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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Revival in Cwmbran?
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander
I must say it always intrigues me that when, on these threads, there is any indication that the Gospel is having a tangible impact, it's longstanding Christians who are the first to try and discredit it.
and
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian
Instead this thread has gone on a bit of crusade to be honest, that jumps from - he's a plagiarist, to he's the scum of the earth and his entire ministry is a deception and therefore the whole outfit is of the devil.
I must admit that this was my impression when reading some of the early content of this thread, hence my rather intemperate reaction.
I do think a 'Gamaliel' (biblical not Ship, no disrespect intended) approach is required, irrespective of the pastor's shortcomings on the plagiarism issue. It could be that he just misunderstands 'fair use' and may even ignore any rebuke, because he may be so caught up in the mechanics of his work that he just assumes that such a rebuke is an attack of the devil. This may be more immaturity and church culture driven, than any deeply sinister motive.
I have to say that the plagiarism issue doesn't bother me as much as his dismissive views of Steve Chalke (that is the only 'doctrinal' issue that I have noticed so far). I have a background in book publishing, and one of the major factors that caused me to lose my job was book piracy in a certain African country where I was selling certain bestsellers, which were printed illegally and which viciously undercut my distributor, to whom I offered low prices very much in keeping with his economy. So no one can preach to me about copyright issues, because I have suffered direct financial and career loss because of the violation of copyright laws. I am now in a low paid 'stop gap' job in another area of work, and so I am still directly affected by this. One would therefore think that I would be extremely angry about this phenomenon in this context. The fact is, the person who ought to be informed of this copyright violation is the original author of the article that has been plagiarised. He is the victim in this. If there is any genuine righteous indignation, then a message to the original author would be appropriate, I think.
I think that it is possible to be genuinely used of God, and yet be extremely sloppy and slovenly in certain areas, which are technically moral, but which may involve a certain ambiguity (e.g. how far do we take 'fair use'?). Yes, technically a case can be put against such people, and it is very easy to get on our soap box about it, but I wonder how many of us could really stand if every nook and cranny of our lives was subjected to the full glare of every conceivable regulation? God uses damaged goods. He also uses stubborn damaged goods.
Therefore I don't think the integrity of this whole ministry can really be judged on the basis of examples of plagiarism and the pastor's response to the charge thereof.
One other thing... if the pastor does have a consciously sinister motive, then it does seem rather strange that he has been so lax in exposing himself to just the kind of criticism we see on this thread. I would have thought that if he really wanted to pass himself off as the author of these articles, he could easily have got someone to rewrite the content. It really isn't that difficult.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander
I must say it always intrigues me that when, on these threads, there is any indication that the Gospel is having a tangible impact, it's longstanding Christians who are the first to try and discredit it.
If the Gospel is having a tangible impact, that's all the more reason for those with responsibility to be as above reproach as they can be. That's not so much about never making mistakes but how they deal with them. quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian
Instead this thread has gone on a bit of crusade to be honest, that jumps from - he's a plagiarist, to he's the scum of the earth and his entire ministry is a deception and therefore the whole outfit is of the devil.
Nobody has said that anywhere. It's a straw man.
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
It could be that he just misunderstands 'fair use'
As a graduate of higher academic education and leader of a self-proclaimed theological academy? quote:
and may even ignore any rebuke, because he may be so caught up in the mechanics of his work that he just assumes that such a rebuke is an attack of the devil.
You say that like it excuses him. quote:
This may be more immaturity and church culture driven, than any deeply sinister motive.
Who do you see questioning his motives? Irrespective of the motives, it needs to be recognised that it's a problem and stop.
quote:
The fact is, the person who ought to be informed of this copyright violation is the original author of the article that has been plagiarised. He is the victim in this. If there is any genuine righteous indignation, then a message to the original author would be appropriate, I think.
You have a point, but I'm not actually sure who the original author is. For the current purposes, the key issue was to prove that it was not Taylor's own work.
It's true the original author is a victim, but he's not the only one. The people like the guy from Horsham who are reading the blog in good faith that it is an accurate representation of Taylor's own original views are being misled. They are victims too, and they have the potential to mislead many others.
(Besides, I can't even begin to imagine the outrage from some here if I did find the original author and alert him. In the other case I'm involved in, I can prove several instances of plagiarism, one from a published work. The group I'm working with preferred not to inform the original (non-christian) publisher because of the potential for an ensuing lawsuit to finacially ruin the christian publisher of the plagiarised work).
quote:
I think that it is possible to be genuinely used of God, and yet be extremely sloppy and slovenly in certain areas
This is certainly true, thankfully for all of us, but it is no excuse for looking the other way
quote:
which are technically moral, but which may involve a certain ambiguity (e.g. how far do we take 'fair use'?)
Are you seriously claiming that those blogposts are "fair use"? Can you point me to a single legal ruling to back up your claim? It's unethical and misleading, there's nothing fair about it at all.
quote:
I wonder how many of us could really stand if every nook and cranny of our lives was subjected to the full glare of every conceivable regulation?
This is not a minor technical infraction like using the office photocopier. This is passing someone else's work off as your own. I'm not perfect, but I hope that if I ever end up doing something so unethical that somebody will call me on it and I'll have the good sense to listen. quote:
God uses damaged goods. He also uses stubborn damaged goods.
Again, yes, but I don't think he actually prefers to or expects us to put up with that. He didn't seem too happy with the 'shepherds' Ezekiel complains about.
quote:
Therefore I don't think the integrity of this whole ministry can really be judged on the basis of examples of plagiarism and the pastor's response to the charge thereof.
Please show exactly where on this thread anyone has done so.
quote:
it does seem rather strange that he has been so lax in exposing himself to just the kind of criticism we see on this thread.
Again, the extent to which the person in the other case I'm investigating has got away with this, for years, is quite simply unbelievable. People get away with this because christians who should know better can't be bothered to perform the most basic check. They are the ones who are lax.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Sorry, I didn't take long enough sorting out the nested quotes there. Just to clear up any confusion, this text in the first block is by me, not EE: quote:
If the Gospel is having a tangible impact, that's all the more reason for those with responsibility to be as above reproach as they can be. That's not so much about never making mistakes but how they deal with them.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
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Posted
I agree with Drewthealexander when he says:
quote:
There are far more important tests of a man's character than the care he takes with recording information on a blog.
What I would disagree with, is there being any reason to believe this was some sort of administrative oversight. Richard Taylor is very media savvy. It is difficult to imagine such a person lifting another man's work, and merely forgetting to attribute it. I'm sure many people less astute than Eutychus have read that blog, and it has never crossed their minds that it wasn't written by Richard Taylor. I would suggest it quickly becomes second nature to anyone seriously involved in media, that quotes are attributed....unless they wish to convey a false impression, of course.
Regarding Mr Taylor's media interests, perhaps that would be one of those "more important tests" of character.
Even while just an associate pastor at Solihull, Taylor was already looking to make a dent in the media. He signed his contract with "Personality Artistes Ltd" - a promotional agency - who's self-description runs like this:
PERSONALITY ARTISTES LTD is a showbusiness to business resource for platinum calibre artistes and world wide theatre tours, all promoted by or in association with PERSONALITY ARTISTES LTD.
As I understand it, they are still pushing him to this day. I would suggest that - when it comes to a test of a man's character - the desire for fame and fortune is pretty significant. There is much of that to be had from an 'outpouring' - even if he's just revisiting the Toronto/Lakeland nonsense, careful management (and just the right amount of hype)will yield rich rewards.
From my own POV, I would be just as happy to take my Christian teaching from one of Personality Artiste's other luminaries..... as a matter of fact, I rather like the sound of "Bongo Eddie"!
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
Even while just an associate pastor at Solihull, Taylor was already looking to make a dent in the media. He signed his contract with "Personality Artistes Ltd" - a promotional agency - who's self-description runs like this:
PERSONALITY ARTISTES LTD is a showbusiness to business resource for platinum calibre artistes and world wide theatre tours, all promoted by or in association with PERSONALITY ARTISTES LTD.
As I understand it, they are still pushing him to this day.
Thanks for those insights. Can you provide any backup for his links to the agency and whether they are ongoing?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Eutychus,
I hope you've noticed that I haven't spoken either negatively or positively about the genuineness of this phenomenon. I've seen enough of these so-called events to be very suspicious of them and I have never travelled anywhere in order to "catch the fire".
Actually, from what I've seen so far I'm not particularly impressed. For example, the man's labouring of the point about taking adequate rest is simply an oblique way of claiming to be the new Todd Bentley. Far from showing humility under God, it is a manipulative attempt at claiming some kind of "prophetic mantle" or whatever charismanic terminology is doing the rounds at the moment.
The exhortation to "jump on a plane" is clearly an attempt to manufacture a mass pilgrimage of world proportions like Lakeland, Pensacola, and Toronto before them. If the concern really was a new Welsh revival he'd be out door knocking in his local community. Indeed, he might doing just that. We don't actually know. But somehow I doubt it.
His saying that he can "guarantee" an experience of the Holy Spirit isn't far short of blasphemous.
No, I'm not trying to speak for this thing. But when there is sufficient material in his public statements to raise suspicions I see no particular reason to dig up dirt on the man. Furthermore, I think you are less likely to get a hearing for your objections and reservations if you come across like some kind of cyber-stalker than if you exercise charitable discernment in the relation to claims being made for the actual phenomena.
Why? Because even if he is guilty of plagiarism it could still in fact be a revival. Better to look at the thing itself and the direct claims being made for it first, I think
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
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Posted
Eutychus
I should have put them in - I just struggle with UBB codes. They are here
and here
If I find out you only want that so you can book Bongo Eddie, you and me will fall out.
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Furthermore, I think you are less likely to get a hearing for your objections and reservations if you come across like some kind of cyber-stalker than if you exercise charitable discernment in the relation to claims being made for the actual phenomena.
For some reason I can't get back to the beginning of this thread right now (I hope this is a temporary blip), but as and when I can I think you'll see that the time between my first post and the one posting news of the plagiarism is a matter of minutes. I hardly think you can describe that as "cyberstalking". I didn't go out to "dig dirt", I set out to follow my own advice that it needed to be looked into. I looked around for some more info, found his blog, recognised what looked like plagiarism and the rest is board history (if the first page hasn't been wiped forever...).
quote:
Because even if he is guilty of plagiarism it could still in fact be a revival. Better to look at the thing itself and the direct claims being made for it first, I think
The problem I have with this is that it gives me the impression that if he were a "Calvinist... Evangelical... not a revivalist...believed that praying over hankies was descriptive not prescriptive, and was the pastor of a poor Anglican church of less that 50 people", it would not matter to you that he engaged in plagiarism - which to me is far more serious. The value of praying over hankies is a matter of personal conviction, the matter of plagiarism is one of personal integrity.
We can discuss the validity of a revival until the eschaton (if we believe in the latter...), and some people are experts at producing walls of pseudo-spiritual text to obfuscate any theological objections we may have. It seems to me to be far more subjective and compelling to examine some incontrovertible evidence that does not require any particular set of beliefs to agree on.
[ETA the start of the thread is back now. 13 minutes elapsed between my first and second posts]
[ 11. May 2013, 16:32: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
And that should have of course read "objective and compelling..."
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think we make a category mistake if we think of revival as some kind of pure, unsullied and somehow completely sovereign act of Almighty God which cannot be criticised or evaluated in any way.
I well remember attending an academic conference on revival that managed to upset both Calvinists and charismatics - so it must have been doing something right ![[Biased]](wink.gif) - because it applied sociological data - very convincingly in my view.
It did so without in anyway undermining or calling into question the divine elements or suggesting that God wasn't really at work etc etc. But that still wasn't good enough for some people raised on a diet of out-of-context revivalist hagiographies and wishful thinking.
Much of the interest in the Welsh Revival of 1904/05 came from the way it was reported - it featured quite prominently in the newspapers of the time - whether the Times over in London and even the Yorkshire Post. And there was a lot of debate for and against.
For my part, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are people who have been and are being genuinely impacted/influenced for good by all of this ... yet at the same time I have grave reservations about the kind of stable from which it comes. That doesn't mean it's all bad, of course, but I suspect that a lot of faithful, stable ministers and clergy are going to have a lot of messy clearing up today once the bandwagon moves on.
There was certainly 'blessing' in the Toronto Blessing, but it was a mixed blessing at best and the results were very difficult to quantify one way or another. Looking back, I think much of it was simply a form of autosuggestion and self-hypnosis ... there certainly wasn't that much impact on people who weren't already involved with the churches which took part.
Watchman Nee described a similar period of apparent advance in 1930s Shanghai, where, after a season of great excitement and revival-type phenomena he concluded that not a great deal had been gained - if anything, much had been lost.
I'd like to be able to think more positively and differently in this instance, but I doubt if the misgivings expressed here are wide of the mark.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There was certainly 'blessing' in the Toronto Blessing, but it was a mixed blessing at best... [T]here certainly wasn't that much impact on people who weren't already involved with the churches which took part.
Watchman Nee described a similar period of apparent advance in 1930s Shanghai, where, after a season of great excitement and revival-type phenomena he concluded that not a great deal had been gained - if anything, much had been lost.
That's rather tragic, if true. I fear the same thing will happen in Cwmbran if their emphasis is (as the website suggests) on the meetings, and not on growing discipleship among the Christians. If all the fervour and excitement don't result in people leading more godly lives, then it's probably all going to fizzle out at some point down the line without any lasting impact.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well yes, and that's equally true, of course, in less effervescent settings. I do think that the more sacramental traditions are very good at 'spiritual formation' but not everyone in those traditions avails themselves of these wonderful means that they have at their disposal.
So, in the interests of balance, it's fair to say that it cuts both ways.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were some genuine conversions and genuine experiences in and amongst the froth and the hype - but there has to be recognition that these things operate on a 'soul' level if you like ... in the same way that any other form of religious expression does - be it cathedral architecture, good religious poetry, music or art, good preaching or whatever else.
Sure, God does work in and through it, but none of this stuff floats above the ground some kind of pure and unadulterated fashion. It's all messy and all bears our smear and smudge, as Gerard Manley Hopkins might have put it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Thank you Eutychus.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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geroff
Shipmate
# 3882
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Posted
I have just read the entire thread so far and I wonder if we have even touched on - what is happening in Wales as the OP. I saw a link to this from a trusted friend on another website. It struck me that whilst this guy said it was not about him or that particular church people were coming from all over Europe to 'catch' some of the blessing. If it is not about him and is instead about God why do we need to visit Victory church. Why not ask God to do it here? If he is everywhere he can be here as well. I have always thought this, whether it is in Wales now, or at St Michael le Belfry or Toronto (to show my age!).
PS
I haven't read the blog because I find that many Pastor's blogs are just retweets because they really don't have the time to write blogs and anyway they are only doing them because someone in their congregation thinks it is a good idea. Perhaps its something to do whilst waiting for the outpouring!
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"The first principle in science is to invent something nice to look at and then decide what it can do." Rowland Emett 1906-1990
Posts: 1172 | From: Montgomeryshire, Wales | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
You might like to see this e-mail sent around the local clergy this week:
quote:
I am sending this to all of you that I know have been praying for Wales and have also prayed that God would pour out His Spirit in Revival.
The Victory Church here in Cwmbran has been doing a wonderful job of being faithful to the Lord, for praying for wisdom for seeing what God is doing and wants them to do and also for stepping into His will – and stepping out in great faith. This they have done.
Just to say we believe the Victory Church, is a ‘Birthing Church’ they are truly listening to God – being carried along by the wave of His Spirit...
The Church is aimed at helping the younger ones to leave addiction and alcohol and prison behind; they are Alongsider’ s with great practical help - and all the people who have been waiting to see this sort of thing break out in their own Churches have gone to help.
God is good. Richard the Pastor has written his own testimony in a book called To Catch a Thief – well worth a read.
One of the things Pip and I are involved with is bringing a solid foundation of FICM Discipleship into Wales. Ecumenically we are enabling Church planting and for Whole churches to be Loved and Discipled with these Resources...
TheLeaders have been through the fiery furnace to prepare them for this time; are we willing to do likewise to see God moving mightily - are we going to continue in the same old way or are we also going to invite THE HOLY SPIRIT to come among us.
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by geroff:
I haven't read the blog because I find that many Pastor's blogs are just retweets
I'm sorry to labour this point, but as its name indicates, a retweet is usually labelled as such, thus demonstrating that it originated from somebody else. At least two posts on Richard Taylor's blog have clearly been plagiarised without attribution from prior sources, one of them not even apparently christian (what I think was the original material was in an article entitled How Leaders lose their Luck!). The impression is therefore that the material is his own work, which it isn't.
Rev per Minute, you don't say what conclusions you draw from that e-mail, but it does little to reassure me.
I suppose the best-case scenario is that quote:
all the people who have been waiting to see this sort of thing break out in their own Churches have gone to help
eventually return to their local community and do something as constructive in terms of social insertion and so on as one hopes Victory Church is doing - and do not become discouraged if that turns out to be less reproducible in their local context than they might have imagined.
My experience of such initiatives is that the best ones are not those that grab the media spotlight. Which by coincidence ties in much more what I expect the Kingdom of God to look like.
I really don't like the implicit rebuke quote:
are we willing to do likewise to see God moving mightily - are we going to continue in the same old way or are we also going to invite THE HOLY SPIRIT to come among us
and the underlying implication that, as geroff has said, Victory Church have a local monopoly on the Holy Spirit, or something approaching it.
I'm not sure whether the e-mail counts as ringing endorsement or not. A read through the 2008 Lakeland thread linked to earlier on reveals how christian leaders queued up to endorse Todd Bentley when he was flavour of the month and ran in all directions when he no longer was. I really don't see how this reflects any sort of christian values of friendship or mutual accountability at all.
Once again, and as per my original post on this thread, I'm not saying God cannot use this whatever-it-is or that people cannot be converted through it (as Don Francisco memorably sang in his piece about Balaam, "he could have used the dog next door if he'd been so inclined"...).
However, I contend that there are a number of factors - apart from any theological ones - that count as warning signs. The plagiarism is one - at least, pending a response now that someone in the church has been made aware of it. Taylor's apprent ongoing contract with a promotional agency, which seems rather at odds with his ministry functions and responsibilities, is another.
If he or the trustees of the church don't see fit to address that kind of concern, I think the structure of this "revival" is fundamentally unsound. If I was in Newport, like Paul I would strive to rejoice in the gospel being preached, but like Paul I would not choose to throw my lot in with the preacher on the basis of what I've seen, or encourage others to do so.
I'm concerned that well-meaning and honest christians will divert energy and resources into something that in the long run, may turn out at best a diversion and at worst a deception.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Not wishing to throw too large a spanner into the works, but has anybody on the Ship actually *been* to Victory Church and seen for themselves what is going on there?
I ask this because all of the discussion so far has been built around second-hand evidence. As some of you will be aware, I seldom post in Purgatory because opinion, however well expressed, is seldom good enough for serious debate. I freely confess to comprehensive ignorance about most aspects of life, an ignorance that tends to be underlined whenever I read a thread here in Purg. On the face of it, I would suggest that the usual reservations about opinion are being largely ignored on this thread.
It is altogether too easy to pontificate about the affairs of some church or other and sound very wise and knowledgeable in the doing whilst actually being largely ignorant of what is going on. I respectfully suggest that I am seeing quite a lot of this here - so far I have yet to read a first-hand account of Victory Church.
Ladies and Gentlemen, are we being too free with our speculations?
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Ladies and Gentlemen, are we being too free with our speculations?
The plagiarism is there in black and white. My e-mail about it is still awaiting a response. His mugshot is in colour on the promotional agency website.
Does this write everything else off? I've said "no", many times and in a variety of ways. But to my mind it raises plenty of major questions before even setting foot in the place.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Rev per Minute, you don't say what conclusions you draw from that e-mail, but it does little to reassure me.
To be honest, it sets off a lot of alarm bells for me. The implication that the Spirit will only use one channel seems to be at odds with the meaning of Pentecost, and the history of these 'blessings' is such that I worry that the event in Cwmbrân will leave no positive legacy.
As Victory Church is only a few miles away, I may try to visit - though I should warn the local vicar first, as I would be trampling on his patch. I also have a trustworthy evangelical in the diocese (trustworthy means that I trust him, not that evangelicals should not be trusted) whose opinion is probably more important to me than some of the reports. If I do get to visit, I will report back. (Mind you, escaping from Cwmbrân can be like Escape form New York!)
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Please do! I've quoted what I think is substantive evidence for legitimate concerns, not mere speculation, but Darllenwr makes a fair challenge about the relevant of having a report from someone who's actually been. Maybe a MW report can be arranged!
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
I have been following this thread with great interest, as Ihave heard Richard Taylor preach several times when he was with Renewal in Solihull. He always came across to me as a sincere person who had his life changed by God.
from a drug addict and tearaway to a man of God.
I also bought his book when it was launched at a black tie diner.
I was not very happy to hear of his link with Personality Artists, but I have been listening to a bit of the meeting on the internet tonight and he was nothing that I thought was wrong.
I am just waiting to see if there is any response to the Email that was sent.
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
Posts: 1050 | From: england | Registered: Aug 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Apart from the (alleged) plagiarism, it sounds as if this church's major PR mistake was in naming their current season of church growth a 'revival'. If they'd chosen a less emotive, controversial word, maybe everyone would be happy.
The temptation to tell the whole world about one's good fortune is only human. Lively church growth and heightened spiritual activity, even if they only last for a short while, are such rare happenings that they're bound to create some waves. Has this church been in the papers, or on the local news? (Maybe they soon will be for the claims of plagiarism, if for nothing else! Bad news sells better than good news, I suppose!)
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Apart from the (alleged) plagiarism
<checks definitions of "plagiarism" and "alleged">
Are you saying that my findings don't constitute proof (to a standard of "weight of evidence")? If so, why? If not, why have you added the word "alleged"?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Just to reply to Eutychus' remarks, please don't imagine that I am disputing the finding of plagiarism - the evidence is there for all to see.
But that is my point - there is evidence. Much of what has been said upthread has been along the lines of "I suspect, therefore ...", without there being any supporting evidence (from the ground itself) to undergird the suspicions. By all means, entertain suspicions where you have evidence, as Eutychus has, very properly, done. For the rest, tread warily.
I have not been to Cwmbran personally. I live within 20 miles, but have no particular wish to visit the place. Gamaliel's description is very accurate. The place is a grey concrete jungle.
Saying which, one cannot discount the possibility that this is a genuine work of God, in which case some amongst us may be guilty of casting aspersions on God Himself - generally thought to be unhealthy.
Without first-hand evidence, anything we can say is purely speculation and supposition. Tread with circumspection is all I am saying.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
They have live stream - not the same as physical presence but a way to reflect, tonight's event has been on for a few hours already and some reason only getting sound so far, and on a song.
I recall people from my home church supporting the work of victory outreach as a faith based addiction rehab centre. By faith based I believe Bible study was compulsory for participants, and a particular interpretation of the Bible. We had groups of their clients visit the church for services.
Looking back I feel uncomfortable about that - a kind of parade to support donations. Mind you I feel that way about lots of things these days and probably another issue.
All this victory church development is after my time (oh that makes me sound older than I am!)and I know nothing of this pastor.
Before I came to where I now am, there was a mission in the locality that is summed up by refering to an event in one place that was advertised as 'God is coming to <village>' (or it may have been 'God has arrived at..' - either way the sense was that he hadn't been around before.
The invitation to 'come here' whether minibus or plane gives me the same twitches. If something dramatic happened where I was I would want to be saying 'if it happened here why not where you are'
I have in distant years been involved in prayer for revival groups, and things have happened that I can't account for. But I have also experienced an event/happening that I was part of being hyped and in the retelling dramtics added. It makes me very very wary of stories in circles where it feeds into the expectations of the story tellers.
If lives are changed - wonderful. But what does it matter to ask after what will happen for another disciple (John 21) my call is still to seek God's will and leading myself and where I am. And that doesn't change whether what happens down the road or not. Anyway my experience so far is that God turns up in ways I don't expect and tends to challenge my expectations.
BTW for the live feed worship report still on a song, it has changed I think from the words, but not muchly musically.... ooh stop press, a Word from the Lord - 'those who have left will miss it' - get contact of someone you want to see saved on your mobile phone and hold up, God going to do miracles, then prays to save those people 'In the name of Jesus salvation shall come to them' (shouted, as God is deaf??) Amen, then request to send in reports via twitter and facebook.
Says praying for churches people come from, pray for your pastors, we are not after your tithe etc.
end but not, free to stay and worship...
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Saying which, one cannot discount the possibility that this is a genuine work of God, in which case some amongst us may be guilty of casting aspersions on God Himself - generally thought to be unhealthy.
I've read your post very carefully and I think it exonerates me... for now at least
To your sobering point above, yes that needs to be borne in mind, but it should not end up granting a free pass to unscrupulous leaders.
I would prefer to talk in terms of "the possibility of God being genuinely at work" in the midst of it all (and indeed, readers will note that's still my position about the Toronto Blessing, rather in spite of myself! - it's also my view, stated on these boards before, of Lourdes) rather than of a "genuine work of God" because the latter may wrongly imply a flawlessness that will simply never be there.
My point is that a desire for genuineness should lead to a willingness to work on the flaws. I suppose we can differ about what constitutes a major flaw but I stand by my argument that in view of Taylor's claimed credentials and responsibility, plagiarism is a gaping one. Let's hope he or they address it appropriately.
Concrete jungle eh? Well, they went out into the desert to see John the Baptist...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Furthermore, I think you are less likely to get a hearing for your objections and reservations if you come across like some kind of cyber-stalker than if you exercise charitable discernment in the relation to claims being made for the actual phenomena.
For some reason I can't get back to the beginning of this thread right now (I hope this is a temporary blip), but as and when I can I think you'll see that the time between my first post and the one posting news of the plagiarism is a matter of minutes. I hardly think you can describe that as "cyberstalking". I didn't go out to "dig dirt", I set out to follow my own advice that it needed to be looked into. I looked around for some more info, found his blog, recognised what looked like plagiarism and the rest is board history (if the first page hasn't been wiped forever...).
quote:
Because even if he is guilty of plagiarism it could still in fact be a revival. Better to look at the thing itself and the direct claims being made for it first, I think
The problem I have with this is that it gives me the impression that if he were a "Calvinist... Evangelical... not a revivalist...believed that praying over hankies was descriptive not prescriptive, and was the pastor of a poor Anglican church of less that 50 people", it would not matter to you that he engaged in plagiarism - which to me is far more serious.
If you were as opposed to misconstruction as you are to plagiarism, I think you'd post a lot less and understand lot more, Eutychus. I haven't said plagiarism is OK. It isn't. I just don't accept that an act of plagarism in one instance provides incontrovertible evidence of charlatanism in another.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Apart from the (alleged) plagiarism
<checks definitions of "plagiarism" and "alleged">
Are you saying that my findings don't constitute proof (to a standard of "weight of evidence")? If so, why? If not, why have you added the word "alleged"?
I haven't studied your findings, so I'm not at liberty to judge them inadequate proof of anything.
You could defend yourself should the moderators of this messageboard or other authorities take exception to what you've said, but I wouldn't be able to defend myself if made the same claims. For that reason, I can't share your certainty. That's not a criticism of you, but protection for myself.
In my last post I was focusing on the claims of revival, not on the claims of plagiarism.
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Consider yourself exonerated, Eutychus. And, yes, I agree that we should talk in terms of God possibly being at work in the midst of it all.
I am disturbed that there appears to be rather heavy emphasis on a Personality but that, it could be argued, is simply playing along with the current fascination with celebrity. "People want a celebrity, let's give them one." Can't say that I like that very much.
X-post with Svitlana2
[ 11. May 2013, 21:30: Message edited by: Darllenwr ]
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
To be fair to Cwmbran, Darllenwr, there's plenty of greenery and open spaces - and you can walk 'up the mountain' dead easily - the whole town has Mynydd Maen as a backdrop and as kids we used to walk up there come rain or shine and there are spectacular views across the Bristol Channel or over westwards across the valleys to the Brecon Beacons and Carmarthen Fan. Tidy.
That's about the best bit about the place, the town's a dump but the surrounding area is pretty cool.
I wrote this poem about the Borough in which the town sits and it won a prize and appeared in Poetry News:
TORFAEN
They told us Torfaen – Stone Breaker –
was the older name and that our river
only became grey – Afon Llwyd –
when they came to cut the coal.
‘You could not see it for foam,’
my father said. He remembered its speed,
just as fast as we boys found it,
taking the feet from beneath you, taking its toll.
They all but emptied our valley of magic
when they filled in the fields
between each village to form our town.
Except here, behind Ty Pwca,
where the worn lane rises in its steep bend
[snipped for possible copyright issues]
--
The town deserves better than hype and bluster.
If there's a genuine 'move of God' on, then fine. But it sounds very much like the same old, same old.
I do go down to South Wales regular. P'raps I oughroo Mystery Worship it like?
[ 11. May 2013, 22:50: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
PERSONALITY ARTISTES LTD is a showbusiness to business resource for platinum calibre artistes and world wide theatre tours, all promoted by or in association with PERSONALITY ARTISTES LTD.
As I understand it, they are still pushing him to this day.
Thanks for those insights. Can you provide any backup for his links to the agency and whether they are ongoing?
He still appears on their website:
http://www.personalityartistes.com/?page_id=80
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
The funny thing about God is that in the midst of the charlatans, entertainment succubus and the needy of various types getting together for a big shin dig, God still works in some individuals.
Like others on here, I look at the institutional aspects, in this case leadership and theology, and question, roll my eyes, and generally wish Christians wouldn't do things like this.
But, surely none of us doubt that God is as present there as God is with us at our keyboards?
"Where two or more are gathered, there will I be also." must have some reference in these situations, surely. Otherwise, that's a very limited God we have.
[ 12. May 2013, 02:18: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I just don't accept that an act of plagarism in one instance provides incontrovertible evidence of charlatanism in another.
And I haven't said so either. I've said it raises a red flag, and not necessarily a red card.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
But, surely none of us doubt that God is as present there as God is with us at our keyboards?
As present? Presumably. More present? As in 'get down here quick by minibus or plane' and 'those who have left will miss it' more present? I'm not so sure.
Either way, my issue here is more when the presence of God (or "doing the Lord's work") is invoked as a kind of trump card that somehow dispenses with the need for the leaders involved to be properly accountable to the wider body of Christ. To me, that claim demands more accountability, not less. Leaders are expected to be "above reproach". Failing to apply that standard courts damage to leaders, congregations, and the credibility of the Church - all the more so if and when extraordinary claims are being made.
And while, for the nth time, the evidence of plagiarism (which, SvitlanaV2, you simply have to click on the links in this thread to see for yourself) does not invalidate the whole thing, it does provide valid reasons for checking other claims being made. God is going to be present in reality, not in any fiction or exaggeration that may be being put about.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
The funny thing about God is that in the midst of the charlatans, entertainment succubus and the needy of various types getting together for a big shin dig, God still works in some individuals.
And she works in many, many individuals without any of the above.
The excitement, the hype and the toppling and twittering are for those who would enjoy the highs and the leaders who enjoy the fame. In my view.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Thanks Gwai - I commend your diligence. In this case, though, as it was part of a competition, the copyright is mine - it appeared in a periodical not a published collection - but even so.
To be honest, I feel a bit embarrassed about posting it as I'm not sure what it added to the discussion. I was just feeling the 'hiraeth' and a bit maudlin ... it's part of our South Walian DNA.
I don't mind you removing it entirely if you'd rather (as they say in South Wales).
It's on my blog somewhere if anyone's remotely interested. No reason why they should be, mind.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
A good friend visited the baptism service last night. He reports many coming to faith, a tangible sense of God's presence, cheering when the doors opened for entrance, prayer for healing etc. I want to acknowledge that God is moving in that place, and praise him for that, whilst remaining skeptical that we should all go and join in. If this is a revival, then I'd have thought the people of cwmbran would be moving outward in mission, not drawing all to themselves...
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Cheering and prayers for healing don't necessarily signify anything remarkable in and of themselves, nor, I'm afraid, do public professions of faith in the heightened atmosphere of a revivalist meeting ... I'm always wary about claiming whether someone is genuinely converted or not on the basis of what might be an emotional response.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating and whether that person shows stickability and continues to profess Christ, grow in grace and so on and so forth. These things take time to establish.
I've seen hundreds of people apparently profess faith in meetings over the years only for there to be very little enduring 'fruit' within a few weeks. But then, I'm no longer of a particularly 'revivalist' mindset.
A tangible sense of the presence of God? Perhaps. I wasn't there so can't comment on that - but I tend to think that these things operate on the 'soul' level ... which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some people experience a sense of the numinous in revivalist settings, others in settings where there is stained glass, choral music and a dignified liturgy.
None of these things in and of themselves 'prove' the particular presence (or absence) of God - and besides, God is never, ever absent anyway. He is 'everywhere present and fillest all things.'
It could well be that these people in Cwmbran are experiencing a season of 'blessing' - to put it in their kind of terminology. But it remains to be seen whether this is anything that could be classed as 'revival' or not.
For that we'll all have to wait and see.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
Someone mention the 1904 Welsh revival?
This was oft quoted in evangelical circles in the 60s and 70s.
I think that there must have been some good things, but equally it broke Roberts' health (the leader of the revival). He was a broken man I believe after the revival.
Todd Bentley was also mentioned. I wouldn't put Bentley in a similar category to the 1904 revival by instinct. The last I heard of Bentley was he'd started work again but this time in South Africa. Take cover Africa is all I can say; Bentley appears to be a maniac and I am not sure his approach can be described as wholly Christian, in most accepted senses of the word.
This latest move of God. Well, who knows? From what I've heard it sounds fairly full of hype but that might just me being skeptical.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jenn.:
If this is a revival, then I'd have thought the people of cwmbran would be moving outward in mission, not drawing all to themselves...
This.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The proof of the pudding is in the eating and whether that person shows stickability and continues to profess Christ, grow in grace and so on and so forth. These things take time to establish.
And this. IMO, of course!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Further background reading: Ship thread from 2010 on What makes you believe there will/won't be revival? (incidentally, that thread marks the emergence of Bill Johnson and Bethel into Ship consciousness, I think).
ETA if I may quote myself from the first page thereof:
quote:
I think in some ways we are cursed by history. We look back, often through rose-tinted glasses, at past revivals and think we can spot when one is happening again. We think they are a fast track to something better when in fact they usally create as much havoc as anything else in the long run. And of course with God TV and the like a veritable industry has now grown up with lucrative markets in books, CDs and so on. I dare to think that (most) of those involved are not simply cynically exploiting this for gain, but I do think these kinds of thing create a certain pressure to hype the event.
More and more my own tendency is to look for christian experience well out of the spotlight.
[ 12. May 2013, 13:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The Welsh Revival has been mentioned here several times, Saul the Apostle. I grew up in South Wales and stories of the revival were still very much in circulation. I knew people whose parents were converted during the revival.
Nigel Wright the former president of the Baptist Union has written an interesting paper comparing the career of Evan Roberts, the leading revivalist from 1904/05 with more contemporary forms of revivalism.
I think you're right not to compare Roberts and Bentley.
The Bethel folk go on pilgrimage to Roberts's grave and lie on the tombstone in order to 'absorb the anointing' and so on. Most unseemly.
Roberts burned himself out - you can't sustain unstinting revivalist activity for 18 months without it taking its toll. He had something of a 'come-back' in the 1950s but there's all sorts of silly stuff said about his later career.
The Revival itself was the last in a series of cyclical awakenings that characterised Welsh religious life and spirituality throughout the 19th century. It was a far more complex and nuanced phenomenon than is often acknowledged in the populist hagiographies and accounts. Sure, there was plenty of 'glory' but there was a shadier side with what almost amounted to 'ethnic-cleansing' (or religious cleansing) in some North Walian villages with Anglican families literally forced out by their non-conformist neighbours. That said, the Established Church hasn't always had 'clean hands' in the Principality either.
Most accounts of the revival are pretty reductionist but there are some good ones around.
I don't think we're comparing like with like nor dealing with the same issues here. But we'll wait and see.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical
and may even ignore any rebuke, because he may be so caught up in the mechanics of his work that he just assumes that such a rebuke is an attack of the devil.
You say that like it excuses him.
And from a later post...
quote:
However, I contend that there are a number of factors - apart from any theological ones - that count as warning signs. The plagiarism is one - at least, pending a response now that someone in the church has been made aware of it. Taylor's apprent ongoing contract with a promotional agency, which seems rather at odds with his ministry functions and responsibilities, is another.
If he or the trustees of the church don't see fit to address that kind of concern, I think the structure of this "revival" is fundamentally unsound.
I am certainly not in the business of making up excuses for immoral behaviour. But I am in the business (or hope I am) of getting things into perspective within the context of a morally imperfect and broken world, in which God acts through the agency of his grace and mercy.
I have just watched part of a sermon by Richard Taylor on YouTube. He makes the point that we should not surround ourselves with 'negative people' and believe the labels that such people put on us. He then recounts what a legal official said to him in his days as a drug addict in Llanelli in the early 1990s: "I remember the clerk of the court in Llanelli magistrates who looked me in the eye and said to me, 'You are nothing but a scumbag and you'll never amount to anything.'"*
Now he says that he has "shut the door" on those kinds of opinions of him, and, yes, in one sense I believe him. But while I certainly believe that "in Christ we are a new creation", there is still a certain amount of psychological fall-out from the past, which is something Richard Taylor obviously recognises, otherwise there would no point to the message of this sermon. There would be no need to exhort people to make a conscious decision to "shut the door" on negative 'labels'.
The reason I am saying this, is not to make up excuses for him, but to try to understand his psychology, and why, because of his determination to fight against his past, he may be quick to dismiss certain types of valid criticism. Is this necessarily always a characteristic of someone who is wilfully deceitful, and knows full well that he is cynically exploiting others for personal gain? No, I don't think so. It can also be the characteristic of someone who is vulnerable and who, despite his triumphalism, may be struggling with deep and subtle problems from the past. This is not to deny the work of God in his life, but to acknowledge that sanctification is a process, for which patience and understanding is required.
So I don't think that a failure to respond to criticism concerning plagiarism (and I anticipate that he will probably not respond, and I will be wonderfully surprised and delighted if he does) necessarily means that we can conclude that he is a deceitful person. He may not respond because of his deep personal need to be 'positive' and may interpret certain criticisms - especially from outside his church family - as an attack on him, in other words, it's just the devil having a go, and nit picking about something, in order to draw him away from the important work of God.
If we want to go down the route of criticising Christians in this way, then Richard Taylor is a saint compared to say, Luther, who reviled the Jews, Calvin, who oppressed those who disagreed with his theology and, yes, even William Carey ("the father of modern missions") who was quite prepared to abandon his pregnant wife (with their sixth child) to go off to India for two years. I would like to suggest that using the "will of God" and the "urgency of world mission" to justify effectively abusing your own pregnant wife (and 'abuse' is the correct word to describe abandonment - especially abandonment of a highly vulnerable, confused and understandably distressed woman**, who was led to believe that she had married a local pastor and not a missionary) is far worse than a hyped up charis/pente preacher lifting some text from the internet to put on his blog!
Again, this is not to excuse Richard Taylor, but it is to understand him, and most of all get things into perspective. We should hold ourselves to a high standard. The trouble is though, that that high standard condemns a great many (if not all) prominent church leaders.
Therefore, I am not convinced that this plagiarism issue can enable us to discern whether the goings-on at Victory Church are of God or not, or whether Pastor Taylor is a deceitful man or not.
* Quoted under the fair use doctrine. (In case anyone asks!)
** Who has been unjustly reviled by various 'pious' writers over the years.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think you might be onto something EE. I also think that we're all damaged in some way - Richard Taylor in one way, the rest of us in others. But we're all damaged goods.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Eutychus
You'll be very happy to know I've read your links, and it does look like plagiarism. (I completed a research degree last year, so I should know what plagiarism entails!)
quote:
I'm a bit alarmed by the pastor's biography. 'Damascus road' turnarounds of that nature aren't impossible, but I think the claims call for some close scrutiny.
To be fair, the text doesn't say that his conversion was instantaneous. His experience with the Holy Spirit and his 'encounter with Jesus' could have occurred after having developed ongoing, meaningful contact with a local church, or as the result of considerable witnessing by Christian friends. The details are left unclear. True, the pastor who becomes a Christian after living a rough criminal life is a bit of a cliché, but the more commonplace alternative seems to be pastors who are rather middle class, either by upbringing or by assimilation. On balance, a few more from his background wouldn't hurt.
Is this a 'real' revival? If it isn't, that'll make this man's church like every other church most of us know, so it would be hard to criticise him for that. I'm aware of the issues around mass conversions, altar calls and such things, but I doubt that many of these potential backsliders would have been happy enough with Anglo-Catholicism or MOTR Methodism if only this man's devious revivalistic methods hadn't come along to distract and then disillusion them first! Stiil, I was interested to read Gamaliel's comments about the anti-religious backlash that followed the Welsh Revival.
[ 12. May 2013, 17:40: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I think you're right, SvitlanaV2. I've not heard enough, as yet, to determine whether the people are these meetings are simply spiritual-tourists from other charismatic fellowships or people from my home-town. I'd be interested to find out.
I think that revivalist religion does flourish best in particular socio-economic and demographic contexts - but it's not as simple as that. I know of an inner-city Anglo-Catholic priest in a run-down town not a million miles from where I write who is doing a sterling work with lower socio-economic groups.
As for the backlash against revivalism in Wales - yes, there was certainly that. The revival was very pietistic and whilst stories or pubs closing and beer being poured down the drains and pit-ponies no longer understanding their minders because they'd stopped swearing are the stuff of urban myth - there was an element of that there.
The revivalists took a very dim view of sport, for instance and dissuaded many talented sportspeople from expressing themselves on track or field because they felt it interfered with the prayer meetings and so on. They missed a trick. They could, as in other parts of the country, have got involved and helped run the sports activities and so on and thereby developed a more holistic approach.
As is ever the case, the Revival hardened as many as it softened.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think you might be onto something EE. I also think that we're all damaged in some way - Richard Taylor in one way, the rest of us in others. But we're all damaged goods.
Gamy, ISTM that you make an excellent case for the scriptural ministry of episkope (tr. oversight), whether that be exercised hierarchically or collegially in any particular tradition.
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
What fascinates me is the rapid rate of secularisation in Wales compared to England. From what I've read, dechurched people are especially numerous in Wales, whereas in England a higher number would be unchurched. In other words, English families would have given up on churchgoing several generations sooner than the Welsh ones.
In the early noughties I studied in Swansea and worked there briefly (as did my younger brother, except that he's still there) and I was surprised at how many abandoned churches there were near the city centre. In the West Midlands they'd have been knocked down or converted ages ago. Maybe this is now beginning to happen.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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