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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Wasn't it also to do with his Ugandan discussions?

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On 9 July 2008 ABC News' Nightline broadcast an investigative report on Bentley focusing on his faith healing claims, finances, and criminal past. Following the report, Bentley took time off from the revival but returned on 18 July 2008. Five days later, Bentley and Strader announced that Bentley would be leaving the revival permanently and that his last day would be 23 August 2008.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel
And at the same time, my opinion of EE's discernment abilities is beginning to wane even more dramatically ...

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Jumping to conclusions without properly evaluating the evidence is not proper discernment, hence my reaction earlier (which I admit was a bit OTT. Sorry about that ). Also, making assumptions on the basis of "once bitten, twice shy" is not proper discernment, but is actually discrimination based on the imposition of stereotypes. Being proven right about a dodgy church does not necessarily justify the dubious means by which that conclusion is reached.

Anyway... having looked at a bit more of Richard Taylor's blog, I would agree that there is something troubling, particularly the following:

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Here we go again. Steve Chalke says he's evangelical but loves hitting the headlines for all the wrong reasons. As if the church needed more compromising liberals joining the gang. The Christian world is now asking whether or not Steve Chalke, the Baptist minister, is an evangelical or not. He's already rejected the substitutionary atonement and now he blesses gay couples after a Civil Partnership. I've never been to [sic] shy to say what I think and my guess is that he himself is gay and yet come out* (watch this space).

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Wasn't it also to do with his Ugandan discussions?

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With regard to Todd Bentley, I have no idea what you're referring to.

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais
Feeling persecuted again are we?

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Not sure how to answer that, given that I am not a member of said church, have nothing to do with it, or even necessarily agree with what's going on.

Perhaps the term 'persecuted' has shifted in meaning? Pray, do enlighten me.

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

Anyway... having looked at a bit more of Richard Taylor's blog, I would agree that there is something troubling, particularly the following:

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Here we go again. Steve Chalke says he's evangelical but loves hitting the headlines for all the wrong reasons. As if the church needed more compromising liberals joining the gang. The Christian world is now asking whether or not Steve Chalke, the Baptist minister, is an evangelical or not. He's already rejected the substitutionary atonement and now he blesses gay couples after a Civil Partnership. I've never been to [sic] shy to say what I think and my guess is that he himself is gay and yet come out* (watch this space).

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* presumably this is "yet to come out"

I would agree that this personal attack on Steve Chalke (whose theology I do not altogether agree with) doesn't look good.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I suspect that more mainstream churches don't come in for as much stick here as they don't tend to embark on things that are likely to cause as much harm.

Of course, one could criticise them for inertia or whatever else.
[...]
Some groups appear able to sustain things over time, but they generally tone things down longer term. The traditional, old-time Pentecostals certainly have. It's long been observed that these things happen cyclically in Pentecostal/charismatic settings ... there'll be a bit of an upheaval followed by a period of consolidation, followed by another upheaval, followed by consolidation ...
[...]
There's also the issue that some of us have been bitten on the bum by groups like this. I don't see many people here nursing wounds and bruises inflicted by the Methodists, URCs or other less exotic groups.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't see many people here nursing wounds and bruises inflicted by the Methodists, URCs or other less exotic groups.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Best to talk tidy 'bout all 'iss, now isn't it?

'Meantasay, wait'n'see, isn't it? Stands to reason, stands to reason dunnit?

I do reckon 'iss woan'ave tha' much effect on Cwmbran wha'soever. Ok, doan ge'me wrong, yew may gerr some of'a local yewt' involved 'n'aw ... burr'a'ud be as far as i' do go.

'Migh' be wrong. Waidunsee. Burreyedoanreckon' much to i' from wharreyeve'yeard so far.

Waidunsee. Waidunsee isn't it?

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Boot it into touch esp if (and it's a big if) it's being hyped by plagaristic blogs.

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Originally posted by FreeJack:
Was he the guy who used to be with Renewal Centre in Solihull (crazy side of charismatic) and the Free Methodist Church (normal side of charismatic)?

I can see why he plays well in the valleys. He's a story-teller rather than a factually-based chronicler.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Boot it into touch esp if (and it's a big if) it's being hyped by plagaristic blogs.

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Are you disputing my claim that the blogposts linked to are plagiarised? And if so, on what grounds?

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
Well that didn't take long.

I'm calling the pastor out as a plagiarist right now.

Evidence is on his blog.

Text of the blogpost dated February 14, 2013 has been on the internet since at least a year earlier. It's lifted wholesale without attribution.

Text of the blogpost dated February 7, 2013 has been on the internet since at least two years earlier.

Both of the blogposts contain word-for-word copy/pasting and are unattributed.

I haven't checked any further, but I think that tells you all you need to know.

Now who wants to do something about it?

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think that a minimum of integrity is a basic requisite for a christian leader.

I have absolutely no truck whatsoever with the argument that we should turn a blind eye to shortcomings "because of all the good that's come out of it".

I think plagiarism of that nature is not a minor shortcoming, either. It raises fundamental questions about ethics and integrity and should alert any responsible trustees to the need to check other aspects and credentials further.

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Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
It's such a shame that your [Eutychus'] default position is, once again, to assume the worst. Richard York quotes on his blog, text that has appeared elsewhere on the Internet. But where did Mr York come by this text? Did he lift it wholesale from elsewhere? Did someone send it to him in an email? Did he copy and paste it into a file of interesting quotes without noting the author? Is this really a deliberate attempt by him to gain credit for someone else's work, or just someone reproducing something he found interesting without being careful to record the original source?

There are far more important tests of a man's character than the care he takes with recording information on a blog.

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Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
Richard York quotes on his blog, text that has appeared elsewhere on the Internet. But where did Mr York come by this text? Did he lift it wholesale from elsewhere? Did someone send it to him in an email? Did he copy and paste it into a file of interesting quotes without noting the author? Is this really a deliberate attempt by him to gain credit for someone else's work, or just someone reproducing something he found interesting without being careful to record the original source?

There are far more important tests of a man's character than the care he takes with recording information on a blog.

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Richard is a renowned author, having written books such as “Authentic Christianity,” “Making your Faith Work,” and his biography “To Catch a Thief.” He is also the Principal of Victory Academy which teaches theology and leadership.

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
Many pastors quote from sources like the HBR.

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
But some people do post blog material without any attribution. It happens all the time. I don't like it and I don't approve of it, but I can't get quite as excited about it as you do.

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
But some people do post blog material without any attribution. It happens all the time. I don't like it and I don't approve of it, but I can't get quite as excited about it as you do. I guess there's an element too of me not really caring, because not in a million years would I ever contemplate walking in the door of such a church. I would care if it turned into something that was exploiting vulnerable people, but I'm not sure it's doing that.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
Many pastors quote from sources like the HBR.

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How difficult is it for you and drewthealexander to understand what is meant by quote? It's not a quote. It's plagiarism. This person is not posting as some anonymous shipmate (and in the two instances I know of here, there were ramifications within the community and at least one of them made a full apology in the end). This person is posting as a high-profile leader. From those to whom much is entrusted, much shall be demanded.

The thing that really gets me here is that as far as I can see, you two are making special pleading purely because this person is from a similar theological stable to you. If you and others are failing to apply basic standards of ethics simply because somebody is "one of us", it's not much wonder we see a steady succession of charlatans in certain corners of the church.[/b]?

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
SC Kevin, I understand that, but it's someone writing a blog who is clearly more street-wise than university-wise. He may not even be aware he's done anything wrong. A quiet word in his ear about proper attribution might have been an idea.

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Richard Taylor... went on to study for a degree in theology... Richard is a bible teacher... Richard is a renowned author... He is also the Principal of Victory Academy which teaches theology and leadership.

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Plagarism to the extent of that on the blog would result in serious discipline if discovered in a university context.

Why is the church different? I think our standard must be higher.

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Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
Here's a view from a recent visitor. I must say it always intrigues me that when, on these threads, there is any indication that the Gospel is having a tangible impact, it's longstanding Christians who are the first to try and discredit it.

I suppose we could apply the same standards elsewhere in Chdistian history. God could not have been working miraculously in Corinth because of immorality in the church. Peter should never have been given a public platform once he has denied Christ. How could someone like Paul, who fell out with a gentlemen as eirenic as Barnabas ever be trusted as a pastoral leader?

The amount of time and effort for small town churches to maintain the sort of activity we see in Cwmbran is both considerable and commendable. And from Mr Pyman's blog, the motivation for all this is self-sacrificial rather than self-aggrandisement. For whatever reasons, and from whatever distances, people are responding to the challenge of the Gospel. I commend the churches in Cwmbran for their love and dedication. The Gospel is being preached, people are responding, church leaders from far and wide are reflecting deeply on their own witness and the degree to which they have become content with what they have, as opposed to seeking to have an even greater impact on their communities.

I wish them well.

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by EM:

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Plagarism to the extent of that on the blog would result in serious discipline if discovered in a university context.

Why is the church different? I think our standard must be higher.

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I'm not suggesting the church should be any different at all. When in secondary school and if lucky, at university, you are taught how to make proper attribution for quotes and ideas and portions of text....'taught'. If you haven't had the benefit of that, it can be helpful to have someone tell you and explain why. Some people genuinely don't see themselves as doing anything wrong in these situations. They see something they like, something they whole heartedly agree with and they post it on a blog or regurgitate it socially without any attribution - not because they want to appear clever, or pass off others work as their own; but because they agree with it or like it. All I'm saying is that Euty could have sent an email to the lad who makes the blog and asked him to make proper attribution and explain why. Problem solved. Instead, he has called his entire life into question. Seems a bit of a jump to me.

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Originally posted by Boogie:
In my charismatic days I went to this Church. The 'outpouring' and the elation it produced was very much like an amphetamine high. I wonder, with this Victory Church - as it was founded by ex addicts - if they have substituted one high for another?

Hopefully this one is less destructive.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Whoops ... I think I've muddled EM and EE up again ...

Although I agree with what each has said here.

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

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Originally posted by FreeJack:
Was he the guy who used to be with Renewal Centre in Solihull (crazy side of charismatic) and the Free Methodist Church (normal side of charismatic)?

I can see why he plays well in the valleys. He's a story-teller rather than a factually-based chronicler.

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I don't know about the Free Methodist Church, but yes he was at Solihull it would appear (I think where David Carr of Old French tongue-speaking fame, who I've mentioned here before, is or was). I wonder what the story behind his trajectory is?

"Story-teller", eh? Do you have any concrete evidence of that, or is it just from his style?

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
Secondly, you haven't addressed my point about a certain shipmate, whom I count as a good friend IRL who made a similar mistake on this very ship a few years ago. If you're going to use a measure, fine. But use it consistently.

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This person is not posting as some anonymous shipmate (and in the two instances I know of here, there were ramifications within the community and at least one of them made a full apology in the end). This person is posting as a high-profile leader. From those to whom much is entrusted, much shall be demanded.

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
All I'm saying is that Euty could have sent an email to the lad who makes the blog and asked him to make proper attribution and explain why. Problem solved. Instead, he has called his entire life into question. Seems a bit of a jump to me.

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My firm conviction is that the proclamation of the Gospel and the authentic work of the Spirit have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, from every effort being made to act with integrity and to be seen to be doing so.

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