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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Catholic and Orthodox soteriology
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
mousethief said:
*footnote: doesn't "prevenient grace" predate a person's conversion? or am I misunderstanding that bit of Calvinist theology?
Yes it does, but it's generally a feature of Arminian rather than Calvinist theology.
I stand corrected. (Was John Newton a Calvinist, or an Arminian?)
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I note you didn't answer the question.
I did. I answered b and c to josephine's original question.
quote:
I was saying there are people who believe that some people are destined to Hell.
That's part of what you were saying, yes. However, it was couched in experiential terms which I took as a misrepresentation of the doctrine. You appeared to be suggesting that a proper understanding of double predestination can result in lack of assurance of salvation, by virtue of the nature of the doctrine itself. I disagree in that I think that 1) reprobates by their very nature do not - and cannot - worry about their salvation, 2) the elect can indeed take worries and scruples about their salvation as sure evidence that they are in fact elect.
quote:
How that feels experientially to someone is not the doctrine of double predestination, and I wasn't addressing that at all in the post you responded to. I wasn't saying, "some people believe you can be worried about your salvation and still go to hell, but Orthodox don't." I was saying, "some people you can be predestined to Hell, but Orthodox don't."
That's how it read to me. If I read you incorrectly, I apologise.
quote:
I can't believe somebody as intelligent as you are could have been confused on what I was actually saying. It has the appearance that you were purposely pretending you didn't understand what I was saying so you could attack it.
No, that's not true.
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Let me say it again: I am not saying anything about whether somebody who is predestined for damnation can worry about it.
OK.
quote:
I'm saying there is no need to worry about it if nobody is predestined for damnation.
True.
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There may also be no need to worry about it because worry proves predestination to glory. I don't know; I will take your word for that. But it has nothing to do with what I was saying.
I think it does. Reprobate is a very big word, like the word heretic and apostate.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I note you didn't answer the question.[/QB
I did. I answered b and c to josephine's original question.
quote:
It appears you are being disingenuous. I wasn't saying that the "experiential" component is "believed" by anyone -- I'm not at all sure what that would mean. I was saying there are people who believe that some people are destined to Hell.
That's part of what you were saying, yes. However, it was couched in experiential terms which misrepresent the doctrine. You suggested that a proper understanding of double predestination can result in lack of assurance of salvation, by virtue of the nature of the doctrine itself. I disagree in that I think that 1) reprobates by their very nature do not - and cannot - worry about their salvation, 2) the elect can indeed take worries and scruples about their salvation as sure evidence that they are in fact elect.
quote:
How that feels experientially to someone is not the doctrine of double predestination, and I wasn't addressing that at all in the post you responded to. I wasn't saying, "some people believe you can be worried about your salvation and still go to hell, but Orthodox don't." I was saying, "some people you can be predestined to Hell, but Orthodox don't."
That's how it read to me. If I read you incorrectly, I apologise.
quote:
I can't believe somebody as intelligent as you are could have been confused on what I was actually saying. It has the appearance that you were purposely pretending you didn't understand what I was saying so you could attack it.
No, that's not true.
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Let me say it again: I am not saying anything about whether somebody who is predestined for damnation can worry about it.
That's how it read to me.
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I'm saying there is no need to worry about it if nobody is predestined for damnation.
True.
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Am I clear yet?
Yes.
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Is there an echo in that last post? Sorry about that. Not sure how that happened.
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I can't go there with "Amazing Grace". Grace didn't appear the hour I first believed.
That's not what Newton is saying. He is remembering how precious grace appeared to him when he was converted. In other words he is recounting a change in his spiritual perceptions concerning the grace that has existed from eternity.
He is recounting the conscious experiential moment when eternal grace became a precious treasure to him. He is not saying that his perceptions conferred value on grace either; he is saying that his affections were stirred and fired by a Spirit-inspired apprehension of the value of God's grace.
One of the marks of evangelicalism is conversionism. Newton is describing an experiential aspect of his conversion. In this case it concerns a shift in his understanding concerning grace. As an unbeliever grace was a meaningless concept; at his conversion grace became a pearl of great price to him.
[ 10. July 2010, 09:23: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
You appeared to be suggesting that a proper understanding of double predestination can result in lack of assurance of salvation, by virtue of the nature of the doctrine itself. I disagree in that I think that 1) reprobates by their very nature do not - and cannot - worry about their salvation, 2) the elect can indeed take worries and scruples about their salvation as sure evidence that they are in fact elect.
Perhaps you could weigh-in over in the What is so bad about 'Works Righteousness'? thread where a few of us have looked at how Calvinism indeed fails to deliver the "assurance of salvation" that it claims is important.
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
You appeared to be suggesting that a proper understanding of double predestination can result in lack of assurance of salvation, by virtue of the nature of the doctrine itself. I disagree in that I think that 1) reprobates by their very nature do not - and cannot - worry about their salvation, 2) the elect can indeed take worries and scruples about their salvation as sure evidence that they are in fact elect.
And you've got Bible passages that, in a clear and straightforward reading, would back up those two claims? I can't imagine.
There seems to be something decidedly unwholesome about a doctrine that says:
1. Some people are predestined to heaven, and some people are predestined to hell.
2. I sometimes worry about which group I'm in.
3. That worry is actually a good thing, because it proves that I'm going to heaven.
4. People who don't worry about whether they're going to heaven or hell because they don't believe like I do are the ones who are going to hell.
Maybe I'm still misunderstanding you. I hope I am, because that line of reasoning seems to me to be utterly foreign to the Gospel of Christ. Trying to figure out whether I get to go to heaven or not is bad enough. Trying to figure out if those people over there are going to go to heaven is even worse. When Peter himself asked Jesus about John's fate, Jesus told him it was none of his business.
John had his own master before whom he would stand or fall. So do the rest of us. You don't get a vote.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Placebo effects? Jesus' saving grace is a placebo? You can't mean that. What placebo are you referring to?
Grace is no placebo. To bandy grace about certainly can be. It works, mind you, to an extent - just like placebo. But actual grace is uncomfortably concrete and practical, like for example the sacrament of confession.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What is fear of God? You mean to be afraid of God the way I'm afraid of sticking a screwdriver into an electric socket?
Well, talk to Uzzah about that... (1 Chr 13:9-10).
No, the fear of God is stunned awe with a serious bite. [D]o not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt 10:28) People like to stick to the awe alone, turning God into something merely impressive, like a sunset over the Grand Canyon. But that's not it. Again, love has a job to do here. Nobody needs love to get over sunset awe.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well I suppose he could "zap" me to teach me a lesson about something -- which poses the question of whether or not I would know the "zap" is from God, and not just a part of the circumstances of life that God allows as part of the natural processes of this world.
Interesting distinction. I don't think that it is valid.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If you're accusing me of not having awe or reverence for God because I say that (in my best moments) I don't fear that I'm not saved, then you are equivocating on the word "fear".
First, except for the very first paragraph, I was not talking to you, mousethief, but to you, generic "you". Second, my statements were framed as "if" clauses. He who does not meet the condition need not worry about the consequence. Third, there is a fine line between trust and presumption. On which side you (mousethief) stand, only you can guess and God can know.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Contrasting "childish" and "child-like" is a cute rhetorical device, but unless you explain what the difference between them is, vis-a-vis fear of God in this case, it's not a very useful or helpful one.
Well, a child may believe that God is a nice old man. An adult who believes that, and therefore has no fear of God, remains childish. People are happy enough to drop the "old" and the "man", but often not the "nice". That is still childish. God is not nice. Nowhere in the bible is the slightest indication for that. Nowhere in our lives do we find evidence for that. The Church has not taught that. Yet it is comforting to think so, and people childishly do. But seeing that God is not nice with all the mental abilities of an adult, and then overcoming fear of God with loving trust, that is a state I would call child-like. There is nothing false and inappropriate then.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
You appeared to be suggesting that a proper understanding of double predestination can result in lack of assurance of salvation, by virtue of the nature of the doctrine itself. I disagree in that I think that 1) reprobates by their very nature do not - and cannot - worry about their salvation, 2) the elect can indeed take worries and scruples about their salvation as sure evidence that they are in fact elect.
And you've got Bible passages that, in a clear and straightforward reading, would back up those two claims? I can't imagine.
Romans 3:9-18 and Romans 7:21-24.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
The opposite of nice is nasty. If God is not nice He must be a Calvinist.
I don't know about whether God is "nice" -- "nice" has so many shades of meaning, even in a perfunctory dictionary like merriam-webster (online), it's hard to know which one you're rejecting. Indeed I'm not sure I would apply any of the synonyms in the definition to God. At which point I wonder why you thought I would.
God is love. What is the biblical description of love? It's longsuffering, kind, doesn't envy, isn't vain, bears, hopes, believes, and endures all things. Do none of these apply to God? If not please explain why. "Longsuffering" is well attested in the Psalms -- consider 103 (MT numbering -- not sure if LXX is the same at this point). I think your view of God is very much predicated on your belief in a juridical model of atonement.
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
You're going to have to do some explication there, Numpty. I don't see in either passage the idea that "reprobates by their very nature do not - and cannot - worry about their salvation," nor do I see anything that says that "the elect can indeed take worries and scruples about their salvation as sure evidence that they are in fact elect."
Here's the passage from Romans 3:
quote:
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
And here's the one from Romans 7:
quote:
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
I've read what you said, and the passages that you cited, and I don't see how you can get from the passages to your assertions. Perhaps you can fill in the gaps that come between them.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
No, I don't think I want to take you up on this offer. I think that the passages are self-explanitory and I don't have the time to explain them to you. Perhaps you could ask your husband or perhaps your priest if it's that important.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I too think it's bogus, so I can't explain it. I doubt our priest is a Calvinist either.
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otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
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Posted
If St Paul was so certain of the doctrine of assurance, why did he worry "lest having preached to others, he himself might be a castaway? (1Cor. 9:27.)
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
My belief that God is entirely love, and that what we experience as wrath, judgement etc. are in fact this same love, but that our position creates the different impression, does not mean that I think God is exactly nice. In our terms, almost anything can be preferable to love, but God is, and God is love.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
And to return to the original question, as I understand it there is no such thing as a catholic soteriology, because there is no individual salvation. We are in relationship, with each other and with God. We are bound to God by his grace through the sacraments, and as we live, so we work out how to live closer to God. To that extent, I suppose you could see catholic soteriology as being a question of process, but I'm not sure that's meaningful.
This understanding is rather under-educated, so I'd be interested to know how others react to my exposition.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
No, I don't think I want to take you up on this offer. I think that the passages are self-explanitory and I don't have the time to explain them to you. Perhaps you could ask your husband or perhaps your priest if it's that important.
I believe that a husband is the spiritual leader in a marriage and I believe that a pastor/priest is the spiritual leader in a flock. That said, this phrase comes across rather cold. While I am a Calvinist, I have attend church with the MouseThief Familia, eaten brunch with them and find them to be reasonable, kind people. I think it IS important. That question was one that drove me into seeking answers in both the RCC & EO. I even attended catechism classes at an EO church in the South Bay (where I live) for awhile. I did walk away with a greater understanding and I felt refreshed to dive back into Sola Scriptura. I also find it distasteful when anybody thinks that there are more saved people in the Protestant churches than any of the RCC or EO ones. To my mind, there are just as many people playing the game, wearing their Sunday best, putting on a circus show of Christianity. I sadly came to that conclusion some years ago. The question Matt Black asked about salvation is one I too struggled with in outside Sola Scriptura. But I still struggle with TULIP and the double-predestination is one I have actually encountered taught. Unfortunately, it is out there and it has done a fair amount of damage, I'm afraid to peoples' perspectives of what the L is in TULIP. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) I was once in a church in Los Alamos where the very benevolent & sweet pastor spoke this during Sunday Class featuring an RC Sproul video on the topic of Election..."there will be people rejoicing in heaven over some people going to hell". He was then quiet. <crickets> <pin drop> <a sparrow crowed>. I was aghast. I literally felt the wind knocked out of me. He saw my expression and tried to move on, explained him more and made a joke out of my gasp. But I was never the same since and that was a year ago.
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Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
So, what I'm getting from the Orthodoxen is a call to re-examine the legalistic, juridical nature of must of Western soteriology, and what's coming from the Catholics is a critique of the individualism contained within evangelical soteriology. Is that a fair assessment thus far?
But it still doesn't answer my real question of "how do you know when 'enough is enough' soteriologically?" Just dismissing this as "well, you're asking the wrong question", doesn't really assist me in understanding, since this is a vital question for me and needs to be engaged with in order to help in bridging that gulf of comprehension...please?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
But it still doesn't answer my real question of "how do you know when 'enough is enough' soteriologically?"
Um, isn't the answer to that simply that Catholics and Orthodox reject the idea of "assurance of salvation"? Hence they can't know for sure when 'enough is enough'?
As this thread discussed briefly, in a tangent, Calvinism doesn't actually provide true assurance of salvation either, despite its claims to do so.
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
So you're in essence piloting blind?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Dearest duchess,
You have stated that you believe that in marriage the husband is the "spiritual leader". Does that mean that the husband is in the default position for married women, or the pastor is the default leader for the unmarried of the flock?
Or does this only apply to the "equally yoked'?
No, I'm not having a shot at you, this does have me genuinely confused (if not a little horrified)
I don't wish to stray into Dead Horse territory and your tradition and mine do differ, but please think about the prospect of Joe Bob Duggar (or worse) as your spiritual leader.
m (and no, I don't regard +++Benny as mine.
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
So you're in essence piloting blind?
It might be more analogous to believing in the existence of the aircraft and trusting the pilot.
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
Posts: 602 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
Matt, I have been thinking about your concern about 'flying blind'. In a way you are right in that I have to accept the risk that I may not be saved in the same way as I accept the risk that all my faith may be unfounded.
However, I believe (as in have faith) that no sin is too great for God to redeem the sinner. That the incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection was, is and will be* effective in my salvation and (at least) any other sinner who has faith in it. My personal status sits with Bathimaeus (i.e. blind) and calls "Jesus, son of David, have mercy on me".
I guess the question comes down to when do I, like Bartimaeus, receive my sight? Does it prefigure Revelation?
I hope this helps.
(*a single thing that is effective from any time-based view of it)
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
Posts: 602 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Dearest duchess,
You have stated that you believe that in marriage the husband is the "spiritual leader". Does that mean that the husband is in the default position for married women, or the pastor is the default leader for the unmarried of the flock?
Or does this only apply to the "equally yoked'?
No, I'm not having a shot at you, this does have me genuinely confused (if not a little horrified)
I don't wish to stray into Dead Horse territory and your tradition and mine do differ, but please think about the prospect of Joe Bob Duggar (or worse) as your spiritual leader.
m (and no, I don't regard +++Benny as mine.
m
Dear Multipara, you do have that right...I believe that the husband is the spiritual leader. It is a whole another topic that has been discussed in the past by me
see the last page please (I did also post more in previous pages here). I don't want to hijack this thread but c'mon, you know I am a bible-banging Calivnist...what's there to be shocked about?
On to the OP, I think the question Matt Black is standing in is the one I myself watch this thread with great interest on reading. I don't have the answer on that one as I did throw Bishop Kallisto's book against the wall (and Fr. Gregory happened to know him, so I had to apologize for that least it reach the author, but Fr. Gregory understood). My frustration with the justification explanation was too much for me to bear to become Orthodoxy. I though respect the religion and my friends who got caught up in the plot. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Dutchie, I did say "confused" and "a little horrified" but not "shocked"...
As a non Bible-banging non- Calvinist, I only have to look at the poor standard of the average male ( cleric or lay, Catholic, Protestanr or holy roller) to suspect the the Almighty isn't as literal-minded as Paul et al would have us believe.
Each to her own, as the old lady said when she kissed the cow...no bull.
m
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
quote:
Originally flung by Duchess:
...as I did throw Bishop Kallisto's book against the wall...
Did it stick? Its a good test for sound theology.
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
Posts: 602 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
AFAIK, the Catholic view of salvation can be expressed in three words: Being in Christ. Salvation for a Catholic is participation in the life of the triune God; in the Spirit, by Christ, to the Father. This is why the Incarnation is so important — just like in the Orthodox Church. (I have the impression that many protestants doesn't really understand what the Incarnation really is. I often hear from protestants that Christ 'came to die.' That is true, but it doesn't encompass the whole of soteriology.)
Catholic soteriology emphasizes that we are made partakers of the divine nature by the incarnation — body, soul, spirit — of the Logos. (John 1:1-3.14)
This theme of participation runs through every aspect of Catholic theology — from the sacraments through prayers. And this is also related to the question of assurance. Because in the Catholic Church the focus isn't merely on subjective feelings, the focus is on objective criteria. The most important one of these is baptism; the sacrament which (together with the Eucharist) constitutes the Church. The CCC states (bold emphasis added):
quote:
#1213: Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.”
#1257b: The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
#1259: For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
This shows us that in the Catholic Church assurance relies not on any subjective 'burning in the bosom,' but on objective criteria: (1) being baptized, and (2) being in good standing with the Church.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
And where the heck in all of this is the resurrection? We will only be "saved", whatever that may mean, when we rise with Christ. This, however, does not mean that life in God starts at some ill-defined point in the future; it starts now. We are called into it by baptism.
I came, John has Jesus saying, that they may have life and have it abundantly. Live now. Live fully - it may just lead to your being saved.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
On to the OP, I think the question Matt Black is standing in is the one I myself watch this thread with great interest on reading. I don't have the answer on that one as I did throw Bishop Kallisto's book against the wall (and Fr. Gregory happened to know him, so I had to apologize for that least it reach the author, but Fr. Gregory understood). My frustration with the justification explanation was too much for me to bear to become Orthodoxy. I though respect the religion and my friends who got caught up in the plot.
I'm just glad I wasn't standing between you and the wall. I'm sure your biceps are quite developed from that ironclad Bible you carry.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
So you're in essence piloting blind?
Yeah, I'm blind with one baby-like hand in the Father's, one in my brother Christ's, and a Bird cooing overhead. (And, yes, sometimes I get poop on my head. Who knew a Bird had a sense of humor?)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
So you're in essence piloting blind?
Yeah, I'm blind with one baby-like hand in the Father's, one in my brother Christ's, and a Bird cooing overhead. (And, yes, sometimes I get poop on my head. Who knew a Bird had a sense of humor?)
Who's got the stick?
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
Posts: 602 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I don't know. I'm blind, remember? Just toddling along the best I can, trying not to be too much of a two year old.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
foolishly poking my head in where angels fear to go--
There is such a thing as a single predestinarian position. Just thought I'd mention it.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
That's what I'm counting on: universalism. Abba! Pweeze?!! ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
But it still doesn't answer my real question of "how do you know when 'enough is enough' soteriologically?" Just dismissing this as "well, you're asking the wrong question", doesn't really assist me in understanding, since this is a vital question for me and needs to be engaged with in order to help in bridging that gulf of comprehension...please?
Lyda*Rose got it, Matt.
Do you have children? Imagine that your child is terribly sick, in danger, near death, how much does that child have to do for you to rescue him? That doesn't even come into the equation! If someone said to you, "Why are you doing that? Look at that child of yours. What did he ever do to deserve that?" You'd probably rip their head off! Deserving doesn't have anything to do with it. "Enough" doesn't have anything to do with it. That's your kid. That's all that's required.
quote:
If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”
There was a little girl my neighbor used to babysit for. She was the best-behaved little girl you've ever met. She was almost unnaturally good. My neighbor said it was because, when her parents divorced, she worried that they might divorce her. She worked very, very hard to be so good that her parents would love her and wouldn't go away from her. That was heart-breakingly sad. But it's something that, as a child of God, you don't have to worry about. God isn't going to abandon you. If you go to Hell, you'll find out that he's already been there, too, and he'll stay there with you. He's not going to leave until the place is empty.
He doesn't love you because you're good enough, and he's not going to save you because you're good enough, because you're not. He's going to save you because he loves you.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
Oops. I was talking about Lyda*Rose's post about holding God's hands -- I didn't see her most recent one until after the edit window. (Yeah, I started a post, got distracted talking to one of the boys, and didn't get around to finishing it for a while.)
I can't be a universalist, because that would deny free will. But I find it hard to imagine anyone holding out against the love of God forever. I believe that they could, but I am not certain that I believe that anyone will.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm just glad I wasn't standing between you and the wall. I'm sure your biceps are quite developed from that ironclad Bible you carry.
That's really not fair. I threw it out of frustration of hours of studying Orthodoxy and yet not finding resolution. It may be a sign of my immaturity...I dunno...it may be a sign I was not to become at that orthodoxy. But it was not slammed against you or anybody else who believes it. I wish I could say I had ironclad biceps and that I really knew the Word the way I should but I often fail in that regard. I wish you could understand but I guess I am coming off very badly.
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Duchess, I'm sorry, I wasn't saying anything negative about you, just trying (and obviously failing) to make a light-hearted joke about your throwing the book -- to show I am not offended by your not liking H.G. Bishop Ware or his book (or throwing it), or by you not wanting to be Orthodox. Please don't think I'm upset with you, or angry at you, or want to belittle you in any way. Please forgive me for coming across that way; it certainly wasn't intended. I feel terrible to have given you cause to react that way. I am really, really sorry.
I can't ask anybody to do anything but what they in their heart feel God is calling them to do -- because that's what I did when I became Orthodox. I don't dislike anybody, or think poorly of anybody, or believe God will condemn anybody, because they don't become Orthodox. If any of us is in "the wrong church" (and if it matters), God can sort it out. It's His call, not ours.
CS Lewis (through Screwtape) says God is pleased even with our stumbles when we stumble toward Him. Which is good because stumbling is about what I'm capable of at this point. Clearly.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Oops. I was talking about Lyda*Rose's post about holding God's hands -- I didn't see her most recent one until after the edit window. (Yeah, I started a post, got distracted talking to one of the boys, and didn't get around to finishing it for a while.)
I can't be a universalist, because that would deny free will. But I find it hard to imagine anyone holding out against the love of God forever. I believe that they could, but I am not certain that I believe that anyone will.
Actually my "universalism" is more along your lines, a kind of semi-universalism: Abba Father is ever and always ready to take us in his arms, whenever and wherever we get over our ignorance, pride, and stupidity in holding out against him. The glass is often too dark this side of the grave for people to experience the love of Christ. I don't think the Godhead is limited in patience and love. If the Godhead can't love better than we can, I'm not sure what the point of worshiping him would be except to do it in actual fear and wary obedience and not love.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Abba Father is ever and always ready to take us in his arms, whenever and wherever we get over our ignorance, pride, and stupidity in holding out against him.
I think that, for some of us, the hardest thing about being saved is going to be accepting the fact that people who have hurt us, or have hurt those we love, are going to be saved, too. We may say "all have sinned," but most of us are like the rich young ruler, who told Jesus, "I've kept all the laws from my youth up." Like the Pharisee, we think we're good, or if we're not good, at least we're better than the publican over there.
That pride, that particular stupidity, is I think going to be terribly difficult for some of us to get past. Learning that being united with God means being united with everyone else who is also united with God -- including that person whom we consider so far beneath us ... that's going to be hard.
In fact, it's going to be so hard that I can imagine someone saying to God, "I'm not going to come to the wedding supper if he is going to be there." In fact, for certain values of he, I can imagine myself saying that.
But the Master of the feast makes out the guest list and the seating chart. Are you willing to share a table with your ex? With the bully who terrorized you during junior high? With Pol Pot?
By taking on our human nature in the Incarnation, our Lord Jesus Christ has already united all of us to himself, and through him to each other.
It's not always a pleasant thought. Some of us are going to find it very bitter. In spite of that, I still believe that, in the end, love wins.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
That reminds me of one of the ghosts who visits Heaven in The Great Divorce. He's a rough, tough guy who in life was a mean foreman and a mean husband yet who always worked hard for a living and asked nothing of nobody. He was met by a man who had worked under him, who had gone on to murder somebody. The foreman was affronted: they sent a dirty murderer to guide him in Heaven? The guide had repented and made reconciliation with his victim. He begged forgiveness for the evil thoughts he'd had about the foreman. But the foreman would not accept him or the fact that he, the foreman, was in Heaven on any sufferance for his own sins. If that was what the place was about, he'd have none of it.
The other side of turning toward repentance is Hans Christian Andersen's classic The Girl Who Trod on a Loaf. A very different story where the saved cried for the damned instead of rejoicing in their damnation as Augustine would have it.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
So you're in essence piloting blind?
It might be more analogous to believing in the existence of the aircraft and trusting the pilot.
On reflection, I think that was extending the analogy to the extent of changing it the another one but since that's done...how does one know one's on the plane?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
How does one know whether one is on the plane? By looking out of the window? By listening to the pilot's announcements - 'This is your captain speaking ...' ('My sheep know my voice ...')?
By paying attention when the girl down the aisle goes through the bail-out and life-belt drill for the umpteenth time?
By the turbulence you feel at take-off and landing?
By enjoying the view, the inflight movie and, hopefully, the company of those sat next to you?
By believing what you have heard.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
How does one know whether one is on the plane? By looking out of the window? By listening to the pilot's announcements - 'This is your captain speaking ...' ('My sheep know my voice ...')?
By paying attention when the girl down the aisle goes through the bail-out and life-belt drill for the umpteenth time?
By the turbulence you feel at take-off and landing?
By enjoying the view, the inflight movie and, hopefully, the company of those sat next to you?
By believing what you have heard.
Nicely put Gamaliel.
Perhaps from an evangelical point of view, you heard the boarding call and went up the steps.
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
Posts: 602 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Duchess, I'm sorry, I wasn't saying anything negative about you, just trying (and obviously failing) to make a light-hearted joke about your throwing the book -- to show I am not offended by your not liking H.G. Bishop Ware or his book (or throwing it), or by you not wanting to be Orthodox. Please don't think I'm upset with you, or angry at you, or want to belittle you in any way. Please forgive me for coming across that way; it certainly wasn't intended. I feel terrible to have given you cause to react that way. I am really, really sorry.
I can't ask anybody to do anything but what they in their heart feel God is calling them to do -- because that's what I did when I became Orthodox. I don't dislike anybody, or think poorly of anybody, or believe God will condemn anybody, because they don't become Orthodox. If any of us is in "the wrong church" (and if it matters), God can sort it out. It's His call, not ours.
CS Lewis (through Screwtape) says God is pleased even with our stumbles when we stumble toward Him. Which is good because stumbling is about what I'm capable of at this point. Clearly.
Thanks MT. I think I am too often too sensitive about the subject as it is one that has infected me like a strange disease and pops up every so often. I can't stop looking higher up the candle however I am content to be here at the lower end for now if that makes sense. The good consequence is that I see Catholics and Orthodoxy as my brothers and sisters...and I don't question their faith unless they give me reason too (perhaps somebody breaking open a lightbulb in front of me and stirring up a cocktail of freebase might make me pause for a minute) much as I would a fellow Prot. This has actually caused dissension in some conversations I have had with fellow Prots. One Prot I had dinner with never talked much to me again and wrote off my faith as I refused to think that all Catholics and Orthodoxy were "not reading the bible". When I first became a born-again Christian, I would have agreed with her. So I am glad to have this experience.
Thanks for explaining. I guess I have been not as much on the ship and I forget to take things more lightly.
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I can understand where you're coming from with this one, Duchess. But I must admit, I was never tempted to throw +Kallistos Ware's books against the wall. If anything, I wanted to give the guy a hug ...
I've met him since and I didn't ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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