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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Ignorant Bigot
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Of course, it helps keeping this crisis in perspective, if one knows that problems with sexual abuse are at least as bad among non-Catholic ministers, and much worse among teachers. Perhaps one should consider it as a compliment to priests that they are being held to a much higher standard than comparable professionals. Another interesting fact is that abuse by sexual priest was to about 90% homosexual ephebophilia (abuse of adolescent boys). It appears thus that the instruction by the Vatican to dissuade candidates for the priesthood that practice homosexuality or present deep-seated homosexual tendencies, so much beloved by "liberals", was timely and appropriate to avoid such problems in the future.
[/URL]
There is really no excuse for this horseshit from an intelligent man. In an extremely short amount of time I was able to find this example study in a peer reviewed journal. There are many others.
[corrected another Hosts's botched link code. mucho host points ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ]
[ 29. December 2014, 22:01: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Ingo, have a read of the Ryan report and the Dublin report, then see if you can still manage to assert what you have said with any credence.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
There is really no excuse for this horseshit from an intelligent man. In an extremely short amount of time I was able to find this example study in a peer reviewed journal. There are many others.
Your link is utterly irrelevant. I was talking about sexual abuse by Catholic priests, in particular as revealed in the US.
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Ingo, have a read of the Ryan report and the Dublin report, then see if you can still manage to assert what you have said with any credence.
I have indeed not read those, but was referring to data from the US crisis. But upon using my search bar...
quote:
First link from Google for "Ryan report" states:
The report found that molestation and rape were "endemic" in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but instead endured frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The problem is single sex institutions not homosexuality you moron. You think the high incidence of male rape in prisons is due to masses of homosexual criminals ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
The problem is single sex institutions not homosexuality you moron.
This may be an explanation for the Irish scandal, but I was talking about the US one. US Catholic priests certainly had sufficient access to girls, in particular from the 60s on when most cases occurred. There may be some bias in the data since female altar servers were only allowed from 1983, perhaps meaning less exposure of girls earlier. But the John Jay report suggests that the most frequent context for abuse was a social event and many priests socialized with the families of victims, with grooming tactics used on intended victims. Sexual abuse from priests hence follows the usual pattern of social familiarity representing the greatest danger, rather than of opportunistic attacks within the church environment itself.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
You are less likely to get a boy pregnant. But perhaps more importantly, it is an error to try to extrapolate and adult's sexual orientation from an incident of child abuse, see here. It would make much more sense, for example, to persuade people who know they are sexually attracted to children - but at this time have no offending history - seeking ordination.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Sorry, that should read, "to avoid seeking ordination".
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Isn't there a logical fallacy somewhere in here? Most cases of molestation are homosexual, so all homosexuals are liable to molest boys?
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
You are less likely to get a boy pregnant.
Only 25% of the sexual abuse involved (the attempt of) penile penetration.
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
But perhaps more importantly, it is an error to try to extrapolate and adult's sexual orientation from an incident of child abuse, see here.
Over 80% of the abuse in general, and over 90% in hardest-hit Boston, was male-male. Almost 80% of the victims were 11 to 17 years old, thus these cases were largely hebephilia / ephebophilia (in puberty or after), not pedophilia. It may or may not be true that child (pre-pubescent) molestation has little correlation with gender preference. Yet here (early) teens were targeted, and I consider it highly unlikely per se that attraction to teens has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Typing "teenage boys" into google image search with SafeSearch switched off should provide some circumstantial evidence... Further, while there are some factors that may bias abuse towards boys (as you say, the danger of pregnancy, or as I said, the greater contact of boys with priests in the past), I do not think that this can account for the very clear preference of boys visible in the data. If this abuse was due to perpetrators with no sexual preference, one would precisely expect a gender split close to 50:50. But the actual numbers are nowhere near that.
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
It would make much more sense, for example, to persuade people who know they are sexually attracted to children - but at this time have no offending history - seeking ordination.
Dissuade, I assume. Certainly you won't be allowed to ordination with an admitted sexual attraction to children (anymore, at least...). The argument against practicing or "unlikely to remain abstinent" homosexuals as priest is of course also not based on the sexual abuse crisis, but on the general RC condemnation of homosexual acts. Yet, the US abuse scandal was largely due to priests interested sexually in (early) teenage boys, not girls. This the stats show.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Most cases are not. Ingo is talking about a v specific subset.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Cross-post obviously.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
...problems with sexual abuse are at least as bad among non-Catholic ministers, and much worse among teachers.
Do we actually know that? If so how?
NB IngoB's link points to a dead site put up by a domain farmer - is there a typo in the name?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Most cases of molestation are homosexual, so all homosexuals are liable to molest boys?
That's a fallacy, certainly. It's however not something that I have claimed in any way or form. Yet if the US Church had somehow managed to keep homosexuals out of the priesthood, then she would have avoided the majority of abuses that in fact occurred. The only chance to deny this, in spite of the data, is to claim that the sexual abuse was committed by priests with no sexual orientation, which by external circumstances were forced to target almost exclusively boys in their (early) teens. No convincing argument for this has been made so far, in my opinion.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
His original link was to a catholic league paper with a rather dodgy research round up in it.
IngoB - do you believe homosexuals are more likely to abuse children / adolescents than heterosexuals ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Yet if the US Church had somehow managed to keep homosexuals out of the priesthood, then she would have avoided the majority of abuses that in fact occurred.
Really ?!? Do you think that they would not have abused children in any other context ? Or that they would have been more likely to get caught ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Do we actually know that? If so how?
NB IngoB's link points to a dead site put up by a domain farmer - is there a typo in the name?
I'm not sure which link you have problems with? Think² messed up my first link in the quote, it's OK in her original. It has the data references you are looking for, here it is again.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
...I consider it highly unlikely per se that attraction to teens has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Typing "teenage boys" into google image search with SafeSearch switched off should provide some circumstantial evidence...
I've read that through several times now within its context, yet can't for the life of me see what pertinent point you're making with it. Still, whatever floats your boat...
[ 24. January 2010, 14:29: Message edited by: kankucho ]
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
IngoB - do you believe homosexuals are more likely to abuse children / adolescents than heterosexuals?
I have no idea, since I have not studied the question. I have however no a priori reason to assume so.
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Really?!? Do you think that they would not have abused children in any other context? Or that they would have been more likely to get caught?
I meant neither. Who can know that? Whatever these people would have done though, they would not have done it as US Catholic priests.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
IngoB - do you believe homosexuals are more likely to abuse children / adolescents than heterosexuals?
I have no idea, since I have not studied the question. I have however no a priori reason to assume so.
Then don't you think that obliges you to be particularly careful in implying this particular libel ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It has the data references you are looking for, here it is again.
Thanks.
Though neither that site nor the references from it have an estimate for the numbers of Protestant ministers accused of sexual abuse, nor for teachers. There is a reference to some papers about sexual "misconduct" by teachers - but it includes no real numbers and uses a much wider definition of "misconduct" so there is no comparison possible - its basically a rather stringy polemic against teachers unions supported by allegation and anecdote rather than data.
So there is no basis here for saying that priests are more or less likely to abuse children than those other groups.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
This makes an interesting read.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It has the data references you are looking for, here it is again.
Thanks.
Though neither that site nor the references from it have an estimate for the numbers of Protestant ministers accused of sexual abuse, nor for teachers. There is a reference to some papers about sexual "misconduct" by teachers - but it includes no real numbers and uses a much wider definition of "misconduct" so there is no comparison possible - its basically a rather stringy polemic against teachers unions supported by allegation and anecdote rather than data.
So there is no basis here for saying that priests are more or less likely to abuse children than those other groups.
It's certainly well annotated, and dressed up to look suitably candid, but the Catholic League's selection of data can hardly be considered objective under the circumstances. I'm making no counter claim. Just sayin'.
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It may or may not be true that child (pre-pubescent) molestation has little correlation with gender preference. Yet here (early) teens were targeted, and I consider it highly unlikely per se that attraction to teens has nothing to do with sexual orientation.
I'm implying from this statement that you either have made an extensive academic study in psychosexual development, or you've got experience being attracted to teenagers.
Or you're talking out your ass. Hm. I am always fond of the Third Way in arguments such as these.
[ 24. January 2010, 15:33: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
I've read that through several times now within its context, yet can't for the life of me see what pertinent point you're making with it. Still, whatever floats your boat...
Not my most brilliantly articulated argument, admittedly - I meant to illustrate that the rather massive presence of "teen porn" (both pretend and not) suggests that sexual interest in teens is fairly common, and hence mostly found in people who do have a clear sexual preference.
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Then don't you think that obliges you to be particularly careful in implying this particular libel?
For whatever reason, homosexual priests appear more likely to abuse adolescents, according to the US data. If you generalize that to all homosexuals, how is that my fault?
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
There is a reference to some papers about sexual "misconduct" by teachers - but it includes no real numbers and uses a much wider definition of "misconduct" so there is no comparison possible - its basically a rather stringy polemic against teachers unions supported by allegation and anecdote rather than data.
Bullshit, ken. To quote in part:
quote:
One of the nation’s foremost authorities on the subject of the sexual abuse of minors in public schools is Hofstra University professor Charol Shakeshaft. In 1994, Shakeshaft and Audrey Cohan did a study of 225 cases of educator sexual abuse in New York City. Their findings are astounding.
All of the accused admitted sexual abuse of a student, but none of the abusers was reported to the authorities, and only 1 percent lost their license to teach. Only 35 percent suffered negative consequences of any kind, and 39 percent chose to leave their school district, most with positive recommendations. Some were even given an early retirement package.
Moving molesting teachers from school district to school district is a common phenomenon. And in only 1 percent of the cases do superintendents notify the new school district. According to Diana Jean Schemo, the term "passing the trash" is the preferred jargon among educators.
Shakeshaft has also determined that 15 percent of all students have experienced some kind of sexual misconduct by a teacher between kindergarten and 12th grade; the behaviors range from touching to forced penetration. She and Cohan also found that up to 5 percent of teachers sexually abuse children.
Data of the above come mostly from "Charol Shakeshaft and Audrey Cohan, In loco parentis: Sexual abuse of students in schools, (What administrators should know). Report to the U.S. Department of Education, Field Initiated Grants".
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
This makes an interesting read.
Agreed. The apparently most comprehensive study by Goodstein (2003) supports male-male abuse at about 80%, though suggests a greater fraction of pedophiles at 43%. It also mentions a prevalence rate of 1.8% and a suggested rate of 3.6% (assuming twice as many offenders as caught), to be compared with the "up to 5%" for teacher above.
[ 24. January 2010, 15:53: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
Huh. I thought I was in Dead Horses there for a minute.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Don't you see, Spiffy? Isn't it clear? Sexual orientation is a nice, easy and simply-defined black-and-white absolute, isn't it? And there is never any sort of spectrum of proclivity that can shift during a lifetime, right? And that there's absolutely no possibility at all that the very setting of Catholic ministry is itself a driving factor in these seemingly systemic sexual predations, is there?
-koff-
Additionally, the Ship's galley is responding swiftly and decisively about the recent preponderance of ground beef in the stew. Unlike before, we're not going to pretend that it didn't happen. To prevent the abomination of ground beef, we're going to carefully screen our beef to make sure that only nice, normal cuts of un-perverted beef are selected to go into our grinder.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
To prevent the abomination of ground beef, we're going to carefully screen our beef to make sure that only nice, normal cuts of un-perverted beef are selected to go into our grinder.
You mean, screen out the gay beef?
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Don't you see, Spiffy? Isn't it clear? Sexual orientation is a nice, easy and simply-defined black-and-white absolute, isn't it?
Oh, yah, shure, you betcha. Sexual orientation most assuredly is black-and-white in my experience. As in, I'll have black and white, please, and are there any other colors in the back?
Although I think there's a legion of folks who will dispute the assertation I'm easy. References available upon request.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Here's a proposal:
Get rid of all Catholic clergy. No clergy, no clergy abuse. I have to admit that this is just a simple extrapolation of the logic already being used, but I feel it will have more comprehensive results.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Or you refuse to let children into the church.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
if the US Church had somehow managed to keep homosexuals out of the priesthood, then she would have avoided the majority of abuses that in fact occurred.
It appears that your entire argument rests on the notion that sexual abuse of minors to a large extent (if not entirely) involves sexual attraction and sexual gratification. Even a cursory glance at research from around the 80's onwards will indicate to you that this is not the case.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
We totally could have prevented 9/11 by keeping all Muslims out of our country.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Dumpling Jeff
Shipmate
# 12766
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Posted
Well Think, that sort of shoots your argument in the foot. 44% of offenders were gay while only 4%ish of the general population is gay.
Here, let me save you. About 30% of priests self report as gay. That's still a long way from 44% but at least it doesn't make gay priests out to be uncontrolled boy-love machines.
It also raises some questions about why gay men are attracted to the priesthood. One obvious answer is that they see their sexual attraction as an indication of their vocations. A more ominous reading might be that they see the position of priest as a good one to launch sexual exploitations. Plus there are probably as many other explanations as their are priests.
So here's a question. If instead of a thirtyish priest and a fifteen year old boy, there were a thirtyish year old prostitute and a fifteen year old boy, would our sense of injustice be just as acute?
These boys had reached the age of moral consent in the RC. Many (nearly all?) were in a consensual relationship. Why is this such a big deal? Why destroy the boys life by making this into a notorious crime? It's just sex.
I don't mean to imply that I think this is acceptable behavior for priests or anyone else. Catch the priests and throw them in prison like anyone else. But I don't view this as particularly egregious either because they were priests or because of the homosexual relationship.
Whether it's a doctor, a priest, a teacher, mom's girlfriend or a guy in a van doesn't matter. Whether the child is a boy or a girl doesn't matter. There needs to be one law for everyone to follow.
[ 24. January 2010, 17:12: Message edited by: Dumpling Jeff ]
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"There merely seems to be something rather glib in defending the police without question one moment and calling the Crusades-- or war in general-- bad the next. The second may be an extension of the first." - Alogon
Posts: 2572 | From: Nomad | Registered: Jun 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I am invoking Dumpling's law, which is that:
When creepy Jeff starts talking about sex, the thread is officially a trainwreck and should be abandoned.
[ 24. January 2010, 17:18: Message edited by: Think² ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Agreed, I feel slighty sick and dirty even having to read that crap. Dumpling, you are one sick puppy
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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PhilA
shipocaster
# 8792
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Bullshit, ken. To quote in part:
quote:
One of the nation’s foremost authorities on the subject of the sexual abuse of minors in public schools is Hofstra University professor Charol Shakeshaft. In 1994, Shakeshaft and Audrey Cohan did a study of 225 cases of educator sexual abuse in New York City. Their findings are astounding.
All of the accused admitted sexual abuse of a student, but none of the abusers was reported to the authorities, and only 1 percent lost their license to teach. Only 35 percent suffered negative consequences of any kind, and 39 percent chose to leave their school district, most with positive recommendations. Some were even given an early retirement package.
Moving molesting teachers from school district to school district is a common phenomenon. And in only 1 percent of the cases do superintendents notify the new school district. According to Diana Jean Schemo, the term "passing the trash" is the preferred jargon among educators.
Shakeshaft has also determined that 15 percent of all students have experienced some kind of sexual misconduct by a teacher between kindergarten and 12th grade; the behaviors range from touching to forced penetration. She and Cohan also found that up to 5 percent of teachers sexually abuse children.
I call bullshit on those figures. I am not suggesting that IngoB made them up, but they are clearly bollocks.
15% of all students have been sexually abused by a teacher? Bullshit. If it was 15% of children are abused, I could accept it, but seeing as how (in the US) 75% of cases of child sex abuse is committed by family members (84% if you count all abuse) - these figures would have people believe that a massive proportion of kids were abused.
According to Wiki there are 76.6 million students in the US. That would be 1149000 children are being abused by teachers. Utter bollocks.
I do believe 225 cases of reported abuse - no problem, but there are so many kids that make shit up, if a quarter of them are true or based on anything more than a rumour, I would be shocked. Hell, there have been 2 rumours in the past three years at my school. All of them made up or spiralling rumours.
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To err is human. To arr takes a pirate.
Posts: 3121 | From: Sofa | Registered: Nov 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PhilA:
I call bullshit on those figures. I am not suggesting that IngoB made them up, but they are clearly bollocks.
I suspect they may be using the definition of abuse that includes 'someone looked at you and it made you uncomfortable.'
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Birdseye
I can see my house from here!
# 5280
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Posted
Dumpling Jeff said: quote:
These boys had reached the age of moral consent in the RC. Many (nearly all?) were in a consensual relationship. Why is this such a big deal? Why destroy the boys life by making this into a notorious crime? It's just sex.
I don't mean to imply that I think this is acceptable behavior for priests or anyone else. Catch the priests and throw them in prison like anyone else. But I don't view this as particularly egregious either because they were priests or because of the homosexual relationship.
It is worse for priests because they hold a position of greater than average trust and power; it is also wrong because unlike a secular teacher (who also holds a position of trust and power) they are supposed to adhere to a code of conduct that aspires to be like Christ in its protection of the innocent, not leading others into morally difficult or ambiguous situations but helping them to learn how to steer a course OUT of them; it is also particularly wrong for RC Priests as they have promised to be celibate.
I fail to see how a priest abusing a(or even consorting with a precocious and willing) child/ teenager is in any way reflective of God's mission to the world. Instead it is deeply selfish, foolish and at worst destructive and evil.
For someone else, who has no relationship with God and no sense of moral guidance and who may themselves be a very disturbed and damaged individual (and thus in a totally unsuitable state to be a priest), I mean someone in a secular job or no job at all, it is wrong and evil -but in no way as shocking a betrayal as when a priest misuses their position in such a way.
[ 24. January 2010, 18:58: Message edited by: Birdseye ]
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Life is what happens whilst you're busy making other plans.
a birdseye view
Posts: 1615 | From: West Yorkshire | Registered: Dec 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Don't you see, Spiffy? Isn't it clear? Sexual orientation is a nice, easy and simply-defined black-and-white absolute, isn't it? And there is never any sort of spectrum of proclivity that can shift during a lifetime, right? And that there's absolutely no possibility at all that the very setting of Catholic ministry is itself a driving factor in these seemingly systemic sexual predations, is there?
We are talking here about adult sexual orientation, right? If you are saying that this is unspecific in many adults, and fluid enough to be changed by circumstances and social environment, then clearly you agree that organizations like NARTH are on the right track, at least concerning their practical chances of success (never mind whether you like their goals)?
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Get rid of all Catholic clergy. No clergy, no clergy abuse.
Your extrapolation fails: Catholics need to have clergy for religious reasons, they do not however require them to be homosexual.
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
It appears that your entire argument rests on the notion that sexual abuse of minors to a large extent (if not entirely) involves sexual attraction and sexual gratification.
My argument rests on the so far undisputed fact that 80-90% of all abuse was male-male. Further, that 60-80% of the victims were in their (early) teens, not children (different studies, different numbers: still, a majority). That the perpetrators were male follows from the rules of the Church for the priesthood. But that the victims were largely adolescent males then requires some explanation. Something strongly selected a gender - if not sexual preference, the most natural explanation, what else? Sexual abuse may be largely a power game, but that aspect alone precisely does not explain strong gender preference, as far as I can see.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
Foot plays intellectual (sic) footsie.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
"I'm not saying that all Arabs are terrorists, but surely you can see that most terrorists are Arabs."
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PhilA:
15% of all students have been sexually abused by a teacher? Bullshit. If it was 15% of children are abused, I could accept it, but seeing as how (in the US) 75% of cases of child sex abuse is committed by family members (84% if you count all abuse) - these figures would have people believe that a massive proportion of kids were abused.
Some further googling finds this interview, which has her say "10% from the time they started school through the 11th grade". I do not know whether the lacking 5% somehow get assigned to the missing kindergarten + 12th grade elsewhere. It also becomes clear that she operates on a very general definition: "Any behaviour that’s sexual in nature directed toward a student, no matter the age of the student. So, it might be anything from touching a student on the breast, from talking about sexual activities that are specifically personal activities, not the kind of thing you do in a class, showing pornographic pictures, telling pornographic jokes or telling jokes that are sexual in nature to intercourse, kissing, any other kind of sexual touching." Note that the Catholic League correctly identifies this as sexual misconduct, rather than sexual abuse. Here is her review of the literature, which (according to the foreword by the Deputy Secretary), is not always careful in maintaining the distinction.
quote:
Originally posted by PhilA:
I do believe 225 cases of reported abuse - no problem, but there are so many kids that make shit up, if a quarter of them are true or based on anything more than a rumour, I would be shocked.
The significance of those case studies is more that this was real sexual abuse, but got handled by the school authorities in much the same "hush it up, move the perp" way that some US bishops were guilty of.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Is it no longer widely believed that sexual abuse has to do with power and intimidation, and not sexual gratification per se? I've been out of the loop and new studies may have arisen since I was reading about rape in the mid 1980s.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Typing "teenage boys" into google image search with SafeSearch switched off should provide some circumstantial evidence...
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
- I meant to illustrate that the rather massive presence of "teen porn" (both pretend and not) suggests that sexual interest in teens is fairly common, and hence mostly found in people who do have a clear sexual preference.
Couldn't be the massive amount of teenagers on-line, could it?
Couldn't be most any search will result in relevant hits, could it?
Couldn't be the 'net provides an easy, efficient and semi-anonymous method of distribution and collection, could it?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I happen to know of a case in England of a priest who asked to be released from his vows because he wanted to marry - he was refused and a few years later was convicted as a paedophile. I think there is at least an argument that forcing people to sublimate 'natural' emotions (by which I mean a leaning towards consenting adult relationships) increases the risk that they will be eventually driven by forces they scarcely understand to achieve sexual gratification by other means.
Whereas I don't think that gay men who are 'out' are any more of a threat to children than straight men, I do think that people who are in denial about their sexuality (for whatever reason) are more likely to be dangerous - and, yes, I suspect that priesthood may seem like a good option for such confused and tormented souls, raised in an environment where homosexuality is still "the love that dares not speak its name".
I'm not suggesting that significant numbers go in for the priesthood with the intention of becoming abusers, but that the insistence on celibacy and the condemnation of homosexuality is, in effect, perverting. Instead of facing their desires openly, they are forced to think of them as 'filthy' secrets. Couple that with rigid ideas about hierarchy and judgement, and it's hardly surprising that they seek out an innocent party who they can manipulate into 'perversion' and then blame. In fact the sexual innocence of the child may be part of the attraction for an adult who cannot admit to having sexual feelings.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
We are talking here about adult sexual orientation, right?
If only! We're talking about incredibly repressive circumstance inflicted upon (probably stunted) sexual orientation. Sexual orientation, as noted by Kinsey, is expressed as a spectrum. Not binary. And can appear to shift when people realize that the binary model doesn't suit them.
quote:
NARTH
Want to play the spurious ad-hominem game? Fine.
Your beloved Catholic church produces clergy with a proclivity for sexual offense that is only exceeded by one other kind of institution: prisons. It seems to me that there are probably a great many psychological parallels to be made about how this is accomplished.
quote:
Your extrapolation fails: Catholics need to have clergy for religious reasons, they do not however require them to be homosexual.
My reductio ad absurdum served its purpose - to question the assumption of the methodology. You'll keep defending the decisions of your spiritual leaders, for religious reasons. They do not, however, seem particularly well-conceived to anyone else not thus hobbled.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Is it no longer widely believed that sexual abuse has to do with power and intimidation, and not sexual gratification per se? I've been out of the loop and new studies may have arisen since I was reading about rape in the mid 1980s.
The studies I come across all still suggest it is about power. I'm not strictly in the loop but I do seem to get them in my reading fairly regularly. Its one of the outcomes of having to have a "feminist stance"* as part of my research, I have to read feminist papers if only to disagree with them and that includes papers on such things.
Jengie
*That is having to have a stance on what it means for me as a women to be doing the research I am doing. I think that I am a woman doing my phd is about the least interesting of several facts that are relevant to my PhD. They don't ask for the equivalent of men, I think that is sexist!
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Is it no longer widely believed that sexual abuse has to do with power and intimidation, and not sexual gratification per se? I've been out of the loop and new studies may have arisen since I was reading about rape in the mid 1980s.
The studies I come across all still suggest it is about power.
Yes, but, when people make this kind of statement they seem to be suggesting that 'normal' sex (whatever that is) isn't about power. Tell that the the S&M brigade. Tell it to the Mills and Boon brigade for that matter. Sexy schoolgirls, policemen strippograms, naughty nurses - no, no, none of this is about power. Absolutely not.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Actually you are wrong there. These papers sit next to papers about power in other sexual relationships. In fact there isn't an area in sociology which isn't concerned with power. It sits along with social class, gender and race as things you HAVE to look at.
However they are talking about power used against another's will and "getting off" on that. It is not that power is involved but that the high is related primarily to the exercise of power rather than to sexual attraction. In that it is more related to other forms of abuse than to other forms of sex.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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PhilA
shipocaster
# 8792
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by PhilA:
15% of all students have been sexually abused by a teacher? Bullshit. If it was 15% of children are abused, I could accept it, but seeing as how (in the US) 75% of cases of child sex abuse is committed by family members (84% if you count all abuse) - these figures would have people believe that a massive proportion of kids were abused.
Some further googling finds this interview, which has her say "10% from the time they started school through the 11th grade". I do not know whether the lacking 5% somehow get assigned to the missing kindergarten + 12th grade elsewhere. It also becomes clear that she operates on a very general definition: "Any behaviour that’s sexual in nature directed toward a student, no matter the age of the student. So, it might be anything from touching a student on the breast, from talking about sexual activities that are specifically personal activities, not the kind of thing you do in a class, showing pornographic pictures, telling pornographic jokes or telling jokes that are sexual in nature to intercourse, kissing, any other kind of sexual touching." Note that the Catholic League correctly identifies this as sexual misconduct, rather than sexual abuse. Here is her review of the literature, which (according to the foreword by the Deputy Secretary), is not always careful in maintaining the distinction.
Depending on how you ask kids the questions depends on the answers you will get - particularly younger kids. As I am sure I have mentioned before, my wife is a lecturer in criminology at Huddersfield University and spends a lot of time in Wakefield prison, which is a category A prison that primarily deals with very dangerous men, paedophiles and sex offenders. I showed her the link to this interview. Her instant reaction was 'bullshit'. There is no way those figures can be substantiated by peer review publication. I obviously can't link to a conversation I've just had with my wife, but as far as she is concerned, these figures cannot be substantiated, and it is a large part of her job to know about this sort of thing.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by PhilA:
I do believe 225 cases of reported abuse - no problem, but there are so many kids that make shit up, if a quarter of them are true or based on anything more than a rumour, I would be shocked.
The significance of those case studies is more that this was real sexual abuse, but got handled by the school authorities in much the same "hush it up, move the perp" way that some US bishops were guilty of.
Of course, this will occasionally happen. I don't teach in the US I teach in the UK. I have experience of three members of staff (one at my school, one at my sisters school and one at a friends school) being accused of inappropriate conduct, which in all of these cases was an accusation of sexual conduct with a student. On ALL cases the teacher was IMMEDIATELY suspended and banned from the premises (once, half way through a lesson) until a full investigation was carried out. All three of these cases were false, one case was a drunken boast by one girl that she had 'had' Mr so and so made on bebo. It is a legal requirement in the UK that all accusations are taken seriously and the teacher in question is suspended following an investigation. I am surprised that this isn't the case in the US.
[those tricky UBB tags have the beating of yet another poster]
[ 25. January 2010, 08:54: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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To err is human. To arr takes a pirate.
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