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Source: (consider it) Thread: Circus: Mafia on the Planet Dimthing Tourist Bus
Autenrieth Road

Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
Maybe but I know lynching me would be unhelpful. I'm pretty sure Hoptrig is innocent, and while I don't know about Cho, I don't want to take the risk.

Ja'ayem, to me you are setting off almost as huge jangly alarm bells of positively broadcasting "I am Guilty" as Choey does. You both say things that sometimes seem crazy, and then other times you say things that sound reasonable.

I was going to reply to this post of yours by saying, sarcastically, "oh, so it must be Choey, Otto, and Codine." And then I thought, "wait a second, if you look at voting patterns in the Reppik Tew vote, that can work." Every other threesome I've tried from my Suspected Five fails at making any sense given the Reppik Tew voting patterns. I haven't tried all possibilities yet, and I haven't double checked my work, but this is notable, to get a trio that works as Guilty in the Reppik Tew voting.

I'm still going to examine everything though. Don't think you (or any of the Guilty) are getting off this easily. (Including there could be more Baroque explanations for some of the wierd voting patterns shown when you try to assume certain trios Guilty.)

(This may not be convincing to people who still have me and/or Eliabulon on their suspected list.)

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

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Oh wait, I see I had also proposed Ja'ayem, Hophtrig, and Codine or Otto as a pair of threesomes that could work. Hmmmm. (And for my pains, I got the usually elusive Codine to pop up and say she's Not Guilty.)

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ariston
Insane Unicorn
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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
(This may not be convincing to people who still have me and/or Eliabulon on their suspected list.)

I'm not really sure how many of those people there are still on the bus, if any.

Alright, looking over vote patterns (I'm just beginning to read over yesterday's events, so bear with me), and given the usual assumptions about who's innocent, I'm wondering if the Possessed might not have voted en bloc for TESS; after all, the only one of us still under any suspicion who voted for any other option who is still alive is Otto. To make any other threesome (given that they have to include Reppik and his TESS nonvote) is to assume that the Possessed did not split their vote, as is often assumed. Therefore, the only combination that fits these assumptions and the first two days voting patterns is:

Reppik, Choey, Otto; Ja'ayem or Codine, cultist

Assuming all Possessed voted for TESS the first day, but split their votes the second, we get (taking into account statements of suspicion made the first day):

Reppik, Ja'ayem, Choey; Hophtrig cultist
R, Codine, Choey; Hophtrig cultist
R, Otto, Choey; Codine cultist (this is the only workable combination that assumes Otto is Possessed, given that Ja'ayem and Hophtrig cast early votes against Otto, which would be risky for a cultist who could not coordinate with the Possessed—and could likely condemn Otto if things didn't go just right later)
R, Hophtrig, Codine; Otto cultist
R, Hophtrig, Ja'ayem; Otto cultist

Unless I'm missing something, every other combination involves the cultist casting suspicion on the Possessed (which would be bad for the cultist, if not counterproductive), violation of some rule or other, or is just generally insane. That, of course, is assuming I missed nothing. Given that I'm distracted by desire for chicory coffee and beignets (thank you, John, that's exactly the thing I need to spend all day thinking about while I have no way of getting, much less, as a not quite ordinarily corporeal being, eating), that's not unlikely.

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505

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Interesting how often Hophtrig comes up in that list, isn't it? Interesting that Lady Celandine, Lesley and Ios had suspicions of Hophtrig early and that early on Hophtrig suggested John, Crimson and Lesley for eviction. All of them were innocent of course. By nominating Otto early on, Hophtrig could have been trying to lead the voting away from Reppik Tew. I still believe he is either mafioso or the sympathizer.

I am as resigned at having to leave the bus as Joostein was, and will happily vote against myself to prove it, as I have promised to follow the lead of John and Zapatarietxe. But, like Joostein, I am innocent. The dark angel may as well be one of the mafia, for all the good he is doing for the cause of we innocent passengers. 100% wrong twice in a row is not what we need at this point.

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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.

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Alban
Shipmate
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Please, Choey, don't vote yourself off. Hophtrig would miss you. You are a wonderful being, and your vote is important - using it for anything you do not believe would be a very bad thing, and would help the naughty people.
You are very clever at counting, Choey. Our friend Zapaterietxe suggested more ideas which have Hophtrig as naughty than he did any other being on the bus. Hophtrig will be interested to see what John thinks, too. But even if John votes for Hophtrig to leave, Hophtrig will not, because Hophtrig thinks it would be better if a naughty person got off.

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Whoever you are, wherever you go, Hophtrig is your friend!

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Surfing Madness
Shipmate
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Daisy would have said something useful from the other side, if she had anything useful to say!


(In reality real life attacked alot during this game that I didn't really manage to get involved, sorry guys.)

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I now blog about all my crafting! http://inspiredbybroadway.blogspot.co.uk

Posts: 1542 | From: searching for the jam | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Barefoot Friar

Ship's Shoeless Brother
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John doesn't quite know what to think, which is why John hasn't posted much.

None of the suspects are particularly suspicious to me at the moment.

I may nominate someone later... I want to think a bit first.

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
(This may not be convincing to people who still have me and/or Eliabulon on their suspected list.)

I'm not really sure how many of those people there are still on the bus, if any.
Ja'ayem appears to still include Eliabulon and me in the group of suspects, because he thinks there could be three Guilty in the group of Otto, Codine, Ios, Eliabulon.

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

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Here's something wierd: at first Ja'ayem is going strictly by the numbers: more likely to find cultists in the group of 4 than the group of 3. Let's leave aside whether his purely probabilistic calculation is correct. Then he rules out himself and Hophtrig from the group of 3. Then, instead of saying "Wow, I've just increased the 33% probabiligy of hitting a Guilty in this group to 100% probability; Choey you're toast" (at least assuming there's some merit in Eliabulon's idea of why we should hunt in this group), no, instead of saying that, he says "I don't want to risk lynching Choey."

That seems deeply bizarre to me.

Could Ja'ayem, Hophtrig, Choey as Guilty make sense in the Reppik Tew vote, with Hophtrig as the Sympathizer, to explain Choey's early vote against him?

This is all preliminary, as I'm still reading the archives to refresh my memory on what happened, before thinking about what it might mean. I'm popping in occasionally to post here, reporting some thoughts I'm having as I have them, but nothing's definite for me yet.

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Truth

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Barefoot Friar

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Choey is claiming to be another Lesley or Joostein -- one who looks suspicious but who is actually innocent.

I don't know whether or not to believe that.

But she does say one thing that is correct: Today we cannot afford to lynch an innocent. Whomever we choose must be guilty. I would go a step further and say that I'd much rather have a guilty than a sympathizer. Getting the sympathizer only buys us another day. Getting one of the guilty brings this ordeal closer to a satisfactory end.

I will repeat what I said earlier. Ja'ayem is looking more and more suspicious to me. I don't have time to build a case at the moment, but when I do have some time I intend to figure out just what the heck is going on.

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Gwai
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# 11076

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Codine stepped forward, and nodded toward Eliabulon.
"Thank you for the reminder about the sympathizer, Graffin. You are right of course. That theory implies Otto is not one of the two, but he might well be a sympathizer. That does imply though that if I'm thinking that way I should focus more on Ja'ayem or Cho' Bacca. (Still not sure at all about her. If she's innocent why is she so obsessed with Hophtrig. After all, she said she would follow John, but now she's nominating her old flame. Still, I will look at him again. Maybe I'm wrong to trust crazy Hophtrig. Either way though I don't think it is in our interest that I nominate someone as long as a person I am somewhat suspicious of has already been nominated."

quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Oh wait, I see I had also proposed Ja'ayem, Hophtrig, and Codine or Otto as a pair of threesomes that could work. Hmmmm. (And for my pains, I got the usually elusive Codine to pop up and say she's Not Guilty.)

Codine smiled. "HE is not guity, ma'am. I wear a hood and cover my skin, because that is my culture, but you may trust that I am male."

"Codine is thinking, and note that he is happy to share his suspicions etc. Codine just doesn't talk to fill space in some hope that if he makes enough noise you'll trust him. I'm going to presume you are all too smart for that.

However, you have seen my thoughts. The problem is that we all mostly agree generally about where suspicion lies. Anyone who has left clearly has not sent up a huge red flag about their guilt or we'd have caught them by now, so it's the more thoughtful detailed theorizing that will win the day now." Codine turned back toward the Graffin again. "And no, don't worry, Eliabulon, I am not advocating silence."

[ 25. March 2014, 12:32: Message edited by: Gwai ]

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Autenrieth Road

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Sir Codine, I most deeply apologize for confusion about your gender, and am most grateful that this apparently is not quite a mortal insult in your culture that would have required us to fight a duel to the death. This aisle is a bit too small for such a duel, should it have been necessary, and I understand that the xtonic radiation outside, had we taken our duel outside in favour of the greater space available for dueling, would have stopped our duel before we had even completed our 20 paces away from each other.

I did think, even as I posted, that in all fairness you may be one who is always reading but only posting when you have something to say. Unlike, say, me, who is also always reading, and always can think of something to say.

I make no judgement on whether my way is better or not, just that we're very different in that regard. What would a Bus Tour be like without having to consider, not only logic, behaviour, and psychology, but also fundamental differences which cause the Innocent to all act completely differently from each other? Of course, I also think of you as someone who is able to say the most astonishingly Innocent-sounding things while being completely Guilty (this is a compliment) so I am not convinced either way of anything yet. But I am considering what you have said.

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Eliab
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# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Of course, I also think of you as someone who is able to say the most astonishingly Innocent-sounding things while being completely Guilty

Intercepting sub-space communication from USS Pot to IKV Kettle....

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Autenrieth Road

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In my rereading of the Bus Tour Archives, I have come to this and I'm stuck because it has lodged itself in my brain and I'm finding it hard to ignore it and keep reading. It may well be completely moot at this point, but can anyone explain it? This is for the sake of clearing my mind so I can continue reading without being distracted from more pressing issues by this.

Eliabulon and Joostein on early strategy:

quote:
Originally posted by Joostein:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliabulon:
I am not convinced zat ve should not evict somevun. I think zat is trusting too much in our investigators to solve ze puzzle for us. Ve do not have to be very unlucky for zat to fail.[/qb

[qb]Wroong. Bäddies oonly oone kill æch night. If they be quick lucky we knoow änd ädäpt. If they very lucky we noo loose twoo nights, oonly oone. Minoor looss. Blooting noow incræse their oodds. Unless sure. Yoou tälk Looke änd loook Midgärd Serpent, soo foor yoou I think of mäke exc... exce... spec... spe... spexceptiäl cäse. Ooff-throow foor being bäddie, noot foor seeing foolk's vootings.
Can anyone explain what Joostein is saying? I gather that J and E are disagreeing about the proper early strategy based just on numbers, but I can't figure out how to state the two strategies explicitly, nor how to compare them. Help?

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
In my rereading of the Bus Tour Archives, I have come to this and I'm stuck because it has lodged itself in my brain and I'm finding it hard to ignore it and keep reading. It may well be completely moot at this point, but can anyone explain it? This is for the sake of clearing my mind so I can continue reading without being distracted from more pressing issues by this.

Eliabulon and Joostein on early strategy:

quote:
Originally posted by Joostein:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliabulon:
I am not convinced zat ve should not evict somevun. I think zat is trusting too much in our investigators to solve ze puzzle for us. Ve do not have to be very unlucky for zat to fail.[/qb

[qb]Wroong. Bäddies oonly oone kill æch night. If they be quick lucky we knoow änd ädäpt. If they very lucky we noo loose twoo nights, oonly oone. Minoor looss. Blooting noow incræse their oodds. Unless sure. Yoou tälk Looke änd loook Midgärd Serpent, soo foor yoou I think of mäke exc... exce... spec... spe... spexceptiäl cäse. Ooff-throow foor being bäddie, noot foor seeing foolk's vootings.
Can anyone explain what Joostein is saying? I gather that J and E are disagreeing about the proper early strategy based just on numbers, but I can't figure out how to state the two strategies explicitly, nor how to compare them. Help?
[ETA: Dear E: [Big Grin] . Signed, Pot.]

[ 25. March 2014, 14:35: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

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Sorry, confused the Edit and the Quote buttons.

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barefoot Friar

Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100

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The Grafinn wanted to throw someone off the first day. Joostein's point was that such a decision is highly likely to lynch an innocent. Joostein decided that the Grafinn's suggestion was too bloodthirsty, unlikely to work, and possibly even caused by Possession.

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Alban
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That intercom is annoying when it repeats things, isn't it Ios.
Hophtrig's automatic subtitle writer came up with this, if it is of any use:

quote:

Eliab:
I am not convinced that not evicting someone is wise. I think puts too much trust in our investigators to solve the puzzle for us. It would not take much bad luck for that to fail.

Joostein:
You are incorrect. The possessed can only kill one of us each night. If our investigators are lucky we know this and adapt to same. If they are very lucky, we will not lose an innocent on two nights, but only the one. This would only be a minor loss. Making a sacrifice now will only increase their odds of success, unless we are certain who it is we want to sacrifice. Your speech and appearance are evil, so I believe we can make an exception for you. We can throw you off as a being who is possessed, not merely to see how people vote.



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Whoever you are, wherever you go, Hophtrig is your friend!

Posts: 722 | From: Under a (long white) cloud | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alban
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# 9047

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John is so clever. He summarised it so much better than Hophtrig's translator. And Hophtrig didn't even notice John there until Hophtrig looked back and saw what John said.
Here, John, come into the hidey hole, sing and drink with your friends for a while. We're having so much fun in here!

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Whoever you are, wherever you go, Hophtrig is your friend!

Posts: 722 | From: Under a (long white) cloud | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

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John and Hophtrig both gave helpful translations. Using both together helped me even more than one alone. What good friends Ios and John and Hophtrig are, even if Ios is not yet sure if a naughty being has possessed Hophtrig's mind or not.

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alban
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Ios!
Big Hug for Ios!!
Ios is so sweet and kind and thoughtful! And Hophtrig's good friend Ios even sounds a little bit like Hophtrig. Hophtrig likes that! Big Hug!!

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Whoever you are, wherever you go, Hophtrig is your friend!

Posts: 722 | From: Under a (long white) cloud | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alban
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Oh, Hophtrig is so inconsiderate sometimes. Sorry friends, Hophtrig has big hugs for everyone!!
Ja'Ayem, here's a hug for you, you quiet, thoughtful creature. I hope we can get this bus started and give you your Dimthing pilgrimage.
Graffin Ekaterina. Here's a regal embrace and kiss for you!
Codine. Though you are reserved, no'one's too reserved for a Hophtrig Hug! C'm'ere!
Choey! Jumphug for you!!!
Otto, a group hug for Otto and Squeezy!
John, Big hugs for John!
Zapaterietxe, I know you don't do hugs. So come on, friends, let's all blow in Zapaterietxe's direction, on 3, 1... 2... 3... {Puff}

Oh, Hophtrig so loves Hophtrig's friends, one and all!!

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Whoever you are, wherever you go, Hophtrig is your friend!

Posts: 722 | From: Under a (long white) cloud | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Are we smoking things as well as drinking the HHH?

Ios has stated what Otto was wondering about Grafinn's quick nomination. Hophtrig is offering worldly delights in the unworldly bus. Ios is offering intelligence.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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If it is necessary to vote oneself off the bus, Otto agrees he would sacrifice himself as an innocent too. But doesn't want to. But it seems noble but at the same time a bunch of barney he's rather avoid. It would probably hurt wouldn't it?

The FBC has to go with Otto because the FBC is an integral part of Otto's wardrobe. Thus, although not bleeding any more, Otto will lie down for while and consider that people think he is a very naughty boy when he knows he is not either naughty, misguided nor has he sympathy for any devilish baddie. Otto is not certain if he will be allowed to rise and play or fight with you all again given that he features on these lists of some of you less fabulously dressed. Perhaps some of you are jealous of his accoutrement, the FBC? You can play with the FBC, even play dress-up, but Otto thinks he can only be smart if he comes and goes with all aspects of his attire.

Otto thanks Hophtrig for the joy of hugs and drink and smoking in the HHH.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

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Ios has been scared by friend Hophtrig's list. It seemed so short. It brought her face to face with the fact that most of the known Innocents are dead, and the living Presumed Innocents are outnumbered by the Possibly Guilties by 4 to 5.

Friend Hophtrig, I know you didn't mean to scare Ios, but Ios is scared. Can Ios borrow your fluff-and-spring to fight off the too-numerous naughty beings if we fail to find one of the naughty beings today? In the meantime, I'm hiding under a pillow with this nice bottle of Yaswerp and continuing to read. But the story is getting strange because everyone seems Innocent and nothing makes sense.

Great, if Ios keeps talking like this, people will think it's a Hophtrig-Otto-Ios conspiracy, just based on linguistic similarity. Huh, I wonder what other evidence there might be for that? Hey, that's not a bad idea! Look at combinations I know are wrong, and see what case can be built. That way I'll know what certainly wrong conspiracies feel like, and I might be better able to recognize the right conspiracy when I find it.

Greatly cheered by this new fun activity, Ios arranges the pillow so just enough light seeps in, and continues reading, taking occasional breaks to play "what-if" with her new idea.

--------------------
Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

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"Oh bloody four-letter-word-for-underworld," mutters Ios. "It's unexpectedly complicated to clear even a known-to-be-wrong conspiracy theory."

At first she thought she had seen H-O-I to be transparently impossible given the Reppik Tew vote. Then she realized she'd forgotten about the Sympathizer. Then she realized that she was seeing ever-more complex possibilities of wheels within wheels and losing track of her chain of thought. Then she realized that the "inconceivable", once thought of in order to name it as "inconceivable", is no longer inconceivable and must be considered as a possibility.

"So what does this tell us, boys and girls?" Ios asks herself, wondering if assuming the manner of a hug-happy holovision host would help her gain some insight. "It tells us that logic is a deceitful siren call, and we must try to finish reading the archives with an open mind, and then consider the totality of the evidence, and wait patiently for insights then."

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Eliab
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# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
John and Hophtrig both gave helpful translations. Using both together helped me even more than one alone.

I think zeir interpretations are right. I think zere vas a case for not lynching on ze first day, because, if our investigators had lived, ve vould be investigating vun person each night, for ze loss of vun person murdered, und zat is a net gain in knowledge. It vas also right zat on any particular day, ze chance of nominating a guilty person is less zan ze chance of making a mistake.

On ze ozer hand, ve vin only by evicting ze guilty, und ve get few chances to do it. I do not like to vaste ze first of zese chances. Und investigators have ze unfortunate habit of being murdered, as happened here, so vile I vould be glad to see our specialists vin for us, I vould not rely on zem totally to do so.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

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Eliabulon, you're awake!

Checks Eliabulon's time zone, wonders if Ios' own crazy day has made her reverse timezone arithmetic, decides, that no, Eliabulon is awake at an insane hour of the morning.

Do you know who has been nominated by whom, and if so, can you post it? I'm trying to find out so I can figure out if I want to nominate anyone else or if I'm content to choose among our current nominees, but I'm also trying to finish rereading the d*mn transcript so I can ... you guessed it: figure out if I want to nominate anyone else.

If you could post the list of nominees it would save me some time.

I keep getting stalled in my reading of the da*n transcript because I stumble over interesting logic problems of "does this read like Guilt or Innocence? what about this or that alliance?" and lose sight of my goal which is just to read the dam* thing so I know what happened, and then only after that think about what insights I might gain from having read through the *amn thing.

Thanks.

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Eliab
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
If it is necessary to vote oneself off the bus, Otto agrees he would sacrifice himself as an innocent too.

Ze last thing ve need is anozer dead innocent. If you are vun of us, you vould be serving us better by arguing vith all ze force zat you can for your own innocence, rather zan make a vasteful offer to sacrifice yourself.

My concern about you is zat your contributions to ze discussion have been few und erratic. Ze impression I got of you, on reading ze transcripts, vase zat you have said zat Reppic vas "obviously" guilty (und how did you know?) und zat Hophtrig vas guilty too, but vith no reasons for zat. Later you changed your mind, again vith little or no stated reason, und said zat Hophtrig vas innocent. You have voiced vague suspicion of me und Ios, und zen trust of Ios, again vith very little reasoning. Und zat is about all zat you have said of any veight. If I have missed somrthing, I am sorry, but I think zat is most of vat you have said.

I vould suspect vun of two things: either you are somevun who believes zat zis contest is vun of chance und not capable of being solved by thinking, so you have not seriously tried, or you are in some vay a specialist und are trying to remain inconspicuous. Und, of course, ze only unclaimed specialists left are not on our side, but are ze killers und zeir sympathiser. I vish zat you vould answer qvestions und engage seriously vith discussion. As it is, I do not feel I know enough about ze vay you think. Und at zis stage, I do not like it at all zat ze vay you think is still largely a mystery to me.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Eliab
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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
If you could post the list of nominees it would save me some time.

I think zat zere are two:

Choey (by Zapaterietxe)

Hophtrig (by Choey)


I vould like to know vat case Choey makes against Hoptrig. Of ze two nominees, I vould vote for Choey as more likely to be guilty, but if zere is some good reason to suspect Hophtrig (or anyvun) ve need to know it.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Autenrieth Road

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Thanks, E. Is there anyone you would nominate yourself?

[ 26. March 2014, 00:33: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

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A bit of wisdom from TVAPWCBU:

quote:
Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes:
When I’ve eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how mad it might seem, must be the truth.

The problem, I've discovered so far on this bus trip, is not accepting the mad final option. It's eliminating the impossible to start with.

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

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A bit of wisdom from TVAPWCBU:

quote:
Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes:
When I’ve eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how mad it might seem, must be the truth.

The problem, I've discovered so far on this bus trip, is not accepting the mad final option. It's eliminating the impossible to start with. What do you do when every theory you try seems impossible, and every theory you're about to dismiss with "well that couldn't possibly be so" comes back knocking at your mind hissing "oh yessssss, I could!"

I've been thinking about simple actions, bluff, and counterbluff. Is there any way to tell the difference?

There are some things various people have posted that had me thinking "that makes no sense for a Guilty One to post, because it works against the interest of the Guilty Ones, and it would have been very easy to just omit saying this, or say something slightly different, and not work against the Guilty Interests." And then I start thinking "But maybe it's a deviously clever bluff, whereby the way in which it might work against the Guilty Interests is outweighed by the apparently incontrovertible evidence the statement provides for the speaker's (feigned) Innocence."

And then I'm in a big pickle.

My Real Lyfe app seems to be stuck on "Waiting For A Vendor Support Rep To Call Me Back," so while I'm twiddling my thumbs before I can make more progress on the "I Am So Glad We Decided To Upgrade Software Tonight Because If We Had Done It At Our Normal Time Early In The Morning To Finish Before The Work Day Starts So As Not To Inconvenience The Users, We Would Be Complete Toast Because It Would Be 11 A.M. Now And They Would Be Pissed (*)" challenge, anyway while I'm twiddling my thumbs I'll do some more Bus Tour "We Have Enough Logic Problems To Send You Screaming Into The Xtonic Radiation Just To Get Some Relief" Archival reading.

(*) Extremely Angry, on this side of the pond. I think I could use being Pissed in the sense from the other side of the pond. Pass me another Yaswerp.

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

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At the moment, Eliabulon, I tend to agree, I find Choey more suspicious than Hophtrig.

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Interesting how often Hophtrig comes up in that list, isn't it? Interesting that Lady Celandine, Lesley and Ios had suspicions of Hophtrig early and that early on Hophtrig suggested John, Crimson and Lesley for eviction. All of them were innocent of course. By nominating Otto early on, Hophtrig could have been trying to lead the voting away from Reppik Tew. I still believe he is either mafioso or the sympathizer.

I am as resigned at having to leave the bus as Joostein was, and will happily vote against myself to prove it, as I have promised to follow the lead of John and Zapatarietxe. But, like Joostein, I am innocent. The dark angel may as well be one of the mafia, for all the good he is doing for the cause of we innocent passengers. 100% wrong twice in a row is not what we need at this point.

Interesting that Hopfrog doesn't come up on my "but this fits the facts" list, just the "let's discard some common assumptions" list. Interesting how our opinions change over time when given further information. Interesting how you circumscribe the sample size to fit your purpose. Interesting how it's really easy to not be wrong when you've never been tested and wager little. But most of all:
Interesting how I keep posing the same questions to you, and you keep on dodging them.

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Banner Lady
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Choey flicked on her explainiator.
We have a small pool of passengers to choose from.

John (generally agreed as innocent)
Zapatarietxe (generally agreed as innocent)

Apparently that statement alone, and the use of the word "generally" makes me sound guilty, according to Ios. I thought it was a fairly accurate reflection of the state of play.

Hophtrig
Ja'ayem
Codine
the Grafinn
Otto
Ios
Choey

Of these, only four are innocent. As we are trying to find the most innocent, and as words mean so little (otherwise we'd all be sure by now), I prefer to look at behaviour. The nominating, the voting and any distraction patterns. Obviously this makes me suspicious, because I do not think like the rest of you.

Hophtrig - suggested Crimson, John and Lesley (all innocent) to be evicted, but went with the flow of TESS. He then led the accusations against Otto and voted early for him instead of the mafioso Reppik Tew. I have been considering since that time that if Hophtrig is bad, then could the Graffin could be in league with him? This is still feasible, though I do not understand why the Grafinn would make the casting vote to send Reppik Tew out the door unless Reppik Tew wanted to go and it was convenient timing to give the mafia cover. This is a long shot.

Ja'ayem suggested Ios, Lesley and the Grafinn could be in league, went with TESS and then voted for Otto. This would make him a likely innocent if Ios, the Grafinn and Otto are mafia. It makes him suspicious if Ios, the Grafinn and Otto are innocent.

Codine has offered little to go on, voting TESS, not nominating anyone, and voting late when she has to. If Hophtrig is bad she is probably innocent. She is discretion itself, as one would expect from a good servant of a dark master, and therefore hard to read.

The Grafinn made a decisive action to get rid of Reppik Tew, and led the charge against the innocent Joostein. So it's 50/50 as far as reading guilt or innocence.

Otto has understandable suspicions of Hophtrig, and has played the part of a frightened passenger well. If Otto is mafia, then Hophtrig is innocent. One of them must be guilty, in my humble opinion.

Ios found the quick nomination of Otto odd, then asked for the detective to declare themselves. Something the mafia might do. But it also suggests she and Hophtrig are not in league.

I have maintained my innocence, and my principal suspicion of Hophtrig. Being unswayed by all the spurious rhetoric flying about the bus makes me consistent, not guilty.

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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.

Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alban
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On the first day, Hophtrig was clear that he wasn't going to throw anyone off. Hophtrig had an idea about coordinating votes for the second day. Most people thought it was a bad idea, so it didn't happen. Hophtrig didn't think it was a good idea to throw anyone off on day one.
The Graffin suggested we think of three suspects for naughtiness, and Hophtrig gave three suspects. Hophtrig did not want them thrown off, Hophtrig just wanted to say which of his friends he found most suspicious that day. Hophtrig takes throwing people off far more seriously than that, his mind had changed by day 2 when they got to know him.
On the second day, Hophtrig nominated Otto. He nominated quickly because he had formed his suspicions and wanted them to be noted before his investigation of reallyfe. Hophtrig gave reasons.
Hophtrig has stood by his nomination since. Hophtrig has been, just like his friend Choey, consistent in his voting.
Hophtrig is your friend, whoever you are.

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Whoever you are, wherever you go, Hophtrig is your friend!

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Alban
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Hophtrig forgot, Hophtrig has a big hug for Choey! Choey's explaniator works well, and Hophtrig understands what Choey is thinking. If Hophtrig wasn't Hophtrig, Hophtrig would be suspicious of Hophtrig, after Choey's explaniator's explanation.

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Whoever you are, wherever you go, Hophtrig is your friend!

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Banner Lady
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As Hophtrig and I are both maintaining our innocence, then it is up to the rest of you to work out whose eviction will tell you the most.

Unless there are any other nominations forthcoming.

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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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So, looking through what our pool of 5 said during the night before Lucy was killed/the morning after:

(Abbreviations: R: Reppik; V: Joostein Käse the Viking (look, I'm desperate here!); C-Choey; K-Codine; J—Ja'ayem; H-Hophtrig; O-Otto, others are probably clear)

—Just after R's death, J does vote counting; CJHV and Lesley voted for non-R; K voted when it was too late to vote for anyone else; O when there was a bandwagon. J—admittedly, a potentially unreliable source—thought there'd be a Possessed in multiple groups. If he's Possessed, he's probably lying; if he's sympathetic, who knows; if innocent, lean toward right, but also who knows.

—Ios suspects O and C

—John's suspicions of our group at end of day: J innocent, H ditto, K unclear, C lean toward Possessed, O ditto.

—I thinks K clear—why would P's try to clear innocents?

—O claims to be throwing out bait, see who takes it.

—John: O&C P's, Daisy Sym? (impossible, Daisy cleared)

—GEE: Killer will be among (of those left) C, J, H. O being P fits facts. Of C, V, H, H is likely innocent.

—J: R looked guilty, but Z could be acting from evil motives. H was fast to nominate O, which could also be evil; H looked more innocent than Z.

—H: O is quiet. Too quiet.

—O: H pretends to be nice, but is P, and is after O.

—C: focus on actions, not words. 3 (H, J, V) did not vote for R (note: neither did C or Lesley); O claims to be innocent, H is accusing him, therefore H is P; who's going to accuse O & C, huh? H, V, and J suspicious.

—John: split between H and O accusers.

—Lucy: why suspect Otto? H is unclear.

—C: H suspected Crimson, John, & Lesley; all three are innocent (wait, John was only suspected innocent at this point!), lead against O, vouched for V. V accused GEE, but distracted from H. J suggested I, Lesley, and GEE, and thought H. had a good idea. (As V is innocent, this looks…strange)

—Z: Hi there, C! Don't you look guilty?

—C: And you're not nice. I wonder why? I didn't see why we were suspecting R, and I thought he was role-claiming by "appearing less threatening." C. has nominated nobody, voted for someone only once (out of two times). Detective should investigate V, J, or H, and not C. Z looked suspicious until recently, I'm innocent, should we not rank people in order, see if a consensus is growing?

—V: Z's slipping, no?

—John: looks bad for C; O, C, and K could use some investigation.

—C: it would be bad if two innocents started accusing people; the P would just kill one of them and blame the other. C thought John and Z were P's, and Lucy the symp.

—John: is that a threat, C? And if you suspected me and Z, or suspected Z most, why'd you do nothing about it?

—Z: And if you suspected me, why chase H? Scenarios run, assuming guilt/innocence pairings of H&O. Lots of scenarios. C&O, then C&J look most likely, then O&K, then fuckall. H only really looks bad if C&O are innocent. Oh, and P's: if you want to make Z look bad, kill C.

—C: I expect P's are coming for me, one way or another.

Morning: Lucy died

—C: Z's still here.

—H: H&GEE suspected by Lucy, but probably deduction, not investigation. H still doesn't trust O.

—John: Lucy cleared me, but may have suspected O. Nominates O.

—GEE: only GEE firmly suspected. O&H only wondered about.

—John: O suspected, also C by association and own merits. J getting quieter. O&K could work. H suspects O, but if C is innocent, H is next choice. C may be more suspicious, but O keeps coming up time and time again.

—Lucy: "Don't trust the…" The who? The FBC? The Grafinn? The Angel? The Hooded Servant? The Host? The Animal?

—C: Perhaps Lucy investigated the next on her list after John. I'm nominating H, even though you all will come after me anyway.

—I: I don't know if we should suspect O&C, but there's a good case against them. Of course, good cases only matter so much.

—K: O, H, I, and John all seem clear.

—I: C, why H?

(There are posts being omitted, and, I suspect, still more to come; we're picking up on the brewing V/GEE storm that's only going to get much, much worse once I delurk. Oy. That's why I avoided this so long…heeere we go!)

—H is confused. If confusion is a sign of not knowing what's going on, and knowing what's going on in weird situations is a sign of guilt (having certain knowledge the rest of us don't), then H & I look good so far—H is first to throw up hands, for whatever that's worth.

—O: H & GEE look shady.

—J: quick summary, basic questions regarding Lucy's death. Expected fake role claim forced by now (which was Impending…); if she knew O were guilty, she could have set up voting differently; if she'd found a P, why would she have been quiet, knowing she could have been protected?

—O: RHV could (um, have) work(ed); V's been after GEE this whole time. Are O&C guilty like they looked at the beginning of the day?

—H: Who could have "The" before their name? Includes "The Hop-Thing;" oddly, omits "The Angel."

—I: Inclining towards O for information value.

—C: O is likely notP because he's been being a pacifist; H lead charge against O, and K, John, & Les. C picked up Lucy's detective cue clearing John. Z. arguing against C meant he got protected, rather than Lucy. GEE on watch; Z, John, and Lucy innocent; O and C, of course, clear. Voters for O—J, V, and H—most suspect. I, Daisy, and K suspect for late voting. V suspicious for GEEchasing, tops suspicion list—perhaps encouraging today's Vchasing episode? Perhaps encouraging my paranoia?

—H: Yes, H shows some guilty-looking behaviors. But Otto's worse. Sorry I do it, though.

—H: H can think of four suspects with "The" in their titles, H included (sigh, forget about me again whydoncha?)

—GEE: O is suspect b/c R looked like he was shielding O. C: can look guilty when not, but Z gives good reasons—and she didn't vote for R. K: quiet, but gets results. Not suspect. H: general feeling of innocence.

—H: Lucy seemed suspicious of GEE, H, and O. H isn't too suspicious of the first two, and Lu didn't seem that suspicious of O. H is confused.

—V: big accusation of GEE.

—O: Not too much to say; what do you want to know? H&GEE looked suspicious last round; too quick to conclusions, to quick to deflect (again, you people forgetting about me!); why did H target innocent O?

—H: so what are you/FBC thinking, O? Why suspect me?

—O: you're too quick to condemn me (O)

—H: Is this really just about revenge?

—H: Maybe analyzing Lucy's death scene isn't getting us anywhere, since she can't actually tell us anything.

—K: John & I innocent; Z and H likely so (H was never suspected); GEE, despite accusations mounting, not actively distrusted; C is obsessed with H only out of stubbornness; O stirs without solving, accusing without reasons; V is accusing for odd reasons, and J can't be read.

—C: 5 have suspected V. If H is symp, let's all go for V. I'll do whatever John does.

—V: I'm alive because I suspected GEE; role claim

—Z: Now isn't this interesting? Hat materializes. Not planning on eating it any time soon, though the mustard pot podium remains.

From here on out, I'm going to be leaving out lots of stuff. As you probably can't forget, it seriously Hits the Fan about here

—J: V role claims, Z advises laying low; outcome analysis based on whether V is P/doc.

—John: counters V's role claim

—O: O wanted R off, because arguments showed he was guilty (or that we were all on to him?). H did it for unknown reasons. H had no reason to go after O, except that H is bad. (Huh?)

—K: False doctor claim seems suspicious, no matter what, and confusing.

—K: If the most suspicious thing about me is my suspicion of those caught telling falsehoods…

—K: A false claim doesn't make any sense! I can't trust V.

—K: Distrust V most out of everybody, he's been caught in a lie. Don't trust GEE or O, either, just V least. Let's talk this one through.

—V: K made wild accusations; she's symp.

—V: with Z, K, C, and I "cleared," equal numbers P/I. J/H/O/D cannot all be P.

—O: Does anyone care what I do?

—John: I do; let's stand against GEE and Z!

—H: let's work together, like I've wanted to do all along. H distrusts V, will join with others.

—J: if/then scenarios; none of them look good.

—John: Z and O look like accomplices to GEE and R, probably Z.

—J: whoops, messed up my analysis. Thought your (John's) ambivalence was assuming GEE's guilt.

—O: GEE and H are colluding?

—O: I'll follow I today.

—C: Both GEE and V distracted from H. Should look at one of three who voted for Otto. V voted for Otto. V is alarming, but so is GEE. C will go with majority.

—O: Is Hophtrig good?

—I: I have no idea about O or H, but you two look less P'd than at least one of GEE or V.

—Z: Dramatic Entrance.

Okay, I give up. It all went even more to Hell here, and I can't take any more. I had some analysis that I noticed as I was writing, but now I've re-confused myself; if someone wants to pick things up here and sort through the mess that follows (Ios, you've been reading this, no?) to see what was said by or about K, C, J, O, and H, I'd appreciate it.

Bllaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh…

The angel disappears into thin air even more suddenly than usual. Sometimes, holding condensed form is Just Too Much.

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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Blargh. Can't stay rarified. Not while I have thoughts. I always have thoughts. I don't like these.

—We all agreed that Lesley and Joostein looked Possessed. It was pretty common sentiment, no? As in, I wasn't the only one who thought it, not by any means. In fact, looking over the last transcript, I noticed how Choey often pointed out how Joostein looked suspicious, in addition to Hophtrig. But that was just yesterday, and, again, probably trying to confirm my own suspicions. Now, many of us agree that Choey looks suspicious. Many of us agreed that Joostein and Lesley did as well. So who are the "many of us" who weren't exactly discouraging the rest of us from wild goose chases, but weren't eager to go running after Reppik?

—There's an advantage for the Possessed in saying "I'll vote how X does" or "I'll vote how the majority does," especially if X or the majority isn't going the right way. It's a great way to hide a vote, and, above all else, avoid taking responsibility for one's own decisions. While I've done my share of investigating, lobbying, and argument, I've never claimed that any of that was anyone else's fault but mine; anything I've said or done can be laid squarely under my etherial feet. One who is Possessed, however, would want someone else to take the blame for their very calculated "mistakes." So who's avoiding responsibility, or placing themselves in positions where they don't have to face a moment of truth?

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Alban
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# 9047

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Hophtrig has tried the post-adbreak summariser Hophtrig is compelled to carry, as a holovision presenter. Hophtrig fed it transcripts. Around this point it began emitting smoke and Hophtrig stopped it. Here you go, Zapaterietxe, my friend (and anyone else interested):
Joo: If Z innocent prove it in death. Z, K and Joo must go
Z: Joo is nuts, reminds me of Rep
K: Joo is p, probably symp. But, J, don't stop thinking and analysing, we can trust you.
I: Don't trust me, I know nothing.
Z: Joo reminds me of Rep. Joo is a liar. Joo wants to eliminate Z & K - wrongly. Joo neautralised the doctor. J didn't trust Joo, Joo is trying to deflect attention.
J: This is nuts. Either Joo or Z goes off!
J: Z is right. Z was right about me, I got it wrong. Joo screwed me over, I want him gone!
Z: Joo is poison flavoured with honey. I was wrong about Lesley. Choey prob looks guilty, but not as guilty as Joo. Joo reminds me of K and I don't trust them. Joo wants me gone. We were all sucked in by Joo.
C: J?!! H?!! Alcohol!
I: Why do you trust me now, Z? I'm in line with Z. Core belief - don't lie, Joo lied, Joo goes. No commitment to do anything the next day goes with this.
Joo: I'm innocent. If I'm innocent, Z & K are guilty. I'm going next day, then kill Z K.
Z: Joo isn't answering, just waving hands. Goodbye translator!
H: Why does Choey suspect me with J? H sees some similarities, so perhaps it isn't too long a bow to draw. H is confused.
I: Everyone sounds convincing.
H: Otto is too quiet. But Joo is a liar, H trusts the liar less.
Z: I's confusion and thought processes made me believe her innocent.
I: Z,K,Joo? Which first. Thinking.
Joo: It doesn't matter who goes first, so long as K goes. Lynch me first, I'm a liar.
Z: Lynch the liar. Joo reminds me of K, if guilty, the probably working with K. And I, you're a good thinker.
Joo: Among Z, C, O, H, C, D & J lie three p. You can find them.
Z: Joo poisoned the well. Joo should understand why he's thought guilty. Joo seems to be putting words in my mouth. Joo spoke of 'us', suggesting posession. Joo must die!
Z: Joo is p. If I'm p, why'd I lynch Rep? Why'm I so obviously chummy with K?
Joo: Methinks Z doth protest too much.
Joo: If I'm guilty, ignore me, when proven innocent, reread me.
Z: Joo is a disciple of K.
Z: K can't use her usual tactics, I'm onto her, so Joo is doing it instead.
Jay: Fencepost eror detected.
H: H will lynch liar.
Joo: I'm guilty, lynch me lynch me lynch me I'll talk a bit before you do.
J: I don't trust Jooo or K, and will promise Joo nothing. Joo screwed me over, but I don't trust K either.
Joo: Vote late, let me talk.
J: I'm no leade. I is innocent, so am I(J).Z,C & H are probably innocent. D & C are unknown. Joo, K and O are untrusted.
Joo: Think on what I say
K: John's doctor claim was bad for Joo. Had it been someone else, Joo wouldn't have confessed to lying.
I: Joo is batshit crazy.
K: Joo is the sympathiser.
Z: Joo won't answer awkward questions. Joo wants control. Joo's scenario is nuts.
H: Liar out.
Jay: Perplexed.
I: Joo goes today, I'll figure things out tomorrow.
K: Joo is guilty.
Everyone votes for Joo.
Cod: I suspect K, O and maybe Z.
Joo: Cod is sympathiser.
C: Follow J. Look at who's distracting and bullshitting. H & Z (Possibly O & I too). Don't claim false roles if innocent.
Joo: I suspected K early. Z & Cod defended her. Logic was not involved in this. Z & E's posts were coordinated. I'm pleased to have died exposing Cod, Z & E. The p are clever, like Z & K. K hasn't defended herself properly. Z & Cod have defended K. Z doth protest too much. Lynch Z & E.
Z: Joo spread confusion. K & I(Z) don't post together for good reason.
Z: If Joo innocent, then the Joo/K colaboration wasn't happening, so K is less suspicious.
Daf: Joo was innocent
All: WTF?
I: Doctor, heal yourself tonight.
J: Suggest
Z: Suggestions: C & O.
Jay: Suggestions: K, C & O
J: I suspect K, still.
z: Some people knew what was going on today, and were therefore unfazed.
O: Suggestions: K, H & I. Maybe.
I: Why are K, H & I related?
J: We need more infe.
Z: C is trying to rope innocents together as p. D & O are confused. K isn't pursuing an innocent, looks less suspicious.
Z: If they'd killed Choey, it'd've looked bad for me.
C: Suspects: C, O & Jay

[ 26. March 2014, 09:09: Message edited by: Alban ]

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Whoever you are, wherever you go, Hophtrig is your friend!

Posts: 722 | From: Under a (long white) cloud | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505

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Yes, as I have explained before, I thought it good to look hard at the three who voted for Otto rather than the unreadable mafioso Reppik Tew. Those three were Hophtrig, Joostein and Ja'ayem.

Voting Hophtrig off the bus would be enlightening for a number of reasons. If Hophtrig is guilty, then Otto should be innocent. If Otto is innocent then Ja'ayem should also be guilty. If Hophtrig is innocent then Ios and Codine should be the guilty ones.

Voting me off will tell you that I am innocent, as I have said. I do not know what else you could learn from my death, but this is now up to you. Do what you think is the most beneficial for everyone.

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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.

Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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<Voice of a fragmented algorithm>

Is the wordy angel forcing his fellow Circus hosts to read all this?

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
This is still feasible, though I do not understand why the Grafinn would make the casting vote to send Reppik Tew out the door unless Reppik Tew wanted to go and it was convenient timing to give the mafia cover. This is a long shot.

Although zat vould be strongly in my favour, it is not qvite accurate.

My vote made it impossible to evict Otto (und left ze only options as Reppik or no vun), but it vas not ze casting vote against Reppik. Zat vote vas Daisy’s. It vas a significant vote, because Reppik had made his (vague und, we now know, untrue) claim to be a specialist after my vote und before hers.

So I did not qvite seal Reppik's fate, though ven I cast my vote, zat is indeed vat I thought I vas doing, since I did not think zat all ze remaining voters vould choose 'no vun'.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

Shipmate
# 10509

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quote:
Originally posted by Cho Bacca Loriette:
Choey flicked on her explainiator.
We have a small pool of passengers to choose from.

John (generally agreed as innocent)
Zapatarietxe (generally agreed as innocent)

Apparently that statement alone, and the use of the word "generally" makes me sound guilty, according to Ios. I thought it was a fairly accurate reflection of the state of play.

Choey, could you point me to the post of mine that causes you to conclude that "Apparently that statement alone, and the use of the word 'generally' makes me sound guilty, according to Ios." We may be having a massive failure to communicate, and if we can clear it up it might rehabilitate my view of you. I have a hunch about which post it is, but I don't want to assume anything.

[ 26. March 2014, 10:29: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]

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Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505

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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:


quote:
Originally posted by Cho Bacca Loriettr:
[...]f we are generally agreed on the innocence of John and Zippitpleeze[...]

If you are innocent, you are doing a very poor job of saying things in a way that would transparently convince me of your innocence.

I will be completely re examining everything you have said from both points of view: (1) you are Guilty or (2) you are Innocent but think completely differently from me.

I have no idea why anyone should expect a giant kangaroo to think like everyone else. It seems a little unrealistic, to me. But then, I am certainly different. I suppose you could chuck me out for that, if you like.

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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.

Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barefoot Friar

Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100

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I nominate Ja'ayem. Unfortunately I have no cleverly convincing argument at the moment because I'm on the wrong device. The one that has my notes is dead at the moment. I will try again later.

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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu

Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Autenrieth Road

Shipmate
# 10509

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quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
quote:
Originally posted by Cho Bacca Loriettr:
[...]f we are generally agreed on the innocence of John and Zippitpleeze[...]

If you are innocent, you are doing a very poor job of saying things in a way that would transparently convince me of your innocence.

I will be completely re examining everything you have said from both points of view: (1) you are Guilty or (2) you are Innocent but think completely differently from me.

I have no idea why anyone should expect a giant kangaroo to think like everyone else. It seems a little unrealistic, to me. But then, I am certainly different. I suppose you could chuck me out for that, if you like.
Thank you, Choey. That is the post that I thought you would point out.

I want to try to clarify what I was explaining, and see if we can understand each other at all. I won't try that clarification in this post, because I need to think a bit to try to figure out what might be going on and how I'm reacting to it. But I'll say a bit about the background to why I'm thinking about this. Here is the background:

I am in the middle of a massive blowup with someone in Real Life where it turns out that we think COMPLETELY differently. Not just, "oh, yes, I wouldn't have thought of it that way, but I guess I can sort of see your point. I don't really agree, but I can see your point." But COMPLETELY different. We don't even speak the same language. It's like as if the conversations go like this:

Them: Would you like to have lunch?

Me: Why yes, the bishop's mitre does look wonderful. Glad you pointed that out.

Them: No, I didn't say that the moon is made of green cheese. I said would you like a meal?

Me: I don't understand a word you're saying. First you say "would you like to have lunch" and then you say "robins fly south in the winter" and I'm completely confused.


I mean, I'm talking Alice Through The Looking Glass levels of confusion in language.

And several things in your most recent posts, and my inner gut reactions to them, remind me of the way I react to her.

So thank you for answering my question about "which post." I need to do some reflecting.

My reflections do include that Zapterietxe may well be on a mistaken "I am totally convinced of your guilt" campaign, as he was mistaken with Lovely Lesley and Joostein. He was correct with Reppik Tew, but on the face of it he's running 2/3 mistakes, which undermines what would be my normal confidence in the apparent authority and thoroughness of his case against you.

Plus the comparison to my Real Life situation undermines what would be my own normal confidence that no-one Innocent could post the way it seems to me that you post.

I'm going to reflect on this, and post again on this topic when I can say something that might be helpful.

--------------------
Truth

Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
<Voice of a fragmented algorithm>

Is the wordy angel forcing his fellow Circus hosts to read all this?

{OoC}No idea, suspect not.

…I mean, I suspect they're not, not that I suspect that I'm not making them. I think I'd know if I had those two tied up in my basement next to the tiny bikes, giant shoe collection, and giraffe unicycle, forbidding them to read anything I wrote. S and iF are free to ignore me at their leisure, just like everybody else already does.{/OoC}

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged



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