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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kerygmania: Fermented or unfermented?
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by NJA:
I disagree with this form of exegesis, i.e. basing doctrine on one passage and refusing to temper it by what is said on the subject elsewhere.
I didn't read it into the text.
Paul had spent 3 years with the Corinthians, they knew masses more than in this one letter. The other scriptures must be understood also.
Consider:
"Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?" (John 7:41-42)
- see how people took one scripture and jumped to the wrong conclusion.
Many others do the same with Genesis 6 & 7 that seem to preach a global flood.
The history of "Christianity" is littered with people who grabbed hold of 1 or 2 verses at the expense of others.
Ahem.
Kings need to be sober to judge legal disputes... Christians are kings...
Our ministry apprentice preached on 1 Corinthians 4 yesterday. I couldn't help thinking about NJA's kings idea when he touched on verses 8 & 9. quote:
8Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have become kings—and that without us! How I wish that you really had become kings so that we might be kings with you!
Looks like NJA needs to read 1 Corinthians! He'd then realise that the claim to ontological kingship is a very, very old expression of over-realised eschatology.
[ 21. June 2010, 08:24: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by humblebum:
I have known the transformative power and indwelling of God's Holy Spirit in my life for many years now, praise God. And just yesterday, when I got home from church by myself, rather than making myself beans on toast, I cooked myself a lamb steak in garlic and rosemary, served it with some mashed potatoes, and cherry tomatoes roasted with garlic and balsamic vinger, and served it with a glass of chilled white wine. As I sat down to eat, I paused for some moments of thankfulness to God for his good gifts to me, which I knew I could appreciate even without the opportunity of company for Sunday lunch. The white wine was no less enjoyable to me than the steak or the roast vegetables.
Heretic! Blasphemer! Everyone who has the Spirit of God knows that the proper companion for lamb is red wine, ideally a robust Cabernet Sauvignon.
You are in immediate mortal danger of eternal death unless you repent and use claret and I claim my £5.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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NJA
Shipmate
# 13022
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
... You grab hold of one verse from the end of Proverbs, and one verse about our being priests and kings, and develop a whole doctrine about growing out of "the need for" alcohol...
Nonsense, please read all my posts.
Posts: 1283 | From: near London | Registered: Sep 2007
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Well, some of us have lives...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
And some of us HAVE read all of his posts and can plainly see that he is cherry-picking scripture and inventing things with no scriptural warrant (as Numpty pointed out at the bottom of the previous page). There is absolutely nothing in scripture that says that Christians grow out of the "need" for alcohol. Or indeed that anybody's relationship with alcohol has anything to do with "need", or that, apart from ONE verse in Proverbs (probably the least trustworthy source of advice in the entire Bible), different people have different relationships to alcohol. NJA's perverse alcoholology is clearly read back into two completely and utterly unrelated verses, and is supported nowhere else. It is the clearest and most blatant example of eisigesis I have ever seen in my 30 years as a Christian.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It is the clearest and most blatant example of eisigesis I have ever seen in my 30 years as a Christian.
So you are saying this is your first NJA thread?
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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humblebum
Shipmate
# 4358
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Posted
Hey guys :-)
Sorry it's taken a while to get back to some earlier comments on this thread, but I got sidetracked, and then didn't notice the extra flurry of posts since I last chipped in:
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
As I understand it, the reason for insisting on using alcoholic wine is concern for the validity of the Sacrament. If you think of Communion as only symbolic and an act of obedience, I can't imagine substituting non-fermented grape juice for wine would be frowned upon by Our Lord!
Actually, I would have to go with Frederick Buechner on this on (who I have been meaning to quote since this thread started). From his excellent book of musings "Wishful Thinking":
quote:
Wine: Unfermented grape juice is a bland and pleasant drink, especially on a warm afternoon mixed half-and-half with ginger ale. It is a ghastly symbol of the life blood of Jesus Christ, especially when served in individual antiseptic, thimble-sized glasses.
Wine is booze, which means it is dangerous and drunk-making. It makes the timid brave and the reserved amorous. It loosens the tongue and breaks the ice, especially when served in a loving cup. It kills germs. As symbols go, it is a rather splendid one.
In other news:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Heretic! Blasphemer! Everyone who has the Spirit of God knows that the proper companion for lamb is red wine, ideally a robust Cabernet Sauvignon.
Aye, I know this, I would normally have red wine with a lamb steak. But I was in the mood for white - and it was really nice. Sue me. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ 28. June 2010, 00:00: Message edited by: humblebum ]
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humblebum
Posts: 584 | From: Belfast | Registered: Apr 2003
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Thanks for that Buechner quote--I've been remembering it since this thread started, and trying to recall where I read it.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
There is absolutely nothing in scripture that says that Christians grow out of the "need" for alcohol. Or indeed that anybody's relationship with alcohol has anything to do with "need", or that, apart from ONE verse in Proverbs (probably the least trustworthy source of advice in the entire Bible), different people have different relationships to alcohol.
Actually, there are people with a "need" for alcohol; they're called alcoholics.
And in some cases, adopting a conservative Christian view can help them overcome the addiction.
On the other hand, I know RC alcoholics currently in successful recovery, who do partake of the Eucharist in both species without relapsing ("Hey, it's not wine, it's the Precious Blood of Christ!").
I also know lots of religious people who have no serious objection to alcohol, but whose religious beliefs combined with serious practice lead them to personally abstain.
In particular, I'm thinking about a particular Baptist Church I have been involved with for over a decade. The vast majority do not drink, but it is considered a matter of personal conscience, I guess, because some do, and they don't need to hide it, even from the Pastor.
I'm also thinking of some Benedictine communities. The Rule of Benedict allows for at least wine, but many (I really don't know beyond my own limited experience and readings)either don't drink (except for the Eucharistic wine) or reserve it for special occasions. This is usually based more on practicality than moral principle: wine and liquor are expensive and usually a luxury and therefore unnecessary for persons trying to live a life of austerity.
Which leads me to mention:
NJA, if you ever somehow get to know a genuine monastic community and can say that they aren't Christians, simply because they used real wine for the Eucharist, then ... well, let's just say I'd have to call you to Hell.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
I'm also thinking of some Benedictine communities. The Rule of Benedict allows for at least wine, but many (I really don't know beyond my own limited experience and readings)either don't drink (except for the Eucharistic wine) or reserve it for special occasions. This is usually based more on practicality than moral principle: wine and liquor are expensive and usually a luxury and therefore unnecessary for persons trying to live a life of austerity.
Well, clearly the Benedictines have not historically had any fundamental objection to distilled liquor, having invented a rather famous one.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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