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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Revival in Cwmbran?
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Polly
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# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
we should have a framework of grace and not a legalistic one which is what you seem to be suggesting.
I'm really not sure what you mean by that. What is my "legalistic" framework, and what "framework of grace" would you prefer?
Ok - I'll see how this goes.
Your language and insinuation has been towards Victory Church that because of your investiating their claims are not legitimate. That before you can consider anything they say they must clarify the situation in regards to the plagiarism.
I'll admit that this is not something you have said or stated but the implication is there and no more or less so than you were willing to give to the tweet you have previously posted.
My point is that I don't necessarily feel Victory Church need to tick boxes in regards to the plagiarism matter in order to say they are experiencing a genuine move of the Spirit.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
Your language and insinuation has been towards Victory Church that because of your investiating their claims are not legitimate. That before you can consider anything they say they must clarify the situation in regards to the plagiarism.
I think it would be fairer to say that the plagiarism issue (and how Victory Church have dealt with it) has made Eutychus particularly wary of the claimed healings and miracles.
The point being that extraordinary claims require a greater level of (a) integrity on the part of those making the claims, and (b) scrutiny on the part of everyone else.
I think there's been a sense on this thread that we should actually reduce our wariness when people make claims of the Lord being at work powerfully.* I'm with Eutychus; this is a dangerous approach which opens Christians up to mockery should the claims not stand up to scrutiny, and it can also lead to interested Christians having hyped up expectations followed by disappointment and bitterness.
*I don't think anyone's used this exact phrase but it's the idea that we shouldn't 'quench the Holy Spirit' with questions and doubting.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
Your language and insinuation has been towards Victory Church that because of your investiating their claims are not legitimate. That before you can consider anything they say they must clarify the situation in regards to the plagiarism.
I think it would be fairer to say that the plagiarism issue (and how Victory Church have dealt with it) has made Eutychus particularly wary of the claimed healings and miracles.
The point being that extraordinary claims require a greater level of (a) integrity on the part of those making the claims, and (b) scrutiny on the part of everyone else.
I think there's been a sense on this thread that we should actually reduce our wariness when people make claims of the Lord being at work powerfully.* I'm with Eutychus; this is a dangerous approach which opens Christians up to mockery should the claims not stand up to scrutiny, and it can also lead to interested Christians having hyped up expectations followed by disappointment and bitterness.
*I don't think anyone's used this exact phrase but it's the idea that we shouldn't 'quench the Holy Spirit' with questions and doubting.
Apart from I've not advocated reducing a wariness but my point has been that we should not allow this to get in the way if this is a genuie movement of the Spirit.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Thank you for clarifying. Hopefully what follows will clear up some misunderstanding quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
Your language and insinuation has been towards Victory Church that because of your investiating their claims are not legitimate. That before you can consider anything they say they must clarify the situation in regards to the plagiarism.
My argument is that plagiarism is serious, especially so in a heady context like this (healings, large numbers of conversions and high attendance figures, perpetrator is a senior leader) in which accuracy of reporting should be of paramount importance.
It doesn't automatically invalidate their claims, but its very nature casts doubt on the credibility of those claims. That's why it's so important to get it cleared up.
quote:
My point is that I don't necessarily feel Victory Church need to tick boxes in regards to the plagiarism matter in order to say they are experiencing a genuine move of the Spirit.
And my point is that any claim by them is damaged by their proven handling of the written word. It undermines my trust in anything they say.
In some ways, I would be less sceptical if the pastor had been caught stealing or dealing drugs. It's what the specific action of plagiarism tells me about their attitude to the truth and how it's portrayed that has me bothered.
If you want to know how this fits in to what I've just posted on the Grace and Legalism thread, file it under "straining camels". To my mind, plagiarism is a camel, attempting to cover it up an even larger one.
[massive cross-post]
[ 19. May 2013, 20:56: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
my point has been that we should not allow this to get in the way if this is a genuie movement of the Spirit.
And my point is that the best means for this not to get in the way would be for them to deal with it a whole lot better than they have done so far. As a bonus, doing so would be a huge chunk of evidence that it is a genuine move of the Spirit.
[ 19. May 2013, 21:00: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
In this post Avila reports on their live stream and mentions an exhortation to "come here whether by minibus or plane". I took that to be a quote from the stream, if I'm mistaken please correct me. I could go through the blogosphere or twitter stream with other examples but I'd probably be accused of being biased...
Apologies if that sounded like it came from the stream, that minibus or plane quote is from a video on the 'outpouring update' for 8th May currenting available here
useful to listen to full piece. Mix of humble language but also claims towards the term revival and most definitely a push for people to get there in person, repeated at end, and if not via live streaming or requesting prayer cloths (theologically twitchy on that, but that's another thread.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
@Eutychus
I am still unsure to what degree of plagiarism you are talking about. You obviously are referring to specifics but I have only been able to generalise.
In addition I agree how we as leaders handle truth is important but we only have a limited perspective in this matter. My reluctance to share your voice in requesting further action is tempered with those closest to me after listening personally to *** (still can't remember his name!) say he spoke with great humility.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
@Eutychus
I am still unsure to what degree of plagiarism you are talking about. You obviously are referring to specifics but I have only been able to generalise.
It is further up the thread if you actually wanted to see what the facts are first.
quote:
Apart from I've not advocated reducing a wariness but my point has been that we should not allow this to get in the way if this is a genuie movement of the Spirit.
Whether it is a 'genuine move of the Spirit' can sometimes be orthogonal to the actual validity of the ministry in question. Balaam is called a 'prophet of God' yet is also damned in the New Testament.
In such cases I suspect we are called to exercise even more discernment than normal - if only because the two things can become confused in the minds of onlookers/participants.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
Further down the same page - update video for 30th April. background, story of the wheelchair healing. reference to hralings of incurable diseases every night, people coming from other churches and things happening in their churches afterwards.
Makes a point of not all healed, no guarantees etc, though does go on to talk up healings again afterwards. Towards end 'God said to me 'as long as people show up I will show up''
On page 6 of the news archive - day 4 video clip, calling especially on pastors and leaders and that people need to get there for the 'now moment'
and on 11th April another big push to get to the physical place, miracles focus, other voices too and a clip of the wheelchair carrying..
The written reports on these pages refer to specfic cases and testimonies, occasionally noted that they have asked the person to get it verified and return with info.
Not yet seen any that have done that. Did the wheelchair case get in local papers at all?
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
I am still unsure to what degree of plagiarism you are talking about. You obviously are referring to specifics but I have only been able to generalise.
As stated earlier, the blog has been pulled. If you want to see the plagiarised material as well as the original, PM me and I'll send you it.
quote:
My reluctance to share your voice in requesting further action is tempered with those closest to me after listening personally to *** (still can't remember his name!) say he spoke with great humility.
I have met not a few charming and humble characters who have done things that are so unspeakable I'm not going to post them. Perception is a wholly different category to facts. The plagiarism is an established fact that you can see for yourself.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
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Posted
Originally posted by Polly:
quote:
My reluctance to share your voice in requesting further action is tempered with those closest to me after listening personally to *** (still can't remember his name!) say he spoke with great humility.
I've listened to a couple of the live streams (in their entirety) but I guess I couldn't have caught the one where he spoke with great humility. I could overlook the 'taking authority' routine - it is a common enough affectation, even though authority is given by God, and not taken by man. Nor was I hugely bothered by him "claiming" this, and "commanding" that....but only because that is what one would expect in such circles. I didn't much care for him shouting at Jesus, however, because I think that reveals a level of disrespect which can only come from a complete misapprehension of who Christ is, or an equally perverse view of his own importance.
I was concerned with his promise that the Holy Spirit "will come on people as never before"...simply because I wasn't sure whether he was claiming inside information, or trying to hype-up expectation. "I'm going to release the fire at New Frontiers" struck me as presumptuous, while "I've already got the anointing!", appeared rather boastful. Next to my transcription of his statement "My gun is loaded!", I seem to have appended the words "arrogant git", for whatever reason.
That's not to say that there were no worthwhile aspects to his messages, but if I were to accuse him of anything, it wouldn't be humility.
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
We're still at this point: anyone who claims there 'is a movement of the Holy Spirit' [so God isn't omnipresent? He comes to some places and not others? Where, when and why?] and then the expected happens (people claim healing, etc.). No proof is offered and any suggestion that this might be yet another delusion (with still zero proven miracle healings to date) are immediately attacked as efforts to 'quench a movement of The Spirit'. There it is: the pathological tendency of some charismatics to believe that someone can speak something into truth. It's been spoken by one of their kind and is therefore, ipso facto, an incontrovertible truth.
The revelation that this preacher is a plagiarist (which is deeply dishonest and illegal practice) simple doesn't factor.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
At almost precisely 7:35pm on April 10, 2013 the heavens opened over Wales, in the town of Cwmbran in particular.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) At almost precisely...
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
"Inaccurate prophets are to be stoned to death."
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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wishandaprayer
Shipmate
# 17673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
At almost precisely 7:35pm on April 10, 2013 the heavens opened over Wales, in the town of Cwmbran in particular.
At almost precisely...
Do you not realise:
(19 [using the 24 hour clock] x 60 [the number of minutes in an hour]) + 3 + 5 = 1,148
April 10, 2013 = 4 + 10 + 2013 = 2,027
2,028 - 1,148 = 879
The numerological value of Cwmbran is 6,153
6,153 / 879 = 7
And we all know 7 is the number of completeness, ERGO, this is a move of God.
Yes, I'm bored this morning. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posts: 94 | Registered: May 2013
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
"Inaccurate prophets are to be stoned to death."
Using canabis?
quote:
quote:
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At almost precisely 7:35pm on April 10, 2013 the heavens opened over Wales, in the town of Cwmbran in particular.
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At almost precisely...
ETA since when can rain in Wales be said to be a miraculous? Miracles by definition are an extraordinary and inexplicable event. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[ 20. May 2013, 12:14: Message edited by: The Midge ]
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
At almost precisely 7:35pm on April 10, 2013 the heavens opened over Wales, in the town of Cwmbran in particular.
At almost precisely...
Note that this is in the dialect area where
'Now in a minute' makes perfect sense!
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
At almost precisely 7:35pm on April 10, 2013 the heavens opened over Wales, in the town of Cwmbran in particular.
At almost precisely...
Note that this is in the dialect area where
'Now in a minute' makes perfect sense!
"almost" perfect sense?
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Eutychus posted:
Curiosity has gotten the better of me so thanking you in advance for sending me the link as the link posted earlier on this thread no longer works.
quote:
The Rhythm Methodist posted:
That's not to say that there were no worthwhile aspects to his messages, but if I were to accuse him of anything, it wouldn't be humility.
Understanding that the word 'humility' was not used by myself as I have nor experience of listening to the guy but of my parents and friends who heard him speak at their church this week.
quote:
Komensky posted:
We're still at this point: anyone who claims there 'is a movement of the Holy Spirit' [so God isn't omnipresent? He comes to some places and not others? Where, when and why?] and then the expected happens (people claim healing, etc.). No proof is offered and any suggestion that this might be yet another delusion (with still zero proven miracle healings to date) are immediately attacked as efforts to 'quench a movement of The Spirit'. There it is: the pathological tendency of some charismatics to believe that someone can speak something into truth. It's been spoken by one of their kind and is therefore, ipso facto, an incontrovertible truth.
What an incredibly cynical post! In addition you have completely misunderstood what an outpouring (or whatever we want to label it) of the Holy Spirit is.
Recognising that some charismatics don't help matters because their theology is not robust and their language clumsy but this does not take away from the fact that at times and places unbeknown to humanity why God does send his Spirit upon a group/community with an increased sense of encouraging, equipping and empowering.
It's not a one time Pentecost blessing for all times.
Even after Pentecost the Spirit still came on other occasions (eg Acts 4, Acts 8, Acts 10 to name but a few).
In addition just because you have not seen anything to authenticate so called 'miracles' does not mean that it does not exist or have you become lime God and got some omnipresence??
quote:
The revelation that this preacher is a plagiarist (which is deeply dishonest and illegal practice) simple doesn't factor.
My point has always been that being a plagiarist does matter but it does not disqualify that the Holy Spirit maybe doing some great things upon that people.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
@ Eutychus
Apologies as I have somehow managed to post my response to you as a quote from you in my previous post.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Polly. Where's the baby?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
But just to balance that up, sure enough his blog had a little piece on "How I deal with criticism".
The blog's been pulled, but it's still in Google's cache here.
And it's plagiarized, apparently from here, which pre-dates his blogpost. The text also appeared in print that year in a book called "The Law of Attraction" by Michael Hansbury. Google a few phrases from the list of points and you can see for yourself.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The blogpost "Final thoughts on the incarnation" in the same link appears to have been plagiarized from Bible.org (and yes it is elsewhere on the internet, clearly pre-dating Taylor's blog entry). I can't be bothered to do any more linking or research more posts. These posts date from 2009. The guy is a serial plagiarist.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
Came up in conversationn with family tonight when Mum asked if I had listened to the radio show she had tipped me off about.
Still not heard anything about it except via me, despite local and pentecostal so might expect links.
Tried archive search of online bit of local rag and total blank.
They do ask on facebook page for people to get healings verified and tell them so just posted asking if they had any yet, inc on the one at the start carrying his wheelchair. Or anyy general media reports that can be shown in testimony.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
But just to balance that up, sure enough his blog had a little piece on "How I deal with criticism".
The blog's been pulled, but it's still in Google's cache here.
And it's plagiarized, apparently from here, which pre-dates his blogpost. The text also appeared in print that year in a book called "The Law of Attraction" by Michael Hansbury. Google a few phrases from the list of points and you can see for yourself.
Oh, good grief. That's shameless. 'Here is how I deal with criticism', Mr Taylor says. 'And I got these wonderful life lessons from Chuck Gallozzi's marvellous blog', Mr Taylor does not say. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
Interesting post in that cache link from his blog 2009
quote:
My doubts come from personal observation, .... Secondly, how many of these people in wheelchairs do you know? Are they genuinely medically disabled and cannot leave the chair? Are they missing both legs? After they receive healing, are they back in the chair and ready for the next "healing" service? This is the norm of what I have seen.... I have known people with organic (real, observable and documented maladies) that go forward in these services and get "healed." They have called me with the testimony that they are completely healed! But upon in-depth questioning , I always find that they have not really been healed at all. All they are doing is "claiming" healing. ... Healers who want your money will say that this "claiming" to be healed is faith. Other's who see someone confessing a non-existent healing rightfully call it what it is - psychotic behavior!
web page
Apologies if this is too long, tried to trim it.
He is keen to ask for proof at the moment but at same time website gives testimonies with enthusiasm and no back up yet.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I can't find it right now, but I read a blogpost by some people who left the church c.2011 complaining that Taylor had changed his theological stance on a number of issues around that time.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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wishandaprayer
Shipmate
# 17673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
web page
Apologies if this is too long, tried to trim it.
The first article and the second article (which Avila quoted from) on that cached web page is plagiarised (copied wholesale with no attribution) from this page by "Jeff Patton". I'm glad to see Richard Taylor "claimed" this article as his own, although he's not willing, at this point, to "claim" healing.
Posts: 94 | Registered: May 2013
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
What an incredibly cynical post! In addition you have completely misunderstood what an outpouring (or whatever we want to label it) of the Holy Spirit is.
This is packed with assumptions. Prove your case. How can you prove that The Holy Spirit is the source of such events? To date, there is still not one single proven miracle cure from such an event. The speaking in tongues was debunked decades ago and all the quivering and barking like dogs is attributable to other social, environmental and psychological factors (and is found in other non-Christian events as well). You believe it because you believe it. Again, we have the situation so common amongst charismatics that all subjective experiences must be treated as unimpeachable truths. It's pathological behaviour.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
On the Catching the Spirit thread I said -
quote:
One of the problems with focussing on the dramatic in one place is the power that 'specialness' conveys.
I used victory church's facebook page to ask if they have had responses yet or stories that can be publicised from the Pastor's calls for those healed to get it verified.
The reply I got - from joe public not anyone church related - was...
quote:
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I'd say go there and find out. I haven't been, but if word of mouth doesn't verify it, perhaps only experiencing it will.
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That unthinking conviction comes when you think one place, or one person is especially anointed.
Even when the people concerned are encouraging that testing, followers don't want anything to dampen the story for them.
And soon it applies not just to what is said and done there but any friend of a friend of a friend version of what is said/done there.
I stress that the facebook response was NOT linked to the church but highlights the trump card 'God's working, and can't be questioned'
Last night I saw an horrific programme where unquestioning certainity in what the pastor says led an aunt to willing let her young nephew be subject to torture in the name of God's work of deliverence. branded a witch Extreme cases yes, but the potential is there where ever people fail to question and check leaders and their (our) messages.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
What an incredibly cynical post! In addition you have completely misunderstood what an outpouring (or whatever we want to label it) of the Holy Spirit is.
This is packed with assumptions. Prove your case. How can you prove that The Holy Spirit is the source of such events? To date, there is still not one single proven miracle cure from such an event. The speaking in tongues was debunked decades ago and all the quivering and barking like dogs is attributable to other social, environmental and psychological factors (and is found in other non-Christian events as well). You believe it because you believe it. Again, we have the situation so common amongst charismatics that all subjective experiences must be treated as unimpeachable truths. It's pathological behaviour.
The point is that you are equally showing a number of assumptions which total no less or no more than mine but just because these things don't fit within your limited understanding they must be all completely false.
Your accusations show that you only read what you want to as I have never asked or demanded that my views be treated as "Unpeachable truths" and I have always advocated that it is right to test everything and use discernment.
What kind of evidence do you want to see when claims of the Holy Spirit working are made? A register on google? Perhaps a database you can access or Wikipedia? Maybe something broadcast on radio?
Testimonies of people being healed whether it be physical/emotional/spiritual/psychological are simply that, a persons testimony. Many are encouraged to go see a doctor (in the circles I have witnessed anyway) and again I am unsure what you would expect from this especially as there is doctor/patient confidentiality matters.
Rather than someone who believes themselves to be a reasoned individual you come across more like the Pharisees in scripture who wouldn't believe even though it was Jesus working in their own back yard.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?
I find this bizarre reasoning.
OK. A spaceship from Epsilon Eridani 3 landed in my back garden last night. It was flown by cats. You have my personal testimony that this happened. I can describe the cats in detail if you like; the captain was a tabby with a bit of ginger.
Unfortunately the cats vouchsafed to me that they had to be careful not to leave any evidence because of the Prime Directive, so that's why I can't provide any. But they really were there.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?
I find this bizarre reasoning.
OK. A spaceship from Epsilon Eridani 3 landed in my back garden last night. It was flown by cats. You have my personal testimony that this happened. I can describe the cats in detail if you like; the captain was a tabby with a bit of ginger.
Unfortunately the cats vouchsafed to me that they had to be careful not to leave any evidence because of the Prime Directive, so that's why I can't provide any. But they really were there.
Did they leave behind a 'tangible presence' [by which I mean 'untangle presence'], an 'energy' that I can come and rub all over me and take back to my cats?
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Curse you edit window!
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
...I have always advocated that it is right to test everything and use discernment.
Yet you reject every test or discernment technique that anyone else suggests.
quote:
What kind of evidence do you want to see when claims of the Holy Spirit working are made?
A person claims to have been wheelchair bound, then healed so that the wheelchair is no longer needed. Surely that person could provide medical evidence for this claim perfectly easily. Doctor/patient confidentiality doesn't apply when the patient is the one revealing the information.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?
I find this bizarre reasoning.
OK. A spaceship from Epsilon Eridani 3 landed in my back garden last night. It was flown by cats. You have my personal testimony that this happened. I can describe the cats in detail if you like; the captain was a tabby with a bit of ginger.
Unfortunately the cats vouchsafed to me that they had to be careful not to leave any evidence because of the Prime Directive, so that's why I can't provide any. But they really were there.
Did they leave behind a 'tangible presence' [by which I mean 'untangle presence'], an 'energy' that I can come and rub all over me and take back to my cats?
They didn't say. However, if you come to my house tonight they may come again. If you really really believe in them.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
Your accusations show that you only read what you want to as I have never asked or demanded that my views be treated as "Unpeachable truths" and I have always advocated that it is right to test everything and use discernment.
So what, in your view, would constitute discernment in this case?
God can work through someone without endorsing their ministry (see Balaam above).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
Rather than someone who believes themselves to be a reasoned individual you come across more like the Pharisees in scripture who wouldn't believe even though it was Jesus working in their own back yard.
The fact is that so far, there is absolutely no evidence for healing that has emerged from this outpouring - and crucially, none for the original one that set it all off.
You argue that people are being encouraged to go to their doctors and check and that patient confidentiality prohibits further investigation. I would suggest that similar confidentiality should in that case extend to the healing itself. One is reminded of Jesus' enjoining those healed not to tell anyone. At the least the healings shouldn't be brandied about on the platform without proper verification. We have been here so many times before.
Meanwhile, there is mounting evidence piling up for the pastor being a serial plagiarist that is verifiable by anybody. The only response of the church so far has been to try and hide it. Of course this does not discount God working there, but it's hardly a ringing endorsement or grounds for recommending people get on down there.
Rejoice that the gospel is preached but keep well clear and advise others to do so too is what Paul would have said I think.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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wishandaprayer
Shipmate
# 17673
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Posted
It seems another church is taking credit for what is happening here and, in fact, traces it back to (guess what?!) the "Toronto Blessing".
Incidentally, this is the same Two Locks Church who invited Todd Bentley over in 2011. [EDIT: They invited him AFTER the "inappropriate relationship on an emotional level"]
[ 21. May 2013, 10:24: Message edited by: wishandaprayer ]
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
It seems another church is taking credit for what is happening here and, in fact, traces it back to (guess what?!) the "Toronto Blessing".
Which proves the dictum that history repeats itself, the second time as farce:
"The truth is God is behind it all and we praise Him and bless Him and together give Him all the glory. Ever since Acts two the anointing has been past from one person to another and from one generation to another."
A re-invention of apostolic succession. Presumably the usual suspects (Sister Aimee, William Branham etc) will somewhere in this chain.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
It seems another church is taking credit for what is happening here and, in fact, traces it back to (guess what?!) the "Toronto Blessing".
Which proves the dictum that history repeats itself, the second time as farce:
"The truth is God is behind it all and we praise Him and bless Him and together give Him all the glory. Ever since Acts two the anointing has been past from one person to another and from one generation to another."
A re-invention of apostolic succession. Presumably the usual suspects (Sister Aimee, William Branham etc) will somewhere in this chain.
What utter bullshit. And of course, the Toronto 'blessing' lot are getting their sticks in too. Of course, there is plenty of 'anointing' going on…
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Karl: Liberal Backslider posted
How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?
I find this bizarre reasoning.
Your reasoning is the bizarre point because it is only the others side of the debate that says if we can't disprove that they are true then they can't be!
Two people have cancer. One brain and the other lung. They both receive the appropriate medical treatment but both receive a huge amount of prayer for healing. One is cured and the other doesn't. is the one who survives only so because of medical treatment and is the one who does not survive because of the failure of prayer?
quote:
Marvin the Martian posted:
A person claims to have been wheelchair bound, then healed so that the wheelchair is no longer needed. Surely that person could provide medical evidence for this claim perfectly easily. Doctor/patient confidentiality doesn't apply when the patient is the one revealing the information.
You mean something similar to this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4902332.stm
quote:
Marvin the Martian posted:
Yet you reject every test or discernment technique that anyone else suggests.
No I haven't try reading my posts properly.
quote:
Chris Stiles Posted
Chris Stiles Posted:
So what, in your view, would constitute discernment in this case?
I have agreed with Eutychus that if there is any good coming out of a situation where individuals are turning to Christ then we say - Amen. Even if the leaders have displayed behaviour that is questionable. In addition I have recognised that although we need to be weary of such characters their lack of integrity does not disqualify from God using the situation for his purposes.
"In this case"? I have tried to speak more generally about when healings are claimed. I have never mentioned any claims from the Victory church. The only times I have commented directly is from feedback given to me from my own parents and friends who had a couple of visits from the pastor of Victory Church at their home church in mid sussex.
More generally I am more likely to be open to a so called 'move of the Spirit' if people I know and trust have had some experience of it and have come away thinking actually God could have something to do with this.
If I just hear something from a forum like this my reluctance to dismiss it out of hand should not be mistaken for I am also welcoming it whole heartedly.
The issue of plagiarism in the case of this thread is a cause of concern. I have not tried to excuse it. However the silence from Taylor towards those who have posed the questions should not be automatically treated as Taylor having not repented or not confessing to those he is accountable to. I am not sure how I would respond to someone I don't know writing to me and asking questions but I would be concerned about putting something into writing to someone I don't know nor do I have any direct accountability to. I know Eutychus is a man of integrity but would I respond to him in writing if I didn't and if he was asking questions? Possibly not.
quote:
Eutychus posted:
You argue that people are being encouraged to go to their doctors and check and that patient confidentiality prohibits further investigation. I would suggest that similar confidentiality should in that case extend to the healing itself. One is reminded of Jesus' enjoining those healed not to tell anyone. At the least the healings shouldn't be brandied about on the platform without proper verification. We have been here so many times before.
No I only argue for the situations I know about and wasn't speaking generally.
Jesus did not use the same method to heal nor did he instruct those healed to follow the same pattern afterwards. The blind man in John 9 never received instructions from Jesus to not tell anyone nor was he to told to go and visit the priest at the temple. After Jairus' daughter was given her life back Jesus simply told people to give her something to eat. In the same chapter (Luke 8) the women healed of internal bleeding was simply told "Daughter, your faith has made you well."
Care has to be made not to put God in a box and say he only works in this or that way. I agree we need to take care before making grand claims and any made must be directed with thanks to God and not seek credit or praise ourselves.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
It seems another church is taking credit for what is happening here
Love it. "All credit goes to God / we want to be given some credit for doing it first". Make your minds up guys!
My goodness, they've changed a bit from the solid Welsh Baptist church my friends attended in the 80s!
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
quote:
Karl: Liberal Backslider posted
How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?
I find this bizarre reasoning.
Your reasoning is the bizarre point because it is only the others side of the debate that says if we can't disprove that they are true then they can't be!
Not at all. My point is that claims of miraculous cures are extraordinary claims. So it's reasonable to be very suspicious of their veracity without some evidence. Extraordinary evidence, indeed. Not third hand FoF reports.
quote:
Two people have cancer. One brain and the other lung. They both receive the appropriate medical treatment but both receive a huge amount of prayer for healing. One is cured and the other doesn't. is the one who survives only so because of medical treatment and is the one who does not survive because of the failure of prayer?
You tell me. What is apparent is that on average patients receiving prayer do not reliably have demonstrably better outcomes than those who don't. You could substitute useless sugar pills (aka homeopathy) for prayer in your example but it wouldn't demonstrate a single thing. We know the conventional medical interventions for cancer work - not 100% cures, but better average outcomes than no intervention at all. The evidence for the efficaciousness of prayer unfortunately is comparable with that for homeopathy, Reiki, Crystal Healing and lots of other things that don't work.
Hence my scepticism. Would that t'were otherwise.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
quote:
Marvin the Martian posted:
A person claims to have been wheelchair bound, then healed so that the wheelchair is no longer needed. Surely that person could provide medical evidence for this claim perfectly easily. Doctor/patient confidentiality doesn't apply when the patient is the one revealing the information.
You mean something similar to this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4902332.stm
Assuming you're talking about the girl who had psoriatic arthritis: yes.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
You mean something similar to this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4902332.stm
We are mixing up two distinct issues here: the reality or otherwise of contemporary supernatural healing in general (which to my mind is a tangent or entire other topic) and the reliability of any testimony being given at Cwmbran to support the claim that God is at work there and encourage more people to attend their meetings. That's the topic at hand for me here.
quote:
we need to be weary [sic] of such characters
I don't know about 'need', but I certainly am ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:
More generally I am more likely to be open to a so called 'move of the Spirit' if people I know and trust have had some experience of it and have come away thinking actually God could have something to do with this.
The trouble with this is that it is precisely how charlatans get away with things. They abuse the trust of people we trust.
quote:
However the silence from Taylor towards those who have posed the questions should not be automatically treated as Taylor having not repented or not confessing to those he is accountable to (...) I know Eutychus is a man of integrity but would I respond to him in writing if I didn't and if he was asking questions? Possibly not.
I agree that a reply from the trustee I wrote to is not a good gauge of Taylor's repentance (although it would certainly have been the minimum of politeness).
Indeed, because this is a very public issue (blog posts read by people, including Horsham and other church leaders, to form an appraisal of Taylor and his ministry before recommending him), what matters is that Taylor acts in a way that tells that audience he has misled them, and had a change of heart. I have already said that the most upright thing to do would be to put a statement at the address where his blog was.
The facts (I have not heard anything back and that the blog has simply been pulled with no explanation) indicate that the church knows Taylor has been caught red-handed and is now trying to hide the evidence. It's appalling conduct from any organisation dealing with the public and even more so from a church and their response (or lack of it) has made it look worse, not better.
quote:
Care has to be made not to put God in a box and say he only works in this or that way. I agree we need to take care before making grand claims and any made must be directed with thanks to God and not seek credit or praise ourselves.
But Cwmbran is in effect doing precisely what you complain about. As Avila has amply demonstrated, they are claiming that God is present there in a special way and that if you're not there or leave early, you're missing out.
It's them that's putting God in a box here.
And for all the talk of not seeking credit, recent posts have shown how disingenuous that can be: "we're the beneficiaries of this sovereign move of God and aren't we humble about it".
It's like the old chorus "let's forget about ourselves and concentrate on Him"... repeated three times.
I perceive that you are afraid that if you question something that anybody claims loudly to be of God, you will be committing the sin against the Holy Spirit. I contrast this with the attitude to be found in the epistles where Paul does not hesitate, not only to rejoice generously in what he can, but also to call BS in no uncertain terms when needed.
I think the Church struggles with this sort of confrontation and needs to learn to accommodate it. It's one of my great and enduring lessons from the Ship that I'd like to see invade real life a bit more.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
How is turning to Christ measured?
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
quote:
Karl: Liberal Backslider posted
How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?
I find this bizarre reasoning.
-----------------------------------------
Polly Posted:
Your reasoning is the bizarre point because it is only the others side of the debate that says if we can't disprove that they are true then they can't be!
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Not at all. My point is that claims of miraculous cures are extraordinary claims. So it's reasonable to be very suspicious of their veracity without some evidence. Extraordinary evidence, indeed. Not third hand FoF reports.
This still begs the question to what exactly you require in order to accept any claim as there is nothing in place for anyone to refer to.
What would it take for you to accept and say "well actually I believe .... happened"?
There's alot that defies human logic when it comes to miracles of God. Some we have better understanding than others and some can be measured better than others. I'm not advocating a blind faith but neither do I accept a blind dismissal.
For example if someone claims a limb has grown out of nothing then this should be fairly straight forward to see by comparing photographic evidence.
But what about when someone has terrible back pain that has been so painful and restrictive and then they find after prayer they have more freedom and less pain?
You seem to want clear cut black and white answers but these rarely exist.
quote:
“You tell me.”
The lady with brain cancer was my mum and she had it again 10 years after the initial lot. The other lady was her best friend. They went to the same church and had the same friends pray over them.
My problem is that I don't agree that much of life is an either/or situation. We can't say that either the prayers worked more than the medical stuff nor can we say that the prayers failed my mums friend and the medical stuff was what purely cured my mum.
In fact after the 2nd brain tumour of which doctors state is incredible mum survived the first lot but it is basically unheard of and nothing short of a miracle (doctors words) that she survived the 2nd lot. How you measure this I don't know but I rest in faith that God did work healing through the situation using pray and science.
@Eutychus
I realise you have been speaking more specifically in terms of Victory Church but I have tried to be clear that I could only speak more generally.
quote:
Polly Posted
More generally I am more likely to be open to a so called 'move of the Spirit' if people I know and trust have had some experience of it and have come away thinking actually God could have something to do with this.
Eutychus posted:
The trouble with this is that it is precisely how charlatans get away with things. They abuse the trust of people we trust.
Doesn't this also depend on the level of trust we have with our family and friends and their ability to discern. Without this we would get nowhere in life and would all be paranoid?
quote:
I perceive that you are afraid that if you question something that anybody claims loudly to be of God, you will be committing the sin against the Holy Spirit. I contrast this with the attitude to be found in the epistles where Paul does not hesitate, not only to rejoice generously in what he can, but also to call BS in no uncertain terms when needed.
This is an internet forum and I communicate with individuals I barely know and so I also need to work out discernment in regards to this. On so many levels what people say here and the accusations they make have to be treated in the same way I would when I look at a situation like Victory church from afar.
There's no fear but I also have to accept that I have only heard one side of the story and judgement is not accepted but suspended until I feel I have all the facts. You may feel you have given those but it is right to wait and see.
In the meantime I have no desire to listen to his podcasts or visit the church and will pray that whatever is happening God will separate the wheat and the crap.
Posts: 560 | From: St Albans | Registered: Aug 2001
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