not satisfied with "I don't know" as an answer; it didn't reassure me or give me comfort when I was a Catholic (and is one of the reasons I'm not now) and it doesn't now - I don't want to live my life in fear.

The thing is, Matt, we can't answer your question because, from our point of view, it just doesn't make sense. "Are you saved"? Yes, of course, all Creation was saved through the Incarnation and Resurrection. "But are you saved?" I don't know. What do you mean by that? "Are you going to heaven?" What's heaven except the presence of God? How could I not go to heaven? If I were to go to Hell, he would be there with me. He went there before me.

So how can we be afraid of it? Every Pascha, in every Orthodox Church, we hear the Paschal Homily of St. John Chrysostom, which concludes this way:
quote:
Let no one fear death, for the Savior's death has set us free. He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive. He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is your sting? O Hell, where is your victory? Christ is risen, and you are overthrown. Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen. Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice. Christ is risen, and life reigns. Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave. For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and dominion unto ages of ages. Amen.

And we sing "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!" We sing it, we shout it, we sing it some more. Christ is risen! Truly he is risen!

What do we have to fear? He loves us. Whatever happens to us, he's been there first. He's there with us. Nothing we can do can change that. It's impossible. That "separation from God" thing they talk about in those little tracts? It's impossible. He's omnipresent. He shares our nature. God with us. Emmanuel.

If you want to really understand us, Matt, spend Great Lent and Pascha with us next year. You'll see.

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daronmedway
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Mousethief said:

quote:
Worry that you might have been predestined from eternity to perish is pointless -- if you were, then no amount of worry is going to change that, and there's nothing you can do. But then that understanding of predestination is not a universal in Christianity, and I have not encountered it in Orthodoxy at all.
Hey, take it even further and make it true! This understanding of predestination isn't found anywhere in Christianity. You don't need to become Orthodox to avoid it; you can just stay exactly where you are.
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mousethief

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# 953

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Nobody believes double predestination? Hallelujah! It's about time.

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daronmedway
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# 3012

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I don't want to live my life in fear.

Then don't. Trust God to keep His promises.
That's not an honest reading of what Matt said. I agree with the sentiments 100% though.
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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Nobody believes double predestination? Hallelujah! It's about time.

There aren't any worried reprobates, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any reprobates.
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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Nobody believes double predestination? Hallelujah! It's about time.

There aren't any worried reprobates, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any reprobates.
So worry is proof of regeneration?

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daronmedway
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The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the scriptures are able to make you wise for salvation.

[ 10. July 2010, 06:50: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]

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Josephine

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# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the scriptures are able to make you wise for salvation.

Are you saying that no one actually believes in double predestination?

Or that the people who are predestined to hell aren't likely to believe that they are, and so aren't worried about it?

Or that worrying about your salvation is evidence that you are not predestined to damnation?

Or something else?

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the scriptures are able to make you wise for salvation.

Are you saying that no one actually believes in double predestination?

Or that the people who are predestined to hell aren't likely to believe that they are, and so aren't worried about it?

Or that worrying about your salvation is evidence that you are not predestined to damnation?

Or something else?

b & c.
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mousethief

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Hallelujah! I'm not predestined for damnation. Wait -- is there a middle category?

If anybody asks if I am certain of being saved, I'll say, "Numpty said I was. Would Numpty lie?"

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Josephine

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If that's the case, CMN, then what did you mean by this post?
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Mousethief said:

quote:
Worry that you might have been predestined from eternity to perish is pointless -- if you were, then no amount of worry is going to change that, and there's nothing you can do. But then that understanding of predestination is not a universal in Christianity, and I have not encountered it in Orthodoxy at all.
Hey, take it even further and make it true! This understanding of predestination isn't found anywhere in Christianity. You don't need to become Orthodox to avoid it; you can just stay exactly where you are.
If some Christians do believe that some people are predestined to Hell, then how can you say that this understanding of predestination isn't found anywhere in Christianity?

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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daronmedway
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John Newton says it well:

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev’d;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believ’d!

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daronmedway
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# 3012

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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
If that's the case, CMN, then what did you mean by this post?
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Mousethief said:

quote:
Worry that you might have been predestined from eternity to perish is pointless -- if you were, then no amount of worry is going to change that, and there's nothing you can do. But then that understanding of predestination is not a universal in Christianity, and I have not encountered it in Orthodoxy at all.
Hey, take it even further and make it true! This understanding of predestination isn't found anywhere in Christianity. You don't need to become Orthodox to avoid it; you can just stay exactly where you are.
If some Christians do believe that some people are predestined to Hell, then how can you say that this understanding of predestination isn't found anywhere in Christianity?
Because Mousethief said that, "Worry that you might have been predestined from eternity to perish is pointless -- if you were, then no amount of worry is going to change that, and there's nothing you can do" which isn't a fair or faithful presentation of the doctrine that he doesn't believe. It's a straw-man.
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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
If that's the case, CMN, then what did you mean by this post?
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Mousethief said:

quote:
Worry that you might have been predestined from eternity to perish is pointless -- if you were, then no amount of worry is going to change that, and there's nothing you can do. But then that understanding of predestination is not a universal in Christianity, and I have not encountered it in Orthodoxy at all.
Hey, take it even further and make it true! This understanding of predestination isn't found anywhere in Christianity. You don't need to become Orthodox to avoid it; you can just stay exactly where you are.
If some Christians do believe that some people are predestined to Hell, then how can you say that this understanding of predestination isn't found anywhere in Christianity?
Because Mousethief said that, "Worry that you might have been predestined from eternity to perish is pointless -- if you were, then no amount of worry is going to change that, and there's nothing you can do" which isn't a fair or faithful presentation of the doctrine that he doesn't believe. It's a straw-man.
I'm sorry, Numpty, but it doesn't look like a straw-man to me. But maybe I've just been misinformed about the doctrine of double predestination. If it doesn't mean that some people were predestined to perish, what does it mean?

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daronmedway
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Yes, you misunderstand the experiential component of it, probably because you've been misinformed about it more generally.
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mousethief

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I note you didn't answer the question.

It appears you are being disingenuous. I wasn't saying that the "experiential" component is "believed" by anyone -- I'm not at all sure what that would mean. I was saying there are people who believe that some people are destined to Hell. Which is true. How that feels experientially to someone is not the doctrine of double predestination, and I wasn't addressing that at all in the post you responded to. I wasn't saying, "some people believe you can be worried about your salvation and still go to hell, but Orthodox don't." I was saying, "some people you can be predestined to Hell, but Orthodox don't." I can't believe somebody as intelligent as you are could have been confused on what I was actually saying. It has the appearance that you were purposely pretending you didn't understand what I was saying so you could attack it.

Let me say it again: I am not saying anything about whether somebody who is predestined for damnation can worry about it. I'm saying there is no need to worry about it if nobody is predestined for damnation. There may also be no need to worry about it because worry proves predestination to glory. I don't know; I will take your word for that. But it has nothing to do with what I was saying.

Am I clear yet?

[ 10. July 2010, 08:19: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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Gamaliel
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Hey, this is beginning to get interesting ...

At a risk of a tangent, I've heard Orthodox people commend Newton's 'Amazing Grace' for being a fine hymn - albeit ruined sometimes by contemporary evangelical rearrangements.

But then, it's been one that's been rearranged a good number of times down the years. Rather like the Puritan take on things ... diluting away into an experiential pietism.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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mousethief

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# 953

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I can't go there with "Amazing Grace". Grace didn't appear the hour I first believed. Grace, as an energy of God, has existed from eternity, and is especially in evidence ("appeared") in the incarnation, death, resurrection, and ascension of our Lord some 2000-odd years ago. Which is what saves me. So it was there long before the hour I first believed*. It might be worthwhile to go through this hymn from an Orthodox POV, but it's late and my bed is calling. In Slavonic. [Biased]

*footnote: doesn't "prevenient grace" predate a person's conversion? or am I misunderstanding that bit of Calvinist theology?

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Fear comes from overthinking salvation into a juridical system in which unless the i's are dotted just right, and the t's crossed perfectly, you go to Hell. But Jesus dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's himself. Worrying that you might have left something undone is works righteousness.

I'm guessing this is actually some mish-mash of Protestant and Orthodox sentiments: basically twisting a false Protestant dichotomy of work vs. grace to support a false Orthodox dichotomy of judgment vs. love, and vice versa.

In truth though, the favorite Orthodox analogy (well, at least favored by Ship-Orthodox) of the Church as hospital of souls immediately cuts through the bullshit. For if a doctor is standing in front of you making a diagnosis, then there is somewhat limited value to hearing "Rejoice. There are treatments. There are double-blind studies. There are pharmaceutical companies. People can be cured." OK. Yeah. Right.

What you want to hear is something like "Well, your blood fat levels are elevated and you have high blood pressure. We need to do something about that, or you will be in serious danger of a stroke or heart attack. Let's talk about changing your diet, getting more exercise and taking some beta blockers." Now, that doctor judged your health and the life style that lead to it. He also followed some fairly clear cut rules in evaluating the situation and possible treatments. And this is perfectly fine and is not an indication that the doctor is a bad one and the medicine is ineffective. Quite to the contrary. Yes, we all know that there are doctors who lose sight of their patient over their knowledge. But still most of us will prefer Western medicine over a witch doctor.

Truth to be told though, the analogy to actual medicine works best concerning morals. Because the basis of Christian morals is natural moral law, which then gets superformed by charity. That one can draw up some clear rules is based on this natural basis, just as medicine is based on the nature of the body. Since grace does not destroy but perfect nature, these rules remain valid in general. For spiritual formation I think the analogy is less appropriate, but then people generally bitch about moral "Dos and Don'ts" anyway.

Suffice to add that McCoy's judgment "He's dead, Jim." remains entirely possible concerning the spiritual state. If you swallow a glass of cyanide, you will drop dead bodily. If you commit a mortal sin, you will drop dead spiritually. If you don't like the result, then you shouldn't do the deed. Many things in life are complicated, but this isn't. There's no point whatsoever in going on about the miracles of medicine if you are about to swallow cyanide. Unless a doctor is right there to remove the cyanide from your system, you are going to be stone cold dead and no medicine in the world is going to cure you. Similarly, if you die in mortal sin then you are going to fry in hell, i.e., remain stone cold dead spiritually. Unless you repent and confess to get the poison out of your system in time.

That Christ has come to save all does not mean that you can't doom yourself. If you believe that Christ cannot possibly say "He's dead, Jim." with finality, i.e., in a Last Judgment, then you need to read scripture a bit more (1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Rom 6:19-23, Rom 8:5-8, etc.). Truths need to be faced, not hidden, and placebo effects are real but limited, also in the spiritual realm. And frankly, if you do not have any fear of God, then you are worshiping a Love Bear idol. Love overcomes fear, and yes, it can raise us even from the nothing that we are to the Everything that He is. But love must has some fear to overcome here, because that fear is good and true. A child can love God without fear in its naivety, but we adults are not, we must become like children before God. And that means developing child-like love, not remaining in childish love.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
That Christ has come to save all does not mean that you can't doom yourself. If you believe that Christ cannot possibly say "He's dead, Jim." with finality, i.e., in a Last Judgment, then you need to read scripture a bit more (1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Rom 6:19-23, Rom 8:5-8, etc.). Truths need to be faced, not hidden, and placebo effects are real but limited, also in the spiritual realm. And frankly, if you do not have any fear of God, then you are worshiping a Love Bear idol.

I don't remember saying you can't doom yourself. People who have read me on other threads about salvation will know that I admit (sadly) that it is possible to be a "holdout" against God for all eternity. This is the reason I am not a "real" universalist. I believe God wants all to be saved, and God has done all that is required for one to be saved, but one can still reject it. God will save no-one against their will. I have maintained this quite consistently in all the time I have been on the Ship of Fools. (Indeed this is one of my major bones-to-pick with predestination: it denies free will, without which we are not humans at all.) You will not be able to find a post where I deny this. If you had asked me what my belief on this was, I would have told you honestly and forthrightly.

Placebo effects? Jesus' saving grace is a placebo? You can't mean that. What placebo are you referring to?

What is fear of God? You mean to be afraid of God the way I'm afraid of sticking a screwdriver into an electric socket? I suppose God could "zap" me like that, although everything I know about God leads me to believe this is not likely, because He loves me and wants to save me.

Well I suppose he could "zap" me to teach me a lesson about something -- which poses the question of whether or not I would know the "zap" is from God, and not just a part of the circumstances of life that God allows as part of the natural processes of this world.

But if I knew the "zap" was from God, why would it make me afraid of God? I am afraid of electrocuting myself, but I am not afraid of electricity per se. If I were, I would take myself off the grid and live with candles and (say) a gas range, wood heat, etc.

So what fear of God do you want me to have? Fear that he's a son-killing monster? I don't fear that. Fear that he might throw me into hell? That is sometimes a concern (perfect love casteth out fear but my love is far from perfect), but Numpty assures me that this means I'm saved, so the fear is obviated. What sort of fear are you referring to here?

If you mean fear of God as God, and not because of anything God might do to me (or not do to me), perhaps the better word would be "awe" or "reverence"? If you're accusing me of not having awe or reverence for God because I say that (in my best moments) I don't fear that I'm not saved, then you are equivocating on the word "fear". I do not doubt that I don't have nearly enough awe and reverence toward God. But that's not the same thing as fear of damnation, nor does fear of damnation prove one has proper awe and reverence. It's neither necessary nor sufficient.

Contrasting "childish" and "child-like" is a cute rhetorical device, but unless you explain what the difference between them is, vis-a-vis fear of God in this case, it's not a very useful or helpful one.

I don't doubt I need to read Scripture more. But I don't need you to tell me that, especially when it's based on a misunderstanding of what I was saying.

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seasick

...over the edge
# 48

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quote:
mousethief said:
*footnote: doesn't "prevenient grace" predate a person's conversion? or am I misunderstanding that bit of Calvinist theology?

Yes it does, but it's generally a feature of Arminian rather than Calvinist theology.

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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