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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Doctor Who: Fall 2013
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I could quote an absolute barrow-load of lines from it, but I'll just pick this one:
quote:
The result is an episode that features all the thematic density and twisty storytelling that defines Moffat’s era, placed in service to the kind of warmth and humanity that more defined the work of his predecessor.
I do not understand this. It's true that Davies' work has its heart on its sleeve, but humans do not have their hearts on their sleeves. The thing on the sleeve that looks like a heart is a sewn-on patch.
Which really sums up how I feel about the alleged emotional content of Davies' work. Whereas Moffat's work, underneath the clothes and the skin and the ribcage, has a real human heart beating.
(Warmth? Davies? We're talking about the guy who wrote Midnight and Torchwood: Children of Men.)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Hmmm, what you see as a real human heart beating, I perceive as saccharine sentiment - fake and not convincing. However, that must mean you're enjoying the present stuff more than I am, so you are probably ahead in the game!
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Wood - new season 3 or 4? I presume you mean seasons 29 (with the incomparable Martha Jones - a real high spot) and 30 (which was very spotty).
I meant series 3 and 4 (as opposed to seasons 3 and 4).
Martha Jones was the best idea for a companion, but man she couldn't act for toffee.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Really liked this episode; best of the new season thus far. Funny, scary, moving, well-acted, etc
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
The review of Listen on androzani.com (which has good, thoughtful reviews) is interesting because of how critical of the sexual politics of it.
I'm not sure though that you can berate Listen for sexism and yet somehow stand it up against Blink on those terms. Blink's sexism is one of the things I hate about that story.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by orfeo:
[qb]
(Warmth? Davies? We're talking about the guy who wrote Midnight and Torchwood: Children of Men.)
Both of which are among the best things he ever wrote.
I don't think it's about warmth so much as about people. I've often said that Davies does characters and Moffat does plots, although that's not quite right either. I do think that none of the truest new series stories in terms in human content have been written by either Moffat or Davies.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
The review of Listen on androzani.com (which has good, thoughtful reviews) is interesting because of how critical of the sexual politics of it.
I'm not sure though that you can berate Listen for sexism and yet somehow stand it up against Blink on those terms. Blink's sexism is one of the things I hate about that story.
What the heck is sexist about Blink?
I didn't even know until recently that people kept berating Moffat for sexism. It strikes me as over the top. Most characters on TV have a gender, out of 2 to choose from. If people are going to see everything that a character does as having gender-based significance, there's a 50% probability at any given moment that a character is going to be doing something that people are going to yell "gender stereotype" at.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
The review of Listen on androzani.com (which has good, thoughtful reviews) is interesting because of how critical of the sexual politics of it.
I'm not sure though that you can berate Listen for sexism and yet somehow stand it up against Blink on those terms. Blink's sexism is one of the things I hate about that story.
What the heck is sexist about Blink?
The entire character of Sally Sparrow is a nerd fantasy. Seriously, she ends up with that guy? Really?
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
The review of Listen on androzani.com (which has good, thoughtful reviews) is interesting because of how critical of the sexual politics of it.
I'm not sure though that you can berate Listen for sexism and yet somehow stand it up against Blink on those terms. Blink's sexism is one of the things I hate about that story.
What the heck is sexist about Blink?
The entire character of Sally Sparrow is a nerd fantasy. Seriously, she ends up with that guy? Really?
Whereas as having a pretty girl fall for a tall athletic type wouldn't be playing into stereotypes at all. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
To label that as 'sexism' is ridiculous. Frankly, to look at Carey Mulligan in that story and think 'pretty girl and therefore sex object' is ridiculous. Sexism is when a girl is portrayed as being merely an appendage for a male character who drives the action, not when a fully fledged female character dominates the narrative and one of the things she does is like a male - something that is apparently quite common in real life.
To me that's the epitome of looking for problems.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one, lest this thread becomes, through no fault of anyone, a ding-dong yes-it-is-no-it-isn't argument, and no one wants that.
[ 15. September 2014, 10:22: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
That blog's criticism of Clara showing mothering tendencies is silly as well. It's a character that works with children - teacher, governess, nanny. It's a character trait, not a gender trait. It's not an automatic trait of every female character. In the Eleventh/Amy era it was the Doctor - the male character - who tended to show he was good with children.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
The entire character of Sally Sparrow is a nerd fantasy. Seriously, she ends up with that guy? Really?
It's not just that. It's Sparrow and Nightingale.
Cut the epilogue other than Sally meeting the Doctor and leave Sally's fate undetermined and it is very good.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
That blog's criticism of Clara showing mothering tendencies is silly as well. It's a character that works with children - teacher, governess, nanny. It's a character trait, not a gender trait. It's not an automatic trait of every female character. In the Eleventh/Amy era it was the Doctor - the male character - who tended to show he was good with children.
I'll see that and throw Rory, the nurse and regular damsel, into the mix - and I'm fairly sure which of those two was the good one with kids. Take away the miniskirts and Rory and Amy are almost inversions of their gender stereotypes.
Seriously, there's a lot to criticise Moffatt for with respect to sexism. But making Clara a teacher is not one of them. That Clara is the only female character who is both on-screen and speaking is a minor one - or would be if he didn't do it so often.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
The entire character of Sally Sparrow is a nerd fantasy. Seriously, she ends up with that guy? Really?
It's not just that. It's Sparrow and Nightingale.
Cut the epilogue other than Sally meeting the Doctor and leave Sally's fate undetermined and it is very good.
And the bit at the start with Sally's mate being stalked into marriage by that guy on the hill.
quote:
Seriously, there's a lot to criticise Moffatt for with respect to sexism. But making Clara a teacher is not one of them. That Clara is the only female character who is both on-screen and speaking is a minor one - or would be if he didn't do it so often.
I'll grant that Clara being a teacher isn't a sexist thing. Clara certainly isn't so bad as last year, too, when her entire existence as a character was to be an appendage to the Doctor's existence. At least she has a (notionally) separate existence now.
Having said that, it did annoy me so in Deep Breath when people kept calling her a control freak and narcissist, and not actually showing her present those characteristics in any way that wouldn't be normal for a male character.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Well, that was rubbish. No monster. What's a Doctor Who story without a monster? I mean, Caves of Androzani - rubbish plot if you call it a plot, saved by the monster. Vincent and the Doctor, even the people who hate it have to admit the monster is brilliant. Kinda, lots of drawn out dull stuff, but at least there's a giant snake at the end.
Yes, I suppose from a certain point of view it was short on plot, which is a bad thing in the same way that Jane Austen is short on action sequences.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Erik
Shipmate
# 11406
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
It seems to me [SPOILERS AHEAD] that the story told us there is nothing under the bed; this is merely a childhood fear of the Doctor's, brought on by Clara. In which case what was it in Rupert Pink's bed? A giant erection? And what was outside the air lock, or wrote on the blackboard (I like the blackboard itself tho) etc? No, looked clever but doesn't add up.
I'm not so sure about this. It told us there was nothing under the Doctor's bed (or rather that it was Clara) but I can't help wondering if the other stuff (blackboard, Rupert's bed, air lock, etc) were something else. Each of those was given a potential non-creepy explanation but each one was a bit weak. Like the kind of explanation you would tell yourself to comfort yourself while not quite believing it. I think it was left deliberately ambiguous so we were left not knowing.
I can't quite decide what I think about the episode as a whole. I really enjoyed it right up until finding Clara under the Doctor's bed. As far as I can remember the Doctor stops looking at this point without actually finding the answer himself. After all, Clara made a point of him not knowing it was her. Just stopping without knowing the answer seems very un-Doctor-like.
I can't help wondering if the 'thing under the bed' is going to reappear later in the session.
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One day I will think of something worth saying here.
Posts: 96 | From: Leeds, UK | Registered: May 2006
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erik:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robert Armin:
[qb]
I can't help wondering if the 'thing under the bed' is going to reappear later in the session.
I hope not. It'd remove all its force.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
I've too little info about 4,5, and 6 to make any calls. Suggestions as to what to watch and what to avoid?
Great Fifth Doctor stories (imho) are Enlightenment, Kinda and The Caves of Androzani. A lot of people like Frontios and Earthshock, although I think they're both a bit rubbish.
On the other hand, no one likes Time Flight, or Warriors of the Deep. Warriors of the Deep has a monster that has inside it the two guys who played Dobbin the pantomime horse in Rentaghost. It shows.
The best of the Sixth Doctor stories are Vengeance on Varos, Resurrection of the Daleks, and the first two story sections of Trial of a Time Lord. Do not watch Attack of the Cybermen or Time Lash if you are feeling at all not masochistic.
So. Fourth Doctor. Everyone knows about Genesis of the Daleks. That's great stuff. His second and third seasons (everything from Terror of the Zygons to Talons of Weng-Chiang) have no duff stories. None. City of Death and The Pirate Planet, both by Douglas Adams, are highly regarded by fans, although I do not tend to rate the former as highly as many people do (but then I don't like Douglas Adams).
On the other hand, bad fourth Doctor stories include Revenge of the Cybermen, Meglos, The Horns of Nimon, and The Nightmare of Eden.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Just watch 'em all and make your own mind up. That's what I'm doing. Season 14 now. No rush, it's probably several years ago that I started on Season 1.
And I can upload all the Loose Cannon reconstructions of missing episodes for you!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Just watch 'em all and make your own mind up. That's what I'm doing. Season 14 now. No rush, it's probably several years ago that I started on Season 1.
And I can upload all the Loose Cannon reconstructions of missing episodes for you!
I dunno. I have a close mate who is a much more informed Whovian than me, and we have been going through the highlights of classic Who, along with the ones I remember watching as a kid (some of which are not, it turns out, highlights). It's sort of fun this way.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by Erik:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robert Armin:
[qb]
I can't help wondering if the 'thing under the bed' is going to reappear later in the session.
I hope not. It'd remove all its force.
Depends how it's used; could be part of the season story arc.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Great Fifth Doctor stories (imho) are Enlightenment, Kinda and The Caves of Androzani. A lot of people like Frontios and Earthshock, although I think they're both a bit rubbish.
I quite like Frontios, although I remember it from my childhood which may explain it. Earthshock is rubbish.
I agree with Wood's three recommendations, although there are people who disagree with us on Kinda and Enlightenment. More people like Mawdryn Undead than people seem to realise. Snakedance is the sequel to Kinda, and some people think it's even better.
quote:
The best of the Sixth Doctor stories are Vengeance on Varos, Resurrection of the Daleks, and the first two story sections of Trial of a Time Lord. Do not watch Attack of the Cybermen or Time Lash if you are feeling at all not masochistic.
'The best of the Sixth Doctor stories' is a bit like 'the best of Wordsworth's late poems' or 'the best of 90s U2 after Achtung Baby' or...
quote:
So. Fourth Doctor. Everyone knows about Genesis of the Daleks. That's great stuff. His second and third seasons (everything from Terror of the Zygons to Talons of Weng-Chiang) have no duff stories. None. City of Death and The Pirate Planet, both by Douglas Adams, are highly regarded by fans, although I do not tend to rate the former as highly as many people do (but then I don't like Douglas Adams).
From Tom Baker's first three seasons, Ark in Space, Genesis of the Daleks, Terror of the Zygons, Brain of Morbius, The Deadly Assassin, and Robots of Death, are nearly universally admired. (Pyramids of Mars, Seeds of Doom, and Talons of Weng-Chiang are widely admired as well. Talons of Weng-Chiang is one of the classics of Doctor Who; unfortunately, it is exactly as racist as the title makes it sound.)
Horror of Fang Rock completes the run.
Sun Makers is rather good. So is The Ribos Operation. (The Ribos Operation, The Pirate Planet (Douglas Adams), The Stones of Blood, The Androids of Tara, The Power of Kroll, and The Armageddon Factor form a sequence called the Key to Time. The first four is possibly the most consistently good run of four stories in Doctor Who. The last two... have some good bits somewhere.)
City of Death is what Douglas Adams did just after he did the first radio series of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
Warriors Gate is one of my top ten Doctor Who stories ever.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Re. Talons of Weng-Chiang. I remember Stephen Moffat talking about it on the BBC website last year and saying, "everyone always points out the rubbish giant rat..." and thinking, no, mate. Anyone with a brain points out the yellowface makeup.
It has a lot to commend it, but - and my Whovian mate never seems to understand this - the yellowface is something I can't quite get past.
I should have mentioned this before, so props for bringing it up.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
The Androids of Tara is actually somewhere in my top ten, but I'm so used to Who fans going, HAVE YOU GONE QUITE WRONG?! that I always hesitate to mention it.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I like it; but then I'm a fan of that whole late Habsburg east central European cultural reference.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I like it; but then I'm a fan of that whole late Habsburg east central European cultural reference.
Also, it's hilarious fun. Count Grendel is a great baddie. He's not a world conquering fascist or a cold psycho. He's just a bit of a jerk.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
A friend of mine who is very anti-Capaldi, says he has problems understanding what he is saying. Moreover, said friend reckons the BBC have been deluged by complaints from Americans who can't understand Capaldi at all without turning subtitles on. Would any of our American cousins care to substantiate or negate this perception?
And Wood, when you say Freema Agyeman can't act you are getting close to pistols at dawn. Sir, you besmirch the lady! This link has a section on the awards she has received and been nominated for, so it's not just my POV. For me, she is far and away the best nu-companion so far, and I wish she'd done more than one season. However, better to have one great run, than go on and on till everyone is desperate for you to go.
[ 15. September 2014, 16:45: Message edited by: Robert Armin ]
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
A friend of mine who is very anti-Capaldi, says he has problems understanding what he is saying.
Where regional accents are concerned I'm usually one of the first to have difficulty understanding them. I find Glaswegian and Newcastle the hardest to understand, especially when spoken rapidly. I was therefore pleasantly surprised to find that Capaldi sounded much more English than I'd expected, with only a hint of Scottish.
If your friend dislikes him, though, he's probably listening out for not-listening, if that makes any sense.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I once heard a programme on accents in which an elderly lady with a pronounced Received accent herself complained that a certain BBC announcer with a mild, educated Edinburgh accent was incomprehensible. I simply could not understand how she could not hear what was said. Both seemed completely understandable to me.
I suspect some people are prepared not to understand, so don't. Whether this is deliberate or a product of upbringing I cannot tell.
Which being said, I simply could not make sense of what our Glaswegian school caretaker said when he was in a mood not to be comprehensible.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Personally, I do have a bit of a problem with Capaldi's accent at times. I can understand a good 90% of what he says, but occasional words get missed. I am expecting this to improve as I get more used to his accent. I figure the fault is more with me than him.
And, to be fair, I often missed chunks of what Matt Smith said as well...not because of accent but because he spoke so quickly!
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
From Tom Baker's first three seasons, Ark in Space, Genesis of the Daleks, Terror of the Zygons, Brain of Morbius, The Deadly Assassin, and Robots of Death, are nearly universally admired. (Pyramids of Mars, Seeds of Doom, and Talons of Weng-Chiang are widely admired as well. Talons of Weng-Chiang is one of the classics of Doctor Who; unfortunately, it is exactly as racist as the title makes it sound.)
Horror of Fang Rock completes the run.
Sun Makers is rather good. So is The Ribos Operation. (The Ribos Operation, The Pirate Planet (Douglas Adams), The Stones of Blood, The Androids of Tara, The Power of Kroll, and The Armageddon Factor form a sequence called the Key to Time. The first four is possibly the most consistently good run of four stories in Doctor Who. The last two... have some good bits somewhere.)
City of Death is what Douglas Adams did just after he did the first radio series of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
Warriors Gate is one of my top ten Doctor Who stories ever.
The fourth Doctor's reign, like Gaul, can be divided into three parts.
The first part, produced by Philip Hinchcliffe was magnificent with three dud stories (Robot, Revenge of the Cybermen and Android Invasion) and a couple of patchy ones (Weng-Chiang for the reasons stated and Brain of Morbius). After which Hinchcliffe left and he was replaced by Graham Williams who faced two adversaries more formidable than the Master and the Black Guardian of Time, to whit Mrs Mary Whitehouse and Tom Baker's ego. Consequently there are more duds.
Horror of Fang Rock and Image of the Fendahl are hangovers from the Hinchcliffe era, Sun Makers is, as stated, excellent. Ribos Operation, Stones of Blood and Androids of Tara are all pretty good, as is City of Death. It's probably a minority view but I like Destiny of the Daleks and Horns of Nimon. On the other hand you have the Prawn of Peril, Land of the Dodgy CSO, Attack of the Unimpressive Aliens (oh, and the Sontarans) knocked up by Williams in a hurry when the script arrived with a production requirement for Wembley Stadium filled with actors in Cat Prosthetics, Attack of the Giant Squid, The Trivial Nuclear War (with William Squire, the greatest of all the Hunters as a panto villain), Catweazle and the Balloon from Space and A Very Special Drugs Episode. Oh, and Shada which was nixed by the unions. There's also Pirate Planet, which is basically all right but benefits from the undoubted affection in which the late Mr Douglas Adams is held and from the absence of a Target novelisation. (An awful lot of Doctor Who stories suffer on repeat viewing from not being as good as the version in one's head from childhood provided by Mr Terence Dicks.)
Finally, John Nathan-Turner took over and produced Leisure Hive, State of Decay (the final leftover from the Hinchcliffe era), Warriors Gate, Keeper of Traken and Logopolis all of which are excellent; Full Circle, which is basically all right and Meglos which is bloody awful even if it does have Jacqueline Hill in it. (You wouldn't guess from that little lot that the same bloke would go on to produce The Twin Dilemma, Timelash, Time and the Rani and Delta and the Bannermen.)
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
This family of Canadian viewers always watches Doctor Who (and most other BBC shows) with the subtitles on when possible, just so we don't miss a good line because we were struggling to catch the accent. So it's not just Capaldi.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
I live in Australia, and have a satellite TV package. I can understand Who fine. But what I have noticed is that when USA-based channels show programs from other countries, they often put their own sub- titles in. Not just really foreign ones either, but UK and Oz.
I have always figured it just says something not very complimentary about Americans' ability to hear other accents at all.
But then last night, as I flicked through, it was being done on some American show about families in lived in swamp areas of tne USA.
So, who knows!
But oh, I am loving Who!
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
We do have trouble with a lot of them, hearing-wise, I mean. I think that they go in auditory directions we're not used to. For example, I do just fine with Mexican, Southern US, Asian, and Australian accents, but I have a darned hard time with UK accents (most of them). I can only describe it by saying that the pitch sounds more vertical to me, where the first few I listed (bar the Asians) sound horizontal. Which is probably as clear as mud.
Don't mind me, I have synesthesia and I use the visuals to classify sounds. But I haven't worked out what degree of verticality means in actual sound terms. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Proper technical terms, I mean.
[ 16. September 2014, 00:09: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Long ago I knew someone in Boston who had a job creating subtitles for the British drama and mystery shows that Public Broadcasting was showing. It was funded specifically so deaf viewers could watch the show. This was sufficiently long ago that they may have had special decoder boxes to put the subtitles on the TV rather than the feature that is now built in on most televisions.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I have no problem understanding Capaldi. (I did, however, turn on the subtitles for the first few episodes of "The Wire," till I got used to the accent.)
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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We watched the latest episode last night, as my husband was away at the weekend and we like to watch it as a family. I enjoyed it, it was thoughtful. I especially found the obsession with Clara's timeline interesting, not just that they could visit within it but that the Doctor almost said her life expectancy; Strax did the same a few weeks ago and I wonder if there is any relevance in this? It struck me immediately the similarity.
The toy soldier also puzzled me. Am I right that she also gave one to the young Doctor? Or am I misinterpreting what happened? Yet, unlike Dan, the Doctor professes not to like soldiers. It seems to have had the opposite effect on him.
My boys went to bed afterwards, the 10 year old, who sleeps below his older brother, said on the way up 'I'm the monster under your bed' ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 16. September 2014, 07:08: Message edited by: Heavenly Anarchist ]
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Wood: quote:
Re. Talons of Weng-Chiang. I remember Stephen Moffat talking about it on the BBC website last year and saying, "everyone always points out the rubbish giant rat..." and thinking, no, mate. Anyone with a brain points out the yellowface makeup.
By an odd coincidence, we were watching this the other night and when the Doctor asked Li H'sen Chang if he was Chinese, we started giggling...
On Blink: quote:
...the bit at the start with Sally's mate being stalked into marriage by that guy on the hill.
I think 'stalked into marriage' is a bit OTT. First of all, she was shunted back to the 1930s. Things were different then; what we would now consider sexism was the way most people behaved back then. Are you suggesting 1930s Man should have behaved like 21st Century Man in fancy dress to avoid offending us? All historical drama does this to a certain extent, but you can only go so far with it before destroying the illusion that you are recreating the past.
Secondly, you're assuming she had no choice in whether or not to marry the guy. This was 1930s Britain, not the Dark Ages (and even in the Dark Ages she wouldn't have been forced to marry him). Lazy scriptwriting, perhaps, to have her sending Sally a letter to say that she married the first guy she met and lived Happily Ever After. But I don't see any suggestion that she was coerced into marriage.
I agree with you about the ending, though. The ending is weak. Sally ends up running the DVD shop with her brother's best friend? Really? That's the summit of her ambitions? She could have done so much better... and I'm not talking about the boyfriend's looks here.
That's why I liked Martha (even though she couldn't act); medical student with some gumption. Leaving school with a handful of GCSEs and hanging about practising gymnastics until the Doctor turns up to whisk you away on an adventure is not a good life plan (can you tell I didn't like Rose?)
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
This talk of Capaldi's accent is interesting to me as a Brit; it's not just that I have no difficulty understanding him, but I hardly notice he's got one; it's a very mild Scots; almost RP compared to what you'd hear on the streets of Glasgow.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
It's what I'd call (probably wrongly) 'Edinburgh' or 'elite Scots'.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
That's the summit of her ambitions?
I am mystified by the general assumption that, because Sally Sparrow is depicted at a DVD shop at the end of the story, she continued to run it until the age of 65.
Or more broadly, the general assumption that the end of a character's story as depicted as the end of the character. If you're going to treat characters as "real people" in this way and draw all sorts of real world implications about them, that necessarily involves accepting that these characters continue to have a life beyond the end of when you were watching them. Treating the end of their story as the end of change in their entire lives is just wrong. You can only treat a character's own narrative timeline as having ended if you know they've died.
[ 16. September 2014, 10:35: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
This talk of Capaldi's accent is interesting to me as a Brit; it's not just that I have no difficulty understanding him, but I hardly notice he's got one; it's a very mild Scots; almost RP compared to what you'd hear on the streets of Glasgow.
Likewise. Capaldi's other roles show that he can do the full range from really quite effete Englishman to full-on see-you-Jimmah Scot. He tends to gravitate towards this particular accent, though, so I suspect it's his natural one.
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
In fact, if you're going to treat Sally Sparrow in this way, it's fundamentally wrong to say "she ended up with the nerd". No, she was with the nerd the last time you saw her. For all you know, 6 months later she finally got sick and tired of him, knuckled down at university and married a surgeon.
That's what happens if you treat characters in this fashion, as having a life beyond the realms of the story you see them in.
Asking writers to provide you with the final life story of every significant character is asking them the impossible. To do so would require an ever-growing list of spin-off shows or for every show to be an ensemble piece. Doctor Who is clearly not an ensemble piece. It has a lead. It has some ongoing secondary characters, most of whom eventually leave the narrative thread.
In fact, fan fiction thrives on the fact that there are all sorts of gaps available to fill in. There's Sally Sparrow fan fiction - I just checked. The reason it can exist is that Sally's future is not defined to the extent that some of you seem to be claiming.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
That's what happens if you treat characters in this fashion, as having a life beyond the realms of the story you see them in.
Wow.
OK. I said upthread I think I was going to have to agree to disagree with you and let you have the last words on the sexism thing, and on this point, I think that goes at least triple here.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
Elsewhere I've come across criticism of what was deemed to be stalking by Eleven of Clara.
Another issue is the way in which the Doctor is treated. Ten's arse was molested by a woman in "The end of time". One episode (can't remember which, in one of his first episodes) saw Amy forcing herself upon Eleven. Didn't Eleven get unwanted attentions in "The day of the Doctor"? This series has seen Clara give a right clout to (for want of a better word) Twelve.
While mistreatment happens to male and female sexes in the show's history, the mistreatment of the Doctor in the version doesn't appear to find attention in the show itself, even the Doctor hasn't spoke out against it.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I agree with you about the ending, though. The ending is weak. Sally ends up running the DVD shop with her brother's best friend? Really? That's the summit of her ambitions? She could have done so much better... and I'm not talking about the boyfriend's looks here.
That's why I liked Martha (even though she couldn't act); medical student with some gumption. Leaving school with a handful of GCSEs and hanging about practising gymnastics until the Doctor turns up to whisk you away on an adventure is not a good life plan (can you tell I didn't like Rose?)
Whilst I agree with you about the sexism issue, as someone from a working class background who left school with a handful of o'levels I have to disagree with this. Having a good life plan does not have to mean leading an academic or professional life and society would be somewhat stuffed without the shop workers. I did become an academic despite my background but most of my family are quite happy and fulfilled having not written an essay since they left school.
And for all we know Sally might be studying part time whilst working, just as I did ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Dog Activity Monitor
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Elsewhere I've come across criticism of what was deemed to be stalking by Eleven of Clara.
The first five minutes or so of Rings of Akhaten are creepy as hell. No lie.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
This talk of Capaldi's accent is interesting to me as a Brit; it's not just that I have no difficulty understanding him, but I hardly notice he's got one; it's a very mild Scots; almost RP compared to what you'd hear on the streets of Glasgow.
He's certainly no Rab C Nesbitt, a series which might as well be in a foreign language for all I understood. I wouldn't call it mild Scots, though - that would be the sort of "regional accent" you find in BBC newsreaders/presenters, where it's mostly been trained out of them, leaving just enough of an accent to count towards the quota. Mild Scots would be nearer to his very English civil servant in Torchwood:CoE. But yes, any problem understanding him is more likely to be down to gabbling or intrusive music.
I'm sure the possible significance of colours has been commented on - people named after colours is fairly odd, whether or not you count Will Scarlet, and patterns like that are rarely coincidence. Leaving aside the possibility that this is leading up to a game of intergalactic snooker (as the Daleks already tried something similar previously, so it would be another stolen/adapted story), I'm idly musing whether the significance of soldiers called Blue and Pink is the fact that Blue is the woman and Pink the man. An inversion of the norm/custom/stereotype? Probably nothing in it, but I'll mention it just in case.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Heavenly Anarchist: quote:
Whilst I agree with you about the sexism issue, as someone from a working class background who left school with a handful of o'levels I have to disagree with this. Having a good life plan does not have to mean leading an academic or professional life and society would be somewhat stuffed without the shop workers. I did become an academic despite my background but most of my family are quite happy and fulfilled having not written an essay since they left school.
And for all we know Sally might be studying part time whilst working, just as I did.
And me (two professional qualifications acquired whilst studying part-time). And come to think of it, my sister left school with four 'O' levels (showing our age here) and is now more highly qualified than I am (BSc, MBA).
Orfeo's right too. I suppose what got up my nose was the fact that *I* would hate to work in a DVD shop (and she doesn't just work there, she is joint owner, suggesting a more long-term commitment than some people are implying). But I am describing my own emotional reaction to 'Blink' here - it doesn't have to be logical ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
And I REALLY don't like Rose. Although perhaps if I met her in real life and wasn't forced to sit through all the sickly sentimental claptrap about her relationship with the Doctor, I might find her quite entertaining.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
And I REALLY don't like Rose. Although perhaps if I met her in real life and wasn't forced to sit through all the sickly sentimental claptrap about her relationship with the Doctor, I might find her quite entertaining.
![[Smile]](smile.gif) what about Donna? A similar background and as common as muck but her moral compass was usually spot on and she showed great strength of character. Of course, her advantage was that there was never anything romantic between her and the Doctor; she was quite a relief as a companion.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Yes, I liked Donna! She reminded me of one of my operatic friends (who says opera isn't for the working classes?)
[ 16. September 2014, 13:16: Message edited by: Jane R ]
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