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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The Myth of Christian Persecution
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Bane-of-piety
Apprentice
# 15267
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Posted
Yeah, I know historically Christians have been ruthlessly persecuted (we also persecuted others ruthlessly but that’s a different thread). What I am referring to is the myth of Christian persecution in the United States.
For my part, I was brought up evangelical fundamentalist. Long walk from what I am now. They prepared me for the “carnal world” that will “hate you” for the sake of Christ Just like the bible says. They would routinely rant angrily about the “activist, atheist secular culture” that is “currently going through the history books and REMOVEING GOD from our culture.”
They would claim that they new dozens of local teenagers who were harassed and even punished by their schools for being Christians and talking about God. They claimed they knew young people who had had their bibles taken from them in class and thrown away as a demonstration of the “foolishness of Christianity”.
I could go on and on about the terrible persecution they convinced me I would have to endure for Christ when I went on to high school. I moved on to high school. Nothing happened. The history books still referred to the various spiritual elements in colonial times (deism and Protestantism both). The English books still had passages from the bible. Kids brought bibles to school and wore Christian t-shirts if it pleased them to do so and the only words that came from teachers in reference too these items were words of support. If they disapproved, they simply ignored them.
Now I am a teacher. My textbook contains passages from the King James Bible. I teach theology to make literary points regularly and no one cares. Most of my fellow faculty members have faith of some kind. The district is not “Removing God” from the books, and the pledge still has the words “under God” in it. But when I go to church the myth of our persecution is still being preached to the masses and eagerly believed by the gullible.
My question is…Why do we need this myth of persecution? What is the appeal? What is the use? To me it inspired nothing but disillusionment when I realized it was bullshit. Why do Christians who are not being persecuted for their faith insist on pretending that they are?
I’d really love to hear what you folks think because frankly…I’m stumped.
P.S. I hear the situation is similar in English churches but I didn’t want to speak ignorantly on your behalf so please confirm or deny if you like.
[ 29. December 2014, 22:18: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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My dogma was old and sick...
So, I had it put to sleep :)
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
The situation is similar in Greece. Many religious people feel some sort of satisfaction by thinking they are being persecuted. Even though Orthodox Christianity is in Greece the state's religion.
I guess it makes people feel special, or something. A psychological analysis would be appropriate. I'm sure there are published studies on the issue.
Plus, some people cannot accept that their ideas have become irrelevant, that society moved on and is no longer interested in them. People sometimes interpret society's moving on as persecution because they lose the special position they once had, or thought they had, and they are not the center of attention.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Bane-of-piety
Apprentice
# 15267
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Posted
Good point. They also seem to feel persecution in adverse proportion to their ability to bully others in the name of God. When they can bully they are free. When they cant, their experianceing "persecution"
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My dogma was old and sick...
So, I had it put to sleep :)
Posts: 28 | From: United States | Registered: Nov 2009
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Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bane-of-piety:
My question is…Why do we need this myth of persecution? What is the appeal? What is the use? To me it inspired nothing but disillusionment when I realized it was bullshit. Why do Christians who are not being persecuted for their faith insist on pretending that they are?
I’d really love to hear what you folks think because frankly…I’m stumped.
P.S. I hear the situation is similar in English churches but I didn’t want to speak ignorantly on your behalf so please confirm or deny if you like.
It stumps me somewhat, too, but my guess is that people like to feel superior. Setting up a straw man to knock down makes us feel superior.
On the other hand, people enjoy fearing the boogeyman. All those government persecutors out there going to get you, so you'd better stay huddled inside the safe 4 walls of this particular church.
I hate these persecution arguments. We in the US have NO IDEA what real Christian persecution is and what some are enduring for Christ's sake. All we may have to put up with is a bit of embarrassment - others are still being killed.
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The fact that no one understands you does not make you an artist.
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Posts: 2767 | From: half-way up the ladder | Registered: May 2008
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
Playing devils advocate here, but I'm not so sure that a myth of persecution is necessarily such a bad thing. After all, Girolamo Savonarola taught that the advancing army of Charles VIII who were interested in taking Naples (and for whom Florence was on the way) was the tribulation prophesied by the book of Revelation.
Of course, it wasn't the tribulation prophesied by the book of Revelation. Unless, of course, Revelation has prophesied quite a lot of tribulations.
But I'm sure some good has come of it. Like Michelangelo's painting of the Sistine Chapel, for example. I'm sure Michelangelo probably got one or two of his ideas about symbolism from the things Savonarola said.
Not so sure there was a link between Girolamo Savonarola and Albrecht Dürer though - but I think Dürer's woodcuts absolutely rock.
Point is, a persecution complex is a very useful component in certain types of apocalyptic thought.
[ 12. February 2010, 21:47: Message edited by: Jessie Phillips ]
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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monkeylizard
Ship's scurvy
# 952
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
Point is, a persecution complex is a very useful component in certain types of apocalyptic thought.
Perhaps the persecution complex could be related to a viewpoint that the apocalypse is upon us. If a church teaches that the end of days is coming soon and that persecution precedes that event, then the Church must be being persecuted now. If it isn't being persecuted, then it can't be at the end.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)
Posts: 2201 | From: Music City, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
There are places where Christianity is being actively persecuted. I don't think any of these are in the USA or in Western Europe.
What I think I see more in some parts of the US is a sense of social disapproval and sometimes disgust. While these, if adhered to by a certain critical mass of people in the wrong circumstances, may feed into a system of persecution, I don't think such is on the event horizon at the moment.
What some fundies see as persecution may be a cultural shift into a space where Christianity can no longer be taken for granted as the dominant social institution. If one was formed in a tradition where Christianity is the assumed norm, to be moved into a space where it isn't may have the feel of being "persecuted," but to my (not-so-fundamentalist Christian) eyes, to call it persecution is an insult to those who experience real persecution in other parts of the world (such as India or Egypt.)
Also, I think some churches teach their kids to expect persecution because this persecution complex actually creates stronger group cohesion within those who feel so persecuted. It's a model in which the thing that really holds us together is the fear of the outgroup. We know who we are by those things that we exclude. It's an ultimately ghettoizing (and futile, in my eyes) ecclesiology, but that doesn't seem to stop people from promoting it.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
I would like to suggest that the persecution complex actually creates or provokes persecution.
There is a certain theology (unfortunately associated with the term 'evangelical') which states that "everyone who is not a committed Christian is by default under the wrath of God, a child of wrath, living in the kingdom of darkness, a slave of Satan" etc etc... (you get the picture). But reality does not seem to play ball with this theology (and, in my opinion, neither does the Bible when interpreted with a bit more care than by the average hack evangelical theologian). It is just not true that every non-Christian is a "nasty piece of work"; so those who espouse that theology have to believe that they are, and therefore even the smallest slight against the Christian faith (even if that slight is nothing more than apathy) is understood as 'persecution'. This interpretation of non-Christian behaviour is intended to shore up and confirm this "damnation by default" theology.
And then there is the Christian counter-response to this imagined persecution, which is an attitude of antagonism, which only has the effect of stirring up hatred, which may not have existed in the first place. People's lives are dredged for 'sin' in order to make them feel guilty enough to be candidates for the conversion strategy.
This attitude of antagonism towards the rest of the human race was the major blockage to my becoming a Christian. It was only when someone, whom I knew to be a committed Christian, actually showed me some real humility (and not the smarmy counterfeit) and a genuine interest in me as a human being and not as a "potential convert", that I was willing to respond.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673
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Posted
The last two posts, IMO, are dead-on (and better articulated than mine).
It also explains why there is a lot of preaching and fear about "other" now that there are more "others" out there. It's why some believe those fear-mongering e-mails no matter how easy it is to disprove them.
I had a conversation recently where a guy was recounting a sermon he'd heard. The preacher, it didn't sound like was really proclaiming the word of God, but rather giving a talk that encourages this "group cohesion" by demonizing the "other."
In this case, it was about Muslims. Some quote by President Obama saying he liked hearing the trumpets calling people to prayer (??? I've never found it and I'd never heard that before so I don't know where this preacher heard it). The preacher went on to present a slippery slope argument. First there's tolerance. We tolerate things and like a frog sitting in a pan of hot water - we can be getting hotter without even knowing it. Then there's acceptance. Then there's (something else) and then "they" take over and we are now their subjects. In this case, Muslims are in a sinister and subversive, cleverly-laid-out plot to rob America of its Christianity.
It's hard to even have a conversation with folks who think like that. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 2767 | From: half-way up the ladder | Registered: May 2008
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
I doubt it was persecution when my kids' agemates in gradeschool got a chance to learn all about Native American religious pratices, and some Wiccan stuff, but the powers-that-be shrieked like vampires in the sun over the many-years' tradition of Gideon Bibles being handed out to any student who wanted one.
I doubt it was persecution when I was not allowed to select Christian music for "background music" in a couple of different workplaces over the years, for fear it might offend -- while the alternatives actually selected glorified drinkin' and druggin' and tom-cattin' around to excess, which was horribly offensive to me.
I doubt it was persecution when I was asked, in different situations, usually in a job, to compromise my principles, or lie to a customer or caller. I have been blessed to find a way out of it more often than not, but there have been times when normal procedures that didn't bother the bosses or managers have felt very, very slimy to me.
I doubt any of that was persecution. But it was something.
We are seldom if ever actually, openly, threat-of-death persecuted in the West. We do lose jobs, and lose friends, and find ourselves speaking the very same words another person might speak, while meaning something absolutely different. We are a subculture in the midst of the culture.
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bane-of-piety:
...
I’d really love to hear what you folks think because frankly…I’m stumped.
...
Mormons teach the same thing. I was raised on "our religion is not understood and we are often persecuted by the ignorant around us."
In addition, Mormons see themselves as members of the "one true and living church upon the face of the whole earth in which the Lord is well pleased." Scripture promises persecutions upon the faithful. If you're not being persecuted, then you are not living your religion, because "the world" hates true believers, etc.
So even if there is no persecution going on you have to believe it, see it, or the lack of it is a rebuke to your faith.
Going along with this is the regular preaching of "the end times". As they approach, the world at large has to get more wicked. I hear this every week: how the wicked are increasing in number around us, and getting "worse than Sodom and Gomorah", etc. Yet none of this is demonstrated by the facts. The world is IN FACT better than ever, with more cooperation between cultures and peoples and governments than ever before; not to mention the enormous advances made in raising our standard of living. People are more inclined to be "live and let live" in their associating. Rudeness and coarseness are always with us, but they are not proliferating. Movies are not promoting wickedness any more than they ever have. Kids love to "rebel" by whatever pisses off their parents. No change there either. Life goes on but only the uber religious cannot seem to see the world as it is. Rather than seeing a looming destruction of everything in an apocalypse, we see improvements far outweighing the dangers. Where is the Millennial wickedness prophesied? It seems to be drying up and blowing away (thank God)....
Posts: 3499 | Registered: Jan 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
I doubt it was persecution when my kids' agemates in gradeschool got a chance to learn all about Native American religious pratices, and some Wiccan stuff, but the powers-that-be shrieked like vampires in the sun over the many-years' tradition of Gideon Bibles being handed out to any student who wanted one.
I don't know the particular circumstances of your grade school, but most of the Gideon cases [PDF] I'm familiar with hinge on the fact that the Gideons were granted special access to students in school facilities during regular school hours, access that was not available to any other religious group.
Like most religious groups, they howl "persecution" when they're forced to play by the same rules as everyone else.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Like most religious groups, they howl "persecution" when they're forced to play by the same rules as everyone else.
That's true - much of what is called 'persecution' in the west is merely (what's left of) Christendom coming to terms with the fact that it is no longer the only show in town.
However, religious persecution is very real right across the rest of the globe (if not in the west). Maybe it was not the intention of the OP but I've noticed that often these discussions begin to imply that all this talk of persecution is exaggerated across the board. It's not!
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
...
What some fundies see as persecution may be a cultural shift into a space where Christianity can no longer be taken for granted as the dominant social institution. If one was formed in a tradition where Christianity is the assumed norm, to be moved into a space where it isn't may have the feel of being "persecuted," but to my (not-so-fundamentalist Christian) eyes, to call it persecution is an insult to those who experience real persecution in other parts of the world (such as India or Egypt.)
Also, I think some churches teach their kids to expect persecution because this persecution complex actually creates stronger group cohesion within those who feel so persecuted. ...
Bravo! The 'cultural shift' you talk of is probably more pronounced in Australia than it is in the USA IMHO, or, it may well be that we are, from our particular colonial origins in 1788, more inclined to agnosticism than Americans.
There is certainly resentment that certain weird groups, like the Particular Brethren - a classic 'closed' group - receive public monies for their (rather bizarre) schools but this is more due to their weirdness than their religiosity.
Christians claiming religious persecution in the West would, I think, be suffering from paranoia rather than persecution.
Christians in India, China and the Middle East would not, I fear, be being paranoid but realistic.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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Stowaway John
Shipmate
# 15469
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Posted
Hi Bane of Piety
I became a Christian when I was 15 years old, 27 years ago. I hear what you are saying on the 'persecution complex' front, whereby Christians can sometimes bring harm upon themselves by their 'holding back' out of fear of persecution.
That aside, which I would describe as 'suffering for getting it wrong', from my own experience there is genuine persecution which I would call 'suffering for getting it RIGHT'. In the UK this for me has SOMETIMES meant exclusion from social (inc.)family events, name calling, being cheated and taken advantage of, being hated and harassed at work, falsely accused etc, etc.
Jesus' words to us were that if 'they' (that is the 'ungodly' and the 'religious' -Satan's dream team) hated me, you can be sure they're going to hate you as my followers.
Like or hate it, you can't avoid it. "He that would live godly in this age WILL suffer persecution". We can thank God that in the West persecution is relatively 'mild' by global standards. An estimated 220 million Christians live under moderate to severe persecution including the death penalty for conversion. Check out OpenDoors' website for more info'. Hope this helps.
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Step out of the boat.
Posts: 93 | From: North Wales | Registered: Feb 2010
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Johnny S: did you actually read any of the posts before your own?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
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Posted
quote:
I don't know the particular circumstances of your grade school, but most of the Gideon cases [PDF] I'm familiar with hinge on the fact that the Gideons were granted special access to students in school facilities during regular school hours, access that was not available to any other religious group.
Like most religious groups, they howl "persecution" when they're forced to play by the same rules as everyone else.
I remember very clearly in elementary school (early 1960s) a special assembly was held in the school cafeteria, and every kid was given a Gideon bible. This same opportunity was not accorded other religious groups. I can't remember what my response was at that age, but my dad was Baha'i and I knew at a very early age that Christianity was not the only religious path, and having New Testaments (that is what we got, not even the whole Bible) handed out in a school-sponsored event was like putting the imprimatur on one faith over another. Quite honestly, I think that the Gideon organization having that kind of access to schools (captive audience) is creepy and I'm glad it was stopped.
Janine wrote:
"I doubt it was persecution when I was asked, in different situations, usually in a job, to compromise my principles, or lie to a customer or caller. I have been blessed to find a way out of it more often than not, but there have been times when normal procedures that didn't bother the bosses or managers have felt very, very slimy to me."
I'm really sorry this happened, but the way this is phrased, one could read into this that (a) you were asked to compromise your principles because of being targeted as Christian (whereas other co-workers were not), or (b) that only Christians would resist compromising their principles on the job, or (c) that non-Christian people engage in shady business practices because they are not Christians, or (d) conversely, that Christians do not engage in shady business practices because they are Christians. B through D are simply not true.
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
The most helpful definition of "persecution" on dictionary.com is:
quote:
a program or campaign to exterminate, drive away, or subjugate a people because of their religion, race, or beliefs:
I do not think anything suffered by Christians in the west meets this standard and it is insulting to those in some Islamic countries and elsewhere, where there are anti-Christian campaigns, to imply that we are persecuted.
On the subject of why some insist that they are, I think MtM made a sensible point:
quote:
Scripture promises persecutions upon the faithful. If you're not being persecuted, then you are not living your religion, because "the world" hates true believers, etc.
So even if there is no persecution going on you have to believe it, see it, or the lack of it is a rebuke to your faith.
I have in the past met Christians who appeared to believe that. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
On the other hand, if by "Christian persecution" you mean "persecution by Christians", then yeah, that still exists in the west.
[ 13. February 2010, 20:22: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Great googly moogly. I thought that kind of thing was limited to Alabama and Kansas.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
It's silly to want to wear a cross? ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I think the burning of African-American church buildings in the American South certainly does qualify as persecution, but I think it is not, for the most part, based on religion but on race.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Yes I remember that part of the Bible. The "thou shalt not wear jewelry that leo disapproves of" part. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
It's funny how in the US, many right-wing Christians would tell probably tell you that the ACLU is the big persecutor of Christians. And yet...
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Yes the ACLU are lefties because they stand for justice even for people we don't like.* For shame! So the fact that they also stand up for Christians must be downplayed or hushed up because they're evil liberals and can't possibly do good.
*plus they stand for the liberal pinko amendments, and not just the righteous, godly amendment (by which of course they mean the 2nd).
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Cro, that article was pretty effing terrifying...
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Yes I remember that part of the Bible. The "thou shalt not wear jewelry that leo disapproves of" part.
How about 1 Timothy 2 Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire,
Or Isaiah 3 In that day the Lord will take away the finery of the anklets, the headbands, and the crescents; the pendants, the bracelets, and the scarves; the headdresses, the armlets, the sashes, the perfume boxes, and the amulets; the signet rings and nose rings;
Or Ezekiel 16: And I adorned you with ornaments and put bracelets on your wrists and a chain on your neck. And I put a ring on your nose and earrings in your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your clothing was of fine linen and silk and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour and honey and oil. You grew exceedingly beautiful and advanced to royalty…… But you trusted in your beauty, and played the whore because of your fame, and lavished your whorings on any passer-by. You took some of your garments, and made for yourself colourful shrines, and on them played the whore; nothing like this has ever been or ever shall be. You also took your beautiful jewels of my gold and my silver that I had given you
Or Genesis 35 So they gave to Jacob all the foreign gods that they had, and the rings that were in their ears. Jacob hid them under the terebinth tree that was near Shechem.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
They had earrings in Genesis 35? Where does it say they were bad? If you're that bad at glossing that verse, I don't trust you to gloss the others.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Johnny S: did you actually read any of the posts before your own?
Yes. All of them.
Did you read my post?
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes - the early Christians didn't and they lived through great persecution. The cross is not a piece of pretty necklace. We are called to carry it, not wear it as a piece of jewellery.
By their fruits ye shall know them, not by cheap badges.
I think there are four categories here. You've got folks with no fruits and no jewelry, those with no fruits and jewelry, those with fruits and no jewelry, and those with fruits and jewelry.
The verse, to me, seems to imply that appearances are irrelevant, not that they have to be one way or another.
On the OT references, would you similarly cite 1 Corinthians and insist that I get my hair cut?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
There is indeed such a thing as persecution in the West, though I agree it is much less common than many think.
The most obvious case I think of involves a widow with several children who came from a largely Muslim culture but who was a Christian and wished to remain so (and to baptize her children, too). The local Muslim community of her ethnic background had her house basically staked out. Huge pressure on her to renounce Christ, threats of violence, Christian visitors having their tires slashed (that'd be me, then)...
She finally moved to another state to try to get away from her tormentors.
I've known various people, mostly but NOT ALL from minority groups, who got thrown out of their families for becoming Christians.
I have myself had my ass chewed out for several minutes by the department chair as I stood in front of thirty grad school classmates for my bloody Christianity and having the cheek to mention it in class. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) The funny thing was, I never said word one about Christianity at all. We were discussing the Merchant of Venice and I volunteered something about Maimonides and rabbinic tradition. Think maybe the prof needs some diversity training so he can keep his religions straight. As it was, I just pulled up my big girl panties and got on with life.
Equally foolish in a different way was the young idiot who pulled a knife on me in high school and demanded I renounce Christ. I gibbered a bit, said no, he demanded why, I gave him some totally unhinged reply, and he then said he was "just testing" and put the knife away. Weirdo. But I didn't need coffee the rest of the day, anyway.
This is all (mostly) a very long way from coping with rape and murder on account of one's faith. And I'm okay if y'all don't want to call it persecution. But what DO you call it, then? Harassment? Maybe that's the right term.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
In my part of the country, pastors and parents warn students that the librul faculty at the local college will try to turn them librul. They are warned to be on their guard against us, and to disbelieve what they hear in class.
Part of the joke is that -- well, I know most of the faculty, and most aren't what I'd call liberal.
The rest of the joke, unfortunately, is on the students themselves, who on the advice of their pastors refuse to do the critical thinking and reflection necessary to higher education. They thereby limit themselves to memorize-and-spit-back basic classes and job training. That's just enough to give them an insecure footing on the bottom rungs of the employment ladder, where they acquire plenty of stored resentment to take with them to Tea Party rallies. And of course, feel persecuted.
So it goes.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
In my part of the country, pastors and parents warn students that the librul faculty at the local college will try to turn them librul. They are warned to be on their guard against us, and to disbelieve what they hear in class.
Part of the joke is that -- well, I know most of the faculty, and most aren't what I'd call liberal.
The rest of the joke, unfortunately, is on the students themselves, who on the advice of their pastors refuse to do the critical thinking and reflection necessary to higher education. They thereby limit themselves to memorize-and-spit-back basic classes and job training. That's just enough to give them an insecure footing on the bottom rungs of the employment ladder, where they acquire plenty of stored resentment to take with them to Tea Party rallies. And of course, feel persecuted.
So it goes.
So...we should ban such people? I see the problem, I'm just not sure how you could "regulate" a solution short of thought-policing...
If you try to close or restrain these churches, then they'll have every right to say they're being persecuted. They might be justly persecuted, but closing them down for having the wrong views is still persecution, IMO.
[ 15. February 2010, 03:06: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I think part of the persecution complex is to do with the loss of privilege. Here in France evangelicals are a small minority of the population (in the region of one per cent) and we have no delusions of grandeur or expectations that we can run the country. We just have to get on with living out our faith in the way we think best. (Incidentally, in some parts of the country, there have been incidents of what could properly be called persecution, for example being refused a bank account for being part of a perfectly ordinary, boring Baptist church. Add to that a history of state-sponsored religious massacres a couple of centuries back.)
For us, the idea of being a significant voting constituency, for example, is quite a comical one. Ain't never going to happen. There is precisely no interest for politicians in pandering to us. All we can do is pray for the President of the Republic that God would help him lead the country wisely (whether we agree with / voted for him or not). On the other hand, if one has been used to special consideration, I can see how it would feel threatening for it to start to disappear.
[ 15. February 2010, 10:48: Message edited by: la vie en rouge ]
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bane-of-piety:
Christian persecution in the United States.
Haven't heard of any that I can recall at this time.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
There is an equally powerful myth of atheist persecution in North America as well, which is equally hogwash (for the most part -- not to say that there might not be individual, isolated examples of genuine persecution against any group). Lots of atheists are quick to cry out that they're being persecuted when people don't agree with them or give their views equal airing.
Isn't it possible that there's something genuine at the heart of both the Christian's and the atheist's (and other groups) cry of "Help, help, I'm being repressed!"? That is, that anyone with strongly held beliefs that differ from the mainstream in their community, school, or workplace, is probably going to face some difficulty when they express those beliefs (and the more vocal they are in their beliefs, the more vocal the opposition is likely to be). Of course, this is not real persecution, and calling it that is a slap in the face to anyone in any place or time, of any background, who has suffered real persecution. It's not persecution, but it's not nothing. It's disapproval, criticism, maybe ridicule. And if you want to teach your young Christians, or your young atheists, to be firm in what they believe, you have to teach them that they will encounter disapproval, criticism, and ridicule, and how to stand up to that.
I think it's unfortunate that Christian churches often use the language of persecution from the Bible to do this kind of teaching, because it trivializes real persecution and obscures the fact that others experience the same kind of disapproval, even if they're not Christians. Sometimes I think modern Western Christians like to point to these Biblical passages when exhorting each other to be strong in the faith, because they feel a little guilty that they're not being persecuted. So you convince yourself that the societal disapproval you sometimes experience is actually persecution.
So teenage Christian Sally is made to feel that when her friends laugh at her for wearing a "Jesus Saves" T-shift, she is experiencing "persecution" and should feel something in common with martyrs being torn apart by lions in Roman arenas. When what she's really experiencing is mild ridicule of someone for holding a strongly-expressed but slightly marginal viewpoint, and the person she should really feel a common bond with is her atheist classmate Johnny who was told by another student that he was going to burn in hell for saying there was no god. Unfortunately, both Sally and Johnny have probably been so firmly indoctrinated in their worldviews (and possibly in the belief that they're being "persecuted") that they see each other as the enemy rather than recognizing the similarities in their experience.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
On the other hand, if by "Christian persecution" you mean "persecution by Christians", then yeah, that still exists in the west.
I'm not sure if it's the earnestness of the author or whether the attorney or the plaintiffs are responsible for the perception s/he created but I have to admit sympathy for the school board.
The alleged persecutees don't come across like the 'live and let live' type, at all.
*koff*
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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sanityman
Shipmate
# 11598
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
anyone with strongly held beliefs that differ from the mainstream in their community, school, or workplace, is probably going to face some difficulty when they express those beliefs (and the more vocal they are in their beliefs, the more vocal the opposition is likely to be). Of course, this is not real persecution, and calling it that is a slap in the face to anyone in any place or time, of any background, who has suffered real persecution. It's not persecution, but it's not nothing. It's disapproval, criticism, maybe ridicule. And if you want to teach your young Christians, or your young atheists, to be firm in what they believe, you have to teach them that they will encounter disapproval, criticism, and ridicule, and how to stand up to that.
Great post, Trudy Scruptious. I'm reminded of an acquaintance at my last church who claimed that they'd been made redundant from their last job because they were a Christian. Knowing the person, who had had a string of jobs previous to this, and had problems which were nothing to do with religion, I doubt this was the case, even if their old boss wasn't a Christian. As Trudy says, anyone with views is going to attract some criticism/ridicule, and this just isn't persecution.
There seems to be a collective feeling that, because we've been told the world will hate Jesus' followers, being hated is proof that we're "doing it right." Anecdotes like the above are then passed around, never being questioned, and act as confirmation that They are against Us.
Being a Christian won't be popular. But it should be unpopular because of what you do - like associating with marginalised people in society, refusing to unthinkingly conform to the in-group, and so on - not because you hang a label around your necks and get up other people's noses, and certainly not because you have a Thin Skin For Christ™.
- Chris.
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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot
Posts: 1453 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I've received more 'persecution' for singing in a robed church choir by Christians than I ever have from non-Christians (or non-church-attenders), who are generally rather interested to hear all about it.
I don't think it counts as persecution when you get general critical comments. But when your group (whatever it is) is forced out of existence by a sustained campaign, then I think it is. And that is often more likely to occur within Christian churches than against them.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
How about... list of bible verses
My God, anyone would think you were a bible-thumping evangelical literalist, Leo.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Johnny S: did you actually read any of the posts before your own?
Yes. All of them.
Did you read my post?
Your initial post met with my approval, Johnny!
Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
These silly people who want to wear crosses or who want to pay with people who don't want to be prayed for embarrass me and make me want top deny the term 'Christian' because I don't want to be associated with their unproffessionalism.
Really? That would be like me wanting to drop the epithet Christian to distance myself from your orthography: hardly proportionate, and demonstrating no great loyalty to that identity in the first place.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
In my part of the country, pastors and parents warn students that the librul faculty at the local college will try to turn them librul. They are warned to be on their guard against us, and to disbelieve what they hear in class.
Part of the joke is that -- well, I know most of the faculty, and most aren't what I'd call liberal.
...
Aah! Misinformed fear of 'the intelligentsia'! Pity they didn't read Milton's 'Areopagitica'.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
As others have noted, I think that most perceived "persecution" in the U.S. is just societal pushback against culturally aggressive Evangelicalism. Many Evangelicals are not satisfied with being equal societal partners in a multicultural society; they want to "win the world for Christ" by any means necessary, including coopting local governments and school systems. Going back to the thread on the sad state of general biblical literacy -- IMHO a lot of that has to do with conservative Christians militating for control of "hearts and minds" in public schools, effectively poisoning the well for any kind of reasoned, non-polarizing discussion about the wisdom of including religious material in a non-proselytizing way in general education. Because many conservative Christians don't understand/don't accept "non-proselytizing" in a a public educational context -- including the KJV in English lit classes; including information about the religious component of early American settlement; etc. Because they don't just want to be acknowledged; they want to "win" a cultural war that's largely of their own making.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
Persecution is too strong a word, in most cases, for what Christians encounter in U.S. society.
However, there is a genuine problem with Christianity being singled out for restrictions in the name of multiculturalism and neutrality.
There is also a broader society that runs the hedonistic treadmill to the exclusion of meaningful faith of any kind.
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stowaway John:
Jesus' words to us were that if 'they' (that is the 'ungodly' and the 'religious' -Satan's dream team) hated me, you can be sure they're going to hate you as my followers.
Seems very likely that those who are totally dedicated to evil will hate the good.
But for those of us who are fortunate enough to live in the West, the experience of seeing the good hated by the evil is less common than the experience of seeing some bigoted anti-intellectuals with a siege mentality despised by some members of the more secular-minded liberal majority.
And the mis-use of the sort of Scripture you refer to - to "explain" the latter situation - can give rise to a strong desire to dissociate oneself from that whole approach to religion. Even in those who are strongly attached to the founder of the religion...
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
However, there is a genuine problem with Christianity being singled out for restrictions in the name of multiculturalism and neutrality.
Can you think of any examples?
Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
I agree with Trudy and Chorister. Almost everyone will run into some sort of disagreement with their views. How one deals with it is the difference between feeling persecuted or realising that others have different opinions.
For instance, I never get to hear the music I like in my workplace because no one else wants to listen to it (to use one of Janine's examples). I am aware that the music of the 12th-19th centuries is not many ordinary people's cup of tea. I also realise that I am somewhat out of step with my colleagues in terms of tastes. Sad for me, but I rank getting on with my colleagues higher than trying to push my preferences onto them.
My observations of ordinary people's views on Christianity suggest that many, shall we say, dogmatic Christians, don't have this understanding of live and let live. They try to push their views on their peers and then cry discrimination when those peers push back. Its a very fragile way of being and certainly not conducive to spreading the gospel.
In the marketplace of ideas, Christianity is just one more idea. While some may hold it dear, others don't, and don't want to. Some may be obnoxious about it, but the Christian thing to do is stay calm and turn the other cheek. As I teach my clients, say "I'm sorry you feel like that" and walk away.
Like Chorister, I have experienced far more "persecution" from Christians than anyone else. And sadly, that is the stuff that non-Christians see most of out in the marketplace of ideas.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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