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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Ignorant Bigot
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Imperfect analogy or not, if you're viewing faith in those terms then there's no hope.
There clearly must be the hope to make it out alive. Otherwise you would just sit down and die.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Faith isn't about picking the best way to escape this world, it's about coming to a greater understanding of God and the wonders of life.
Are you sure that you are not confusing faith with some educational TV program? Anyway, this is precisely the "shopping mall" approach I was talking about.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
To use an (equally imperfect!) analogy from my point of view, closing your mind to other possibilities is like having a box of Quality Street but only ever eating the green triangle. OK, you might really like that one, but there are so many other tasty treats in there that you might like as well!
Again, the same problem: you believe that there is, fundamentally, no problem. What happens to your analogy though if some chocolates are systematically filled with rat poison?
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
I would just like to explain to those who find this thread a perfect place to dump on the Catholic Church that you are dumping on the Catholic Church in Ingo's universe. It's not anything I recognise in my universe. My church is made up of imperfect people.
I'm sure you can find some post somewhere where I have said or implied that the RCC is made up of perfect people? Because, you know, I don't remember having said or implied that, ever. Find some other way of distancing yourself from me, please. I'm sure that you can find one not based on a lie, it's not that hard.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
There clearly must be the hope to make it out alive. Otherwise you would just sit down and die.
Nobody makes it out alive, but dying doesn't bother me too much. My hope is for humanity, not my microscopically tiny share in it.
quote:
Again, the same problem: you believe that there is, fundamentally, no problem. What happens to your analogy though if some chocolates are systematically filled with rat poison?
Interesting question, especially since I have a nut allergy so some of the chocolates are filled with poison as far as I'm concerned. I just avoid those ones.
You can't mean that some of the chocolates are poisoned at random, because that would mean all varieties are just as likely to kill you and thus there is no "one safe chocolate" to consume.
Now, you may be the spiritual equivalent of someone who is allergic to every single chocolate apart from the green triangle. But from where I sit it looks more like you're the sort of person who has decided that they only like the green triangle and refuses to even consider trying any of the others.
Go on, try a strawberry cream. You might like it!
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
I don't know about anyone else, but my mum always warned me about accepting sweeties from strangers. And they don't come no stranger than Martians, young Marvin.
Actually, of course, most of we convert-types have had a fair sampling of the other faith-fancies before settling for the Roman Ripple.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
I don't know about anyone else, but my mum always warned me about accepting sweeties from strangers. And they don't come no stranger than Martians, young Marvin.
Clearly you've never been to Singapore.
quote:
Actually, of course, most of we convert-types have had a fair sampling of the other faith-fancies before settling for the Roman Ripple.
For sure. I guess I just can't understand someone consciously deciding to restrict themselves to only one variety.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Major Disaster
Shipmate
# 13229
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Posted
Of course there is no point in quarreling about tastes. However, strawberry creams
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
While I am here, I would add that the title surprises me. Although I am unable to discuss anything with IngoB because I find his style beyond my personal patience, I don't think him either ignorant or a bigot. He is very clear in his thinking, und uncompromising clear in his expression of his thoughts.
The fact that he takes no account of his disputants' weakness or sensibilities does not make him a bigot. He is like a knight who gives no quarter in battle, or perhaps samurai may be a better simile. He makes no effort to attract allies or friends, and perhaps his strengths excite more than a little envy.
But I have no role in this fight with him. I just dislike the waste represented by nasty chocolate. Thorntons Continental will do me very well.
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O Beata Solitudo! Sola Beatitudo!
Posts: 869 | From: Heart of Midlothian | Registered: Dec 2007
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Re Bingo and his world view, you picked an unfortunate analogy, Major Disaster.
The knightly class of feudal Europe and the samurai class of feudal Japan were both the epitome of ignorant bigotry.
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
I don't know about anyone else, but my mum always warned me about accepting sweeties from strangers.
Well, there you have it!
That is precisely why many of us cradle-catholics are wary of the sweets that converts of the IngoB type force upon us.
quote:
Actually, of course, most of we convert-types have had a fair sampling of the other faith-fancies before settling for the Roman Ripple.
I for one consider the RCC to be a lot more than a faith-fancy, but I suppose we should regard it as a compliment that you preferred the RCC over the other ones.
Of course the reasons/causes why people convert vary widely. Some of those reasons/causes are obviously questionable, while others have undesirable effects. When they result in arrogant exclusivist behavior (not only towards christians outside the RCC -which IMHO is bad enough- but also) towards large proportions of fellow-RC's, then you clearly have an undesirable effect.
I fear that those convinced by IngoB's apologetics (or "pugilism" as he describes it himself, although "professional wrestling entertainment" would be a better fit) to convert to the RCC or to remain in the RCC, will be greatly outnumbered by those who are convinced by him to stay away from or leave the RCC.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
those who are convinced by him to stay away from or leave the RCC.
It would be odd to pick on a single lay individual as a reason to stay away from or leave the RCC. Particularly when there are so many other examples, arguably higher up in the heirachy than Ingo and therefore more reason to be a stumbling block. Indeed, if one is choosing a stumbling block to faith in the RCC, to continue the chocolate analogy, Ingo seems to be the last half-chewed coffee cream in a full and bursting hand-made belgian chocolate box.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Nobody makes it out alive, but dying doesn't bother me too much.
I was talking about the analogy there, not life. Introducing Christian resurrection into the analogy would have overloaded it.
I always wonder when people make statements about how they will deal with death. Personally, I have absolutely no idea how I will react to imminent death. I hope that I will retain a measure of dignity, and indeed faith, but I'm certainly not confident of that. I think one of the "blessings" of old age is that it debilitates us enough so that we go out with a harmless whimper...
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
My hope is for humanity, not my microscopically tiny share in it.
I think this dichotomy is false on many levels. For one, based on nature alone there is no hope for humanity either. Just the time scale of deterioration and death is longer.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Now, you may be the spiritual equivalent of someone who is allergic to every single chocolate apart from the green triangle. But from where I sit it looks more like you're the sort of person who has decided that they only like the green triangle and refuses to even consider trying any of the others.
Well, we are back to square one. What I'm trying to get across is a sense of urgency. Your analogy, whether with "bad" chocolates or not, lacks any urgency. You are munching chocolates, enjoying yourself - a bit more carefully if you have nut allergy, but that's it. If that is the case, then it seems silly to not try out different things. But I don't think that that is the case.
Anyway, I used to be a run-of-the-mill apathetic / agnostic / functional atheist, then I was seriously into Zen Buddhism for a while, now Catholic. That hardly covers all religious options, but it's not like I've ever only known one thing.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Nobody makes it out alive, but dying doesn't bother me too much.
I was talking about the analogy there, not life. Introducing Christian resurrection into the analogy would have overloaded it.
Ah, right. Sorry, I hadn't realised you were still talking about your analogy.
quote:
I always wonder when people make statements about how they will deal with death. Personally, I have absolutely no idea how I will react to imminent death.
Oh, no doubt I'll go kicking and screaming against the inevitability of my demise. But from the perspective of the relatively fit and healthy 31-year-old that I am, I refuse to make my decisions based on that inevitability. I'll die one day, but I've got a life to live first ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
My hope is for humanity, not my microscopically tiny share in it.
I think this dichotomy is false on many levels. For one, based on nature alone there is no hope for humanity either. Just the time scale of deterioration and death is longer.
Why does hope have to extend to infinity? sure, the heat death of the universe will get us eventually, but there's a heckuva long time for humanity to better itself before then.
quote:
What I'm trying to get across is a sense of urgency. Your analogy, whether with "bad" chocolates or not, lacks any urgency. You are munching chocolates, enjoying yourself - a bit more carefully if you have nut allergy, but that's it. If that is the case, then it seems silly to not try out different things. But I don't think that that is the case.
Where does that urgency come from though? Where's the rush?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Fuzzipeg
Shipmate
# 10107
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Posted
Ex IngoB..... Anyway, I used to be a run-of-the-mill apathetic / agnostic / functional atheist, then I was seriously into Zen Buddhism for a while, now Catholic.
Congratulations, IngoB. To me that's a very natural path to Rome despite never having trodden it myself. It makes a great deal of sense in terms of seeking after a spiritual home and trying to make sense of the Big Question, "What is the meaning of Life?" Others, of course, find different homes but their search is no less valid or blessed. I think it was Sr Wendy who said that God is delighted by the effort of all Churches to worship him.
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http://foodybooze.blogspot.co.za
Posts: 929 | From: Johannesburg, South Africa | Registered: Aug 2005
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I always wonder when people make statements about how they will deal with death. Personally, I have absolutely no idea how I will react to imminent death.
Maybe because some of us have, you know, come close to dying? Like, "ow, those chest defib paddles leave one heckofa a mark" close.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Why does hope have to extend to infinity? sure, the heat death of the universe will get us eventually, but there's a heckuva long time for humanity to better itself before then.
The heat death? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) You are being incredibly optimistic, even on purely physical grounds. After all, we must then have somehow survived the sun turning red giant, and jumped from energy source to energy source across the universe till they all started running out... I myself would be seriously impressed if we ever managed to have a permanent presence anywhere other than on earth. And I would be gob-smacked if we stuck around as long as the saber-toothed cat. And how and why precisely should humanity try to better itself in your scheme?
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Where does that urgency come from though? Where's the rush?
Well, I refuse to make my decisions ignoring the inevitability of death and the brittle preciousness of human life. A word of Dogen Zenji will stay with me for the rest of my life: "Be as eager to do zazen as you would be to extinguish a fire upon your head." (Replace "zazen" with "religious practice" for application outside of Zen.) I don't think that I've ever felt more than a lick of that flame, but that was quite enough. The world becomes a weird place when the deus absconditus is not entirely hidden anymore. As if that solid, white wall turned out to be a giant sheet of paper when you touch it, and then you hear something large shuffling around on the other side...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
I don't know about anyone else, but my mum always warned me about accepting sweeties from strangers.
Well, there you have it!
That is precisely why many of us cradle-catholics are wary of the sweets that converts of the IngoB type force upon us.
But, opaWim, those are sweeties that your mother (the Church) has already popped in your lunchbox.
quote:
I for one consider the RCC to be a lot more than a faith-fancy.
Well, as I should have thought was glaringly manifest, so do I. It wasn't my analogy, it was Marvin's - I was just playing along with it.
[ 05. February 2010, 16:22: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
But, opaWim, those are sweeties that your mother (the Church) has already popped in your lunchbox.
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
You're serious, aren't you?
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Sure. What bit(s) are you taking issue with?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
The fact that said sweeties are equal to half a squished Oreo that fell on the ground on the School Cafeteria Black Market.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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GoodCatholicLad
Shipmate
# 9231
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Triple Tiara: To this non-Catholic non-European, it sounds like Cardinal Law got a very cushy retirement in Rome -- nice work if you can get it! That may not be the reality, but that's how it plays here for most people. Child abuse survivors were ignored and shamed for decades, but Law gets to eat authentic Italian food every day and sit around and drink espresso in a picturesque setting. I'm not one of those who thinks he ought to have been flogged on Boston Commons, but it's hard to see that he's suffering.
I have to agree with Ruth, it really does sound like a comfy life living in one of the most beautiful cities in the world, eating wonderful food with all his bills paid for. How about being a parish priest in some high crime area like Newark or Elizabeth New Jersey not knowing if the electrical bill for next month will be paid?
Posts: 1234 | From: San Francisco California | Registered: Mar 2005
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
The fact that said sweeties are equal to half a squished Oreo that fell on the ground on the School Cafeteria Black Market.
*Snork*
Maybe, Spiffy - but we ("converts") are only picking it up off the floor and proffering it, not baking and squishing it up first. And to us, it looks pretty wholesome.
Oreo pro nobis, innit.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GoodCatholicLad:
How about being a parish priest in some high crime area like Newark or Elizabeth New Jersey not knowing if the electrical bill for next month will be paid?
Did you miss the bit about removing him from direct pastoral control?
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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GoodCatholicLad
Shipmate
# 9231
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by GoodCatholicLad:
How about being a parish priest in some high crime area like Newark or Elizabeth New Jersey not knowing if the electrical bill for next month will be paid?
Did you miss the bit about removing him from direct pastoral control?
You are right, I was looking at this more from the point of sleeping on 800 thread count sheets, eating pasta carbonara and turrone and having time to visit museums instead of worrying about how to pay the bills/rent like the rest of us.
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All you have is right now.
Posts: 1234 | From: San Francisco California | Registered: Mar 2005
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
In know, GCL - I sometimes wonder myself how badly I'd have to louse up in my job to get a gig with those perks. But we don't know what exactly went in the Law case, and good Catholic lad that I am too, I ain't doin' no judgin'.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
The fact that said sweeties are equal to half a squished Oreo that fell on the ground on the School Cafeteria Black Market.
*Snork*
Maybe, Spiffy - but we ("converts") are only picking it up off the floor and proffering it, not baking and squishing it up first. And to us, it looks pretty wholesome.
Oreo pro nobis, innit.
And you wonder why others give you the side eye when there's other perfectly good treats available but you insist on eating food off the floor.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Sure. What bit(s) are you taking issue with?
You really enjoy this, don't you?
1. If this were true
quote:
But, opaWim, those are sweeties that your mother (the Church) has already popped in your lunchbox.
don't you wonder how IngoB came into possession? I didn't give them to him.
2. IngoB's sweeties may look genuine to you, even to himself. That doesn't necessarily mean they aren't counterfeit or interfered with.
3. I presume you don't accept sweets from strangers, why should I?
4. Seen from where I am, you are insulting my mother.
Just curious, why are people like IngoB and you so indifferent to the bad reputation you earn converts, and the RCC?
Is it some kind of prophet-delusion?
Or is it the usual nagging insecurity about the validity of your current Absolute-BetterThanAnyOther-Truth?
Why is it so blindingly obvious irritatingly unacceptable to you that cradle-RC's can be quite secure in their relationship with God without necessarily subscribing to all the sweets (be they genuine, relevant, etc., or not) that convinced you to convert?
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Spiffy, this is great game, and I could riff for hours - but every analogy has its limits. I guess I don't expect the cookie I found to be all that appealing prima facie to everyone else. That, and I'm used to people looking at me as if I'm a bug-eater.
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
1. If this were true
quote:
But, opaWim, those are sweeties that your mother (the Church) has already popped in your lunchbox.
don't you wonder how IngoB came into possession? I didn't give them to him.
Erm, I didn't think this one was too controversial - check the lunchbox list Old Ma Kirk gives us and see if it's there. In other words, if IngoB is telling you stuff the Church ain't teaching, tell us what.
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
2. IngoB's sweeties may look genuine to you, even to himself. That doesn't necessarily mean they aren't counterfeit or interfered with.
I refer the honourable poster to the reply I made some moments ago.
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
3. I presume you don't accept sweets from strangers, why should I?
I didn't get them from strangers - I got them from the candy jar at home (Tradition, specific teachings of the Magisterium, etc.). Every last one. Doesn't hurt to examine them carefully first, but.
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
4. Seen from where I am, you are insulting my mother.
Then re-position your deckchair, mate - your view's all squinty.
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Just curious, why are people like IngoB and you so indifferent to the bad reputation you earn converts, and the RCC?
Who says I'm indifferent? I can be cack-handed and counter-productive without meaning to be or without not caring about it. Honestly, two posters on a bulletin board in the whole history of converts and of the Church is pretty small beer.
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Is it some kind of prophet-delusion?
Or is it the usual nagging insecurity about the validity of your current Absolute-BetterThanAnyOther-Truth?
Where are you getting this stuff from (other than the bile-duct)? Not everyone is so afraid of embracing and allowing oneself to be constrained by certainty of belief about some things that they need to pretend that constant doubt is more comforting. There's plenty uncertainty around in life and faith as it is without scuttling the boat and splashing around all the time.
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Why is it so blindingly obvious irritatingly unacceptable to you that cradle-RC's can be quite secure in their relationship with God without necessarily subscribing to all the sweets (be they genuine, relevant, etc., or not) that convinced you to convert?
I say nothing about people's own personal interaction with the faith - that's their business - but I don't think their difficulties with embracing the fullness of what is taught in their own Church give them a right to misrepresent the nature of those teachings altogether.
If a lawyer were speaking to non-lawyers about her difficulties with some of the constitutional statutes of the land, misrepresented some of them and tried to tell those folks that they shouldn't worry about them - they could be just as good lawyers by rejecting them, that wouldn't make her a very trustworthy advisor on the law. Just as another lawyer might very well come in to correct the comments of the first, so if some Catholics see the faith being misrepresented we sometimes chime in. Where's the problem with that? We are usually doing inresponse to being "corrected" by others in our exposition of soem aspect of the faith anyway.
[ 06. February 2010, 10:00: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
O, come of it!
You've just wasted away any benefit of the doubt remaining.
You're just another bully.
And when, in time, you and IngoB convert to yet another church, you'll most likely be bullies still.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Yeah, and I want your lunch-money, sis. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 06. February 2010, 10:57: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Rat's arse.
Why, yes, Ingo, you are.
Recognizing that you have the problem is the first step toward solving it. Congratulations on achieving that much.
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
The Cathoolic Church identifies itself as the Church founded by Christ and the Apostles, not a church or a branch of the Church. Therefore, if she is wrong about this and lots of other non-Cathoolic communities have as good a claim to being the Church or to being on an equal ecclesialogical footing, then she isn't the Church she said she was - she's not the Church as she defines it at all.
Of course she's not. Even a smattering of Church history should demonstrate that to all but the most partisan.
If any "ecclesial community" can make a claim of being "the Church founded by Christ and the Apostles," it's Orthodoxy, not Rome. The Orthodox Churches have problems of their own, but if we're going to play the One True Church game, I'd say their claim is superior, in terms of both history and tradition.
When you come down to it, the Roman Catholic Church is really, like all the others, just another Christian denomination. The Church on Earth, however we choose to define it (and I'd include any and all that subscribe to the Nicene Creed) is by definition made up of human beings - and human beings are, by definition, fallible.
I think we'd do better to focus on the message of Jesus Christ and drop the Pharisaic routines about just who is the Official Protector of God's Unvarnished Truth, With Full Smiting Privileges, but then I don't have a power base to protect.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
Ross, I'm so glad this is Hell and not Purgatory so that I can just call that last post for the leaky sack of arsefruit it is, instead of having to pick through it bit by bit.
Anyone coming this late and lame to the party had better have brought a shed-load of booze with them, is what I say.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
Chesterbelloc, I would be shocked if you were to agree with me. You couldn't. You've got too much invested.
But anyone who can look dispassionately at the frequently unfortunate history of the supposedly infallible Church of Rome and come to any other conclusion than that human nature has generally had the upper hand over the Holy Spirit must surely despair of God.
I do not despair of God. (And I am the first to say that my own branch of the Church Catholic has its own historical and present uglinesses, just as yours does, just as all other denominations and religions do.) Most of the time, I don't even despair of human beings - but I do despair of the ability of powerful human institutions to rule themselves effectively. YMMV, etc.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Just curious, why are people like IngoB and you so indifferent to the bad reputation you earn converts, and the RCC?
These are the boards of Ship of Fools, the Magazine of Christian Unrest. And foolish Christian unrest isn't limited to liberal whingebags. This place is cutting dredge, why be amazed that it drags in some Coelacanths?
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse.:
Recognizing that you have the problem is the first step toward solving it. Congratulations on achieving that much.
I have few illusions about my failings. Chief among them is acedia, meaning that any first step is likely going to be the last. However, why am I talking to you? Since you've chosen to turn your life into an argumentum ad hominem, I should just ignore your existence as fallacious.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
IngoB: isn't the problem with the Death Valley analogy (and with living out one's faith by it) that it posits a God who (a) allows his apparently loved creation only a 1 in however-many chance of arriving at the truth about him and (b) condemns to eternal death those who accidentally, and in all good faith, believe some of the wrong things about him?
As you know, I'm RC, and there is a lot about your witness that I admire and find consoling. However I find it hard to accept that our God, who is Love, will punish people who have been genuinely mistaken about him - not malicious, not faithless, just not 100% right about his nature and what he requires of us.
That god - the one who expects us to score 100% on knowing him, though we cannot see him clearly, and will condemn us if we do not, is a monster. And if I believed in that god, I wouldn't worship him.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
However I find it hard to accept that our God, who is Love, will punish people who have been genuinely mistaken about him - not malicious, not faithless, just not 100% right about his nature and what he requires of us.
First, this is simply not a good reading of my analogy. See the part about God's mercy, which basically already answers your concerns.
However, I think there's a deeper issue here. Some insist that children are to be praised for "trying their best", more or less irrespective of their recognition of the task at hand and their successful execution of it. What counts then is essentially only motivation and intent, not action and outcome. I think many people who talk about God forgiving our "honest" errors mean essentially the same thing, just translated to religion.
I do not believe however that that is God's way. I think God has our measure, with Divine precision, and assigns responsibilities to us accordingly. And He will call our failure a failure, and our success a success. It's just that every single time we fail, He's willing to offer us another perfectly fair go. However, God is no infinite sucker and the responsibility we are given is ultimately all to real. Hence, all this does come to an end with death.
So yes, I think there are honest errors, and God is not going to punish those. But I also believe that our errors do not become honest merely because we honestly can't be bothered about them. The people who I feel this excuse most applies to are the ones that least use it.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Ingo I'd be careful what you put in writing here, it could come back to bite you in the ass come judgement day: with the measure you judge you shall be judged and all that.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by opaWim:
Why is it so blindingly obvious irritatingly unacceptable to you that cradle-RC's can be quite secure in their relationship with God without necessarily subscribing to all the sweets (be they genuine, relevant, etc., or not) that convinced you to convert?
Can we loose the tedious 'convert' vs. 'cradle Catholic' stuff? I was received into full communion with the RCC as an adult. I frequently find myself holding less conservative positions than ChesterBelloc and IngoB.
There are no 'cradle Catholics' - nobody is born Catholic. There are just Catholics. And, to be fair, I don't see either CB or IngoB claiming otherwise. You are the one reading the 'getting at cradle Catholics' stuff into what they are saying.
[ 07. February 2010, 15:00: Message edited by: Divine Outlaw Dwarf ]
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insert amusing sig. here
Posts: 8705 | Registered: Jan 2002
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) well said
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
I would have thought it significant that all the commandments of christianity are essentially earthly in nature. There are no commandments to "know god".
Likewise it is significant that IngoB treats some virtual discussion space as unimportant in terms of how he conducts himself. Because, clearly, his religion is about scoring numbers. What he does to the least of us is unimportant, according to his faith.
He's a dogma quick-draw, and a self-taught faith-maze solving rodent. He's found a handy-dandy rosary-cranked Answer For Everything (it says so right on the box!), so he hardly needs to waste his valuable time considering the value of those Answers. He just gives it another crank, and out comes Reassurances. See how straightforward it is? Aren't we foolish to not partake?
Being a miserable excuse for a human being hardly impinges on his sensibilities at all.
[Crossposted. He Who Must Be Changed needed a changing.]
[ 07. February 2010, 15:34: Message edited by: RooK ]
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
I would have thought it significant that all the commandments of christianity are essentially earthly in nature. There are no commandments to "know god".
Ah, but there are. It's just that most people don't pay attention to them!
As for IngoB, I feel sad that he scapegoats homosexuality for the horrible abuses that have been going on for a long time. I don't think the abuses are a modern phenomenon either (neither do I think that priests or monks doing sexual stuff against their vows was a modern trend). I think IngoB feels the need to protect his religion from fierce but justified criticism, and in my view, it's sad that religion has this effect on otherwise nice and smart people.
Of course it's not just IngoB. All sorts of people tried to defend their religion in various ways over time. But I don't think this works. I think this approach causes more problems than it tries to solve and I think the sensible thing to do is to condemn injustice and abuse without adding "but...".
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
Nice to see you El Greco - how goes it?
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
Being busy but fine! Was touched earlier by an exchange I read in Hell and stayed so now I'm writing a few posts here and there.
Um, did you have a different nickname in the past?
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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opaWim
Shipmate
# 11137
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
Can we loose the tedious 'convert' vs. 'cradle Catholic' stuff?
It wasn't I who introduced the convert-stuff into this thread. And when I joined in, I did it with the phrase "With converts like that, my church doesn't need enemies.".
If you look more carefully you will also see that this is not "'convert' vs. 'cradle catholic'" stuff but "'converts like IngoB' vs. 'RC's who don't agree with converts like IngoB'"-stuff.
quote:
I was received into full communion with the RCC as an adult. I frequently find myself holding less conservative positions than ChesterBelloc and IngoB.
I'm convinced that's the case for the vast majority of converts.
In real life I don't run into specific problems with converts. The interesting thing is that I have yet to encounter a convert behaving like IngoB or Chesterbelloc in the real world. Which means that either they are extremely rare or that they only exist in Virtual Reality.
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It's the Thirties all over again, possibly even worse.
Posts: 524 | From: The Marshes | Registered: Mar 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
There are no 'cradle Catholics' - nobody is born Catholic.
There is no logical connection between those two statements, due to their different modifiers of "Catholic". The first statement is manifestly false, the second one is true(*). However, while I think some average differences are likely, I see no particular reason why the role of cradle and convert Catholics could not be complementary rather than adversarial.
(*) Though if those that die unbaptized before the age of reason join the communion of saints in heaven, then some further distinctions are clearly called for.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by El Greco:
Um, did you have a different nickname in the past?
Yes - I was Paul M
(we met at the Globe - London shipmeet)
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
Ah, nice to see you
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
A love-in in Hell. It's like the South Park movie.
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insert amusing sig. here
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
...I should just ignore your existence as fallacious.
That's right, Ingo. If you can't face points and people which make you uncomfortable, just pretend they don't exist. Whatever you do, don't consider the possibility that you might be mistaken about something.
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
...He's a dogma quick-draw, and a self-taught faith-maze solving rodent. He's found a handy-dandy rosary-cranked Answer For Everything (it says so right on the box!), so he hardly needs to waste his valuable time considering the value of those Answers. He just gives it another crank, and out comes Reassurances. See how straightforward it is? Aren't we foolish to not partake?
It's actually a terribly Pharasaic approach: If you do A, B, and C, and abjure D, E, and F, then, bingo! (as it were): you'll do easy time in Purgatory and be wafted up to Heaven ahead of the crowd.
Reason doesn't enter into it. I'm not sure faith necessarily does, either, as long as your ticket is punched in all the right places.
quote:
Being a miserable excuse for a human being hardly impinges on his sensibilities at all.
Well, he needn't consider others, because he's Right and we are Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. (But I'll bet we're more fun to be around.)
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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JonahMan
Shipmate
# 12126
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Posted
IngoB on the Catholic Church is always entertaining: the unintelligible in defence of the unspeakable.
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Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave
Posts: 914 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Dec 2006
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