|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Hell: To Hell with your evil theology
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
If you don't believe the liturgy of the Roman Catholic or Coptic Church, why say it?
Those words have meaning and purpose.
If you believe that everyday actions can be prayers, are you in the habit of doing things you don't believe as prayer to God?
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
If you don't believe the liturgy of the Roman Catholic or Coptic Church, why say it?
I could quite happily say most of the liturgy of either of those churches. I don't necessarily agree with enough of their doctrines to be a member, but that's a different matter.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
If you don't believe the liturgy of the Roman Catholic or Coptic Church, why say it?
Those words have meaning and purpose.
If you believe that everyday actions can be prayers, are you in the habit of doing things you don't believe as prayer to God?
I participate in liturgies because they have meaning for me which may not be the same meaning they have for others. In fact, I'm willing to bet the members of those religions are participating the liturgies for reasons that aren't exactly like the next person in the pew.
I defy anyone to show me that there is a religion in which each person has the exact same internal faith as the next.
Not everyone--even of the same religion--is on the same page internally, and I think you know it.
Ecumenical and inter-faith experiences are very refreshing to me, but maybe not to you.
That last question is confusing and I think a bit silly--or just cranky.
sabine
[ 22. July 2010, 14:42: Message edited by: sabine ]
--------------------
"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
Most ecumenical services mean very little to me. Sure, we can all say the same liturgy with it meaning something very different to each of us. Then again, why not read something with more ambiguous meaning like long passages from Finnegan's Wake and each person can insert their own religious symbolism. It only proves that we can all come together and say stuff together. It is not proof of any actual unity. At least when we are working together on social issues we are actually working towards a common purpose.
I didn't mean the last statement flippantly either. If your actions are prayers and you have a habit of saying prayers that you don't really believe, do you do things as prayers to God that you don't actually believe?
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Sure, we can all say the same liturgy with it meaning something very different to each of us...
What makes you think that doesn't happen even in your own congregation?
I've never been to a church which didn't have a range of belief--sometimes narrow, sometimes broader but always a range. Long time members may get together and someone, reminiscing, will mention "Father X's little ways" or "Father Y's little peccadilloes". Yet while Father X or Father Y was Rector of the Parish, they probably thought the whole parish agreed with them.
Indeed, I can honestly say the liturgy does not mean the same thing to me today that it did 20 years ago--not that I take it more or less seriously, but my understanding and focus are not the same now.
--------------------
How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
and you have a habit of saying prayers that you don't really believe.....
Where did I ever mention that I say prayers I don't really believe?
I said that certain liturgies have meaning for me that they may not have for others. I also said that everyday actions may also be prayers.
Please don't put words in my mouth....
And sometimes a person may do everyday actions as prayers; sometimes not. Sometimes two people may be doing the same everyday activity, but one is doing is prayerfully, the other is not. What's the argument here?
Oh nevermind. This is going nowhere.
sabine
--------------------
"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
But don't you see, the fact that you attend all of those services, and the way you behave at them, says something of you that is not true of me, as can be gleaned from the fact that I don't do those things. I think you are interpreting "lex orendi" too narrowly. Think of it as your entire religious experience, not just how you behave at one particular time in one particular setting.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by sabine:
Oh nevermind. This is going nowhere.
Where would you want it to go?
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally Posted by sabine:
Oh nevermind. This is going nowhere.
Where would you want it to go?
By all other falling to her feet and agreeing with her, of course.
--------------------
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But don't you see, the fact that you attend all of those services, and the way you behave at them, says something of you that is not true of me, as can be gleaned from the fact that I don't do those things. I think you are interpreting "lex orendi" too narrowly. Think of it as your entire religious experience, not just how you behave at one particular time in one particular setting.
I think you make a very good point that whenever one visits a religious service outside one's religion, that is part of an over-all or entire "religious" (organized religion, that is) experience. That's what I had in mind when I mentioned how experiences outside my own religion may have meaning for me that they don't have for the people whose religious service I am attending as a guest.
However, since faith is something that is in the heart, mind, and soul--and only God can see the faith in there--I'm not sure if one's entire religious experience can provide outside observers with more than just an impression of a person's faith.
And in some cases, that impression might be very misleading.
If, for example, a person sings a hymn that contains words that s/he doesn't believe but happens to feel that the act of singing prayerfully is, in itself alone, a spiritual act, we can't automatically assume the person believes the words of the text.
In fact, I wonder if every single person singing hymns of his/her own tradition will have the kind of relationship with God that allows them to believe every word of the hymn.
That's why I am so confused about the RCC thing. It appears on paper to be a set of rules and dogma that come down from leaders. OK, fine--all religions and organizations need some sort of description.
But our interior lives are not lived on paper. And since there is no outward way to ascertain one's inward status with God, why do we rely on what is on paper as a determining factor? And then, why do we judge--based on insufficient evidence--whether or not another is a good enough member of his faith?
It seems like a lot of work poking noses into the private relationship between an individual and God.
This is a massive tangent from the OP, which is about official word from Rome on two different "grave crimes." I admit, I had a hand in starting the tangent because my experiences with RC friends and my sporadic attendance at mass with them and my intermittant attendance at Mennonite services, as well.
sabine
[ 23. July 2010, 02:48: Message edited by: sabine ]
--------------------
"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
I think you make a very good point that whenever one visits a religious service outside one's religion, that is part of an over-all or entire "religious" (organized religion, that is) experience. That's what I had in mind when I mentioned how experiences outside my own religion may have meaning for me that they don't have for the people whose religious service I am attending as a guest.
However, since faith is something that is in the heart, mind, and soul--and only God can see the faith in there--I'm not sure if one's entire religious experience can provide outside observers with more than just an impression of a person's faith.
When I was a graduate student at the University of Illinois at Chicago, we had a professor (damned if I can remember his name) who was something of a soft-boiled/vaguely new agey not-quite-deist. (Only other non-atheist in the department.) Hell of a nice guy. Anyway, I TA'd for him on a class on the philosophy of sex and love, and it was an excellent course. But one thing he could not understand was a time when he took a kind of class poll (in some other class) about religious beliefs. He said that there were people there who claimed to have religious beliefs, but also claimed that they had no effect at all on the way they lived their lives.
He asked me about this, hoping I could explain it (I was the go-to person for the department for questions about religion as seen from the inside, since I was the only self-confessed religious person in the department). I told him I really didn't know; it didn't make sense to me either.
I'm not a Skinnerian; I do think we are more than what shows from the outside. And of course, "lex orendi," the word of prayer, can include interior prayer, prayer in one's closet, family prayer times away from prying public eyes, and so forth.
But some of what we believe on the inside is going to come out on the outside, surely. Human beings are not just thinkers; like all animals we are also doers. And I think that there is a pretty strong relationship between what we think and what we do (save maybe for some people with disconnects, such as psychosis or personality disorders).
You're right that if I see a woman in church singing a hymn, that doesn't necessarily mean that she believes all the words. She could, of course. But she might not really believe them, but sing them because she loves the hymn and it reminds her of her mother, or her grandfather, or the first boy she kissed, or whatever. Or it could be that she doesn't really pay attention to the words, but just loves the melody. Or just loves to sing, regardless of what it is. Or any number of things. So it's dangerous to draw hasty conclusions from the mere fact of her singing a hymn.
It's believe it's said (I don't know if it's true) that Richard Dawkins sometimes goes to a church service and joins in the singing. Not because he believes in God but because he enjoys doing that activity, for his own reasons. We can't conclude from an external observation of his actions that he therefore is a believer. But life is a prayer, and we know from the offerings he makes at other altars (the books he writes) what his actual beliefs are.
So I think it is with most people: who we are on the inside comes out in what we do on the outside. Maybe I can't see you at church on a Sunday and deduce that you belong to that church, or believe everything it teaches, or anything. But if I look at the output of your life, the church(es) you go to, the things you write on the Ship of Fools (this is still a generic 'you'), the books you read, the magazines you subscribe to, pretty soon a picture gets built up that can't be too far wrong on what's going on inside.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
Sabine, I'm afraid I'm going to be rather less philosophical here than mousethief. But I think I'll hit at the root of our disagreement.
If a group of RCs - who belong to a Church which is constantly having to re-iterate that it believes it has no authority ordain women, and whose insistence on only ordained priests being authorised for the celebration of the Eucharist is fundamental principle - get together and have laymen and women taking on the roles excusively reserved for clerics, they are deliberately doing what the Church not only prohibits but which strikes against the very root of the Church's teaching in these central issues (the Mass and Holy Order).
Thus, it is not only my warped, making-windows-into-other-men's-souls opinion that in this case that group's "POV" is not Roman Catholic - it's a demonstrable fact.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And I think that there is a pretty strong relationship between what we think and what we do.
I couldn't agree more.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Except, of course, when we impose the possibility of a lessor punishment on a paedophile than those doing feminist thinking in the church. Clearly, we mean what we say in that instance, more than what we do. Obviously.
[ 23. July 2010, 10:07: Message edited by: Seeker963 ]
--------------------
"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But some of what we believe on the inside is going to come out on the outside, surely. Human beings are not just thinkers; like all animals we are also doers. And I think that there is a pretty strong relationship between what we think and what we do
Yes, I believe this, as well. But I have not said that there is never a relationship between what we think and what we do, just that no one can know in detail what that relationship is.
So, we may be close in mind here, maybe/maybe not.... without, of course, knowing what you are thinking at this moment ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Unfortunately, as soon as people look at behavior and start pronouncing others as not-of-the-faith, the slope gets slippery because that kind of pronouncement requires mind reading. Some people may not be of the faith in the way we want them to be or the way the leaders of the religion want them to be or the way it's always been done, but surely and especially via computer, we can't make absolute judgments about the inner life of others.
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
get together and have laymen and women taking on the roles excusively reserved for clerics, they are deliberately doing what the Church not only prohibits but which strikes against the very root of the Church's teaching in these central issues (the Mass and Holy Order).
We agree on this. But that doesn't mean that in their inner lives, they aren't believers in and sustained by other teachings of the Church. Their Catholic identity is obviously a bit edgy and not exactly like others, but it is one reason they would rather work to change-from-within through a kind of religious activism.
This will, inevitably make people uncomfortable and angry. All activism does. And since there are already people who are uncomfortable and angry with the official teachings of the RCC, my friends get it from both sides. They're used to it. And they hope for the day when the RCC is a more open and inclusive institution.
So, given that one of them has already indicated that he doesn't feel the need for me to continue to defend them on a discussion board, I will move on to other things.
Peace.
sabine
--------------------
"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
But that doesn't mean that in their inner lives, they aren't believers in and sustained by other teachings of the Church. Their Catholic identity is obviously a bit edgy and not exactly like others, but it is one reason they would rather work to change-from-within through a kind of religious activism.
This will, inevitably make people uncomfortable and angry. All activism does. And since there are already people who are uncomfortable and angry with the official teachings of the RCC, my friends get it from both sides. They're used to it. And they hope for the day when the RCC is a more open and inclusive institution.
So, given that one of them has already indicated that he doesn't feel the need for me to continue to defend them on a discussion board, I will move on to other things.
Peace.
sabine
I feel for them sabine, it must be a hard place for them.
As soon as institutions start saying 'take us as we are or leave, nothing is going to change here' they begin to ossify, I think.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
Start saying? They've always said that. The RCC used to kill people for being heretics. You act like the Church betrayed these poor people by suddenly adopting a new attitude of intolerance.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Start saying? They've always said that. The RCC used to kill people for being heretics. You act like the Church betrayed these poor people by suddenly adopting a new attitude of intolerance.
Yes, sorry - I was thinking of institutions generally. Sometime this attitude creeps up on people.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I feel for them sabine, it must be a hard place for them.
When one allows oneself to be bullied it certainly is.
Following Jesus obviously isn't easy, and being part of organized religion (even if in the RCC) doesn't guarantee it will be any easier.
quote:
As soon as institutions start saying 'take us as we are or leave, nothing is going to change here' they begin to ossify, I think.
The obnoxious kind of (neo-)con-apologist seen so frequently in virtual worlds like the Ship (but thankfully hardly ever in a real parish) might give the impression that the RCC is such an ossifying institution, but in real life the ¨take us as we are or leave¨-attitude is limited to very few people who usually have no real authority at all and are quite mistakenly taken seriously at all.
--------------------
It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
get together and have laymen and women taking on the roles excusively reserved for clerics, they are deliberately doing what the Church not only prohibits but which strikes against the very root of the Church's teaching in these central issues (the Mass and Holy Order).
We agree on this. But that doesn't mean that in their inner lives, they aren't believers in and sustained by other teachings of the Church. Their Catholic identity is obviously a bit edgy and not exactly like others, but it is one reason they would rather work to change-from-within through a kind of religious activism.
This will, inevitably make people uncomfortable and angry. All activism does.
It's not the "edgy activism" that irks me - it's the smug "We know better than the Church we claim membership of so we'll quietly do our own thing". Unless they are open and honest about what subversion they are up to - like, if their bishop knows and approves? I somehow doubt that. It's intellectually deeply dishonest and very anti-Catholic in every sense of that word - it's functionally congregationalism. How under God's good sky is this in any way compatible with being a beleiving Roman Catholic?
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
The obnoxious kind of (neo-)con-apologist seen so frequently in virtual worlds like the Ship (but thankfully hardly ever in a real parish) ...
You rang?
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
However, since faith is something that is in the heart, mind, and soul......
That's your assumption. I don't think faith is merely a matter of heart, mind and soul — it s a matter of the whole being. And as human beings we are bodily, and we are rational. The latter includes language. Language means something in its context. I could never worship in a Buddhist temple even if all they did was read cut outs from the Sermon of the Mount or bits from the Psalms. Because in that context it would mean something entirely different then in an Orthodox, Catholic or protestant setting.
In a Catholic setting the prayers means something specific; it's not just what I feel about them.
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
That's why I am so confused about the RCC thing. It appears on paper to be a set of rules and dogma that come down from leaders. OK, fine--all religions and organizations need some sort of description.
But our interior lives are not lived on paper. And since there is no outward way to ascertain one's inward status with God, why do we rely on what is on paper as a determining factor? And then, why do we judge--based on insufficient evidence--whether or not another is a good enough member of his faith?.
First; to be dogmatic is human. Chesterton put it quite succintly: "Man can be defined as an animal that makes dogmas.... Trees have no dogmas. Turnips are singularly broad-minded."
Second; you are yet again assuming that "there is no outward way to ascertain one's inward status with God." Last time I checked there is no inner and outer man; it's just man.
--------------------
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
You can't defend something merely because it's activism. Killing abortion doctors is activism. Activism by itself is a means, not an end. If the end is not justifiable, then "activism" doesn't mean squat. And if the means are illegal, immoral, or fattening, then the end isn't good enough to justify them.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
It's not the "edgy activism" that irks me - it's the smug "We know better than the Church we claim membership of so we'll quietly do our own thing".
Chesterbelloc, where do you get that these people are doing anything? From what sabine said, I thought they believe women should be ordained but haven't acted on their beliefs.
--------------------
Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
She said that some of them read the gospel and said the eucharistic prayer. That's activism. I share his feelings about activism. It is usually just more annoying than edgy.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Re RCs who choose what they follow, and non-RC who feel RC in their hearts:
To the folks who condemn them--
Many, many people think that there's far more to the RCC than the pope, the Vatican, and the hierarchy, more than many of the rules.
They feel strongly, deeply that there's Something there.
They may verbalize it as Erin did, that "Catholic spirituality is beautiful"; they may talk about following Jesus, the historical connection, the liturgy, the sense of community, the comfort of a physical service (kneeling, etc.) when mind and emotions and whatever else just aren't in it; they may not be able to verbalize it at all, let alone hold their own in a theological conversation.
But that doesn't mean that what they believe and experience isn't real.
If you kicked out all the RC who feel such, you'd lose a good chunk of the Church. If you went back in time to do it, you'd probably lose many of the RCC saints, who often didn't fit in with the Church of their day.
If the RCC took the (admittedly scary!) steps of allowing women into the priesthood and diaconate; accepting LGBT folks; taking a no-nonsense, proactive, "the civil authorities are not our enemies", tough love approach to abuse of children and other vulnerable folks; and stopped giving the world the impression that sex is, in and of itself, somehow lesser than spirituality,...
then you'd have so many people flooding into the Church that you could reopen all the closed churches, revitalize the whole RCC, and never worry about the dwindling number of priests again.
Sometimes, rules and structures can be a cage; and sometimes, they can be a marvelous structure of bones and muscles and nerves that helps you to move and live.
A lot of people, including many faithful Catholics, feel like there's a heart and a marvelous structure trapped inside that cage. Maybe they join or stay in the Church, try to get close enough to touch that Something, and hang around and wait, as Catholics have done over the millenia. Maybe they move on to another denomination or religion, keep their own kind of spirituality, or shift into agnosticism or atheism.
But they keep looking back at that Heart.
Don't try to limit what God is doing with these people.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
The obnoxious kind of (neo-)con-apologist seen so frequently in virtual worlds like the Ship (but thankfully hardly ever in a real parish) ...
You rang?
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Admitting it is the first step. There's a 12-Step meeting right down the hall. Free coffee & doughnuts.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
quote:
originally posted by Golden Key:
Many, many people think that there's far more to the RCC than the pope, the Vatican, and the hierarchy, more than many of the rules.
Indeed there are. They call themselves Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Reformed, and a plethora of other names not Roman Catholic. Roman Catholic implies communion with the Bishop of Rome and the Vatican hierarchy with all of its rules. There really isn't much else unique about it. This is fairly elementary church history.
quote:
originally posted by Golden Key:
They may verbalize it as Erin did, that "Catholic spirituality is beautiful"; they may talk about following Jesus, the historical connection, the liturgy, the sense of community, the comfort of a physical service (kneeling, etc.) when mind and emotions and whatever else just aren't in it; they may not be able to verbalize it at all, let alone hold their own in a theological conversation.
Roman Catholics don't have a monopoly on catholic spirituality, pretty liturgy, or what you call physical service. Other churches have all of those things. What other churches don't have is the Pope and the Magisterium.
quote:
originally posted by Golden Key:
If you kicked out all the RC who feel such, you'd lose a good chunk of the Church. If you went back in time to do it, you'd probably lose many of the RCC saints, who often didn't fit in with the Church of their day.
You certainly would. What's the problem?
quote:
originally posted by Golden Key:
If the RCC took the (admittedly scary!) steps of allowing women into the priesthood and diaconate; accepting LGBT folks; taking a no-nonsense, proactive, "the civil authorities are not our enemies", tough love approach to abuse of children and other vulnerable folks; and stopped giving the world the impression that sex is, in and of itself, somehow lesser than spirituality,...
then you'd have so many people flooding into the Church that you could reopen all the closed churches, revitalize the whole RCC, and never worry about the dwindling number of priests again.
You mean if the Roman Catholic Church became Aff-Cath. all of their problems would be solved. Strangely, the experience of the Anglican Communion doesn't bear that out. Unless you mean the one thing keeping the Anglican Communion from experiencing this revitalization and flood of new members and vocations is its lack of the Papacy which so many people including those calling themselves Roman Catholics don't really care that much about in the first place.
People embracing a progressive version of any form of Christianity usually say something about not wanting to leave their brain at the door. The idea is that liberal theology doesn't require you leave your brain at the door.
I call bullshit. It most certainly does.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
People embracing a progressive version of any form of Christianity usually say something about not wanting to leave their brain at the door. The idea is that liberal theology doesn't require you leave your brain at the door.
I call bullshit. It most certainly does.
Did you mean to say, Bee, that being a progressive Christian doesn't necessarily imply one is more intelligent or thoughtful?
Or are you saying that you more intelligent and thoughtful than all liberal Christians?
Zach
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
BA--
--It's nothing to do with any other church except (Roman) Catholic. (In the US, Catholic almost always means Roman. I try to remember to be more specific on the Ship; but it's an effort, and sometimes I forget.)
--For many, many people, the RCC is the face of Christianity. Rightly or wrongly, for better or for worse. So what the RCC does, both good and bad, makes an impact.
--It's nothing to do with church theory or denominations. As I said, there's Something there.
FWIW.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
What other churches don't have is the Pope and the Magisterium.
Lucky, lucky them.
--------------------
But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
|
Posted
As much as I'd like to believe that millions would flock to the RC church if their views were closer to those expressed here (and my own), I doubt that would happen.
I can see a minority huffing and puffing. Some would leave.
Some may rejoin or come from other churches.
Otherwise, I daresay it would take a long time for the RC church to be decontaminated*.
The openness towards other religions and the radical change of belief regarding the Jewish religion post Vatican II showed that there can be counter-currents to any change, in any case.
*an emotive word I know, but I was talking from the point of view of those who see some teachings within the RC church to be dodgy.
--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Admitting it is the first step. There's a 12-Step meeting right down the hall. Free coffee & doughnuts.
Don't get your hopes up too high.
Most types of addicts have at least a beginning of awareness that their addiction (f.i. to alcohol, drugs, gambling, money-making, violence, sex) may be an obstacle to their salvation.
Religious addicts are usually deeply convinced that their addiction is their salvation.
Even if you can reliably make the distinction between addiction to religion and voluntary commitment to religion/God, (and how would you even begin to do that where it concerns an Internet persona) it will still be next to impossible to get through to them.
--------------------
It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) I think I'd rather have RadWhig's unrestrained bile thanks, opawim. It's more honest and more diverting.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re RCs who choose what they follow, and non-RC who feel RC in their hearts:
To the folks who condemn them--
Many, many people think that there's far more to the RCC than the pope, the Vatican, and the hierarchy, more than many of the rules.
Yes, but it's not less, either.
--------------------
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
|
Posted
How fucking dare you, Chestebelloc.
OpaWim pisses on you and your ilk for honesty, and as far as the opinion of a non-Catholic goes, with respect it is a case of apples and oranges.
m
--------------------
quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
That's more like it, multipara. Pure, open aggression like that is much to be preferred to pseudo-psych sneering.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
People embracing a progressive version of any form of Christianity usually say something about not wanting to leave their brain at the door. The idea is that liberal theology doesn't require you leave your brain at the door.
I call bullshit. It most certainly does.
Did you mean to say, Bee, that being a progressive Christian doesn't necessarily imply one is more intelligent or thoughtful?
Or are you saying that you more intelligent and thoughtful than all liberal Christians?
Zach
Most of them are intelligent people. They just don't always apply that intelligence to making theological arguments. Arguments are based on feelings. At times, feelings are important also. However, people brag about not having to leave their brain at the door not their heart.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I call bullshit.
Why is it so important to you to lock down the RCC into a box of a size you determine? And then call bullshit on anyone who wants the sides of the box to be a little bigger?
I understand that you feel slighted about not being able to receive communion in a RC church. But I can't either, nor can many other people....and they aren't all demanding that the church be as rigid as you are.
Your constant banging on about the strictness of the "admission policy" to worship seems almost as if--since you can't participate--you must advocate for a church where very few others can either.
Churches and religions are human constructions. So I suppose humans are going to get into arguments about them. It seems to be part of the great we-want-to-worship-God experiment, but it's gone awry.
God speaks to people in different ways. Accept that, and the angst over other people's practices goes down.
sabine
[ 24. July 2010, 13:43: Message edited by: sabine ]
--------------------
"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
It's about consistency. Roman Catholic theology is Thomist. Thomas was nothing if not logical. I expect the same sort of intellectual rigor from the modern church. If the RC doesn't have a reason for who in excludes and who it includes, it's no better than a click of prissy mean girls who daily decide who is in and who is out. That's not Thomism it's Cheerleaderism.
And, the Pope should wear the triple tiara.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
God speaks to people in different ways. Accept that, and the angst over other people's practices goes down.
sabine
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally Posted by sabine:
God speaks to people in different ways. Accept that, and the angst over other people's practices goes down.
Then how do you know it's God, and not an-oversized-human-ego-projecting-itself-onto-the-universe, per quote:
Churches and religions are human constructions.
?
Unless God is merely a human construction...
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
By their fruits.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
By their fruits.
Great. Next time I see a highly-effective secular humanist charity, I'll just tell them that they're really Christians in disguise, because the Bible says so.
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally Posted by sabine:
God speaks to people in different ways. Accept that, and the angst over other people's practices goes down.
Then how do you know it's God, and not an-oversized-human-ego-projecting-itself-onto-the-universe, per quote:
Churches and religions are human constructions.
?
Unless God is merely a human construction...
Yep. You are starting to see the bullshit behind the cliches as well. Anger lead me out of fundamentalism. Boredom and frustration lead me back towards the center.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
I think I'd rather have RadWhig's unrestrained bile thanks, opawim. It's more honest and more diverting.
Obviously.
RadicalWhig dishes out harsh judgments on what you are in his perception. This being Hell he has the possibility to do so, but in the process he allows you ample leeway to not take him seriously or imagine yourself being victimized for your apparent vocation to force your personal version of RCism down the throats of your fellow RCs and the rest of the world.
You are perfectly free to prefer open aggression to an open invitation to look in the mirror, but to me any kind of aggression towards obnoxious (neo-)con apologists is a complete waste of keystrokes. They are a lot less relevant to me, and I suspect to most of the other RCs on the Ship, than they imagine, but of course they are perfectly free to pleasure themselves by imagining they are worthy of aggression.
By the way, do not expect me to be disappointed at all if I don't get through to you. That is all par for the course. It's really silly of me to waste my time on lost causes ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
--------------------
It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally Posted by sabine:
God speaks to people in different ways. Accept that, and the angst over other people's practices goes down.
Then how do you know it's God, and not an-oversized-human-ego-projecting-itself-onto-the-universe, per quote:
Churches and religions are human constructions.
?
Unless God is merely a human construction...
Yep. You are starting to see the bullshit behind the cliches as well. Anger lead me out of fundamentalism. Boredom and frustration lead me back towards the center.
Contrary to some impressions, I'm not a fundamentalist, and indeed have never been one (raised mainline protestant, PCUSA, fairly recently UMC.)
But I see a real problem in a church that doesn't have the slightest fucking clue what it's actually doing. So we make a mystery of it all, which is really a philosophical shell game. WE keep God hidden under several different categories (imminent, transcendent, mysterious, immediate, calls us, waits for us, etc.) and when one gets exposed you just shift to another definition...it gets really tiresome after a while. I don't really think much of eternal damnation but I'll be damned if I turn into a sloppy universalist that just wants to fucking bless everything in sight when my ethical sense knows damned well that there's plenty in the world not worth blessing. If it was really all that good, then I suppose we wouldn't need to fuss so much about social justice, now, would we? It'd be taken care of already. So I wish people would fucking quit pretending that they think everyone and every thing is a gift of God when they know damned well in their hearts that this isn't what they really feel. If it were the case, this board would not be necessary.
Sometimes I think I'd just call myself a radical. It means just about the same thing as fundamentalist, but the word hasn't been covered by quite as much shit.
And no, you don't have to be a homophobic gun-toting pro-life Nazi to think the Church should have some standards of behavior and ethics. Read some fucking Bonhoeffer and tell me again that every Christian who says that discipleship means more than being nice is an evil neo-imperialist twat!
ETA: Some parts of the above are obviously not directed at anyone in particular, though anyone can feel free to take them as they feel offended or convicted.
[ 24. July 2010, 15:13: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
I knew you weren't a fundamentalist. I was giving my own testimony. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I knew you weren't a fundamentalist. I was giving my own testimony.
I seem to have given some people (anteater in particular, on a Purg thread) that misunderstanding. Figured I'd make it clear before someone else tried to paint me as one.
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
By their fruits.
Great. Next time I see a highly-effective secular humanist charity, I'll just tell them that they're really Christians in disguise, because the Bible says so.
You asked: Then how do you know it's God, and not an-oversized-human-ego-projecting-itself-onto-the-universe . . .
How likely is a "highly-effective secular humanist charity" to attempt discernment over the spiritual source of their inspiration?
Your experience may be different, but where I live, it's typically Christians who wonder whether the still small voice they're listening to is really from God.
And "fruits" is how they tell.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
