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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: To Hell with your evil theology
Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014

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quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
By their fruits.

Great. Next time I see a highly-effective secular humanist charity, I'll just tell them that they're really Christians in disguise, because the Bible says so.
You asked: Then how do you know it's God, and not an-oversized-human-ego-projecting-itself-onto-the-universe . . .

How likely is a "highly-effective secular humanist charity" to attempt discernment over the spiritual source of their inspiration?

Your experience may be different, but where I live, it's typically Christians who wonder whether the still small voice they're listening to is really from God.

And "fruits" is how they tell.

So it's all up to the individual, then.

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

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quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
[Roll Eyes] I think I'd rather have RadWhig's unrestrained bile thanks, opawim. It's more honest and more diverting.

Obviously.
RadicalWhig dishes out harsh judgments on what you are in his perception. This being Hell he has the possibility to do so, but in the process he allows you ample leeway to not take him seriously or imagine yourself being victimized for your apparent vocation to force your personal version of RCism down the throats of your fellow RCs and the rest of the world.

You are perfectly free to prefer open aggression to an open invitation to look in the mirror, but to me any kind of aggression towards obnoxious (neo-)con apologists is a complete waste of keystrokes. They are a lot less relevant to me, and I suspect to most of the other RCs on the Ship, than they imagine, but of course they are perfectly free to pleasure themselves by imagining they are worthy of aggression.

By the way, do not expect me to be disappointed at all if I don't get through to you. That is all par for the course. It's really silly of me to waste my time on lost causes [Frown]

Humour me, opaWim: excactly what is it on this thread that has rattled you so much as to make me the unworthy recipient of such sanctimonious, passive-agressive arm-waving? I'm genuinely bemused.

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
By their fruits.

Great. Next time I see a highly-effective secular humanist charity, I'll just tell them that they're really Christians in disguise, because the Bible says so.
You asked: Then how do you know it's God, and not an-oversized-human-ego-projecting-itself-onto-the-universe . . .

How likely is a "highly-effective secular humanist charity" to attempt discernment over the spiritual source of their inspiration?

Your experience may be different, but where I live, it's typically Christians who wonder whether the still small voice they're listening to is really from God.

And "fruits" is how they tell.

So it's all up to the individual, then.
Who, other than God, do you think should decide?

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
By their fruits.

Great. Next time I see a highly-effective secular humanist charity, I'll just tell them that they're really Christians in disguise, because the Bible says so.
You asked: Then how do you know it's God, and not an-oversized-human-ego-projecting-itself-onto-the-universe . . .

How likely is a "highly-effective secular humanist charity" to attempt discernment over the spiritual source of their inspiration?

Your experience may be different, but where I live, it's typically Christians who wonder whether the still small voice they're listening to is really from God.

And "fruits" is how they tell.

So it's all up to the individual, then.
Who, other than God, do you think should decide?
The Church as a community of individual believers?

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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By consensus or majority vote?

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
By consensus or majority vote?

I lean toward consensus. I'm also a big fan of voluntarism. People should be free to "vote with their feet."

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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That sounds about right. [Smile]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

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What community of believers?

the local church

the diocese/synod/conference

the national church

the worldwide body of a particular church

all Christians

Do the saints of the past get a vote?

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
What community of believers?

the local church

the diocese/synod/conference

the national church

the worldwide body of a particular church

all Christians

Do the saints of the past get a vote?

And that's where it gets complicated, and where I'm glad I'm not a Pope. It really must be an impossible task.

I think the happy medium is somewhere in the Methodist approach of having a centralized "Conference" for pastors and appointed folks to make decisions, but leaving most of the action up to the local church, all of this grounded in tradition. I'm not big on worldwide bodies and I'm not big on leaving everything up to each congregation.

But again, I'm not a Pope and have no interest in the job.

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

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It is the belief among a fringe movement of the religious right that the US Constitution is divinely inspired. Most of them are LDS. I believe the idea is most commonly associated with Cleon Skousen whose book The 5,000 Year Leap inspires Glenn Beck and the like.

The US Constitution inspired? That's just silly.

Nevertheless, you suggest the polity of the UMC as the way to go. Let's see. You have a national church. The national church consists of three bodies. General Conference which is a legislative body composed of clergy and laity makes decisions for the UMC contained in The Book of Discipline. Next, we have a Council of Bishops responsible for enforcing the decisions of General Conference and representing the church in ecumenical relations. Lastly, we have a Judicial Council of 9 people charged with deciding questions of constitutionality. I'll admit this system does seem familiar. Where does it come from? Acts? The early church? Actually, it's the form of government established by the United States Constitution. At the regional level, you have a Bishop appointing District Superintendents and meeting with them in something called a Cabinet. Where did that term arise?

UMC isn't alone in borrowing from the Constitution. TEC has regional bodies sending representatives to a bicameral legislature. Point is we have national churches based on our own form of government deciding what the Holy Spirit wants us to do. Unless we believe the US Constitution is an inspired document, we might question how it is such a system is equipped to make decisions that in some cases are contrary to the tradition of the church and the understanding of other Christians in the world.

Now, I don't have an answer either. I would feel better if we had some way of making decisions more rooted in Christian scripture and tradition than US history and tradition. Given our current way of doing things, it is hypocrisy nearly every time a mainline church utters a word against nationalism.

--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014

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I was thinking of the 18th-19th century Methodists with circuit riders based on a system that developed under Wesley, which you can trace back to England, having as such merely a tangential relationship to US government.

The 20th century UMC is a completely different can of worms.

ETA: I think church polity is better mission-driven. Paul was certainly itinerant. The early church clearly met in councils on a regular basis to sort things out and touch base with each other. And practically, where did the idea of having "overseers" come from?

[ 25. July 2010, 01:01: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
I'll be damned if I turn into a sloppy universalist that just wants to fucking bless everything in sight when my ethical sense knows damned well that there's plenty in the world not worth blessing.

Odd that. My reading of Christianity is that it's the things that aren't worth blessing that most need to be blessed. Christ didn't come to reward the Holy, He came to redeem the lost.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
I'll be damned if I turn into a sloppy universalist that just wants to fucking bless everything in sight when my ethical sense knows damned well that there's plenty in the world not worth blessing.

Odd that. My reading of Christianity is that it's the things that aren't worth blessing that most need to be blessed. Christ didn't come to reward the Holy, He came to redeem the lost.
He also came telling the lost sheep of Israel to repent.

To me it's kind of a both-and, really. Redeemed and then called to act accordingly instead of perpetuating our sins like "a dog returning to its own puke." Should we sin more that grace may abound? Certainly not!

We are the lost until we are found. Once found, I think it'd be ridiculous to continue pretending that we are lost.

Though I'm still spending an unhealthy amount of time with John Wesley, so maybe I'm just regurgitating his views on justifying and sanctifying grace.

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Campbellite

Ut unum sint
# 1202

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
It is the belief among a fringe movement of the religious right that the US Constitution is divinely inspired. Most of them are LDS.

You are no doubt aware that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, et al. were determined to carve out their own country in the Rockies, outside US authority? The proposed nation of Deseret never materialized. [They were dissuaded by Federal arms.] A small fragment of it ended up as Utah.

--------------------
I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?

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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

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I am aware of that. It doesn't make sense to me why they would believe that either but they do. Mormons don't make sense to me. My guess is they needed to justify giving up part of what was a divine goal and in order to justify that they had to invent the idea that the document to which they were submitting was divinely inspired.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
We are the lost until we are found. Once found, I think it'd be ridiculous to continue pretending that we are lost.

Oh Lord I believe! Help thou mine unbelief.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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What is this "lost and found" stuff? Is that one of those deep spirichul alexgorys?

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--Formerly: Gort--

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:
What is this "lost and found" stuff? Is that one of those deep spirichul alexgorys?

Yes.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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Isn't it time to close this thread so that someone somewhere can open another one in August bitching about the controllers in the Vatican? Or how Catholics can't really be Christians? Or some other hoary shibboleth?

Just curious, you understand. Maybe we could pick on another flavour of church next month?

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Even more so than I was before

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FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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I was thinking that there should just be a permanent Hell thread on how much and in how many different ways the Catholic Church sucks (sort of like the permanent thread in Ecclesiantics on the Daily Office).

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
# 2

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Is there any other organization that is so completely tone deaf? Seriously. As long as you voluntarily remain with the RCC, I'll be honest and say I don't have much sympathy for you.

[ 29. July 2010, 13:44: Message edited by: Erin ]

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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Not looking for sympathy at all. It was a serious suggestion to reduce the multiplication of threads.

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.

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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Is there any other organization that is so completely tone deaf? Seriously. As long as you voluntarily remain with the RCC, I'll be honest and say I don't have much sympathy for you.

Tone deaf? Mebbe. Sexist? Definitely. And can someone in the know help me understand this quote from the link:

quote:
"The Pope has done explicitly a catechism about the many women in the service of the Gospel who were disciples of Jesus and helped him in his life," he said.
Is this a separate work? Where is it? What does it say? And does it show even more tone-deafness in carefully separating the interactions of men with Jesus from the interactions of women with Jesus?

And this from a church which regards marriage (IIUC) as a sacrament (as long as it's between people of (apparently) opposed genders?

I vote for a permanent thread -- or several. Maybe we need a new "hold" on the Ship which contains one thread per religious tradition, a place where Shipmates can froth and bitch about each other's (and their own) denominations, cults, One True Faiths, etc.

[ 29. July 2010, 14:54: Message edited by: Apocalypso ]

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
Is this a separate work? Where is it? What does it say? And does it show even more tone-deafness in carefully separating the interactions of men with Jesus from the interactions of women with Jesus?

Here.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405

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Thank you, IngoB.

If I were exploring the RCC as a prospective member, and took this rather lovely document to heart, with its quoting of "in Christ there is no male or female" and this final passage

quote:
As we can see, the praise refers to women in the course of the Church's history and was expressed on behalf of the entire Ecclesial Community. Let us also join in this appreciation, thanking the Lord because he leads his Church, generation after generation, availing himself equally of men and women who are able to make their faith and Baptism fruitful for the good of the entire Ecclesial Body and for the greater glory of God.
(emphasis added by me)

I would be painfully surprised and even shocked to discover that women cannot enter its priesthood. In fact, I would feel feel tricked and betrayed on behalf of women.

--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
I would be painfully surprised and even shocked to discover that women cannot enter its priesthood. In fact, I would feel feel tricked and betrayed on behalf of women.

Of course you would. Rotting equines are that way...

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256

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quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:

I would be painfully surprised and even shocked to discover that women cannot enter its priesthood. In fact, I would feel feel tricked and betrayed on behalf of women.

And the complete absence of female clergy isn't a clue to intending members?

I'm in an arm of the legal profession where only 12% of practitioners are women. That's consistently in the 8 years since I was called to the Bar. By contrast there are more female solicitors in NSW than male - and it's been that way for some time.

As recently as the 1920's here, there were 0% women at the New South Wales Bar. That changed of course. But don't understate the difficulties and discrimination those women faced in getting readerships and briefs from solicitors.

In the Catholic Church there are 0% women priests. That may change. Or not. But don't understate the difficulties and discrimination women priests faced in other denominations in getting their vocations recognised, getting appointments to parishes, in being ordained to the episcopate.

Now you could take the view that adding the ordination of women to "graviora delicta" in canon law simply means "Don't jump the gun and take matters into your own hands by ordaining women or being an ordained woman. If you do, though, you are walking away from what the Catholic Church holds and teaches. You aren't one of us any more." But don't count on that.

Personally I think that John Paul II, in banning discussion of women's ordination, was doing the theological equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and going "lalala". It meant that a whole area of the role of women, of women's discipleship, vocation and faith within the Catholic Church simply couldn't be looked at rationally at the official level. And still can't.

But then, as women in the West, we are privileged compared to many women in the Third World, particularly the position of women in Africa and in a number of Islamic countries. Ayaan Hirsi Alihas been in Sydney again recently. Quite frankly I agree with her that Western feminists have failed to engage properly with the problem of the role of women in Islam. The fact that HIV/AIDS is basically out of control in many parts of Africa has much to do with the fact that children and women don't get a choice about whether men use condoms or not (as well as fundamental questions of access to anti-retroviral drugs through poverty and basic general health issues to drag their resistance down further, even down to access to clean water.)

By and large, I feel a much greater sense of outrage and betrayal as a woman about these issues, than I do about whether some Western women, privileged by their education, get to be ordained priests in the Catholic Church.

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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
I would be painfully surprised and even shocked to discover that women cannot enter its priesthood. In fact, I would feel feel tricked and betrayed on behalf of women.

Of course you would. Rotting equines are that way...
Yes. I, too, sense the hovering aura of the Hellhosts...

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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Rotting equines are that way...

Yes. I, too, sense the hovering aura of the Hellhosts...
We've been hovering for a while. But so far, most people seem able to avoid the glue factory well enough that we haven't had to dole out specific warnings.

Let's keep it that way [Smile] .

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Hail Gallaxhar

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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493

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If Benedict sincerely believes that:
quote:
The Lord wants these Gospel witnesses, these figures who have made a contribution so that faith in him would grow, to be known, and their memory kept alive in the Church.
how can he put his name to a book that totally ignores them?

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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

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multipara
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# 2918

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Duo Seraphim:

I can see where you are coming from but that is no bloody excuse.

I consider myself fortunate that i come form a tradition where my clitoris was not amputated before puberty but that does not mean that OoW is not ipso facto non-existent priority.

I recall 40 years ago when 30% of medical students were female and less than 10% went on to specialist training. How things have changed, and what a marvel is it that the medicos (female especially ) have taken over where the padres have left off.

And BTW, my elder daughter is about to join that overwhelming majority of female solicitors in NSW.

m

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quod scripsi, scripsi

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Porridge
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# 15405

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quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:

I would be painfully surprised and even shocked to discover that women cannot enter its priesthood. In fact, I would feel feel tricked and betrayed on behalf of women.

And the complete absence of female clergy isn't a clue to intending members?
Some people, I among them, begin their explorations of new possibilities by reading about them, where this is less obvious.

Beyond that, there's a fairly active community of fundagelicals where I live, who require women to keep silent in church, have all-male clergy, follow the "headship" business, etc. Needless to say, I don't belong to this group.

Occasionally one of its members writes letters in to the local rag banging on about the appalling persecution faced by Christians, both here and abroad.

I usually write back a letter of my own to say that, country to country, culture to culture, and age to age, by far the most persecuted group of people on this planet has been and continues to be, women.

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256

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quote:
Originally posted by multipara:

I consider myself fortunate that i come form a tradition where my clitoris was not amputated before puberty but that does not mean that OoW is not ipso facto non-existent priority.

That was not what I said, mother of several - and you know it.

My argument is that there are greater priorities for Western feminism, not that ordination of women in the Catholic Church was a non-existent priority.

From my point of view the arguments against ordination of women in the Catholic Church have about as much validity as those in favour of priestly celibacy ie flimsy. I can't debate that argument on this board.

But if you really want to know what really gets me going, what fills me with pure,cold rage - it is the denial of education to girls and women in places like Afghanistan, honour killings, rape as warfare, genital mutilation. I could continue. They are the hard targets.

Ordination of women in the Catholic Church just doesn't fill me with the same level of rage.

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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)

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FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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OK, let's look at the names listed: Peter, his brother Andrew, James the older, John, Thomas, Matthew, Philip, Bartholomew, James the younger, Simon, Judas Thaddeus, Judas Iscariot, Matthias and Paul.

Does this particular list of names ring any bells? Can anyone think of a reason why these particular figures might have been chosen? Anyone?

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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They're all 2,000 yr-old misogynists?
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FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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Congratulations, you win the moron award.

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
..But if you really want to know what really gets me going, what fills me with pure,cold rage - it is the denial of education to girls and women in places like Afghanistan, honour killings, rape as warfare, genital mutilation. I could continue. They are the hard targets.

Amen - from your mouth to God's ears. Let's keep the priorities straight.
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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
Congratulations, you win the moron award.

Just heading off your lame attempt to justify all-male clergy, dipshit.
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FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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Right. Of course.

Newflash 1: Someone publishes a book of talks the pope gave on the 12 apostles (plus Paul).

Newsflash 2: Bears shit in the woods.

Newsflash 3: AEN, nee Gort, says something stupid.

[ 01. August 2010, 18:39: Message edited by: FCB ]

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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When you have something to share that isn't the Party Line, I'll consider an intelligent response. In the mean time, DH is that way ---->
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JoannaP
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# 4493

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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
OK, let's look at the names listed: Peter, his brother Andrew, James the older, John, Thomas, Matthew, Philip, Bartholomew, James the younger, Simon, Judas Thaddeus, Judas Iscariot, Matthias and Paul.

Does this particular list of names ring any bells? Can anyone think of a reason why these particular figures might have been chosen? Anyone?

Aren't Philip and Bartholomew generally thought to be two names for the same person?

And if you are going to include one person who never met Jesus before His death, why stop there?

How many Christians, if asked to compile a list of 14 "Friends of Jesus" would not include any-one called Mary? Or does Benedict believe that I am wrong to consider my mother to be my friend as well?

--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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On the Philip and Bartholomew question -- I have never heard that they were supposed to be the same person: you may be thinking of Batholomew and Nathanael.

My original point, which I thought was really obvious, but clearly wasn't, was that the group of "friends of Jesus" in the book consists of those whom the New Testament calls "apostles" (Paul is included because he makes a big deal out of claiming the title for himself). This is clearly the criterion according which they were chosen for inclusion. I really don't see why people should get into a lather about the Pope writing a book about those identified as Apostles in the Bible and not including any women. Mary Magdalene might have been an ingenious choice for inclusion (since some early Christian writers referred to her as the "apostle to the apostles"), but I don't really expect Popes (or those who assemble books out of their writings) to be ingenious.

For some reason Gort thinks I'm trying to make some point about the ordination of women, which, frankly, didn't even cross my mind.

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
...This is clearly the criterion according which they were chosen for inclusion. I really don't see why people should get into a lather about the Pope writing a book about those identified as Apostles in the Bible and not including any women...

For some reason Gort thinks I'm trying to make some point about the ordination of women, which, frankly, didn't even cross my mind.

No, no, of course not - an all male list of Friends of Jesus, ignoring the very most important and closest friends of Jesus who just happen to be female, has nothing to do with ordination of women. Nope, no way. Obviously I'm simply projecting my liberal biases.
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FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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Gort, it's a book on the apostles.

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.

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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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quote:
As we can see, the praise refers to women in the course of the Church's history and was expressed on behalf of the entire Ecclesial Community. Let us also join in this appreciation, thanking the Lord because he leads his Church, generation after generation, availing himself equally of men and women who are able to make their faith and Baptism fruitful for the good of the entire Ecclesial Body and for the greater glory of God.
[Killing me]
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Alfred E. Neuman

What? Me worry?
# 6855

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My apologies, FCB, just ignore me. Speak to those who can hear you. I'll shut up now.
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JoannaP
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# 4493

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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
On the Philip and Bartholomew question -- I have never heard that they were supposed to be the same person: you may be thinking of Batholomew and Nathanael.

My bad. I should have checked before posting. [Hot and Hormonal]

If there were only 12 "Friends of Jesus", I would not have objected. It's the 2 extras that I find odd, for reasons which Gort expresses perfectly.

--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
It's the 2 extras that I find odd, for reasons which Gort expresses perfectly.

Fair enough, though Paul and Mathias are identified as "apostles" in the New Testament.

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.

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jlg

What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98

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And there's a big difference between a hardcover book published for children and an obscure epistle on the Vatican website.

If the Pope has any decent PR advisers (and if they by any chance are reading the Ship [Razz] , may I suggest that they promptly produce a nice parallel book extolling all of those wonderful women who meant so much to Jesus.

Not to mention the women such as Hildegard of Bingen, who managed to overcome her sex and society and be proclaimed a Doctor of the Church. And left behind a lot of amazing music and medical knowledge to boot.

Better yet would be a revised version of the original book, expanded to include the women, with a forward by Pope Benny explaining that it was an inexcusable oversight that the first edition didn't include any women, since women have contributed so much to the church, blah, blah, blah.

But that's probably asking too much.

~~~

A few days ago, I watched the new season opener of MadMen. Having grown up in that era and having first-hand experience of being the oddball woman in a man's work world, it as all too real. (I'm even old enough that I remember the "John - Marsha" thing.)

Sadly, when dealing with the public and the laity, the Vatican is still living back in the '50s and early '60s. And has yet to adjust to the continuing schizoid aftereffects of VatII.

I had hoped that Benedict would use his love and understanding of the liturgy combined with what I thought was a rational intelligence to begin bringing the two pendulums of VatII overenthusiasm and the reactionary Trad movement into some sort of approach to equilibrium, but I have been repeatedly astounded at what has already, on this thread, been identified as his tone deafness.

Sadly, it doesn't seem to be happening.

Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
I really don't see why people should get into a lather about the Pope writing a book about those identified as Apostles in the Bible and not including any women.

<cough> Boys' club.

quote:
Mary Magdalene might have been an ingenious choice for inclusion (since some early Christian writers referred to her as the "apostle to the apostles"), but I don't really expect Popes (or those who assemble books out of their writings) to be ingenious.

If he meant the words, quoted on the thread, about God having equal purposes for men and women, then it would only require common sense, not ingenuity, to make sure women were included. And since it's called "Friends of Jesus", not "The Apostles", even a very conservative reading of Scripture would allow his mom, Mary Magdalene, maybe his mom's cousin Elizabeth, Joanna and the other women mentioned. Plus the Samaritan woman at the well, maybe the woman who washed his feet (if thought to be separate from Mary Magdalene), etc.

As to Mary Magdalene being "Apostle to the Apostles"... [Smile]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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