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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Revival in Cwmbran?
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Well hello, Polly ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
There seems to be the usual either/or debate going on within this thread.
What, in your view, are the "either" and "or" positions?
quote:
I long for God to move powerfully by his Spirit in my nation where any people seek Jesus and are transformed where Shalom is demonstrated in all spheres of life.
Amen. But I think that this longing can in many cases override people's critical faculties and let wolves and opportunists have a field day.
quote:
The stories from Wales ( and the Pastor there has been praching at my parents church in Mid Sussex this week)
I'm not sure which church that is, but if you read the top of the thread you'll see that I initially read what Andy Robinson of King's Church Horsham had to say about Taylor based on the latter's blog.
That's how I went on to find out that at least two entries on Taylor's blog were plagiarised, i.e. material not written by Taylor being passed off as his own.
The point I'm making here is that one of the ways deceivers operate is by riding on the back of recommendations from people we trust. From your above statement, it seems to me you're inclined to grant Taylor your trust because he's preached at a church that you respect.
In normal circumstances that would be good enough, but these are not normal circumstances. Firstly, because extraordinary claims are being made, and secondly, because there is hard evidence that Taylor is a plagiairst, so the blog which others were looking at to form their opinion of him was deceitful.
I therefore think that the time for him being quote:
given the benefit of doubt until we have evidence to state otherwise.
is over.
The standard response to this is "God uses flawed people" and "we all make mistakes". Yes he does and yes we do, but that is no excuse for putting up with it. And what is important is not so much the mistakes people make as how they address them.
When I discovered the plagiarism I first called and then wrote to a trustee of Victory Church to draw their attention to it. Since then, they have pulled the blog. As far as I'm aware, to date they've made no other statement and not got back to me. Rather than coming clean about the issue, this looks like an attempt to cover their tracks.
I don't think plagiarism is a trivial issue, still less so in a context where faithful documentation is important, and that their apparent failure to treat it with the seriousness it deserves offers plenty of reasons for healthy scepticism and concern.
And to Mudfrog, with whom I've cross-posted, to me the issue here (again) is not whether or not God answers prayer but whether, in this particular hyped-up context, there is proper documentation of everything claimed from the platform.
[ 18. May 2013, 17:39: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
A further reply to the answer I gave the honourable gentleman a moment ago: I haven't analysed what happened that night and I suppose there are indeed many of the 'Sadducean persuasion' who will question whether this did happen or 'by what (medical) authority' this healing can be counted as genuine.
My wife's testimony was 'I don't know ...but once I had arthritis and now I dance!"
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
A further reply to the answer I gave the honourable gentleman a moment ago: I haven't analysed what happened that night and I suppose there are indeed many of the 'Sadducean persuasion' who will question whether this did happen or 'by what (medical) authority' this healing can be counted as genuine.
My wife's testimony was 'I don't know ...but once I had arthritis and now I dance!"
And that's great. I'm genuinely pleased for you, Mudfrog, and for your wife too. Don't take me for a sceptic, let alone a cynic; I do believe God heals miraculously today as he is documented as doing in Biblical times. I should also thank you for the gracious reply.
As for Cwmbran, once again I agree with Eutychus. I find it very troubling that they seem to have removed the plagiarised blog posts without any comment, indeed (it seems) seeking to cover their tracks instead of coming clean. That is fundamentally not fully honest, IMO.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
![[Frown]](frown.gif) I heard about this today - my friend attends the mid-sussex church that was preached at, and I was feeling excited at the thought of a sweep of energy...
oh well.
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
The stories from Wales ( and the Pastor there has been praching at my parents church in Mid Sussex this week) should be given the benefit of doubt until we have evidence to state otherwise. To scoff at reports just because strikes me as something Jesus would strongly rebuke!
However I experienced constant talk about 'revival' in the charismatic church I grew up in and spent 20 years in during the 90's. There was lots of good stuff then but I reflect upon this time and the continuous emmotional focus and driving was so tiresome. It was so intense and no opportuniity to stand back, take a breath and reflect, time to be still.
I too see lots of emotional energy used in these contexts. Simply because of the nature of them and of the hype.
What about the sense of healing when a self harmer manages to get through the moment of desire and urge without doing anything. Or the healing through the a reduction of pain by a prayer one to one. We don't hype up those stories, or risk declaring this can happen for all. God is with the smoker who quits overnight and has no cravings after prayer and coming to faith (my dad after 40 yr of heavy smoking and failed attempts to quit) but God is also in the healing of the one who faces each craving battle one by one.
When we hype up one way of God working we risk drowning out where he is working elsewhere. And risk the implication that in this example only the big meeting, pop worship etc is where God saves and heals people.
Many types of worship context can end up implying that God only works through them (even if not recognising that that is what they are saying) Afterall that is why the south wales valleys ended up with more pew space than population at certain points of history - each chapel aimed to convert people from the other denominations as well as the heathen. Because we all worship God, you in your way and I in his.
I want people to be hungry and looking for where God is moving on their own doorsteps and be ready to get hands on in those places, and find God in the messiness of lives rather than the neat box of church services, whatever the style.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
I want people to be hungry and looking for where God is moving on their own doorsteps and be ready to get hands on in those places, and find God in the messiness of lives rather than the neat box of church services, whatever the style.
I hear people saying this sort of thing, but it's never really clear what's meant by it. All Christians believe that God is there, and is concerned with their lives. The idea that we find God in everyday life is fairly unremarkable for us. But for some people, getting 'hungry' for God on their doorstep may involve travelling to experience something special that other Christians are enjoying.
These days travel is part of our everyday lives!! If I can occasionally travel to London to go shopping or attend a concert, or for my job or studies, why can't I go to Wales for a special church service, be it for healing or anything else?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
It is not that you can't take a trip to someone else, even Wales! Just that we don't need to, and I don't take well to the assumption we do which a lot of the hype works on - Get on planes, trains whatever just get here etc
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
Hello Eutychus - have you missed me??
quote:
What, in your view, are the "either" and "or" positions?
The absoluteness and polarisation of each viewpoint. For example ....healings and miracles don't happen today or the pursuit of seeing and wanting the above to occur above all else.
I see neither approach either Biblical or healthy!
quote:
quote:
Polly Posted:
I long for God to move powerfully by his Spirit in my nation where any people seek Jesus and are transformed where Shalom is demonstrated in all spheres of life.
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Eutychus posted:
Amen. But I think that this longing can in many cases override people's critical faculties and let wolves and opportunists have a field day.
[I][/I]
It is right and proper to 'test' and 'discern' all the things especially the 'extraordinary' claims but a good number are legitimate stories of how God has chosen to demonstrate something of his power and grace in certain ways.
My problem is that some people have a default button of instant distrust and cynicism. If it is truly of God then why not support it and pray a blessing upon it?
quote:
That's how I went on to find out that at least two entries on Taylor's blog were plagiarised, i.e. material not written by Taylor being passed off as his own.
In normal circumstances that would be good enough, but these are not normal circumstances. Firstly, because extraordinary claims are being made, and secondly, because there is hard evidence that Taylor is a plagiairst, so the blog which others were looking at to form their opinion of him was deceitful.
Without wanting to belittle your point about plagiarism and the concerns this example raises I would respond by my same comment above, if this is of God then....
As a Pastor myself I am only too aware of the expectations of myself. I mess up and some times I don't handle something well and other times it takes me a while to work out how to make something right. Sometimes I get things right though...sometimes!
The fact that God may choose to work through me despite my errors is always a humbling thought and I see this in scripture all the time.
There needs to be a balance between these things when we form our perceptions and observe from afar.
I would be willing to extend the same to this Pastor from Wales (forgotten his name already!!).
quote:
Eutychus posted: I therefore think that the time for him being
quote:
............................................
Polly Posted:
"given the benefit of doubt until we have evidence to state otherwise."
.............................................
is over.
On what authority or Biblical basis can you declare this?
If people are coming to Christ, if genuinely hearts and lives are being transformed for the Kingdom of God then we need to work through the crap (and there will always be some because we ARE human!) and cling on to the goodness of God.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
It is not that you can't take a trip to someone else, even Wales! Just that we don't need to, and I don't take well to the assumption we do which a lot of the hype works on - Get on planes, trains whatever just get here etc
Maybe this impulse to travel and to experience new things is part of the human spirit. Evangelical charismatics simply choose their own places to visit, instead of relying on those that were previously sanctioned by much older denominations.
Personally, I'm wary of church leaders who imply that congregations should be satisfied with what they've got rather than yearning for something more. This can sound as though they're just protecting their own interests: they don't want to lose their congregations to other churches! This may be unfair to the clergy, but they need to realise that the trend to travel and explore variety is likely to be unstoppable. Religious leaders may bemoan this spiritual individualism, but as churches weaken and can provide less and less for their members while requiring more effort, they'll need to try to understand it.
Yes, IMO we've reached the point where we all have to have our own spiritual interests at heart, where we have to focus on developing our own spirituality, because we can't really expect the clergy or other church members to have the time or inclination to help us in other than quite a superficial way. People will want to travel around, if only to hear different preaching, or to experience forms of spiritual expression that aren't practiced in their home churches.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
The absoluteness and polarisation of each viewpoint. For example ....healings and miracles don't happen today or the pursuit of seeing and wanting the above to occur above all else.
But that's a straw man. I don't think either of those positions characterises the line taken by many on this thread.
quote:
a good number are legitimate stories of how God has chosen to demonstrate something of his power and grace in certain ways.
I haven't seen a "good number" of "legitimate stories" from Cwmbran. Yet.
quote:
If it is truly of God then why not support it and pray a blessing upon it?
For me, this "outpouring" has yet to distinguish itself from Lakeland. If the gospel is preached, I rejoice, but I doubt that actively enouraging people to go is the right course.
quote:
Without wanting to belittle your point about plagiarism and the concerns this example raises I would respond by my same comment above, if this is of God then....
Then what? This is a no-brainer. They should have fessed up up. Taking the blog down with no explanation looks like a cover-up. It compounds the problem, it doesn't take it away.
quote:
The fact that God may choose to work through me despite my errors is always a humbling thought and I see this in scripture all the time.
Yes but you are clearly a reasonable sort of chap. This gets to the heart of my concern. Just because you would act with humility doesn't mean you should expect every other leader to do so, or grant them a free pass.
Just because God may be working in Cwmbran does not mean no attempt should be made to call the leaders to account or form judgements on the basis of how they respond. I see warnings about wolves and false prophets in Scripture all the time, too, but I rarely see them heeded when it matters or in an appropriate fashion.
quote:
quote:
Eutychus posted: I therefore think that the time for him being
quote:
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Polly Posted:
"given the benefit of doubt until we have evidence to state otherwise."
.............................................
is over.
On what authority or Biblical basis can you declare this?
To me the evidence of plagiarism, and, just as importantly, how it has been dealt with to date, shows that this man should not be given the benefit of the doubt. He should be answering questions about it.
quote:
If people are coming to Christ, if genuinely hearts and lives are being transformed for the Kingdom of God then we need to work through the crap (and there will always be some because we ARE human!) and cling on to the goodness of God.
Yes. I admit my perspective is limited, and I don't intend to spend much time on this, but so far, from my perspective, those responsible have shown no willingness to work through the crap as far as the plagiarism and what it implies goes. They have tried to sweep the crap under the carpet. That should not be ignored.
[ 18. May 2013, 21:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
It is not that you can't take a trip to someone else, even Wales! Just that we don't need to, and I don't take well to the assumption we do which a lot of the hype works on - Get on planes, trains whatever just get here etc
Maybe this impulse to travel and to experience new things is part of the human spirit. Evangelical charismatics simply choose their own places to visit, instead of relying on those that were previously sanctioned by much older denominations.
Personally, I'm wary of church leaders who imply that congregations should be satisfied with what they've got rather than yearning for something more. This can sound as though they're just protecting their own interests: they don't want to lose their congregations to other churches! This may be unfair to the clergy, but they need to realise that the trend to travel and explore variety is likely to be unstoppable. Religious leaders may bemoan this spiritual individualism, but as churches weaken and can provide less and less for their members while requiring more effort, they'll need to try to understand it.
Yes, IMO we've reached the point where we all have to have our own spiritual interests at heart, where we have to focus on developing our own spirituality, because we can't really expect the clergy or other church members to have the time or inclination to help us in other than quite a superficial way. People will want to travel around, if only to hear different preaching, or to experience forms of spiritual expression that aren't practiced in their home churches.
I don't want people to be satisfied with what they have. I want them to be hungry where they are and for christians and churches to be hungry all over the place.
I have experience of something that I was involved in where the web stories got completely out of synch with what had happened. I know how easy and quickly that can happen.
That's part of my caution about things I hear grand claims for.
This church in cwmbran has a history working with addicts and post-addicts. I would want to celebrate that long term ministry more than a month of hyped meetings, though God will work always.
I fear for the effect of the intense schedule on the leadership, or the pressure to keep to the hype and the expectations that people put on them. In a much much lesser way years ago this happened to me and it is easy to conform to that when there is insufficient time to personally reflect.
There is a long term ministry to nurture as well as this moment.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
...The pain simply left her, immediately, without any contradiction.
This young woman who was in so much agony she had to swivel her hips in order to walk was now dancing with me among the tables at an FGB dinner.... and she has never had a recurrence of that arthritis in her hips.
Thanks for sharing your wife's experience, Mudfrog! I'll leap in before anyone else, but is there medical evidence that your wife's recovery was thoroughly unexpected? A note to the effect of 'unexplained remission' on her medical records?
I'm really sorry to throw in questions and doubts but, as has been noted above, plenty of medical conditions do occasionally just get better. So without the evidence of a written professional medical opinion, sceptical people probably won't consider the most likely explanation for your wife's recovery to be a miraculous one. Even with medical testimony, there may well be plenty of scepticism.
There are over a hundred forms of arthritis (my partner has two – one has been in remission for several years). Many of those forms are known to go into spontaneous remission - sometimes for weeks, sometimes for months and sometimes for many years. We don't, AFAIK, have any certainty as to why but prayer is not an ever-present. (Leaving aside the elephantine room occupant of why would a loving, caring god remove suffering only after someone asked him to do so?)
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
but a good number are legitimate stories of how God has chosen to demonstrate something of his power and grace in certain ways.
I fully accept that you believe that but all it amounts to at present is a single, unsupported statement. Which stories do you offer as legitimate and what validates them as being an indisputable demonstration of divine power?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
...(Leaving aside the elephantine room occupant of why would a loving, caring god remove suffering only after someone asked him to do so?)
I'm writing an essay at the moment on this exact pachydermic subject. The deadline is a week on Monday so after then I may well start up a discussion on here to see what everyone thinks. I certainly agree that it's a big issue, and one which Christians rarely talk about.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Indeed - I have had one healing in my life, and I did NOT ask for it. It was Easter Sunday, I woke up for church and had some kind of horribly painful and gungy eye infection. Not wanting to mess around with my eyes and it being a Sunday, I was trying to find bus fare to get to the hospital (church was in walking distance then) when I had a sudden very strong smell of TCP (disinfectant) and all the pain and gunge in my eye vanished. There was no TCP in my flat, and I had no expectation of being healed. God is my only explanation. I mostly find it weird that God healed my eye infection and not someone's cancer. I have experienced the scents out of nowhere a few other times (smelling honey, frankincense and pomegranate all at separate times while just walking down the street), but not in relation to a healing.
I am not a cessationist or a charismatic - I don't believe that miracles/healings don't happen, I just think that they happen less often than people think, and usually in settings where there is no expectation or at least no hype. It's the sort of....cheering God on that disturbs me.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
(Leaving aside the elephantine room occupant of why would a loving, caring god remove suffering only after someone asked him to do so?)
Yep - or why she would choose to heal a few comfortable people who can afford the plane fare to Wales over the millions who really need intervention?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'll be preaching on Pentecost today, and I was just thinking that after Acts 2 comes Acts 3 where Peter and John heal the lame man. They didn't use him as the starting point for a "healing outpouring"; they don't appear to have attempted to reproduce or systematise this miracle. They saw the healing as a sign of something more important: God's presence and power to save.
I think that where much of the contemporary teaching and praxis (well, attempted praxis) on healing goes wrong is its tendency to see healing as the norm and as an end in itself rather than as a sign of something else.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I think there is a basic theological foundation to the idea of continuous and constant miraculous healings in the context of revival - and that is that physical healing is part of the atonement.
It isn't.
revival is all about 'what must we do to be saved?'
NOT 'What can you do to me to get me healed, regardless of my devotion to Christ?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
What about the sense of healing when a self harmer manages to get through the moment of desire and urge without doing anything. Or the healing through the a reduction of pain by a prayer one to one. We don't hype up those stories, or risk declaring this can happen for all. God is with the smoker who quits overnight and has no cravings after prayer and coming to faith (my dad after 40 yr of heavy smoking and failed attempts to quit) but God is also in the healing of the one who faces each craving battle one by one.
When we hype up one way of God working we risk drowning out where he is working elsewhere. And risk the implication that in this example only the big meeting, pop worship etc is where God saves and heals people.
This. Nicely put, Avila.
Both Mudfrog's wife's arthritis healing and Jade's eye's healing offer much food for thought.
Eutychus and Mudfrog have both made good points about the way in some groups and at some revivals healing is seen as the norm; and there's this whole theology now (name it and claim it) that the atonement absolutely guarantees us salvation from all pain and sorrow in this life, if we only ask with the right amount of faith. A dangerous doctrine IMO. Then the whole burden is on the sufferer to have faith--and if you're not healed, it means your faith is too feeble....or in some way you are unworthy.
Who is healed, who isn't, and why....such a mystery. Indeed, as Jade says, why did God heal her eye infection and not someone's cancer....
I can see the appeal of South Coast Kevin's "warfare" theory but in the end even this doesn't really explain everything. I guess we just are not going to be vouchsafed a satisfying explanation in this life...
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Pondering.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
I can see the appeal of South Coast Kevin's "warfare" theory but in the end even this doesn't really explain everything. I guess we just are not going to be vouchsafed a satisfying explanation in this life...
But that doesn't mean we should stop searching for a satisfying explanation, IMO! Not that you were saying this, Cara, but it's a view expressed by some. Indeed, one book I've been reading for the essay I am writing says wondering why there is suffering and evil in the world is 'simply inappropriate and perhaps even idolatrous'. I heartily disagree and will be saying so in my essay!
More from me on this and that 'warfare worldview' stuff in a week's time but I'll leave it for now because it's against Ship's rules to discuss assignment topics.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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beatmenace
Shipmate
# 16955
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin
I'm writing an essay at the moment on this exact pachydermic subject. The deadline is a week on Monday so after then I may well start up a discussion on here to see what everyone thinks. I certainly agree that it's a big issue, and one which Christians rarely talk about.
Look forward to reading that Kevin,
Meanwhile - won't a LOT of healings have to be classified as 'Spontaneous Remission'. There seem to be very few that defy the 'normal' medical route of healing (interested if anyone here knows of any which do) , but instead can be classed as 'supernatural' by virtue of timing, speed and circumstance - ie immediately following prayer, not because something obviously 'unnatural' takes place.
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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)
Posts: 297 | From: Whitley Bay | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm 58 - unlike Mudfrog's wife 20 or 30 years ago - and beginning to suffer chronic and acute arthritis. It will NOT go away. I am grateful for God in His tender mercies. In respite. For His providence. My diabetes will not remit. It will kill me one way or another unless lung cancer does first. And God will be with me in that and the dementia.
Jade Constable. Conjunctivitis does that. As for smelling stuff that may not be there, there are strong rational narratives on that too.
No food for thought apart from the metanarrative. Why we would want to believe otherwise.
And that's all put too harshly. Please forgive that.
As for Cwmbran: I've seen many ex-heroin addicts transfer their addiction to the conservative evangelical opiate: 'spiritual' methadone. It's NOT to be knocked in the absence of more 'expensive' therapies.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I'm 58 - unlike Mudfrog's wife 20 or 30 years ago - and beginning to suffer chronic and acute arthritis. It will NOT go away. I am grateful for God in His tender mercies. In respite. For His providence. My diabetes will not remit. It will kill me one way or another unless lung cancer does first. And God will be with me in that and the dementia.
Jade Constable. Conjunctivitis does that. As for smelling stuff that may not be there, there are strong rational narratives on that too.
No food for thought apart from the metanarrative. Why we would want to believe otherwise.
And that's all put too harshly. Please forgive that.
As for Cwmbran: I've seen many ex-heroin addicts transfer their addiction to the conservative evangelical opiate: 'spiritual' methadone. It's NOT to be knocked in the absence of more 'expensive' therapies.
Firstly I would offer my prayers for you - and so, so many who live their lives under pressures of ill-health and daily pain. My wife's healing is of course an historical event but she does live daily with conditions that require constant, large amounts of medication and strong pain killers.
We need to get away from the false teaching that the atonement provides for physical cures. "By his stripes we are healed" is literalism that has gone one stage too far, IMHO. It assumes that if the atonement provides a cure then all should be healed and have that promise to claim. As it is, the only sure and certain hope we have through Christ's atoning work is the forgiveness of sin and reconciliation with the Father.
We also need to realise one important fact - Christ did not heal everyone. Not every blind man in Judea received his sight, not every dead relative was raised, not every leper cleansed. At the Pool of Bethsaida Jesus ignored every single cripple there except the one who was always last!
The Apostle Paul was ill and had a 'thorn in the flesh' that he begged three times would be removed from him. God said 'No, my strength is made perfect in weakness.'
Sadly though, we have made the Christian faith in to a 'provider' for our needs - we are consumers and we 'take everything to God in prayer' expecting that he will give us what we ask 'tn the name of Jesus.'
Nothing wrong with that, of course, Jesus tells us to ask, seek and knock; and to ask like the woman asking for bread at midnight. We are indeed to be persistent and to ask in faith.
BUT we need to realise that the answer is sometimes NO or WAIT.
Some people might also benefit from the deep, spiritual truth that men have known for ages:
Headache? Take an aspirin, then pray.
God is not here to make our lives easy by making our back/leg.heart better.,. He can do it ]=, of course, but the truth is most of the time he chooses not to. Not because he doesn't like us but because this is a fallen world. We make the best of it and he walks beside us.
If there is a healing - from whatever source - we thank him for it and if Person A gets a healing and Person B doesn't, then we rejoice with Person A and we weep with Person B, all the time knowing that God is good and that somewhere behind the tapestry is a mass of tangled threads that we cannot possibly understand - but we are content to know that He does, and holds us in his hands.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
As for Cwmbran: I've seen many ex-heroin addicts transfer their addiction to the conservative evangelical opiate: 'spiritual' methadone. It's NOT to be knocked in the absence of more 'expensive' therapies.
Fair point.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
As for Cwmbran: I've seen many ex-heroin addicts transfer their addiction to the conservative evangelical opiate: 'spiritual' methadone. It's NOT to be knocked in the absence of more 'expensive' therapies.
Fair point.
I think Paul actually made this connection first of all (in the context of alcohol abuse):
quote:
18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit...
Ephesians 5:18
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus
Taking the blog down with no explanation looks like a cover-up.
You mean to say that they've responded, and you're still not satisfied? You think it's a conspiracy?! ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
What do you expect them to do? Crawl to you in sackcloth and ashes? Walk to Canossa on hands and knees?
It sounds to me like you've got an agenda here, and are trying to "prove a point". If I were in your position I would just be content with the fact that they bothered to listen to me at all.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
What do you expect them to do? Crawl to you in sackcloth and ashes? Walk to Canossa on hands and knees?
Well I'd expect a clarification and apology on the relevant blog posts. That might seem like overkill but isn't it important that Christians are above reproach?
I'm trying to think how I'd deal with being called out for doing the same thing. I'm sure it would be tempting to quietly withdraw the copied material but the only reason I can think of for doing that is to protect my own reputation. That's not a godly reason, IMO.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus
Taking the blog down with no explanation looks like a cover-up.
You mean to say that they've responded, and you're still not satisfied? You think it's a conspiracy?!
They've reacted, but what they emphatically have not done is responded to me.
Can you really not see the difference between admitting misconduct has taken place and simply trying to conceal the evidence without acknowledging anything at all?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Kevin -
But maybe he has repented before God. That is what really matters ("Against You, You only, have I sinned" - Ps. 51) along with the requisite action of ceasing from sin. Yes, he does have to protect his reputation, and perhaps he feels that the best way to do that is in the context of his relationship with God. It is not for us to judge how a fellow believer should deal with his sin.
(Btw, if anyone thinks that everyone should confess and apologise publicly, then perhaps he should start a thread critical of private confession - such as, for example, the practice in the Catholic Church and elsewhere?)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus
They've reacted, but what they emphatically have not done is responded to me.
Who cares whether they have responded to you?! What matters is whether they have responded to God.
With all due respect, you are not their saviour, or the one who remits their sins. And furthermore, while you may have been offended by the plagiarism, you are not really the victim of this sin either.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus
They've reacted, but what they emphatically have not done is responded to me.
Who cares whether they have responded to you?! What matters is whether they have responded to God.
It seems to me that a proper response to God would also involve reparation, in this case by correcting the mistaken impression given to others. Aside from the basic issue of politeness in acknowledging correspondence, this they have completely failed to do.
All the removal of the blogpost tells you is that the person knows they have been caught - and nothing else. On its own, it does nothing to reassure me that they have really changed, and this in an area that I see as crucial in this context: honest and faithful testimony.
[ETA and yes, I am in favour of public repentance if the offence is public, which in this case it emphatically is]
[ 19. May 2013, 14:35: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Thanks Mudfrog, including for your robust graciousness and gracious robustness in the face of me.
I must pray for your wife. Rats. That means NOW or I won't! ... Amen!
God's answer is neither no nor wait.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
if anyone thinks that everyone should confess and apologise publicly, then perhaps he should start a thread critical of private confession - such as, for example, the practice in the Catholic Church and elsewhere?
I missed this just now.
If the offence is public, which in this case it emphatically is, then yes I think that the repentance should be public. Quite how one gets from there to criticising all private confession I don't know.
[ETA looks like I didn't miss it after all. My edit didn't appear just now. Never mind. Now you have it twice]
[ 19. May 2013, 14:37: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
(Btw, if anyone thinks that everyone should confess and apologise publicly, then perhaps he should start a thread critical of private confession - such as, for example, the practice in the Catholic Church and elsewhere?)
As Eutychus said, I think it's important to respond publicly when one's wrongdoing has had a public impact. And this plagiarism surely has had such an impact.
Regarding RCC-style confession, if it doesn't prompt the restoration of and reparation for what the confessor has damaged, then I think it's missing a vital element.
Finally, on the point about who we sin against, if we're going to play Bible verse tennis, what do you make of Matt 6:12 (my italics):
'Forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us.'
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We forgive publically prior to any repentance on the part of these desperately deceived people.
Our forgiveness is implicit. But yes, we must make it explicit.
Furthermore they are us and we confess on their behalf. We are guilty of deception in the name of our deluded beliefs. We have done harm in their name.
Forgive us.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Eutychus posted:
.....................................
quote:
Polly Posted:
a good number are legitimate stories of how God has chosen to demonstrate something of his power and grace in certain ways.
.................................
I haven't seen a "good number" of "legitimate stories" from Cwmbran. Yet.
One of the things that would cause me concern when anything like this happens is when a church or individual promotes self, the 'look at me/us' scenario and does not example humility.
Lakeland was like that and the fact that the rumours about Todd Bentley were surfacing regularly and then were confirmed only supported any other worrying signs that arose.
Then with some situations (again Lakeland was an example) we get the extreme extra-ordinary supernatural stuff being claimed over and above the point of the Holy Spirit coming in this way is primarily to see people repent and confess Jesus as Lord.
At the moment I don't see these warning signs come from Wales and the only things I hear are from those who have had the Pastor visit their own Church or from 2nd hand sources like we are getting from this forum.
quote:
quote:
..................................
Polly posted:
Without wanting to belittle your point about plagiarism and the concerns this example raises I would respond by my same comment above, if this is of God then....
.................................
Then what? This is a no-brainer. They should have fessed up up. Taking the blog down with no explanation looks like a cover-up. It compounds the problem, it doesn't take it away.
Again without taking away from the seriousness of plagiarism we also have to balance the fact that there are degrees of plagiarism. I have no idea of what the detail and extent of what was done but I still don't think that it should be used to dismiss the point being made that many people are coming to Christ. I have no evidence to support this just what I have read on the Victory Church's website and people I know who have heard the pastor preach. Maybe there will be more reflections to either support or warn against in time.
In addition we simply don't know if the stuff you found has been repented of in humility or not. This may have been done publicly during a service or in a more private setting. It may not have been done at all. But surely that is between the person concerned and God and just because we don't get the response does not qualify or disqualify God coming in grace and power.
quote:
HughWillRidmee
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
but a good number are legitimate stories of how God has chosen to demonstrate something of his power and grace in certain ways.
.................................................
I fully accept that you believe that but all it amounts to at present is a single, unsupported statement. Which stories do you offer as legitimate and what validates them as being an indisputable demonstration of divine power?
"Indisputable"?? You won't even get that from scripture so what makes you think I can do this??
One of my lecturers used to ask the questions "What kind of God?"
Do I believe that in moments in history he has and will continue to send the Holy Spirit in power and grace to speak to a community/nation? Absolutely.
Do I believe that he will use supernatural means to draw people to himself? Absolutely
If such things happen and I am directly involved will I pray and seek wisdom and discernment and test? You bet but if after this I feel that the situation is of God I want to be part of it not put myself outside of.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
The Pastor Richard Taylor was on Radio Wales' religious slot this morning all things considered like lots of radio bits on iplayer you get the end of the news before it starts.
Also there was a Baptist church historian (Karen Smith, I had some lectures from her back when..) and on line from London Andy Frost a Methodist involved in the Pentecost Festival (and son of the late Rev Dr Rob Frost who did a lot to get methodists into mission)
Got tip off from parents who listen most weeks and who I had been asking about what they had heard since in a pentecostal church just down the road in Newport (the answer to that was nothing)
(PS blogged some thoughts last night, but no more than have said already here)
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
This church in cwmbran has a history working with addicts and post-addicts. I would want to celebrate that long term ministry more than a month of hyped meetings, though God will work always.
Well, I'm glad to hear that this church has got something right!
Maybe this kind of worthy ministry should be left to the sensible, quiet churches in the neighbourhood, thus allowing the wacky churches to indulge in crazy, hyped-up stuff to their hearts' content, without fear of influencing any seriously vulnerable people. It's a bit much to expect one or two charismatic congregations to satisfy everyone's demands and expectations.
I can imagine that trying to maintain the level of intensity that's expected in some of these churches can lay quite a heavy burden on the leaders, as you indicate. Unfortunately, one widespread alternative to that pressure seems to be a laid-back respectability that grows accustomed to managing decline. Toning things down, as you suggest, may have some advantages, but there will also be disadvantages. In any case, as has already been said, 'revivalism' usually peters out in its own time; all you have to do is wait.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
One of the things that would cause me concern when anything like this happens is when a church or individual promotes self, the 'look at me/us' scenario and does not example humility.
I found this about five minutes ago (before you posted!) on Taylor's Twitter feed from May 16:
quote:
I will be staying is Sussex [sic] and speaking at the same venue again tomorrow night as the Holy Spirit as [sic] much more to do here.
The implication is that if he doesn't stay in Horsham, neither will the Holy Spirit. It seems to be as clear an example of self-promotion and not "exampling humility" as you could wish to find. I swear I don't go looking for these things!
quote:
Again without taking away from the seriousness of plagiarism we also have to balance the fact that there are degrees of plagiarism. I have no idea of what the detail and extent of what was done
The two and only blog posts I checked were both extensively plagiarised. They were not complete copy-pasting but slightly tweaked, which means the person responsible had to know what they were doing. This is passing others' work off as your own and it is a serious breach of ethics by anyone involved in public speaking (let alone christian ethics). quote:
I still don't think that it should be used to dismiss the point being made that many people are coming to Christ.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) I'm sorry, I just completely don't get this. The implication of your statement is that if many people are coming to Christ, any related misconduct simply doesn't matter.
In some quarters, "People are coming to Christ" seems to have become a sort of super-spiritual nuclear option which trumps any other question, reservation, objection or criticism*.
It should be the opposite! The more a "great work" is alleged to be going on, the more the leaders should be, and be seen to be, above reproach.
Have the Church's ethical standards fallen so low that we don't dare to question anyone's practices in the fear that if we do, nobody will ever come to Christ again? It's not much wonder there are so many charlatans out there. They just have to say they are doing the Lord's work (and probably add that "the Lord has taught them not to respond to criticism") to get a free pass. Lord have mercy on us. quote:
In addition we simply don't know if the stuff you found has been repented of in humility or not. This may have been done publicly during a service or in a more private setting. It may not have been done at all.
The misconduct is blatantly public. As I've pointed out, at least one leader from Kings Church Horsham used the blog, on which Taylor passed off as his own material that was written by others, to form his opinion of Taylor - and it seems Taylor has enjoyed an extended stay at his church as an end result of this.
I question the authenticity of any repentance of this which does not involve some form of public statement in a medium liable to be read by the same people who read his blog. Is this really so unreasonable to expect? quote:
But surely that is between the person concerned and God
Not when it involves others being misled, no. quote:
and just because we don't get the response does not qualify or disqualify God coming in grace and power.
again. The issue is not whether or not God is coming in grace and power, the issue is whether the leadership is worthy of our trust. God coming in grace and power is not an endorsement of the leadership and is not an excuse not to examine their credentials.
Besides, we can argue until the eschaton about whether God is coming in grace and power, whereas my allegation of plagiarism rests on objective evidence which is (or was) there for all to see. I think a lot of people prefer to stay in super-spiritual never-never land rather than look at the facts.
==
*As I have mentioned elsewhere, I know an evangelistic organisation whose trustees know the central testimony is a lie, who trot out this argument, apparently in all seriousness, when faced with the evidence.
[ 19. May 2013, 16:06: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
A couple of thoughts from the radio conversation (link above)
over ten thousand people have been through the church - how is that calculated, how can it possibly be done? If it is based on capacity times meetings then you will always be flawed by the returners.
evidence of it being the holy spirit is that people are coming from so far away even flying in - but isn't that because of the stories being told? Has anyone had a direct HS prompt to travel without that.
Interesting conversations - Andy Frost comes from a mildly charismatic background and keen to sound positive about it. Karen Smith more comfortable to ask questions, and presenter Roy Jenkins always happy to probe yet without doing a Paxman.
Interesting to hear others thoughts about it, as input with the pastor not in preaching mode as in most of the website material.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Superb Eutychus. Keep up the GOOD work. You are a TRUE prophet.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
@ Eutychus
In relation to your Twitter feed find I think you are reading far too much into what you have quoted. There's nothing there!
More importantly I am not disagreeing with anything you state about the expectations of Church leaders and ethical behaviour.
Neither have I suggested that Taylor be given a free pass and yes if he has not done so I would also suggest that he be held properly accountable for the plagiarism.
For me I am being asked to judge a situation on purely second hand opinions where no-one here has directly had any experience of the Victory Church or Taylor.
My point is that we should just wait and see before casting stones ( I am sure Jesus had something to say about this!). It could just be God is using the whole situation for his honour and glory!
After speaking to my folks tonight (my dad tends to be more sceptical about these things than my mum) but both said that what struck them when Taylor spoke at their church this week was that Taylor simply was not interested in self hype and just focussed on the gospel.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
In relation to your Twitter feed find I think you are reading far too much into what you have quoted. There's nothing there!
quote:
what struck them when Taylor spoke at their church this week was that Taylor simply was not interested in self hype and just focussed on the gospel.
Everyone will have to make their own mind up, but I cannot make that tweet square with that appraisal. I can't imagine you tweeting in those terms.
You may also have missed the fact brought up earlier in the thread that Taylor is on the books of a promotional agency called Personality Artistes which describes itself as quote:
a show business to business resource for platinum calibre artistes and world wide theatre tours
Cognitive dissonance is a sneaky thing. If the emphasis is on the gospel, why do we need to go to Cwmbran?
As to waiting to make up our minds, I'm not sure what the appropriate waiting time is, but for me as I've said, the plagiarism issue, and how it has (not) been dealt with, raises a red flag, if not a red card, and it's one that should not be ignored or dismissed.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus
It seems to me that a proper response to God would also involve reparation, in this case by correcting the mistaken impression given to others.
Except that they have corrected the mistaken impression by taking the blog down. But it seems that this is just not good enough for you, and you want to rub their noses in it. Frankly, I am not surprised that they have acted in this way, given the many people who undoubtedly are just observing their ministry and waiting to find fault.
It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Richard Taylor and his trustees could actually feel afraid that if they make a big deal about their error, then some kind of legal situation could ensue. After all, given the sort of attitude you have displayed on this thread, it's not far fetched to think that there are people who are just out to trash his ministry. Some of these may wish to take their grievance further. So I would suggest that Richard Taylor has been very wise to give you a wide berth, and yet also to listen to and act on what you have pointed out. In fact, I rather respect him for his insight and sensible approach. If I were in his position, I certainly wouldn't want anything to do with someone like you, which is further confirmed by your truly outrageous interpretation of his tweet:
quote:
I found this about five minutes ago (before you posted!) on Taylor's Twitter feed from May 16:
quote:
I will be staying is Sussex [sic] and speaking at the same venue again tomorrow night as the Holy Spirit as [sic] much more to do here.
The implication is that if he doesn't stay in Horsham, neither will the Holy Spirit. It seems to be as clear an example of self-promotion and not "exampling humility" as you could wish to find. I swear I don't go looking for these things!
That is not the implication at all! Given the limitations of Twitter - as you must surely know - it is not possible for us to qualify everything we say. It is obvious that he is not talking about the Holy Spirit in general, but rather the work of the Holy Spirit in the context of his ministry. Since you are so keen to have direct correspondence with Richard Taylor, then why don't you ask him whether he really honestly believes that the Holy Spirit cannot work other than through him. I suspect that he would be utterly horrified at that idea.
If a preacher feels led by the Holy Spirit to convey a certain message, and knows that he (the preacher) is likely to move on, but then changes his mind and sticks around, because he feels that God is saying that He hasn't finished working through this ministry and message, then what is wrong with that? All it is saying is that God works in different ways in and through different people and ministries, and the particular way God has been working through him is continuing, and therefore the pastor feels a responsibility to stick around.
Yes, I suppose at a stretch it is conceivable that one could see pride in this tweet (especially if one is looking for it), but that is by no means the only plausible interpretation. I think the more godly way is to give people the benefit of the doubt when we are faced with ambiguity.
As for my reference to private confession: that is a perfectly good point. All sin impacts other people in some way or other, but the practice of private confession shows that not all sin has to be confessed publicly - otherwise why bother with the confessional?
And as for Matthew 6:12 - what is your point? If you think that Richard Taylor has sinned against you, then forgive him. What's the problem?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
they have corrected the mistaken impression by taking the blog down.
I repeat: all that shows is that they know they have been caught.
I spend plenty of time around convicted criminals and I can tell you that there is a world of difference between action taken solely because you have been caught red-handed on the one hand, and genuine regret and repentance on the other (I see instances of both). So far, here, I see plenty of evidence of the former and none at all of the latter. quote:
you want to rub their noses in it.
I disagree. This is not rubbing anyone's nose in anything, it's brotherly confrontation, and I don't think there's enough of it about*. If I was really out to get them, I would have already gone to the original authors (which somebody on here suggested). I don't see how the trustees not talking to me is supposed to prevent me doing so; it's simply rude not to have replied (it also suggests to me the possibility that they are aiming for maximum deniability).
What I would like is for there to be a clear admission that the behaviour was wrong, and that is what has not been forthcoming. quote:
After all, given the sort of attitude you have displayed on this thread, it's not far fetched to think that there are people who are just out to trash his ministry. Some of these may wish to take their grievance further.
You can rest assured that if this outpouring gains any more media traction, and there is any dirt to find, the media will find it and be far less gentle in how they handle it than I have been. I am completely at a loss to see how covering up misdemeanours on the part of a christian leader is supposed to be beneficial to anybody, in the long run. quote:
your truly outrageous interpretation of his tweet
Let me have another go. quote:
I will be staying is Sussex [sic] and speaking at the same venue again tomorrow night as the Holy Spirit as [sic] much more to do here.
Taylor announces he will be speaking again at the same venue due to his conviction that the Holy Spirit has much more to do there. I will freely admit to hyperbole in my gloss of this (he is not claiming a total monopoly on the Holy Spirit), nevertheless the implication is clear that the distinctive way the Holy Spirit is working in the context of this outpouring (and bear in mind all the excited statements about it) requires his personal presence for an additional evening at that venue.
I submit that this runs contrary to the assertion quoted by Polly that he is self-effacing in his ministry.
The self-effacing thing to do would be to not tweet this information at all, or simply to say "will be staying an extra day in Sussex" (which would take fewer characters). quote:
Since you are so keen to have direct correspondence with Richard Taylor, then why don't you ask him whether he really honestly believes that the Holy Spirit cannot work other than through him. I suspect that he would be utterly horrified at that idea.
Perhaps he would, but that does not detract from my claim that the above tweet does not square with the claims of self-effacement put forward by others. quote:
And as for Matthew 6:12 - what is your point?
It wasn't me who quoted that verse, so I don't have a point to make.
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*If you think I'm going to post here only material that suits what you perceive to be my destructive agenda, you don't know me very well. If I get word from Cwmbran, the first thing I'll do is post it here and respond accordingly. If you don't believe this, I invite you to take a look at a thread where I was doubtful about a healing testimony, contacted the person concerned, and got an answer I didn't expect, which I posted, with the person's permission, here [full disclosure: there is a postscript to this story which I did not share on the Ship. It does not invalidate the testimony at all but raises further interesting questions]. I'm after truth and integrity, and if it ends up making me look like an outspoken, arrogant idiot, then so be it.
[ 19. May 2013, 18:46: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You may also have missed the fact brought up earlier in the thread that Taylor is on the books of a promotional agency called Personality Artistes which describes itself as quote:
a show business to business resource for platinum calibre artistes and world wide theatre tours
Cognitive dissonance is a sneaky thing. If the emphasis is on the gospel, why do we need to go to Cwmbran?
[/QB]
Yes I did miss this but in what context is he "on the books"?
I think you are pre-judging before you have proper knowledge of what is exactly going on.
Eutychus - I get it that you are not keen (mildly putting it ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) on the Victory Church and that for reasons previously mentioned you have just cause to be suspect in regards to a lot of the charismatic church scene but maybe standing back rather than casting judgement is more helpful.
If I get the opportunity I will 'see for myself' but I can't dismiss something like this out of hand on what you have said because maybe just maybe God is in this. To declare otherwise could end up foolish but I will always use discernment rather than run with arms open wide.
BTW no one is promoting going to the Victory Church and there is nothing out of the ordinary on their website just a page for visitors which is very common for church websites.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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wishandaprayer
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# 17673
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Posted
Eutychus -
I don't know you, but I have followed your story for years, literally. I am amazed by it and the grace that I see in your postings throughout this site, especially given what you went through.
I am still in two minds about what is happening in Cwmbran, largely leaning on the side of heavily skeptical about it. The plagiarism does not at all surprise me, after all we know that many Christian books nowadays are ghost written (though it's not the same thing), and the minute something controversial comes up, the blame is shifted to the ghost writer.
The report of a man who many people have known in a wheelchair being healed, as the start of this "revival" is interesting to me, because it's such a "visible" healing. Man couldn't walk, now can. The skeptical part of me wonders why this hasn't been reported further in press.
However, I do want to add two things on the positive side. Firstly your interpretation of his tweet:
"I will be staying is Sussex [sic] and speaking at the same venue again tomorrow night as the Holy Spirit as [sic] much more to do here."
We could come at this from another angle - he is wanting to stay and speak at the venue for a second night because he believes the Holy Spirit has much more to do there, regardless of whether he stays or goes, therefore he chooses to stay. Maybe even in him. That puts him in a more favorable light.
Another thing I have heard reported (albeit secondhand), is that they rejected the approach of God TV to broadcast the services. This may just prove to be a shrewd move - God TV being largely regarded as crackpots across most sectors - but it could also be a genuine move by the church, and indeed this pastor, to keep things authentic.
I have no issue with what you've written so far, but wanted to submit that there may be another side to this.
Personally, I want to see the Wheelchair healing substantiated, this would be an easily medically verifiable healing, I imagine.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
Yes I did miss this but in what context is he "on the books"?
Most charitable explanation is that he has been a regular on BBC TV, for instance, and finds it more convenient to have an agent handle his bookings. But as someone else posted on this thread, that is still, in my view, a dangerously exposed place to be in for one's ego and an odd place, on the face of it, for a Bible college principal. quote:
I can't dismiss something like this out of hand on what you have said because maybe just maybe God is in this.
For the zillionth time, I have never said God is not in this. What I have said (about a zillion times) is that if God is in this, that is a reason for the leadership to behave a whole lot better than they have over the plagiarism issue. God being in it is an argument for more investigation and thoroughness, not less.
As you know I have plenty of personal reasons to be sceptical, but I wouldn't rule out God working in it. But God working in it is no excuse for not pushing for better behaviour. quote:
BTW no one is promoting going to the Victory Church
In this post Avila reports on their live stream and mentions an exhortation to "come here whether by minibus or plane". I took that to be a quote from the stream, if I'm mistaken please correct me. I could go through the blogosphere or twitter stream with other examples but I'd probably be accused of being biased...
wishandaprayer thanks for your words and perspective. Good point about the wheelchair testimony. If it's authentic, praise God, and I say that just as wholeheartedly as everything else I've posted here.
[ 19. May 2013, 19:23: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus
[QUOTE]I can't dismiss something like this out of hand on what you have said because maybe just maybe God is in this.
For the zillionth time, I have never said God is not in this. What I have said (about a zillion times) is that if God is in this, that is a reason for the leadership to behave a whole lot better than they have over the plagiarism issue. God being in it is an argument for more investigation and thoroughness, not less.
In fairness I have (for the zillionth time!) not argued for less accountability or against being discerning but feel we should have a framework of grace and not a legalistic one which is what you seem to be suggesting.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
we should have a framework of grace and not a legalistic one which is what you seem to be suggesting.
I'm really not sure what you mean by that. What is my "legalistic" framework, and what "framework of grace" would you prefer?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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